The BREXIT Discussion Thread.

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  • Posts: 4,619
    Since I am not British, I am hoping for the most exciting outcome. Which is an unexpected no deal Brexit on October 31, orchestrated by the evil genius puppetmaster Dominic Cummings. Also, I wonder how Farage will react if no deal happens at the end of next month, which would make him and his party completely irrelevant. :))
  • GertGettlerGertGettler Laptop Barcelona
    Posts: 431
    You are saying the EU is better because all independent countries is worse. I'd say you might be right, but at the same time, at the time of the 'wirdshaftswunder', there was no EU. The EEC did everything to maintain peace without a superstate idea or corruption and false(*) democracy in Brussels.

    But I think I didn't say that really. If you read carefully you more or less could discover this mottot really: Both the EU and sovereign nations have its distinct flaws. I said that if you had to choose the best of two bad options, then by all means, the EU is currently a better option for the UK than no EU. In that sense the European Union, with all its flaws and perhaps even lots of corruption the more East you go, it still is the best solution of a handful of flawed options, including Brexit.

    Perhaps to you I sound a bit 'superior' or 'elitist' when it comes to my view on the European Union. But all I do is trying to present you certain facts.

    Don't get my wrong, I do not wish the UK to be destroyed. But what's currently unfolding in the UK is bordering chaos and tragedy. And if you are sensible and pragmatic, even you would say "let's stay in the EU". Sadly, in the age of Brexit and Trump things go awry. Especially in the UK.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 2019 Posts: 15,718
    Boris Johnson set to unveil the UK's final Brexit proposals, which includes customs checks on the island of Ireland.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49894100
  • BondStu wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    BondStu wrote: »
    Boris Johnson is a complete embarrassment. Blatantly lying to try and force Parliament to do what he wants, storming out of the commons cause he doesn't like what he's hearing... this man is not fit to be the Prime Minister.

    The man is not fit to be a politician! Starring in low budget comedy shows seems like a more appropriate career for him.

    Yes, but at the same time he's dragging the UK into a No Deal Brexit.

    Luckily some right minded politicians are making that next to impossible for him.

    Unless the EU don't allow for an extension, which could well happen. Then they'll play the blame game.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Boris Johnson to set out his Brexit proposal to the EU today. British officials say it's a final offer and if rejected, there will be no further negotiation before 31 October. No 10 official: "This government will not negotiate delay."
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Boris Johnson to set out his Brexit proposal to the EU today. British officials say it's a final offer and if rejected, there will be no further negotiation before 31 October. No 10 official: "This government will not negotiate delay."

    The guy really thinks the EU cares.. amazing, those parrallel universes. He's off his rocker. The EU has no incentive whatsoever to say yes. He's got Trump's 'The Art Of No Deal' under his pillow probably.
    You are saying the EU is better because all independent countries is worse. I'd say you might be right, but at the same time, at the time of the 'wirdshaftswunder', there was no EU. The EEC did everything to maintain peace without a superstate idea or corruption and false(*) democracy in Brussels.

    But I think I didn't say that really. If you read carefully you more or less could discover this mottot really: Both the EU and sovereign nations have its distinct flaws. I said that if you had to choose the best of two bad options, then by all means, the EU is currently a better option for the UK than no EU. In that sense the European Union, with all its flaws and perhaps even lots of corruption the more East you go, it still is the best solution of a handful of flawed options, including Brexit.

    Perhaps to you I sound a bit 'superior' or 'elitist' when it comes to my view on the European Union. But all I do is trying to present you certain facts.

    Don't get my wrong, I do not wish the UK to be destroyed. But what's currently unfolding in the UK is bordering chaos and tragedy. And if you are sensible and pragmatic, even you would say "let's stay in the EU". Sadly, in the age of Brexit and Trump things go awry. Especially in the UK.

    Well I guess almost everyone will agree that staying in the EU is better than a no-deal Brexit, but I guess politicians find it more important to keep their word when it hurts everybody, than doing the sensible thing. It balances nicely with not keeping their word when it would really help everybody if they did. ;-)
  • GertGettlerGertGettler Laptop Barcelona
    edited October 2019 Posts: 431
    Boris Johnson to set out his Brexit proposal to the EU today. British officials say it's a final offer and if rejected, there will be no further negotiation before 31 October. No 10 official: "This government will not negotiate delay."

