The BREXIT Discussion Thread.

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  • edited February 2019 Posts: 3,566
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    That depends if you think he legitimately won the election or not. If yes, then it's the voters and their anti-immigrant isolationism. If no, then it's Russia/Assange. And it's complicated by Syria, which is both.

    Heaven forbid that he'd actually have won it on his own merits compared to the demerits of his opponents. I suppose the reason is that it's very hard to give credit where it is due to those whom many despise. It must just be human nature.

    That's not what I said. If he won on his own, then it was because the voters liked his immigration policy. If it was the Russians, it was the Russians.

    Those are the two options, yes. The jury's out on that one currently.

    It's pretty clear that he did not win at all. (A) Hillary got about 3 million more votes than Trump did. (B) The obsolete system that is the Electoral College is what handed the office to Trump, and (C) pay closer attention to the various investigations. Russian money, laundered through the NRA to the Republican party... Trump's money laundering for the Russian mob, stretching back decades... Paul Manafort's obvious lobbying on behalf of Russia while he was also serving as Trump's campaign chairman... It's all crashing down on his bloated orange carcass. Open your eyes and pass the popcorn.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    That depends if you think he legitimately won the election or not. If yes, then it's the voters and their anti-immigrant isolationism. If no, then it's Russia/Assange. And it's complicated by Syria, which is both.

    Heaven forbid that he'd actually have won it on his own merits compared to the demerits of his opponents. I suppose the reason is that it's very hard to give credit where it is due to those whom many despise. It must just be human nature.

    Trump didn't win it on his own merit, without cheating.

    As for Brexit, I can only hope and wish the very best for all my U.K. friends and everyone who will be affected by this (globally). It has the marks of a bad disaster, with terrible effects that will be worse than imagined and last for years. I personally hope it can be stopped and that the U.K. remains.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    That depends if you think he legitimately won the election or not. If yes, then it's the voters and their anti-immigrant isolationism. If no, then it's Russia/Assange. And it's complicated by Syria, which is both.

    Heaven forbid that he'd actually have won it on his own merits compared to the demerits of his opponents. I suppose the reason is that it's very hard to give credit where it is due to those whom many despise. It must just be human nature.

    Trump didn't win it on his own merit, without cheating.

    As for Brexit, I can only hope and wish the very best for all my U.K. friends and everyone who will be affected by this (globally). It has the marks of a bad disaster, with terrible effects that will be worse than imagined and last for years. I personally hope it can be stopped and that the U.K. remains.

    Thank you, @4EverBonded.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Seven MPs leave Labour Party in protest at Jeremy Corbyn's leadership

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47278902
  • edited February 2019 Posts: 11,425
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    But sovereignty from what? The EU's immigration policy, right? Code for...you know.

    I can't imagine people are arguing that sovereignty makes any financial sense for the UK, not with the geographic proximity and decades of trade policy with continental Europe.

    Sovereignty from the doctrine of the supremacy of EU law against that of the individual member state, of course. Immigration from the EU to the UK was not an issue for me, personally. Immigration from various locations will always go on in the global economy the UK is part of. Of course, improvements can be made to ensure we get immigrants who are badly needed in the economy, but that is a side issue. I cannot speak for others of course, but to me that has always seemed like a red herring in this debate. On the sovereignty issue, why not read the Factortame series of cases to see why I (and many others) really voted to Leave the EU:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_(Factortame_Ltd)_v_Secretary_of_State_for_Transport

    Sovereignty made financial sense for hundreds of years before we joined the EEC in 1973, as it then was. There was a time when the sun never set on the British Empire. Are we supposed to believe that the deal we have now with the EU is better than what we managed as a proud island nation all on our own? Don't make me laugh!

    You need to clarify what you mean by sovereignty. Every trade deal and international treaty in some ways barters sovereignty for what one side wants and the other side needs.. The EU is/was no different.

    When we strike that US-UK trade deal and Trump demands that we open up our markets to chlorinated chicken and privatise our health care so US firms can run it, that will also be a trade off in terms of sovereignty.

    If you don't understand this then I very much hope you were not old enough to vote in the referendum.

    I'm afraid I don't think even a majority of those who voted for Brexit had the slightest idea what they were voting for or what the implications would be.

    It is quite simply an act of the grossest stupidity and self harm perpetrated by the British electorate upon themselves. That's what happens when you short circuit representative democracy.

    The people we elect and pay to run the country know this but are too scared or depressed to tell the people that they're utterly wrong.
  • Posts: 12,526
    Seven MPs leave Labour Party in protest at Jeremy Corbyn's leadership

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47278902

    The plot thickens!!!
  • Posts: 19,339
    Corbyn has to go,he has no personality and is just a pointless individual,a poisonous s**t stirrer.
  • Posts: 12,526
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Corbyn has to go,he has no personality and is just a pointless individual,a poisonous s**t stirrer.

    He will be around certainly until the next general election barry007, whenever that may swing around?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 2019 Posts: 18,281
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Corbyn has to go,he has no personality and is just a pointless individual,a poisonous s**t stirrer.

    He will be around certainly until the next general election barry007, whenever that may swing around?

    Good, as that combined with the Labour defections today will increase the chances of a Conservative majority government being the result of such an election. Keeping Comrade Corbyn away from the keys of No. 10 should be the focus in the time ahead going into the next general election.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Corbyn has to go,he has no personality and is just a pointless individual,a poisonous s**t stirrer.

    He will be around certainly until the next general election barry007, whenever that may swing around?

    Good, as that combined with the Labour defections today will increase the chances of a Conservative majority government being the result of such an election. Keeping Comrade Corbyn away from the keys of No. 10 should be the focus in the time ahead going into the next general election.

