It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
^ Back to Top
The MI6 Community is unofficial and in no way associated or linked with EON Productions, MGM, Sony Pictures, Activision or Ian Fleming Publications. Any views expressed on this website are of the individual members and do not necessarily reflect those of the Community owners. Any video or images displayed in topics on MI6 Community are embedded by users from third party sites and as such MI6 Community and its owners take no responsibility for this material.
James Bond News • James Bond Articles • James Bond Magazine
Comments
So how committed to democracy are you?
Or does democracy mean never changing your mind?
Obviosly, GE are held more often but the elected government often out policies and actions that cannopt be reversed simply by electing a new governement in 4 years time. If you close down the mining indistry and commision/build Nuclear power plants, how do you reverse that? For all his faults, I never heard Scargill claim that the electorate were not educated enough regarding the general election , therefore, the result does not stand. That would have been greeted with outrage. And yet, this claim has been made regularly since we voted to leave.
There is almost zero interest, in a "peoples vote" for an Independent Scotalnd or Wales. All the same issues apply concerning giving the voters the right to change their minds, etc etc. Why is that? Imagine if the result had gone the other way. "Leave the UK" won by 2% and we were currently in a real mess trying to work out how Scoltand would leave. All the same arguments would come out. Not because it was better for democracy but because the voters had voted for somthing that really tested the consitution and those who should be managing the situation.
Commitment to democracy is not measured by how many times you vote (on that basis, lets have a third "this really is the peoples vote" or a fourth. ) but by how commited the nation is to stand by the result of the actual "peoples vote". It was, after all, people who voted to leave.
One last point: we are only talking about 3% of the vote. All this stuff that remainers come out with (I wont repeat all of the arguments ) concerning sweeping generalisations about those who voted to leave and yet, with a 3 % swing to remain, everything would be fine. The electorate is educated, the lies did not matter, lets forget that bus.
The nation is almost equally split on this issue but one result seems to be unacceptable and one outcome is fine. Does anyone genuinely thing that if remain had won by 2%, a second vote would even be discussed? Of course not. We would have Cameron claiming victory, May would still be Home Sec and the 48% who voted to leave wouild just accept the result. Can you imagine how the media would have ripped into Farage if he had come up with the same arguments to try to get a "peoples vote"? He would have been a laughing stock
But instead, at the moment vast swathes of business, the education sector, health, agriculture and hospitality (basically anyone who runs anything throughout the whole country) can see we're standing on the edge of a precipice and wondering why on earth we are doing this to ourselves, especially when we could simply say - "well that wasn't a very good decision was it - let's give it a bit more thought before we jump."
If you make the right decision you usually instinctively know that pretty soon and just get on with things. If you make a stupid or bad decision, this also often becomes apparent pretty quickly and as individuals we can seek to change our minds or undo the damage. Why can't a country do the same? Not that it will of course. The breaks have failed and the UK bus is hurtling down the hill towards a glorious, cinematic car crash.
This is the perfect oxymoron that many Remainers have created. There would be no need to have a second vote if the first vote was correct. But the first vote was wrong, so we do need a second vote.
Remainers opinions have no greater value than leavers opinions. Just because someone perceives staying as sensible does not, in itself, justify overiding the opininsd of majority. They have a different opion.
All of these arguments and points were made before Brexit and and majorty chose to let the postives of leaving (as they saw them) outweigh the negatives. And lets not forget that Remainers had the massive advantage of big business and institutions lobbying for remain. The Bank of England, the CBI, etc etc almost daily were coming out with press conferences, research, reports on how leaving the EU would have a negative impact on the economy. For what ever reason, many voters chose to ignore the "experts" and they every right to do so. tt's not as if these are new factors that have only come to light after the vote. Voters had all of the facts available to them.
Genuine democracy is about resepecting the vote rather than seeking to overturn the vote by claiming that the voters were not sensible. "Lets give it a bit more thought" - classic stuff. How much thought is enough? Who is the "thought arbiter?"
Perhaps if the second vote is to leave, we should give it some more thought and vote for a third time. By defintion, if they vote leave, they have not thought enough. If they vote remain, then, yes, they have thought enouigh. Perhaps there shold be a warning on the ballot paper "Have you really thought about this?". Perhaps if we just keep thinking and thinking, remainers may get the result they want. To imply that voters did not think enough and , therefore, it was the thoughtful voters who opted for remain is, unfortunately, just patronising.
Only a fraction of remainers are calling for a second vote but they seem to be doing a great job of controlling the agenda at the moment. And I think they may pull it off.
Anybody is allowed to utter stupid opinions as they know so well in the UK, they have Boris and that Rees Mogg fella to prove it.
