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I think the outcome of no deal is total unknown territory. It could spell disaster for the UK, but it could also spell disaster for the EU if the UK make a success of it.
It was like when the disaster predictions of UK not joining the Euro all those years ago. The same doom and gloom predictions were around then (probably by the same people predicting doom and gloom now).
There is a chance the UK could actually make this work in our favour, but it has been drowned all currently by all the scare stories of leaving with no deal. Once we fall off the cliff, we'll have to find a way to make this work, and it may not be as bad as the predictions say.
We might have been country with lots o industry and influence once but the way we've dealt with Brexit has made us a laughing stock of the world.
As soon as people realise we aren't the Empire anymore the better.
The idea the country some people think we could be without the EU is pure fiction and things weren't that bad, it's just inadequate governments present and past like to deflect the blame somewhere and the British public fell for it.
Rather than holding the Tories to account they blame someone else and this is the consequence.
Maybe we might do ok out of deal but leaving without, there is going to be a lot of hardship to deal with and the privileged place we were in will be gone and then we'll find out how insignificant we are.
I'm not so sure. The likes of Germany are hitting recession at the moment. All is not well with the EU either. The early signs of it cracking are showing too. If the UK suddenly strikes up new deals with other parts of the world, industry starts coming back home (like Trump has surprisingly done in the US), then who knows. We are in unknown territory once we leave. Could go pear shaped, but in the long run it may not be as painful as we've been led to believe.
And I'm saying this as a Remainer, BTW...
Even taking the fact of us getting a deal or not out of the equation, look at the morons leading the three main parties. Johnson is a caricature of a Thatcherite, Corbyn is a well known Eurosceptic who still can't clarify his position three years on, and the nonentity from the Lib Dems, simply would withdraw Article 50, without any vote. Something, even as a leaver I wouldn't hate at this point, personally but it would cause anarchy in the streets. She doesn't care about that, though. All three of them are rotten to the core, in their own way.
Yup! It is a right mess. I think the best thing for the country is to get Brexit done ASAP so we can move on (or at least try to move on...)
3. Alastair Campbell
2. Tony "war criminal" Blair
and the number one:
Hear hear! I agree with @PanchitoPistoles! The one good thing to possibly come out of this is that Farage's career will be cast into oblivion. Finger's crossed.
This is not fact, just a prediction.
Just to set the record straight, Trump as of yet hasn't made any significant changes to the American economy. His support for the coal industry hasn't stopped it's decline one bit and the few factories that 'came back' were either planned before or got such an increadable tax deal the American population will pay for it for years.
But that's beside the point I want to make. The thing is, all the models, disaster stories and doom and gloom, either way, are based on wild guesses. The fact is that Germany became big in the 50ties, before the Union. There's no reason to think Britain, or whatever is left of it..... whatever is left of it.... (sorry, couldn't resist) will be able to get a blooming economy. All it'll need is no corruption in politics, an efficieent civil service, some basic welfare systems, and invest in infrastructure. These days less roads, more fiberglass.
You do realise that this is just the withdrawal agreement? IF Johnson gets it through only then do we start the actual negotiations on the future trading relationship with the EU.
Brexit won't be "done" today or on 31st October, or for years or decades. This is with us now for a very long time.
The divisions won't disappear. They're likely to actually get worse as people realise what Brexit actually means. Lower wages, fewer rights, being lapdog to Trump, sell off of the NHS and lower food standards.
Either way, the first steps need to be taken. Delaying this until Jan 31st next year, then probably again to March, then again, then again is making the situation even worse, not better.
With each delay, Parliament is looking more of a laughing stock. With each delay, the UK rock solid democracy that the world used to envy is starting to crumble away. With each delay, investors refuse to back the country any more.
Which "world" used to envy UK's democracy exactly??
Most of what you read about him is utter lies there has been a military grade smear campaign done on the man.
But hey you continue to think this corrupt, inept out for their own rabble are the only alternative, I'll leave this here and let it sink in.
This party is and have never been for the common good of the major population and now they cover up things to cosy up with that man child in The Whitehouse.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/harry-dunn-government-cover-up-dominic-raab-anne-sacoolas-trump-crash-a9162331.html
A war criminal telling us what's best for our country, is one of the best jokes I have heard in a long time.
I generally like Farage but I find it incredibly hilarious how scared he is of the deal passing today! :)) And it's incredibly obvious that the reason he doesn't wan't the deal to pass is not that it's not good enough.
Exactly. I don't get the "lets just get it over with" attitude at all. If you're sick of hearing about Brexit just tune out. But it's too important an issue to take what we can get just for the sake of getting it over with. A guy in my local last week actually argued in favour of leaving deal or not on the 31st with "we'd be alright, we survived the wars didn't we". You couldn't make this stuff up.
Corbyn is too good for the British public. They're idiots. The amount of people who can't see the right wing propaganda machine for what it is amazes me. Predictions are saying that this deal would risk the NHS and weaken workers rights massively. And what's the response from the majority of the working class? Don't block it. Get it over with. We want to leave now. Boris knows what's best for us.
I thought Brexit was a crap idea, but I know there were some sound arguments for leaving. What I don't and never will understand is why so many working class people are trusting the same party who destroyed our industry in the first place to deliver Brexit smoothly and find alternatives to the support the EU has given us. Laughable. If you're a rich Tory supporting hard Brexiteer fair play to you. I mean, you're a selfish prick, but at least you're voting for what benefits you. If you're a working class Tory supporting hard Brexiteer, you're an idiot. But those people are too blinded by racism and naive patriotism to see that.
The way our Parliament is now, not the world we live in anymore, that's for sure.
Once again my friend you and I are on the same page.
It amazes me still that working class people still vote Tory but the South love Trump when it is well known that Republican's are always screwing them over.