    Yeah cos the Tories have been doing such a good job.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Getafix wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Corbyn has to go,he has no personality and is just a pointless individual,a poisonous s**t stirrer.

    He will be around certainly until the next general election barry007, whenever that may swing around?

    Good, as that combined with the Labour defections today will increase the chances of a Conservative majority government being the result of such an election. Keeping Comrade Corbyn away from the keys of No. 10 should be the focus in the time ahead going into the next general election.

    Yeah cos the Tories have been doing such a good job.

    Do you seriously think Corbyn's Labour would do any better job? They can't even agree on what constitutes anti-semitism, never mind think about running the country.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Corbyn has to go,he has no personality and is just a pointless individual,a poisonous s**t stirrer.

    He will be around certainly until the next general election barry007, whenever that may swing around?

    Good, as that combined with the Labour defections today will increase the chances of a Conservative majority government being the result of such an election. Keeping Comrade Corbyn away from the keys of No. 10 should be the focus in the time ahead going into the next general election.

    Yeah cos the Tories have been doing such a good job.

    Do you seriously think Corbyn's Labour would do any better job? They can't even agree on what constitutes anti-semitism, never mind think about running the country.

    That doesn't even bear thinking about,my God.
  • Posts: 11,425
    What's disturbing is that as a country we tolerate these 2 pathetic excuses for political parties.

    What chance do we have of making a 'successful Brexit' (an oxymoron if there ever was one) with either party in power?

    We're doomed even before this benighted project sets sail.
  • Posts: 4,617
    We don't tolerate them, we vote them in!!
  • Posts: 19,339
    These politians are the worst I can remember,no personality between the lot of them.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    patb wrote: »
    We don't tolerate them, we vote them in!!

    And if they don't live up to their promises we can vote them out too. That's the good thing about democracy.
  • Posts: 4,044
    Can we vote them all out?
  • Posts: 19,339
    I think there is a rogue party of Tories and Labour MP's forming anyway,atm.
  • Posts: 12,526
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I think there is a rogue party of Tories and Labour MP's forming anyway,atm.

    As Mr White would say? We have people everywhere? ………..am I right?!!! Lol!
  • Posts: 19,339
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I think there is a rogue party of Tories and Labour MP's forming anyway,atm.

    As Mr White would say? We have people everywhere? ………..am I right?!!! Lol!

    If they are as efficient as Quantum then I might vote for them next time !!
  • edited February 2019 Posts: 1,661
    I think historians will look back on Brexit and Theresa May will not be remembered in a good light. It seems obvious she is running down the clock in the hope she can force Parliament to vote for her rejected deal rather than risk a no-deal exit. Someone mentioned on the radio (so I can't claim credit for this remark!) that leaders are supposed to lead and do their best not to let events beyond their control dictate their actions. A Prime Minister is supposed to take control. Theresa May appears to be doing the exact opposite.

    She's prepared to waste trips going to Brussels and chatting for an hour with the EU bigwigs then giving an interview where she comes out with the stock phrases about leaving the EU, then a week or two later she repeats it all again. It's very bizarre. She's giving the impression of doing something when she's doing nothing.

    I'm sure Margaret Thatcher or Tony Blair would have been more pro-active and come to a decision. I can't imagine they'd faff about for months. You don't have to like Thatcher or Blair but they did lead. It helps to lead when you're the PM, Mrs May! When/if Brexit happens she will go. She has said she won't lead the Conservatives into the next election. That's some small consolation!

  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    I blame Cameron. He didn't get what he wanted, so he threw his toys out of the pram and walked away.

    Now we have a staunch remainer trying to negotiate for something she doesn't believe in. Sounds like a recipe for disaster doesn't it?
  • Posts: 5,994
    Well, those who campaigned to leave didn't want the job afterwards. Yes, I'm looking at you, Boris ! But somebody had to do the job, and bite the bullet. In her place, I'm not sure any of us could have done better.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Very true. Brexit is a disaster and May's deal just underlines that.

    There is no 'good Brexit', just least worst options.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Why aren't people talking about Farage? He's one of the ultimate instigators here. Where is he now? He left with his tail between his legs.

    nigel-farage-010.jpg
  • edited February 2019 Posts: 11,425
    He has actually just formed a new party in anticipation of a second referendum.

    He's still there.

    A highly skilled communicator.

    I don't blame him in the sense he's been pretty open and actually looks and sounds like a second hand car salesman, so if people believed him and voted for him they deserve everything they're about to get - sorry all you workers at Honda, Vauxhall and Nissan who have already lost or are about to lose your jobs.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    How much credibility has he left?
  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    How much credibility has he left?

    His job was done in 2016, although he is still taking his seat in the EU parliament.
  • Posts: 5,994
    Yes, that's a paradox I never understood : why do people who are anti-European, like Farage or the Le Pen, want to become member of the European parliament ? Granted, they don't do much once they're there, but why join in the first place ? I fail to see the logic in that.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Amongst Leave voters (of which there are obviously many) I'd say he had lots. People liked his 'straight talking' shtick and dog whistle racism. It appeals to the underlying bigotry in many English people.

    Amongst the rest of the population he was always despised.

    That sums up the UK right now really. Totally divided between alternate visions of life on earth. One side of (mainly) old and not generally well educated people want to go back to an imagined 1950s past, and the other half wants to try and deal with planet earth as it exists in reality in 2019.

    Sadly I feel the former are about to ensure the latter don't get a look in.

    Britain is about to enter a long period of relative decline and internal conflict (non violent hopefully) as even if we leave with May's deal, that's just the start of the real substantive negotiations on our future relationship with the EU and our attempts to replace the 60+ free trade deals we currently have as members of the EU with the rest of the world.
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