The BREXIT Discussion Thread.

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  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043

    DarthDimi wrote: »
    The pound sank even further today due to Brexit fears. Looks like the pessimistic forecast from 2016 is coming true.

    Maybe a shortterm outlook isn't always for the best. We didn't just take this decision for ourselves, but generations hence. We may have to endure hardships, but if we come out the other end stronger as a result, then its worth it.

    Spoken like a true Brexiteer.

  • Posts: 2,436
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    The pound sank even further today due to Brexit fears. Looks like the pessimistic forecast from 2016 is coming true.

    Maybe a shortterm outlook isn't always for the best. We didn't just take this decision for ourselves, but generations hence. We may have to endure hardships, but if we come out the other end stronger as a result, then its worth it.

    The real issue is that we shouldn't have joined in the first place.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    The pound sank even further today due to Brexit fears. Looks like the pessimistic forecast from 2016 is coming true.

    Maybe a shortterm outlook isn't always for the best. We didn't just take this decision for ourselves, but generations hence. We may have to endure hardships, but if we come out the other end stronger as a result, then its worth it.

    Unfortunately, in an ever-changing world like ours, new variables are introduced on a daily basis. Brexit, like almost every other decision made, can have pretty much any outcome, depending on what happens tomorrow, and next year, and a decade from now, ... A short-term outlook is the only thing you've got.

    But one thing that is almost guaranteed, is that a splintered Europe will be eaten alive by the giants. Those coming generations may not end up appreciating what you've done "for them" when the geopolitical landscape shows that small, independent countries are left to wither.

    And while I admire your selfless motivation, Brexit wasn't about looking ahead, but about looking backwards. Brexiters long for the glorious days of old and many just cannot accept that those old days are gone. By pulling the country out of the European Union, they hope to put a stop to migration and pay less tax money. Well, I just don't think it works that way.

    But let's say you did it for the next couple of generations. If you cared less about yourself than about your (grand)children, surely common sense would dictate that you remain in the EU, help to make it stronger and better, rather than overnight destroy the very thing many of your parents and grandparents worked hard to achieve. Surely we can all agree that when countries team up, partner up, unite, things are better. The allied forces defeated the greatest evil of the 20th Century, the EU helped to drag Ireland out of poverty, ... What is the "U"K going to do as an island on its own, with potentially even more fractures in the future?

    Lastly, how short-term is that pound sinking thing? Since the referendum, more than three years ago, the pound has sunken, then climbed up a little, then sunken further. Three years... that's starting to be felt, right?

    Just so we are clear, I'm not angry because I'm Belgian; I'm angry because I'm an Anglophile. I'm angry because I wish the best for the country, but I'm seeing it make some very poor decisions.
    Gerard wrote: »
    An old joke says that, when a country put an adjective in its name, it means exactly the opposite, because, if that country was already that adjective, it wouldn't need to advertise it. For example, countries with "Democratic" in their name aren't really democracies (having lived for two years in West Berlin, I can say that it's true). So it follows that neither the USA nor the UK are really united, and that Great Britain isn't really all that great.

    There might actually be a lot of truth in what @Gerard wrote here.
  • Posts: 12,526
    If a Referendum on the deal if their ever was one was rejected? Or the original one was overturned? Do people really think it will go away?

    I think both sides have to bite the bullet and accept neither side it seems is going to back down? So start planning for what's to come on November 1st. Then new trade talks from their as what is happening now is clearly a waste of time all round.

    At least the decision of the question asked to the 4 countries of the UK back in 2016 will have been carried out. If the UK breaks up as a consequence then that is what happens? But lets face it, the strings of the EU are firmly in the hands of the Economic powerhouse that is Germany and France to a degree.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Anyone who claims the pro Brexit movement was based on sound, long term strategies are deluded. It was driven by emotional slogans, relics of old imperialistic values, and forced through by votes from misinformed people who most of them had no idea what the thing was about to begin with...
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    jobo wrote: »
    Anyone who claims the pro Brexit movement was based on sound, long term strategies are deluded. It was driven by emotional slogans, relics of old imperialistic values, and forced through by votes from misinformed people who most of them had no idea what the thing was about to begin with...

    Surely this applies to all elections and referendums, and not just this one?
  • Posts: 2,436
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    The pound sank even further today due to Brexit fears. Looks like the pessimistic forecast from 2016 is coming true.

    Maybe a shortterm outlook isn't always for the best. We didn't just take this decision for ourselves, but generations hence. We may have to endure hardships, but if we come out the other end stronger as a result, then its worth it.