    The guy really thinks the EU cares.. amazing, those parrallel universes. He's off his rocker. The EU has no incentive whatsoever to say yes. He's got Trump's 'The Art Of No Deal' under his pillow probably.
    You are saying the EU is better because all independent countries is worse. I'd say you might be right, but at the same time, at the time of the 'wirdshaftswunder', there was no EU. The EEC did everything to maintain peace without a superstate idea or corruption and false(*) democracy in Brussels.

    But I think I didn't say that really. If you read carefully you more or less could discover this mottot really: Both the EU and sovereign nations have its distinct flaws. I said that if you had to choose the best of two bad options, then by all means, the EU is currently a better option for the UK than no EU. In that sense the European Union, with all its flaws and perhaps even lots of corruption the more East you go, it still is the best solution of a handful of flawed options, including Brexit.

    Perhaps to you I sound a bit 'superior' or 'elitist' when it comes to my view on the European Union. But all I do is trying to present you certain facts.

    Don't get my wrong, I do not wish the UK to be destroyed. But what's currently unfolding in the UK is bordering chaos and tragedy. And if you are sensible and pragmatic, even you would say "let's stay in the EU". Sadly, in the age of Brexit and Trump things go awry. Especially in the UK.

    Well I guess almost everyone will agree that staying in the EU is better than a no-deal Brexit, but I guess politicians find it more important to keep their word when it hurts everybody, than doing the sensible thing. It balances nicely with not keeping their word when it would really help everybody if they did. ;-)

    The worst thing of it all is that Boris Johnson flatly lies during his speech at the Tories Convention. He literally said that "we reached a compromise and now the ball is with the EU". You didn't reach a compromise deceitful windbag. Johnson basically said: "Northern-Ireland will stay in the 'European Single Market' (the free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour), and at the same time Northern-Ireland will leave the EU Customs Union" That's exactly what the EU doesn't want, what the EU fears. He corners the EU and wants them to both initiate stricter border controls and at the same time loosen up border controls. He literally says he wants a border and he doesn't want a border. Un-be-lie-va-ble.

    Cornering the EU this way, and not even mentioning that, apart from this 'new' border solution with Northern-Ireland, Johnson's plan is basically a facsimile of May's original deal, without the Customs Union extension included that the EU provided, makes it all so clear. He still doesn't want a deal. He wants Brexit without a deal. And he wants power. And in the process he also wants the EU to become a lapdog for this 'new' Johnson-deal.

    I say: Brexit on October 31st, without a deal. Because Johnson doesn't want a deal.

  • I say: Brexit on October 31st, without a deal. Because Johnson doesn't want a deal.

    I say don't give your enemy what he wants. I'm just simplistic that way.
  • GertGettlerGertGettler Laptop Barcelona
    Posts: 431

    I say: Brexit on October 31st, without a deal. Because Johnson doesn't want a deal.

    I say don't give your enemy what he wants. I'm just simplistic that way.

    I think we have arrived at a stage were both the EU and the UK want a no-deal.
  • Posts: 12,526
    Cards finally on the table hey! Let's watch the circus again in Westminster!!! ~X( :!! :-t
  • GertGettlerGertGettler Laptop Barcelona
    Posts: 431
    OMG, https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49936352 @-) . Apparently that 'thing' on Downing Street 10, governing the UK, will send an extension letter to the EU in Brussels, asking for a delay if no deal will be reached before October 19th.

    If I can give the EU, with prime negotiator Michel Barnier in front, an advice: Don't give them. Don't give them an extension. Let's help Boris Johnson's firm statement "31st of October it's over!".

    I'm sick of it all. Fed up with the UK. The European Union needs to move forward. This 'trojan horse', like the late French president of France Charles de Gaulle called the UK upon its first wish to enter the EU (EC back then) in 1963, needs to get out. October 31st!
  • Posts: 7,653
    OMG, https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49936352 @-) . Apparently that 'thing' on Downing Street 10, governing the UK, will send an extension letter to the EU in Brussels, asking for a delay if no deal will be reached before October 19th.

    If I can give the EU, with prime negotiator Michel Barnier in front, an advice: Don't give them. Don't give them an extension. Let's help Boris Johnson's firm statement "31st of October it's over!".

    I'm sick of it all. Fed up with the UK. The European Union needs to move forward. This 'trojan horse', like the late French president of France Charles de Gaulle called the UK upon its first wish to enter the EU (EC back then) in 1963, needs to get out. October 31st!