You forget Nigel Farage, the king of stupid opinions in the UK.
Business as usual then?
Funny I always thought genuine democracy was 100% about overturning the last vote and arguing the opposing view.
What you're advocating is dictatorship of the proletariat.
Any source for this defintion? Any legal or historical precedent for how democracy is based on overturning the will of the majority of voters? Whats the point of having a vote if you know its going to be overturned? Our whole social infrastructure is based on the wishes of the majority when making decision and then respecting that decision. Social clubs, school governers, unions, shareholders meetings, local council meetings, politcal parties etc etc. All based on making decisions based on the will of the majority.
How would any of these institutions function (and our wider society) if, everytime they had a vote, it was then overturned? It shows how desperate remainers are when they choose to ignore the basic principles that so many other countries around the World have been envious of and many have copied.
And so we have a fair vote where there was a clear concensus of the rules before the vote. There was a clear majority (small but clear) by the voters and now, democracy is not about carrying out the wishes of the majority. Democracy is about overturning the vote!
Remarkable stuff IMHO.
PS
Anyone see May's speech? People will have different opinions but I almost threw up when I saw the "Dancing Queen" sequence.
In the words of Andew Sheperd "We've got serious problems and we need serious people."
People on both sides realise these are critical times for the nation and we need strong, serious leadership. There is so much at stake. So, in response to ths, May thinks it's appropriate to come out on stage dancing!!. Imagine our reaction if Trump or Macron had done this.
He is clearly Euro-phobic without any clear view upon the future. And he lacks understanding of the EU as so often, he must have forgotten the election for the European parliament and how it works.
Anytime I hear people like this their arguments are not sound even if they appear so.
There is one thing I agree on, please end the talks and go for a hard Brexit, Europe will manage and we can finally aim our attention to other more important matters. Europe matters the UK clearly doesn't.
Watch the video and learn how to become an expert.
You're not suggesting that the utterly shambolic Ed Miliband would have been any better as PM than Cameron was surely?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/britain-has-reached-a-new-worst-case-scenario-on-brexit/2018/11/15/634d0aa6-e8f8-11e8-b8dc-66cca409c180_story.html?utm_term=.f3d832ebc321
from the article:
What happens next is unknown even to the participants. The Brexit purists are threatening to topple the prime minister. But installing a new leader involves a protracted two-stage process: The parliamentary caucus of the ruling Conservative Party must come up with a short list of two candidates, then rank-and-file Conservatives must vote on them. Meanwhile, time is running short. Britain will crash out of the E.U. in March unless it can ratify a divorce treaty before then.
Whether or not it gets a new leader, the Conservative Party faces four options. The first is to push the prime minister’s deal through Parliament, but for now it seems to lack the votes for that. The second is to try to break the logjam by calling an election, but this would pose a risk that the Labour Party, now firmly rooted on the far left, would take power, so the Conservatives are unlikely to go there. The third option is to leave the E.U. without a deal. But this would risk such chaos — empty shelves in supermarkets, 20-mile traffic jams at new border checks — that most Conservatives won’t want that, either.
The fourth option is a new referendum. This would be cumbersome to organize and uncertain in its outcome, but at least it might deliver a sense of closure for the nation. The parliamentary process has generated a compromise that is pleasing to no one. If it is implemented, Brexiters will spin a myth that they were betrayed by bureaucrats and Eurocrats and the establishment writ large: Their populism will grow even more poisonous. A second vote would give the Leave camp an opportunity to vote for a cleaner break with the E.U., even if it came at the expense of Ireland. It would also give Remainers a chance to make the argument for solving the whole Brexit problem by staying in the E.U. Then the nightmare would be over.
Thats four lousy options for May right there. This is a situation they should never have got into without lots of thought and planning ahead of doing it.
Once again, those who predicted that Brexit, in its current form, would not be a good thing, are proven correct.
As an act of national stupidity and self harm this is unparalleled in modern history.
The WW2 generation took us into the EU and their spoilt brat baby boomer kids took us out. Sad and pathetic.
Very well said, @Getafix.
Brexit is the result of tribal behaviour in a world where one can't win a thing with that.
Good to know that hating most people and calling them idiots and imbeciles is approved here.
I'm sure we can assume that @Getafix is speaking in the most general of terms and not that he's specifically addressing his irritation to anyone of our members. I read his post as the proverbial fist on the table, not as an unfortunate "you and you and oh, you too!" accusation aimed at folks here. As such, nothing as such was "approved" here. If one were to rewind the entire thread and start from the top, it would become obvious that there's a lot of political frustration to be found on all sides. Everyone gets the chance to voice them. I think it is important to distinguish the usual hyperbole and "I'm not going to mince words" attitude from personal attacks on members of this forum.
