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QoS or SP, which film would have been more easily "fixed"

talos7talos7 New Orleans
in Bond Movies Posts: 8,255
It is generally agreed the both QoS and SP are flawed films that did not live up to expectations. I realize that this is subjective and opinions vary. With the two being flawed accepted as a given, which one would have been more easily improved?
I'd have to go with QoS. It's really grown on me, I think with better editing and a more substantial, threatening scheme from Green and Quantum, it could have been spectacular. Toss in some better henchman as well.
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Comments

  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    Agreed (though I regard QoS very highly to begin with and am of the mind that it doesn't really need "fixing"). Upon first my first viewing of QoS, I think what disappointed me the most was the climax. I was just expecting something more than the eco-hotel shootouts and fire. But with time and repeat viewings, this has become a virtually nonexistent issue, especially as the ending scenes with Camille and Yusef and M are so strong. I've never reacted as strongly to the editing as some have. For me, the only scene that truly suffers from hyper-editing is the foot-chase through Siena. Looks like there was a lot of great stuntwork in there that almost disappears on account of the speed-cutting. Other than that, the film flows very well—with the opening car chase and shootout at the opera perhaps being editing highlights. A legitimate henchman would have only boosted QoS higher in my estimation, but I kinda like Bond just being this lean, mean badass in the film fighting scum-of-the-earth evil as opposed to brawny baddies. So, better editing during the Siena chase would do it for me as far as fixing goes. Maybe a grander, more exciting climax than the eco-hotel, but those have kind of been in short supply lately anyways. QoS might actually hold the #4 spot in my overall rankings currently, just edging out CR which it usually rides side-by-side with.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Both great films, but there is less to fix in SP. Replace the lame finale with something much better, and drop any hint of Bond and Blofeld knowing each other from before and there you go. Top notch Bond.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    Easy. Fix the editing alone and QoS is already be a much better film.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,455
    Easy. Only one change needed. Make QoS a standalone story with no connection to CR and give it more traditional editing. Simple as that.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    The only things I'd fix in SP would be Silva being a Spectre agent and the quote after the gunbarrel. Doesn't really need fixing imo. It's a great film.

    QoS on the other hand I wouldn't even know where to start (scrap everything and come up with a solid well developed main plot and make sure it actually feels like a Bond film this time?). I know it has its fans and I have tried to like it but it's just a mess imo. Probably not the objectively worst Bond film but my least favourite by far.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    Easy. Only one change needed. Make QoS a standalone story with no connection to CR and give it more traditional editing. Simple as that.
    Agreed. It just needed to breathe more. That's all.
  • noSolaceleftnoSolaceleft
    Posts: 1,162
    bondjames wrote: »
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    Easy. Only one change needed. Make QoS a standalone story with no connection to CR and give it more traditional editing. Simple as that.
    Agreed. It just needed to breathe more. That's all.

    "Breathe" absolutely nailes it.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,941
    QUANTUM OF SOLACE. Move the gunbarrel to the start (and slow it down a little).

    Done.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    SP needs an overhaul ..QoS is brilliant as it is ,but it does need the parachute jump scene corrected,that was a throwback to DAD that didnt belong in there.
  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,927
    The boat and plane sequences are both unnecessary. Neither are very impressive or do anything to advance the story. It's like the creative team said they needed to include chases with each kind of vehicle in the film, squeeze them in there somewhere.
  • MilovyMilovy
    edited May 2017 Posts: 676
    Hard to say. I find both to be massively flawed in conception and execution. Not a fan of the direct sequel approach, which leaves both films relying far too heavily on their predecessors for any sort of weight or impact. (I wonder if any other fans have noticed that Craig's two worst-received films share this approach in common?)

    I am tempted to go with QoS, however, because I'm thinking about how to "fix" the films in post. The editing in QoS is by far its biggest issue. And not just the action editing - the entire film is way overcut. Too many shots, not enough breathing room, no proper emphasis on what's important to the story. It's exhausting and makes your eyes glaze over.

    So how to reedit QoS? Well, I'd say loosen up the editing of the whole thing. Much longer shots, and fewer shots. Give the viewer time to relax when appropriate.