    With a hard brexit the negotiations with the UK after such a event will take up to ten years is the careful calculation I have read. So even with a 31st October exit we will be annoyed by the upcoming negotiations nonetheless and since NO UK politician has said anything truthfull about the UK after brexit be prepared to hear a lot of more lies for years to come.
    And I do not expect the political mess the UK is currently in to be cleared anytime soon, it is clear that power is what these clowns are craving, they have at no time really aimed at what is best for the UK. And that is the saddest part of UK politics. But at least now the general audiences know or should know. Regardless of their vote in the referendum.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Sorry Charlie, it wasn't our intention to upset you. We didn't mean to stick out noses in , that time you had a problem with the neighbours.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited October 2019 Posts: 4,043
    I'd laugh and be thrilled if this was an HBO drama but it isn't it's the plain simple reality going on around me and quite frankly it is terrifying.

    Brexit was the most idiotic idea in the history of this country and handing the decision over to the British people was the biggest cluster idea that anyone thought of.

    David Cameron wants put in the stocks.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    @Shardlake
    I can't disagree. Some things are better not left to popular vote, especially when politicians have barely figured out the nature of the beast themselves and voters on both sides are mislead by fear tactics. This is a major downside of democracy if you ask me. It's one thing to give people indirect power, it's another thing entirely to let them decide. Furthermore, it's one thing to hold a referendum on abortion or euthanasia, when no answer will ever be the correct answer and so the majority vote will help to untie the ethical knot; it's a whole other thing to let the people decide on something of geopolitical magnitude when not even the experts can predict what the direct consequences will be.

    A company CEO may ask his workers to vote for the menu on Healthy Mondays or the workshops during teambuilding activities, but rarely will one consult all his workers on investments, fusions or takeovers that may impact the company for many years. He can ask for their advice, but it's doubtful that he will consider the majority vote binding and absolute.
  • SaintMark wrote: »
    OMG, https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49936352 @-) . Apparently that 'thing' on Downing Street 10, governing the UK, will send an extension letter to the EU in Brussels, asking for a delay if no deal will be reached before October 19th.

    If I can give the EU, with prime negotiator Michel Barnier in front, an advice: Don't give them. Don't give them an extension. Let's help Boris Johnson's firm statement "31st of October it's over!".

    I'm sick of it all. Fed up with the UK. The European Union needs to move forward. This 'trojan horse', like the late French president of France Charles de Gaulle called the UK upon its first wish to enter the EU (EC back then) in 1963, needs to get out. October 31st!

    With a hard brexit the negotiations with the UK after such a event will take up to ten years is the careful calculation I have read. So even with a 31st October exit we will be annoyed by the upcoming negotiations nonetheless and since NO UK politician has said anything truthfull about the UK after brexit be prepared to hear a lot of more lies for years to come.
    And I do not expect the political mess the UK is currently in to be cleared anytime soon, it is clear that power is what these clowns are craving, they have at no time really aimed at what is best for the UK. And that is the saddest part of UK politics. But at least now the general audiences know or should know. Regardless of their vote in the referendum.

    Exactly. There's no such thing as a "no deal" Brexit really. We'd have to make the same negotiations but from a much weaker position. It wouldn't be the case of being able to just move on that you were pining for a few pages back @GertGettler, and I'm sorry that you're so sick of hearing about it, but some of us over here didn't actually want to leave and everyone in Britain has a terrifyingly real stake in this. So yeah, I am going to keep banging on about it.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @Shardlake
    I can't disagree. Some things are better not left to popular vote, especially when politicians have barely figured out the nature of the beast themselves and voters on both sides are mislead by fear tactics. This is a major downside of democracy if you ask me. It's one thing to give people indirect power, it's another thing entirely to let them decide.

    I totally agree, but letting people who came to power through democratic elections decide is just as bad.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @Shardlake
    I can't disagree. Some things are better not left to popular vote, especially when politicians have barely figured out the nature of the beast themselves and voters on both sides are mislead by fear tactics. This is a major downside of democracy if you ask me. It's one thing to give people indirect power, it's another thing entirely to let them decide.

    I totally agree, but letting people who came to power through democratic elections decide is just as bad.

    I'll once again point to Switserland as the beacon of true democracy, and the most stable and peaceful country in Europe for by now hundreds of years.

