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"Politics makes liars of us all." Joe Devlin, Columbo: The Conspirators (1978).
I fear there would be no MP left in Parliament if not lying or spinning the facts were the criteria for choosing the next prime minister.
*Brings glass of bourbon to mouth.
"The lies stay the same."
*Drinks the bourbon, stands up, closes jacket and walks out.
Not one person can come up with a good reason to leave with no deal, look I voted to remain but I accept that we are leaving but with no deal, now that is insane.
Lying and spinning the facts in a favourable way are two completely different beasts. The latter makes sense and is long a habit in politics, which helps the negotiations you have to partake in anyway. Lying is for the misinformed 'fake'politicians who think they know better and who's own truth trumps everyone elses.
ˆThank you!
+1
In the end analysis, is it not all about being economical with the truth? Two sides of the one coin, I think.
You'll come up with anything to justify him because he's going to try to give you what you want.
I have to wonder about the principles and views of someone who thinks Johnson is a good thing.
Ah of course it's Brexit at all or any cost hey @Dragonpol, I voted for it so if the vile contemptible man is going to give me it, hey I'll forget about all he's said and done.
You lot will sell your soul to leave the EU.
Well maybe if Theresa May had delivered on what she promised in her 2017 manifesto and on becoming prime minister in July 2016 we wouldn't have needed Johnson as prime minister. So blame her and not me. There's no need to make it personal, either.
Yet you are making excuses for accepting him because he'll give you Brexit, I'm sorry anyone that thinks Johnson is a good thing because they want their Brexit has no principles.
Anyway you think May should have left with no deal is that what you are saying?
The EU made it plain there was no room for manouvre and you think Johnson is going to change this?
Though I imagine you are quite happy to leave with no deal just to get your precious Brexit.
You've tried to answer your questions for me there but I'll tell you what I actually think as that's easier.
No, I actually wouldn't be happy with 'no deal' as I think it would be especially bad for Northern Ireland as well as the rest of the country. If we leave with 'no deal' that is just kicking the can further down the road. Johnson has said he is averse to doing this, saying his party will "kick the bucket" if they do that. I would much rather have an agreement on leaving the EU, one that replaces the Irish Backstop with a better and more workable proposal.
Leaving with 'no deal' is a misnomer anyhow as deals would still need to be done at some point in the future on myriad matters. A lot of deals have already been done in fact in preparation for a possible 'no deal' scenario but that doesn't seem to be the path Johnson is going to take. They still have to prepare for 'no deal' however and it is a bargaining chip in the negotiations for a new deal.
That was my point above. According to the leader of the unionist party I'm member of here in Northern Ireland it would mean negotiating a lot of little deals down the line on various matters that in sum total would add up to a bad deal. So in that regard 'no deal' would equal a bad deal, and not be better than it as some still try to say. That can't be good for anyone or any sector of the economy in the UK so I would much rather we had a deal before we left than went out without a deal.
However leaving 'no deal' on the table remains a useful bargaining chip to show the EU negotiators that the UK is serious about walking away without a deal if they don't compromise with us the way we have with them. It's time they gave some more ground to the UK, especially on the discredited Irish backstop arrangements.
As I said above, no. There's beeing economical with the truth, and there's lying, which is at best ignoring and worst denying the truth. There's often a fine line for politicians who seek the extremes, or want to get the most out of a compromise, but there's a distinct difderence. 10 years ago a lying politician would see his/her career ended immediately. The fact that politicians are lying and getting away with it is a direct danger to demoxracy.
Why do you think eu negotiators aren't convinced the UK would leave? You really think the continent is not ready to see the UK burn? Politicians in Brussels would love nothing more than a uk going out hard and ending in a recession. It would stop tendencies in the Netherlands and France from going the same way and getting rid of the uk, the one country that always got all the exceptions, isn't too bad for those who are working towards a united europe. This is not my wish nor political preference, just an assessment of the current situation. Boris Johnson is going to get stonewalled in Brussels just as much as may was. I have seen nothing in his politics or behaviour that gave me an incling he might fare better.
Well, I don't wish to get into semantics with you on this but can we at least agree that neither have much to do with honesty? Can we further agree that honesty in high politics as well as in other walks of life is to be held up as the ideal and as the best policy possible in representative politics? I hope we can as I have no desire to discuss this any further.
I'm viewing it from an academic and experienced point of view. Do I think honesty is the preferred way to go? Definately. So in a way yes, I'd agree. Is it possible in politics? I'm hopefully looking towards the new president of Ukraine for a confirmation in that regard. Fingers crossed.
That's true. So is Brasil and Greece and so many other countries right now. The world is turning right and, as such, wrong. It's a disgrace. The world is in the hands of these guys now.
What as the world come to? Who are we as a species to elect amongst us people like this to lead us in the 21st century? Hope and positivism get scarcer by the day.
Don't forget him. He will be the next Prime Minister, since the League is now the biggest party in Italy by quite a fair margin, currently being able to win the next elections without Berlusconi. He already rules the Ministry of Internal affairs.
^ I know you're trying to fill out the numbers of the nasty Right but isn't including a picture of the Communist North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un going a bit far? I'm sure he wouldn't appreciate being lumped in with politicians of the Right. As such, he's not a very good example to make your point.
I was not trying to fill out the numbers of the nasty Right, as you put it.
Right now, I don't care about political affiliations. There are shameful people right and left. And even more shameful at the so called centre. The centre that inevitably makes people slide into left and right extremes.
So no, I was talking about rulers, not political affiliations.
Well, fair enough. There are certainly plenty more examples of regimes on the Left that could be included, not least of which is Communist China and its appalling record on human rights and free speech. Just look at what is going on in Hong Kong right now as a case in point.
Granted, politics of Right and Left aside it makes little practical difference to those ordinary citizens who suffer at the hands of dictators. I don't however count President Trump or Prime Minister Johnson as dictators. That is a false equivalence when there are much better examples that could be used instead. It needs to be called out for what it is.
Again, the same way I was not talking about political affiliation, I was not talking about dictators. I was talking about rulers. ruler (/ˈruːlə/), noun; a person exercising government or dominion; synonyms: leader, sovereign, monarch, potentate, crowned head, head of state, ...
Those are the shameful ones, nowadays. Being those elected, self proclaimed or descendant. All a shameful depiction of the species at this point in time. Trump and Johnson very much included.
But hey, people get what they want. And the truth is, all of the above are a very truthful representation of the people nowadays. People are dumber, meaner, in a word, worse. So are their rulers. It's a simple analysis. No need to complicate it.
So, you are saying that in the end people get the type of leaders they deserve? That there is an inevitability to it? I guess that fits. They also get what they vote for too. As Alan Partridge once said about having to include a candidate called Lt Colonel Kojak Slaphead III of the Bald Brummies Against The Big Footed Conspiracy Party in a political discussion around an upcoming by-election, "He's paid his deposit. That's democracy."
Well, I'm glad we understood each other in this thread then.
Of course, why not? Haven't we been understanding each other in other threads? ;)
Yes, we certainly have, @Univex. It's just the reasoning behind my posts seems to have been lost or misunderstood by some members in this thread. No doubt that was my own fault for not being clear enough!