    And then (this will seem counter intuitive, bear with me) shorten the action scenes severely. Loosen up the action editing so that it's more coherent and engaging, and then remove some of the beats within the action. There's way too much action in the film - most of it not contributing to the forward progression of the story - and the foot chase, boat chase and plane chase could have easily been half the length. At the end of the day, this stuff isn't the film's strongest asset. That would be the performers - Craig, Dench, Christensen, Amalric and Giannini.

    Hopefully a film recut in this manner would still come out to 100-110 min.

    An aside: I've noticed the film has received a more positive appraisal after fans have viewed it on home video over the last decade. I believe this is because the editing works far better on a small screen (TV or laptop) where your eye can follow the action, rather than the big screen, where the film looks like a total mess. The opening car chase is "brilliant" on DVD, but in theatres, it certainly was not.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    As others have mentioned, QoS just needs a few touch ups here and there to really flourish, although I love it just the way it is. It seems if we were to tinker with that fast paced editing and remove/rethink some of the action scenes then everyone could be happy.

    SP needs the wrecking ball taken to it and a team of engineers to come up with something fresh and inspired.
  • daltondalton
    Posts: 1,631
    There's not much wrong at all with QoS, so I don't think that there's really anything there that needs to be fixed. If someone wanted to flesh out the story of Quantum a bit more in there, then that would have been fine, but any "fixes" to QoS are just small little nitpicky things, IMO.

    There's no fixing SP. It needs to be an entirely different movie.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Milovy wrote: »
    An aside: I've noticed the film has received a more positive appraisal after fans have viewed it on home video over the last decade. I believe this is because the editing works far better on a small screen (TV or laptop) where your eye can follow the action, rather than the big screen, where the film looks like a total mess. The opening car chase is "brilliant" on DVD, but in theatres, it certainly was not.
    I completely agree, and noticed that on my first viewing of it on the small screen.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    That is true and repeated viewings have also made it easier to discern exactly what is going on during the chase.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    QOS wouldn't need much work to me it's fine as it is to a degree but maybe slowing it down as some have said and ditching the sink hole sequence and the lame GF reference.

    Whereas SPECTRE needs to be taken apart and totally reconstructed, if you are going to tie the films together it needs to be better than the nonsense we got hear and what goes without saying is remove the naff Blofeld childhood connection.

    The film needs some threat and suspense, practically every big scene bar the PTS ditching the CGI explosion totally lacks any danger. SPECTRE is a real problem to fix whereas QOS would take tweaks.
  • QuantumOrganizationQuantumOrganization We have people everywhere
    Posts: 1,187
    Milovy wrote: »
    Hard to say. I find both to be massively flawed in conception and execution. Not a fan of the direct sequel approach, which leaves both films relying far too heavily on their predecessors for any sort of weight or impact. (I wonder if any other fans have noticed that Craig's two worst-received films share this approach in common?)

    I am tempted to go with QoS, however, because I'm thinking about how to "fix" the films in post. The editing in QoS is by far its biggest issue. And not just the action editing - the entire film is way overcut. Too many shots, not enough breathing room, no proper emphasis on what's important to the story. It's exhausting and makes your eyes glaze over.

    So how to reedit QoS? Well, I'd say loosen up the editing of the whole thing. Much longer shots, and fewer shots. Give the viewer time to relax when appropriate.

    And then (this will seem counter intuitive, bear with me) shorten the action scenes severely. Loosen up the action editing so that it's more coherent and engaging, and then remove some of the beats within the action. There's way too much action in the film - most of it not contributing to the forward progression of the story - and the foot chase, boat chase and plane chase could have easily been half the length. At the end of the day, this stuff isn't the film's strongest asset. That would be Craig, Dench, Christensen, Amalric and Giannini.

    Hopefully a film recut in this manner would still come out to 100-110 min.

    An aside: I've noticed the film has received a more positive appraisal after fans have viewed it on home video over the last decade. I believe this is because the editing works far better on a small screen (TV or laptop) where your eye can follow the action, rather than the big screen, where the film looks like a total mess. The opening car chase is "brilliant" on DVD, but in theatres, it certainly was not.
    Never though about this. Good catch!
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    dalton wrote: »
    There's not much wrong at all with QoS, so I don't think that there's really anything there that needs to be fixed. If someone wanted to flesh out the story of Quantum a bit more in there, then that would have been fine, but any "fixes" to QoS are just small little nitpicky things, IMO.

    There's no fixing SP. It needs to be an entirely different movie.