    Unfortunately, in an ever-changing world like ours, new variables are introduced on a daily basis. Brexit, like almost every other decision made, can have pretty much any outcome, depending on what happens tomorrow, and next year, and a decade from now, ... A short-term outlook is the only thing you've got.

    But one thing that is almost guaranteed, is that a splintered Europe will be eaten alive by the giants. Those coming generations may not end up appreciating what you've done "for them" when the geopolitical landscape shows that small, independent countries are left to wither.

    And while I admire your selfless motivation, Brexit wasn't about looking ahead, but about looking backwards. Brexiters long for the glorious days of old and many just cannot accept that those old days are gone. By pulling the country out of the European Union, they hope to put a stop to migration and pay less tax money. Well, I just don't think it works that way.

    But let's say you did it for the next couple of generations. If you cared less about yourself than about your (grand)children, surely common sense would dictate that you remain in the EU, help to make it stronger and better, rather than overnight destroy the very thing many of your parents and grandparents worked hard to achieve. Surely we can all agree that when countries team up, partner up, unite, things are better. The allied forces defeated the greatest evil of the 20th Century, the EU helped to drag Ireland out of poverty, ... What is the "U"K going to do as an island on its own, with potentially even more fractures in the future?

    Lastly, how short-term is that pound sinking thing? Since the referendum, more than three years ago, the pound has sunken, then climbed up a little, then sunken further. Three years... that's starting to be felt, right?

    Just so we are clear, I'm not angry because I'm Belgian; I'm angry because I'm an Anglophile. I'm angry because I wish the best for the country, but I'm seeing it make some very poor decisions.
    Gerard wrote: »
    An old joke says that, when a country put an adjective in its name, it means exactly the opposite, because, if that country was already that adjective, it wouldn't need to advertise it. For example, countries with "Democratic" in their name aren't really democracies (having lived for two years in West Berlin, I can say that it's true). So it follows that neither the USA nor the UK are really united, and that Great Britain isn't really all that great.

    There might actually be a lot of truth in what @Gerard wrote here.

    Being out of the EU doesn't mean that you don't work with other countries.
  • Posts: 2,436
    jobo wrote: »
    Anyone who claims the pro Brexit movement was based on sound, long term strategies are deluded. It was driven by emotional slogans, relics of old imperialistic values, and forced through by votes from misinformed people who most of them had no idea what the thing was about to begin with...

    You could say the same about the Remain movement.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    jobo wrote: »
    Anyone who claims the pro Brexit movement was based on sound, long term strategies are deluded. It was driven by emotional slogans, relics of old imperialistic values, and forced through by votes from misinformed people who most of them had no idea what the thing was about to begin with...

    You could say the same about the Remain movement.

    Well, yes, that's the problem. In the end, even I, a staunch anti-Brexiter, must admit that it was a duel between the pot and the kettle, that both had solid arguments and that both excelled at selling them in the weakest way imaginable. Fear was the instrument of choice for both, as was pride. I can, at the very least, concede that the situation isn't black-and-white, whereby one side made a "perfect" choice and the other side did not.

    In the end, I respect people's votes. Some Brexiters here are good friends of mine and I'll be damned if politics get in the way of that. ;-)
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    The true reason for brexit has nothing to do with any of the aforementioned. It has everything to do with the lack of transparency and democracy in the eu. The British voters got the chance to say we've had enough of the taking, taking, but not solving our problems. Politicians can say what they want, but it's all to the perception of the people in the street, @darth I disagree that unification is better. I think it's the opposite. That doesn't mean we shouldn't work together, we should. But it was the 'nationalists' winning the war, not those who wanted Europe united under one government. And as a Belgian you know your country is the prime example of what happens if you put distinctly different cultures under one leadership. In times of unease, new leaders stand up, and usually its the bullies first.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    The fact is the UK was never that happy with being in the EU from the start. That attitude only grew overtime. They P---ed off the workers, such as fishermen and farmers with their crazy regulations. That was the last straw for many.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited July 2019 Posts: 24,183
    Correct, @CommanderRoss, which is why Belgium, at least IMO, is better off as a part of the EU than as something that stands on its own. The two major regions of my country are now both a part of a bigger whole and that works. (Like some family units are better preserved when they are among other families, but left to themselves, break down from internal struggles.) I really don't feel Belgian nor Flemish, I feel European.

