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I've long ago decided to let the Brits work out their Brexit problem (and yes, either way it is a problem) for themselves. But I do have my opinion. As for your two issues, I do not share the first at all, while fully endorsing the other.
It may be that direct democracy works fine in Switzerland. But I do think that examples of direct democracy in other places, notably Germany, should deter people from trying any further. There is no referendum in federal matters except the rearrangement of Länder (states/provinces), as determined by the Grundgesetz (Constitution). Thank you.
There are referendums/direct democracy votes on a Land level. History has shown (in Germany) that most people don't care enough to even go and vote (and quite rightly so - after all they elected a parliament to take care of those things). It is only those people who follow the "not in my backyard" route that are interested in killing projects of any kind that become active, or who wish to express their basic opposition to the government. There is only one example where a major project was approved after being subjected to a referendum: The rebuilding of the Stuttgart central station ("Stuttgart 21"), changing it from a terminus to a through station and putting it underground. I am still convinced that that was only possible because the state government was AGAINST it. Even in that case, people didn't care about the matter itself, but simply wanted to sock it to those in charge.
You can't run a country like that. We elect parliaments because we are aware that virtually no member of the general electorate has the time and means to inform him-/herself about the important facts and detailed circumstances of political and other important projects. Parliamentarians are entrusted with the job of relieving the electorate from doing that work, and (exceptions notwithstanding) I think they have been doing an outstanding job for the last 70 years in Germany. I find parliamentary decisions by a body elected typically by more than 65 per cent of voters infinitely more democratic than the result of a referendum in which only 25 or 30 percent even go and vote, and it's typically those who think they are negatively affected.
I think a parliament that feels it has to follow a narrow "victory" of a single majority in what was probably a momentary, gut-feeling referendum, without any constitutional rule requiring them to do so and without considering the repercussions for the future, is not doing its job. They should know better. Which is why I am very pleased that long ago our constitution was changed to demand a two-thirds majority by both chambers of the parliament for decisions concerning German membership in the European Union. Membership is very much a constitutional issue, and it should be treated as such and not as a casual decision based on somebody's whim.
As for the second issue, yes of course. The "first past the post" system reduces everything to basically a two-party system, and everyone outside the US and UK knows that it isn't really democratic. On the other hand, other people feel differently. I remember explaining the German system of two votes (one for an individual candidate, one for a party list to determine proportional representation) to the class in my US high school in 1974, and the answer was "But that wouldn't be democratic". But then, I as a more-or-less conservative was also asked "You're a Communist, aren't you?" at the time.
I'm a Remainer but hard to see how this ends well.
I was imagining the Remain strategy was to support Johnson's deal with an amendment that it must go to a second referendum but I don't see that happening.
Sad thing is that if he gets his deal through that will only mark the end of the beginning. This disaster is going to run and run for years.
No one even claims there are any advantages to Brexit any more. It's just "let's knee cap ourselves and get it over with".
Encapsulates Britain and much of the rest of the world in 2019.
I agree. I also think there is no going back anymore, asking the EU if we can rejoin. The country is too divided now, even if there was a second referendum and it went slightly in favour of Remain this time round. Leavers would never accept that result, the same way Remainers have never accepted the 2016 result.
Worst case scenarios in the next few years -
1) UK leaves and manages to thrive independently, and the EU slowly crumbles and splits off the back of it. This is no good for Europe in general.
2) UK leaves, plunges into recession, and the UK nations splits internally, while the EU manages to prosper. This is no good for the UK.
3) UK leaves, plunges into recession, and the EU also falls into deep recession, and eventually splits. No good for anyone.
4) UK doesn't leave for at least another year, due to constant blocking by Parliament, recession then ensues, a second referendum is called for, causing more delay which keeps UK firmly in recession during that period, and then the result of that referendum divides and splits the UK even further - whichever way the outcome falls. Parliament then has to act on the result of the second referendum, and may well still be at a deadlock, while civil unrest becomes more active and troubling. If Leave win, the Remainers in Parliament will still try to block that, and if Remain win, the Leavers in Parliament will try to block that too, due to not accepting the first referendum wasn't honoured.