    Couldn't have said that better.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    dalton wrote: »
    There's not much wrong at all with QoS, so I don't think that there's really anything there that needs to be fixed. If someone wanted to flesh out the story of Quantum a bit more in there, then that would have been fine, but any "fixes" to QoS are just small little nitpicky things, IMO.

    There's no fixing SP. It needs to be an entirely different movie.

    Pretty much.

    With QoS, I'd like to think things would have turned out better if the writer's strike didn't happen but what we ended up with was still pretty good. There's not THAT much needed to fix it. The first thing I'd do is opt for a more agreeable editing process. Shaky cam + quick cuts isn't and has never been the answer when trying to convey action. Other than that some fleshing out here and there and that's it really.

    SP otoh as you rightfully said needs to go back to the drawing board.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I like what they tried to do with the action editing in QoS. It's just that I think they took it just a little too far. Just a few more wide angle and perspective shots in the middle of the quick cuts would have helped to clarify what was going on and give it more of a Bondian (as opposed to Bournesque) feel.

    Still, since it is a one-off in the series, I quite like it. Different.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited August 2017 Posts: 9,020
    .
  • noSolaceleftnoSolaceleft
    edited June 2017 Posts: 1,162
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    SPECTRE doesn't need fixing.

    QUANTUM OF SOLACE easy as pie: re-edit it, completely as the editor of QOS obviously was insane.

    Move the bloody gun-barrel to the beginning where it belongs and of course a proper one.

    +10 minutes of conversation and something like a golden thread that reminds the viewer
    every now and then, that bond is still hunting the man who doomed Vesper. I remember when bond finally confronts him at the end I had something of a "oh yes there was something left, wasn't it? " moment ( and no, I didn't have any problems to follow the story in itself).
    Then it would be one of the very best Bond movies indeed. Right up there with FRWL ( always keeping in mind that this is still a spy franchise )
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,361
    Both don't need much fixing.

    Spectre would be the easiest one to fix really. All the ingredients are there. Give the script another rewrite with some polish, remove the Bond/Blofeld childhood acquaintance angle out of the script completely. Lastly replace Thomas Newman's garbage score with something better and you'd have a top 3 Bond film.

    Quantum of Solace's editing needs to be slowed down considerably. Each frame needs time to breathe not zip by like a flip book every 2 seconds. Put a Binder style gunbarrel at the beginning and it would be much better.
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Both great films, but there is less to fix in SP. Replace the lame finale with something much better, and drop any hint of Bond and Blofeld knowing each other from before and there you go. Top notch Bond.

    Exactly
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    And re-do the awful score.
  • noSolaceleftnoSolaceleft
    Posts: 1,162
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Both great films, but there is less to fix in SP. Replace the lame finale with something much better, and drop any hint of Bond and Blofeld knowing each other from before and there you go. Top notch Bond.

    Exactly

    I really think you guys underestimate the challenge. Only to make the story development of SP slightly logical it would have to be reworked from the basement, while QoS actually has a very sound story with very very few plot holes ( One of the most curious is why he doesn't tell M that he didn't know threw the bodyguard of the roof. There's really no conceivable reason why he doesn't).
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,255
    I think QoS needs a facelift while SPECTRE needs extensive reconstructive surgery. In addition to a complete rewrite of the script many of the individual elements were poorly executed and boring. Both the car and plane chases were dull and retreads of sequences that have been done with more panache in other films. The "brother" storyline is tired and unnecessary. The Villain's lair in the crater is an interesting concept but lacks the grandeur that had been seen in past Bond films. On top of this is the oft mentioned score that is for the most part a rehash of what was done for SF.
  • noSolaceleftnoSolaceleft
    Posts: 1,162
    talos7 wrote: »
    I think QoS needs a facelift while SPECTRE needs extensive reconstructive surgery.

    I guess this is called coining a phrase. Excellent!
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    noSolaceleft wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    I think QoS needs a facelift while SPECTRE needs extensive reconstructive surgery.

    I guess this is called coining a phrase. Excellent!

    I like it.

    If QOS is just some rich bint having a bit of botox SP is Barry Sheene.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    noSolaceleft wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    I think QoS needs a facelift while SPECTRE needs extensive reconstructive surgery.

    I guess this is called coining a phrase. Excellent!

    I like it.

    If QOS is just some rich bint having a bit of botox SP is Barry Sheene.
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