    I take no pride in a flag or an anthem. I'm not going to cry over a lost soccer game or if Belgium doesn't win that boring-as-hell Eurosong contest. The only time I've ever felt like defending my country was when a certain president called it a "failed state" while I sincerely doubt he even knows that Brussels is the capital of Belgium and not the other way around. In any case, I still wouldn't want to see Belgium split apart. The French-speaking part of our country, which isn't where I live, would struggle tremendously when completely independent. Despite our difficult past and the insults we, the Flemish, had to endure from that French-speaking part, which actually drove some of my fellow Flemish in the arms of the Nazis (the enemy of my enemy and all that), a strong sense of solidarity is what motivates me to nurture neither grudge nor hatred.

    In fact, I'd rather Belgium would cease to exist in a different sense, namely that we all became mere regions of the United States Of Europe. Of course, as long as people keep caring about ridiculous things like cultural pride, native language and religion, none of this is going to happen. But I can dream. ;-) Either way, when foreigners ask me where I'm from, I say "Europe", and in my mind, that used to include the UK as well. But when Brexit became a theoretical fact, it felt for a moment like my fellow Europeans, the Brits, basically told me to go ef myself. I know that's not true. I know that Brexit wasn't a declaration of war or the outcome of a superiority complex. But we're going to need each other badly in the next couple of decades, I think, and as a unified Europe we may stand a better chance.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Well I have no doubt a unified Europe would help stick Belgium together, but personally I don't feel that it would help any other country the same way. I've traveled a lot and am married to a ukrainian beauty, and all that has done is shown me how Dutch I actually am, with all its up, but certainly also it's shortcomings. Brexit to my eyes is a direct result of that push to ignore about 2000 years of nation state development. And you can see that resentment is biggest in countries that've developed their independence relatively early (france, netherlands), and least in the ones that are relatively 'new' or more 'fabricated' (belgium, italy). And in the eastern part of Europe dinamycs are even more complicated as many have been occupied for 70+ years while yearning for independence. All in all, the differences are far too great for unification, and those 'combined values' are as strongly felt as you feel for your national anthem and flag. That all doesn't mean we shouldn't work together, we should. It's the inter dependancy that's kept the peace here for so long. But it asks for recognition of those locally felt values whilst working on our common grounds. For now the eu doesn't do that, it tries to impose a common nationality to groups of people who feel only regional loyalties, whilst imposing rules and taxes few see the benefit from in the street.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    @CommanderRoss
    I believe I'm inclined to agree with you. Thanks, man. ;)
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 1,661
    I fear everyone in British politics - certainly on the leave side - is missing a huge trick here or painfully naive. Gina Miller took the government to court for not allowing Parliament a vote on article 50 triggering the UK's decision to leave the EU. She won the case. Parliament had to vote on article 50 and Parliament has continued to vote on all matters Brexit (three times voting down the UK EU withdrawal deal and numerous pointless indicative votes!). Surely the opposite can be done? Nigel Farage or some rich leaver donor or the UK government take Parliament to court for preventing the referendum result. The costs of the legal challenge could be crowd funded anyway.

    Why hasn't anyone mentioned this? Nigel Farage has never mentioned this. Why? I don't get it. This is astonishing lack of vision by the leave campaign. If I were Johnson I would say "if Parliament prevents our leaving on October 31st, my government will instigate legal proceedings against Parliament on November 1st. We will let the Supreme Court - the highest court in the UK - decide who is right: Parliament or the people."

    This is the whole point of the judiciary - to settle legal disputes!
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Too many lies were sold to the public for the original vote to count honestly.
    It is sad, and horrific that Boris is in charge, and that this is proceeding.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Too many lies were sold to the public for the original vote to count honestly.
    It is sad, and horrific that Boris is in charge, and that this is proceeding.

    The sad honest truth of the whole thing is they never should have let us the public be given the decision on this full stop.

    It was too much of a complex issue to be resolved in a yes/no vote.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Good point. Especially a one time only, no matter what, vote.
    I mean, that defeats truth and clarity and what is best for a country.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Too many lies were sold to the public for the original vote to count honestly.
    It is sad, and horrific that Boris is in charge, and that this is proceeding.

    The sad honest truth of the whole thing is they never should have let us the public be given the decision on this full stop.

    It was too much of a complex issue to be resolved in a yes/no vote.

    I wholeheartedly disagree. The only real functioning democracy is Switserland, and over there they vote on everything. It's not the choice that's the basis of this mess, it's the execution. Don't forget: it was the conservative politicians that gave Hitler his power, not an overwealming majority (he never had one) of the Germans. No dictator ever one a majority vote without cheating.