If it bothers people that @Getafix has used those words, please flag and we'll politely request that he edits his post. Knowing @Getafix, I'm sure he wouldn't mind.
Don't sell the other side short, they aren't lacking of slimy, lying, backstabbing Remoaners. Let's be honest, they are all the same underneath. Left, right, doesn't matter, they will say whatever their acolytes want to hear, and will turn on a penny when it suits them.
I don't think the current left has anyone to equal those two, if you want either of those two to direct Brexit you must be one of the top 1%. or just a total deluded fool.
If you think toad of toad hall and Lord Snooty have got your best interests at heart I supsect you aren't too bright or are so wrapped up in being a leaver you'll accept any far right lunacy that is offered.
Whoa, ouch. What's this, the Theresa May fun club? Ha ha, good luck with that. Well... if you want to assume, that's on you, but I didn't say either of them should succeed May. What I am getting at, is that is should be someone that voted Brexit. Would that really be a radical idea? Whether they too could be trusted to carry it out, is another matter.
"far right lunacy"
I might be the one assuming now, but just in case you are going where I think you are going with that, I haven't been brain washed by the right, or left for that matter. I might be right of Ghandi, but I am not to the right.
The leaflet didn't state "Subject to Parliament's vote, the government will implement what you decide."
So we all voted in the belief the referendum result would be binding - be it remain or leave - but 17 months later we end up with Parliament deciding if May's deal will be passed or not.... and as the majority of MPs don't want May's deal and don't want a "no deal" exit it's clear that the public were duped. I personally doubt we will leave on March 29th 2019. If Parliament can stop a no deal exit then Brexit won't happen. Technically we're not leaving on March 29th 2019 despite what Mrs May has said. The UK will be subject to all existing EU laws until December 2020 - the so-called transition period (which was never mentioned before we voted!).
We've gone from the "government will implement what you decide" to "Parliament will decide and even if we do leave we're not leaving until 2020 and the EU can decide how long any backstop remains!"
I am a leaver but a part of me wishes the whole saga just ended. Let's just stay in the EU and get on with our lives! Brexit has become a farce. One 'solution' (!) might be the UK agrees to stay in the EU but pays less contribution - or we are no longer part of the European Court of Justice. If May went back to the EU and said "Parliament can't decide to leave or remain so we'll remain but you must give us some major concessions" - perhaps that will please some of the leavers? If we remained in the EU but they agreed to major compromise, that could please most/some people. Not an ideal scenario but it's better than a fudge Brexit.
I find the Tories the most destructive element this country has ever known, they never wanted the NHS and are doing their best to dismantle it despite saying they have protected it.
Whereas the left might well have their villains at the moment like Margaret Hodge and Chukka Umma no one apart from Blair competes with those 2. Johnson and The Mogg are the best advert for showing that people of privilege should never be MP's.
The idea that toffee nosed elites with no real idea about the reality of life should dictate our future should be enough for any normal person in the street to be worried.
Also Mogg has shown he doesn't care about the Good Friday Agreement and is more bothered getting his withdrawal from Europe, the fact that Northern Ireland and Scotland were mainly remain yet England's small majority meant we just said we are leaving.
No thought about the border matter and the issues that would cause.
They are only out for themselves and their interests, May hasn't a clue but if it comes to choosing whether it's her or them, I'll take Mayhem any day of the week.
Voting Brexit was utter lunacy as no one had a plan in place and rather than calling us all remoaners it's time to admit that this should have been dealt differently as none of you Brexiters have come up with a plan for how this is going to be good for country as a whole.
Cameron will quite rightly go down as one of the worst Prime Ministers this country as ever know, he was so sure remain would win that when it didn't he cowardly quit and left an unholy mess and a party divided to deal with it.
May as much as I don't like her always had an impossible job which why Davy boy high tailed it the very next day. He knew the divided state the party was in and also knew the headache he'd have despite saying he'd stay and respect whatever result.
Theresa definitely comes across incompetent and weak but she has both factions pulling at her to please that whatever happens that party will never be united, they are broken beyond belief. We are looking a laughing stock on the world stage.
Although hey we are mighty Great Britain and don't care what everyone thinks, our pig headed belief we are still a mighty nation when we are nowhere as significant as we used to be. Our influence on the worlds stage has eroded considerably.
It's just it's democracy so put up or shut up, that's all I ever hear.
All those elites including that odious Farage are looking after themselves, even is so called Fishing argument is him protecting the select few families that own the fishing rights and certainly not about protecting the people who actually have to go out there and do the work.