I know for Remainers the ideal scenario is a second referendum which Remain wins, the Leavers graciously accept defeat and go quietly away, the UK rejoin the EU, and we pretend the past 3 years were like a bad dream that didn't really happen, Bobby Ewing Dallas shower style. This isn't going to happen. The whole fundamental basis of Democracy will be at stake. The Leavers and Remainers are bitterly fixed and entrenched in their camps now, and neither side is going to take the result of a second referendum quietly. If Leave win again, I cannot see Remainers quietly going away either, graciously admitting defeat.
A Pandora's Box was opened in 2016, and it is impossible to close the lid on it now.
The best case scenario is that the UK leaves and becomes independently successful, while the EU equally continues to thrive and be successful. But that really is wishful thinking...
No one knows anymore. All bets are off.
My prediction as it stands today is Boris gets his deal through Parliament. But tomorrow is another day, when Parliament may not vote it through, and the EU may not grant us an extension, meaning we crash out with No Deal.
The gift of Brexit that keeps on giving. It's like watching an unpredictable Netflix drama unfold, and we are now into the final season, where anything could happen.
I can't wait for the last episode...
The end of this whenever it comes? Is just the beginning! Then it will all be about the new deals and arrangements.....etc!!! ~X( :-h :))
I think it's safe to say that the EU will give any and every extension required...after all, it preserves the status quo, so what's the drawback? - and it is (as it has been from the beginning) entirely a British problem to decide on a way and date of getting out. Economically speaking, the UK remaining is commercially favourable to everyone involved (the UK seems to be the only country disputing this, but only for ideological reasons), so the EU is in no hurry to get rid of them (whatever the common EU citizen thinks about this in the meantime, which is probably a hearty "good riddance" on whatever terms).
I think Guy Verhoftstad has certainly had it up to the back teeth looking at an interview clip not too long ago.
The worst thing the UK can do is dwell in indecision. It just ain't sexy and makes the UK appear weak - no matter the result. There's gonna be retaliation from one group or another either way, so stare it down and overcome.
I wouldn't be too sure the EU will happily grant us another extension until January next year anymore.
The way Sky reported the mood in Brussels earlier, they said they've never seen the EU look so angry. I have a sneaky feeling they will tell us to do one in the next few days, and rightly so too. If I was them I'd have had enough of dealing with us too.
We are a laughing stock as a country, and a shambles of a Parliament.
The government will abandon efforts to get its Brexit deal legislation through if MPs vote against the timetable this evening. If the EU the offers a delay, as is expected, the government will try to push straight for a general election and would not put any more legislation through, essentially going on strike.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50142367
I couldn't care less if we go or stay now,i just want it over.
Looks like you'll be getting a General Election around Christmas time before any new plans on whether Brexit happens or not.
Sure does *shakes head in dismay*
Gunpowder,treason and plot.....sounds about right !!
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50146182
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50146182
Just go on strike as well at that timeperiod.... see what happens then :-D
That would mess up the democracy called UK not seriously though as the world has seen the last years how self serving the English politicians really are.
That said I would like see the Brexit affairs of the UK settled one way or another.
Just learned that if a GE is called before Christmas? This will supersede a Trade Union strike and a court could well place an injunction to halt the strike? This is because people will want their election flyers!!! :)) Never heard that one before, but I bet the company will jump at that!
Johnson's deal settles nothing. Just opens a whole new can of worms. Brexit has no end.
If anybody had foreseen the mess the referendum created I doubt any body would have voted in favor, a nice present from a parting Prime-minister even dead pigs are not save from him.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50174402
My worst fears as a postman at Christmas!!!! ~X( :-t
Will this be you at Christmas, @RogueAgent ? ;)
:)) I will probably look like that by the end of it! Lol!!!