    And the EU had it coming. It is an as undemocratic structure as can be. The parliament, the onlt directly chosen body, can't even initiate or propose changes. Hence the power lies in the hands of bureaucrats influenced by lobby groups, and career politicians who're not judged by what they do in the EU, but by what they do at home. And whatever they do, it's always behind closed doors.

    I can't blame the British public to be fed up with such an organisation, allthough I'd preferred it if they'd help work to change all that instead of to get out, but it's a fair choice.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    The Queen approves order to suspend UK Parliament from early September to 14 October - just before Brexit deadline.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49493632

    A no-deal Brexit is now becoming the only possible outcome.
  • edited August 2019 Posts: 5,994
    Our four-leggede friends could really be impacted by a No-Deal Brexit, and it could cause problems for those who need them :

    https://www.snopes.com/ap/2019/08/27/traveling-with-pets-no-deal-brexit-would-make-it-far-harder/

    Indeed, it's not like one can rent a guide dog.
    And whatever they do, it's always behind closed doors.

    Well, nobody voted for anyone working in the WTO. And they're even more secretive.
  • Posts: 12,526
    Well it is certainly game on now!
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    On the one hand I was stunned, on the other we knew he just wanted the no-deal version, and he's pushing it through. He wants the UK to be uncle Sam's little brother, sort of Robin to Trump's badman.... .eh.... batman.
    And as Trump only tells the media he's spoken to the Chinese to stop the markets from crashing, lying through his teeth, this whole sharade will come down between now and half way next year.
  • Posts: 12,526
    On the one hand I was stunned, on the other we knew he just wanted the no-deal version, and he's pushing it through. He wants the UK to be uncle Sam's little brother, sort of Robin to Trump's badman.... .eh.... batman.
    And as Trump only tells the media he's spoken to the Chinese to stop the markets from crashing, lying through his teeth, this whole sharade will come down between now and half way next year.

    I am clearing all unnecessary debt to offset any interest rate hikes.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited August 2019 Posts: 4,043
    On the one hand I was stunned, on the other we knew he just wanted the no-deal version, and he's pushing it through. He wants the UK to be uncle Sam's little brother, sort of Robin to Trump's badman.... .eh.... batman.
    And as Trump only tells the media he's spoken to the Chinese to stop the markets from crashing, lying through his teeth, this whole sharade will come down between now and half way next year.
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Too many lies were sold to the public for the original vote to count honestly.
    It is sad, and horrific that Boris is in charge, and that this is proceeding.

    The sad honest truth of the whole thing is they never should have let us the public be given the decision on this full stop.

    It was too much of a complex issue to be resolved in a yes/no vote.

    I wholeheartedly disagree. The only real functioning democracy is Switserland, and over there they vote on everything. It's not the choice that's the basis of this mess, it's the execution. Don't forget: it was the conservative politicians that gave Hitler his power, not an overwealming majority (he never had one) of the Germans. No dictator ever one a majority vote without cheating.

    And the EU had it coming. It is an as undemocratic structure as can be. The parliament, the onlt directly chosen body, can't even initiate or propose changes. Hence the power lies in the hands of bureaucrats influenced by lobby groups, and career politicians who're not judged by what they do in the EU, but by what they do at home. And whatever they do, it's always behind closed doors.

    I can't blame the British public to be fed up with such an organisation, allthough I'd preferred it if they'd help work to change all that instead of to get out, but it's a fair choice.

    I'll take the EU over a Bojo the clown led even swinging further to the right Conservative government but then you've probably not had to live under the most unfair political party this country has ever known.

    Well I have for a good majority of my 47 years and the idea of Johnson at the helm in his big red bus veering us off the cliff terrifies me but you think the EU is more a danger if it comforts you.

    The referendum should have been advisory anyway, that cowardly Etonian Cameron has a lot to answer for.

    That's right blame the EU for your (Tories and other previous governments) inadequacies and unfairness, the British public have been played for chumps and now we are going to reap the whirl wind.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Beyond sad. Horrible. The British people will pay so dearly if Brexit happens. This is terrible news.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    It's doubtful that Brexit won't happen at this point: the die, sadly, was cast a long time ago.
  • Posts: 7,507
    You get what you vote for. However, recent years have made me wonder whether democracy really is the way to go...
  • Posts: 618
    The United Kingdom (1707-2020).

    Died by psychosis-induced suicide.

    Rest in Peace.
  • Posts: 4,044
    You think we’re going to make it to 2020. That’s something.
This discussion has been closed.