If you want the country turned into a Tax exile for the rich because that is what will happen if the Tory Brexiters or Farage control it. Having a Brexiter in charge would be a very bad idea indeed, so wanting that lot negotiating Brexit is far right lunacy in my book.
Having those 2 in charge would be a lunatic as having Trump in the White House unless you think that has worked out well for the rest of the world? Mogg is already evading tax and wants to continue without being stopped. Johnson is so wanting to emulate his hero Churchill that he so desperately wants to be PM, they are both narcissistic beyond belief.
They want out as they know new laws are coming in from the EU about evading tax next year, this how they are motivated. If May is overthrown it will be those 2 in control whether it be out front or behind the side-lines.
Although some that voted leave are so wrapped up the idea, they voted to leave they'll accept any type of lunacy to justify they were right in their choice. Also, a Brexiter in charge would divide the country even more.
The last thing I wanted was to be proved right on this choice because it's far too big a deal for me to say I told you so but on the evidence so far all it's done has caused divisions. Bought about the rise of the far right with the likes of Sean Yaxley Lennon (his real name not that working-class sounding Tommy Robinson).
Also, if you think this is left propaganda why only last weekend when it was the 100th anniversary of the end of World War 1 and people think it's acceptable to be doing Nazi salutes in this country. The so call love of their country they embracing the kind of thing that thousands laid down their lives down to prevent becoming a reality.
The nationalistic impulse has bought to the surface so very ugly views that fill me and others with dread.
Please explain to me where you think this is going to work out and will not be a huge detriment to this country where millions will suffer, I'm dying to hear what you Brexiters have to say?
The idea of Corbyn and Labour taking over sounds far more sensible but the one and only decent, plain speaking and principled politician this country has seen in decades has been so vilified by the press, biased BBC news, Newsnight etc. That working class people think elites like The Mogg and Johnson are a better choice.
If Corbyn was such a fool as he's made out to be there would be no reason to assassinate him like they do in the mainstream press. The BBC news wing is blatantly tory it's ridiculous. Practically all of them are dyed in the wool conservatives and have no problem showing it and lying about the opposition rather than delivering balanced views.
The way they reported on his appearance at Remembrance Day was disgusting, while the others cleared off, he stayed back to speak to the veterans and talk about the awful way they are treated after doing their duty for their country. Although the mainstream media never reports this, they just go on about his coat and the size of his poppy. When a hypocritical group of arms dealers and war criminals (May, Blair & Cameron) have nothing said about them. Although you probably think Corbyn is one of these so-called villains no doubt?
The thing is this is nothing new for him, he does it every year, he doesn't turn on this kind of thing to make him look good, he does it because he feels compelled to do it but the media concentrate on the most ridiculous aspect that is totally irrelevant in the big scheme of things and that becomes the headline while real news gets ignored.
I'm sick and tired of hearing how dangerous he is, yes dangerous to the elites and the bankers, the man wants fairness and a balanced society something none of your Brexiters care about one bit. No he is not an communist, a Marxist or a an anti-Semite, he just supports Palestine, the word anti-Semite just means anyone that opposes Israel's treatment of Palestinians these days and Netanyahu is a war criminal like Blair and Bush.
Blairites are nothing short of Tory lite, in fact Blair was tory PM in sheep’s clothing, Maggie's greatest triumph. Corbyn also offers Labour as an alternative more than Labour has been in years rather than the diet lite right version that Blair turned Labour into to get elected.
So yes, I'd rather have Corbyn in charge with Keir Starmer negotiating Brexit, nowhere the lunacy of having rich elites out for themselves wanting to turn the British Isles into a tax exile.
It's time we had a different kind of leadership and the end of the business men and elites pulling the strings. Corbyn offers that and that is why he's dangerous, not to the average working man in the street but the fat cats who have been convincing us the deprived and poor are the problem while they get richer and manipulate us all into doing their bidding.
I'll leave this here.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-labour-party-general-election-jeremy-corbyn-withdrawal-agreement-theresa-may-a8637586.html?fbclid=IwAR2d1lhVNWWLH30gZTHGowizFqCBGlf_nsiKiZNKZABzz3vYatrtXrxIYyA
I am a leaver too, unfortunately I think you are right and this is probably the best course now.
We will never get any bill through Parliament and it will just rumble on and on. I suspect May knows exactly what she is doing if truth be told. She knows her bill won't get through, and will continue to try and push unappealing deals until even the staunchest leaver throws their hands up and say "bugger it, we may as well remain" and then the majority (in Parliament) get the result they want.