I work with a few people who think Johnson is wonderful and Corbyn a vile man.
Corbyn is not tied to any corporation, he doesn't write for some rag spouting xenophobic rhetoric, he never went to posh dinners when he was just an MP. He's always passionately campaigned, his speech about the Iraq war proved right, he was calling Blair out long before it came fashionable.
Yes he's scruffy (so's Johnson and any number of Tory minister and MP's) and no charisma isn't one of the things you'd call him (though is Johnson charismatic?) but he stays under cool and doesn't bad mouth his opponents and no he isn't anti-Semitic, unless wanting rights for Palestine makes you anti-Semitic.
The whole Labour Party is anti-semetic is the Blairite Zionist faction of the party wanting to sabotage his chances. Noam Chomsky said they have managed to convince people that one of the most passionate civil rights activists of the last 40 years is an anti- Semite and a racist, military grade indeed.
He has been an MP for Islington North for over 3 decades, he only stood for Labour Leader because they usually put up a socialist candidate and he said it was his turn.
Johnson wasn't even a leaver at heart. he's obsessed with emulating is hero Winston Churchill and hitched himself to the best opportunity to become PM.
Did you see him the next morning after the leave campaign won, he didn't look like a man who had won the lottery, he looked visibly shaken.
Leave winning wasn't his plan, he wanted to narrowly lose then take over the party go to the EU and flesh out a better deal to stay in the European union, Boris was never a leaver at heart, he took his time committing to that side of the argument, is that the actions of a man truly believing in the campaign?
He wanted to be the hero and like Churchill save the day victoriously, he's not a buffoon he is a manipulative, elitist, nasty piece of work, don't fall for that lovable buffoon routine one bit.
I still have to look and think my god he's the Prime Minister when I think where he gained his popularity, a topical comedy program where the two panellists used to rightly ridicule him.
We in the UK live in a representative democracy (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy). What you see happening at Parliament, today or any day since you care to remember, is ‘the will of the people’. Not some shouting match on the Internet or on the streets. Our politics happens exclusively through elections, not over headlines, referenda or kickback corruption. MPs represent their voters’ interests and those of the country in all conscience and to their best knowledge and belief. This is a great treasure countless people around the globe would give a lot for - many even died for something like it.
To suggest otherwise, with all due respect, is doing a disservice to this democracy and its core fundamentals. What you see is the result of our free elections, is democracy at work. You do not smear it with impunity. Our system, fallible as it may be, is still the best we have.
Maybe try a little harder to see their perspective rather than being frustrated with the fact that they don't see yours.
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/fifty-times-jeremy-corbyn-stood-with-jewish-people/
Oh believe me I've tried. Like I said before, I get that it must be frustrating to have voted leave and still be sitting around waiting. But I don't get why leaving without a deal or with a terrible deal (negotiated by the Tories, famous of course for how they've always looked out for the working class) would be preferable to waiting longer. As many have pointed out, it's only the beginning anyway. There's no such thing as getting it over and done with.
It doesn't help too that the perspective of the people I'm on about seems almost solely based on racism, bollocks they've read in the Sun or been fed by people who do not care about them at all, and this naive idea of us being able to stand on our own like back in the glory days (lol) of the empire. I work in a garage. The majority there voted leave and out of all of the I'd say only one guy really seemed to have looked into it and voted leave for credible reasons. He's also the only leave voter in our garage who isn't backing the Tories (at least the Brexit party barely get a look in though, a couple of them were UKIP voters a few years back, so it's nice to see that Farage has gradually fallen in favour).
And that is frustrating. Because finally after the likes of Blair and Brown (I actually wasted my vote on the Green party in the 2015 election, that's how disillusioned I'd become with British politics) we have a principled Labour party who are actually providing a proper social democratic alternative to the conservatives, and he's recieved tons of backlash and criticism from the same people he's trying, as he always has because he's actually a decent principled person and not a career politician, to help. I especially don't understand why those same working class people would rather trust the Tories with Brexit than him (a Eurosceptic himself, but one who isn't prepared to sell out the working people for his own benefit). Well actually, I do understand why. It's because they can't stand Corbyn. But their reasons for not being able to stand him aren't based on any sort of truth or reason or logic, so I guess what I don't understand is why they still continue to think that. They're good blokes, some of them I've known since I started there years ago and have actually become really good mates of mine. But I can't talk to them about politics anymore because it is just too frustrating and we just end up arguing and telling eachother that we're being stupid and talking bollocks until we all agree to just shut up about it. But the sad thing is they seem to be in the majority. I really hope that I'm just getting the wrong impression because of where I currently live/work and because of those people online being the ones shouting the loudest, but the last few years have destroyed my faith in the British working class to be honest, so I don't know.
I guess you could argue that new Labour destroyed a lot of goodwill but there's been a pretty clear change in direction there, while the Tories are just as nasty as they've always been, so no, I still don't understand and I'm sorry but I don't think I ever will.
Bit like saying that driving a car at speed into a brick wall is likely to lead to serious injury is only a prediction. Factually correct but...
Unless the car is a Volvo, in which case, the wall comes off worse.
Would that be a flatpack Swexit?
As I've stated here before, it isn't, by far, the 'best we have'. It's the best the UK has as it's the only thing the UK has, but when it comes to the world there are still better options:
1. the best (IMO) is direct Democracy. It means everybody needs to vote many times a year, but it's by far the best system there is:
https://www.ch.ch/en/demokratie/political-rights/referendum/
2. even if you want a representative democracy, a multi-party system is far superior to the two-party system you have. Same goes for the one-man-one-vote system compared to your district system. I would even go as far as saying it's the two-party system and it's shortcomings that got you in this political mess. Look at New Zealand: they went from a two-party to a multi-party system. They've had a far more stable government ever since.