    The choice for Brexit wasn't the cluster ....., the execution by power hungry politicians who didn't understand they still needed to work together is what made the last three years better comedy than any TV series.

  • Posts: 7,507
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @Shardlake
    I can't disagree. Some things are better not left to popular vote, especially when politicians have barely figured out the nature of the beast themselves and voters on both sides are mislead by fear tactics. This is a major downside of democracy if you ask me. It's one thing to give people indirect power, it's another thing entirely to let them decide.

    I totally agree, but letting people who came to power through democratic elections decide is just as bad.

    What is the solution then?
  • GertGettlerGertGettler Laptop Barcelona
    Posts: 431
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @Shardlake
    I can't disagree. Some things are better not left to popular vote, especially when politicians have barely figured out the nature of the beast themselves and voters on both sides are mislead by fear tactics. This is a major downside of democracy if you ask me. It's one thing to give people indirect power, it's another thing entirely to let them decide. Furthermore, it's one thing to hold a referendum on abortion or euthanasia, when no answer will ever be the correct answer and so the majority vote will help to untie the ethical knot; it's a whole other thing to let the people decide on something of geopolitical magnitude when not even the experts can predict what the direct consequences will be.

    A company CEO may ask his workers to vote for the menu on Healthy Mondays or the workshops during teambuilding activities, but rarely will one consult all his workers on investments, fusions or takeovers that may impact the company for many years. He can ask for their advice, but it's doubtful that he will consider the majority vote binding and absolute.

    +1. Thanks mate. Great comment.
  • Posts: 5,994
    And now, Brexit spy fiction :

    accidental-agent-9781471150678_lg.jpg
    Brexit looms and Charles Thoroughgood, Chief of MI6, is forbidden for political reasons from spying on the EU. But when an EU official volunteers the EU’s negotiating bottom lines to one of his officers, Charles has to report it.

    Whitehall is eager for more but as the case develops Charles realises that it may not be quite what it appears. At the same time, he finds he has a family connection with a possible terrorist whom MI5 want checked out. In both cases, Charles is forced to become his own agent, seeking what he really does not want to find.

    https://www.simonandschuster.co.uk/books/Accidental-Agent/Alan-Judd/9781471150678
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 2019 Posts: 15,718
    The Queen outlines government's Brexit plan during state opening.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50039587
  • Posts: 17,756
    John le Carré on Britain, Boris and Brexit - and his new novel:

    https://theguardian.com/books/2019/oct/11/john-le-carre-truth-was-what-you-got-away-with
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    John le Carré on Britain, Boris and Brexit - and his new novel:

    https://theguardian.com/books/2019/oct/11/john-le-carre-truth-was-what-you-got-away-with

    We are now in the age (appropriately enough!) of the Brexit spy novel.
  • Posts: 17,756
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    John le Carré on Britain, Boris and Brexit - and his new novel:

    https://theguardian.com/books/2019/oct/11/john-le-carre-truth-was-what-you-got-away-with

    We are now in the age (appropriately enough!) of the Brexit spy novel.

    Indeed! Will have to read Agent Running in the Field eventually. I do like that title.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Well it does give a whole new series of opportunities for Bond. French villains, revangist civil servants from Brussels....
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Well it does give a whole new series of opportunities for Bond. French villains, revangist civil servants from Brussels....

    After Joseph Wiseman as Doctor No... Angela Merkel as Madame Non? ;)
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Well it does give a whole new series of opportunities for Bond. French villains, revangist civil servants from Brussels....

    After Joseph Wiseman as Doctor No... Angela Merkel as Madame Non? ;)

    Freulein Nein actually works.....
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited October 2019 Posts: 18,281
    Well it does give a whole new series of opportunities for Bond. French villains, revangist civil servants from Brussels....

    After Joseph Wiseman as Doctor No... Angela Merkel as Madame Non? ;)

    Freulein Nein actually works.....

    The title of Bond 26 revealed here first! I recall a fellow pupil at secondary school coming up with 'Nurse Yes' as a Bond title. :D
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    Well it does give a whole new series of opportunities for Bond. French villains, revangist civil servants from Brussels....

    After Joseph Wiseman as Doctor No... Angela Merkel as Madame Non? ;)

    Freulein Nein actually works.....

    If anything, it should be Frau Nein. She's married. And, oh yes, Frau Dr. Nein in fact. But I suppose le docteur Macron is a more likely candidate, really.
This discussion has been closed.