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007: What would you have done differently?

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  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Last_Rat_Standing wrote: »
    Last_Rat_Standing also enjoys speaking in the third person.

    ha!
  • STLCards3STLCards3
    Posts: 230
    Drop JW Pepper for starters. Tone down the kung-fu bit. Less talk about nipples. The slide whistle actually doesn't bother me too much.

    The rest wasn't too bad.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    Time to catch up.

    OHMSS
    .Maybe do a better job of dubbing Lazenby.

    DAF
    .I adore this movie so I couldn't change much. Rename Gray's character. This way, it doesn't ignore OHMSS. All that would really need to be altered is his attire and the cat.
    .Keep a lot of the deleted scenes, especially the ones with Plenty.
    .Improve the finale. Let's get that bathosub chase and salt mine fight. Sounds great.

    LALD
    .Have Kananga's death be offscreen. That was just embarrassing.

    TMWTGG
    .Release the film in 1975 so it isn't rushed.
    .Improve the score.
    .Get rid of the Solex Agitator plotline.
    .Make Goodnight less of an idiot.
    .Get rid of Bond grabbing the wrestlers ass. Makes me cringe.
    .After Bond jumps outof the school window, go directly to the boat chase. No need for Hip and his nieces.
    .No slide whistle.
    .The tone should be more like FYEO. Although, I'm a J.W. fan.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Remove all the kids from the movie.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    The assassination attempt on M by Bond wouldn't have worked with Moore,and the series was in a delicate situation,i think it would have been too ahead of its time.

    Basically,change Goodnight totally,give more time to Anders to make her death more of a wow factor,give LOTS more time to Scaramanga trying to bump Bond off instead of losing all his mystery factor by introducing himself,giving Bond the opportunity to actually see who he has to kill,thus handing him the advantage.

    Scrap the nieces,they just get on my bloody nerves,and make Nick-Nack and Scaramanga more menacing and cold-blooded.

    No stupid whistle to ruin one of the best stunts in the series.

    Make the lunch scene longer,to build up the tension between the characters and the viewers.

    Totally re-do the duel in all aspects and give Scaramanga a decent send off,not the crappy way he was killed (same with Kananga) .

    Bond escaping on the Junk is fine and Nick-Nack being on board is fine,but no Goodnight and make the fight a tough one,as with Tee Hee before,not a spoof,with that stupid music.

    And,worst of all,no random phone call from M : they could never find Scaramanga and yet M has his phone number for his bedroom on his Junk ?!?!?!?!

    There is more but that will do for now.
  • bondsumbondsum
    edited April 2018 Posts: 3,333
    Strog wrote: »
    Agreed. The Solex was Maibaum. I'd really like to see Mankiewicz's first crack at the script. Apparently he very much wanted to have Bond v. Scaramanga at the center of it. Going back to Jack Palance, I believe Mankiewicz cited SHANE and its gunfight as inspiration (possibly why he saw Palance as Scaramanga).
    I believe the Solex was Broccoli's stepson Michael G. Wilson's idea, but either way I agree it wasn't necessary to be in the movie (MacGuffin or not) and now dates it badly, that is retrospectively speaking. I also think Mankiewicz gets unfairly maligned for the end results, when a lot of what is wrong with TMWTGG is most likely down to input from elsewhere after he left. His original idea certainly sounds much better than what we got. I pretty much agree with everything written above. Hip's nieces just totally ruin the overall enjoyment of the movie for me. Yes, even above the slide whistle and the reappearance of J.W. Pepper (who doesn't make any sense looking for a car to buy in a Thai showroom to begin with). Having just seen @AlexanderWaverly's post on it originally featuring a Thai man, I think that works much better with the end gag of him wanting to buy the car. However, I think it's all well and good saying don't rush the movie, but I'm pretty sure UA would have booked their slots into all the major cinemas by this time, so there was no going back once that was set. Movies just didn't get pushed back then as they do now. Probably more a case of only Disney now controlling the output of worthwhile movies in the cinemas today and so little decent movies about to compete with. But I get that this is just a "what if I could change the world" scenario so I'm just being pedantic about the cinema slots. Sorry.
  • StrogStrog
    Posts: 684
    bondsum wrote: »
    I believe the Solex was Broccoli's stepson Michael G. Wilson's idea, but either way I agree it wasn't necessary to be in the movie (MacGuffin or not) and now dates it badly, that is retrospectively speaking.
    I knew the idea popped up when Maibaum started his drafts but not that the idea came from MGW. I'm not surprised.
    I also think Mankiewicz gets unfairly maligned for the end results, when a lot of what is wrong with TMWTGG is most likely down to input from elsewhere after he left.
    Yes. Again, I'd love to see what his film would've looked like. And I think Mankiewicz is unfairly maligned on the whole.

  • bondsumbondsum
    Posts: 3,333
    We both share the same curiosity @Strog to see how DAF and TMWTGG would have looked in its earlier drafts. I just wish that there was more available on these two movies in terms of complete early drafts. Cubby states in his biography that Mankiewicz fell out with Guy Hamilton over the story. Mankiewicz in fact asked Cubby to take Hamilton off the picture. Sadly for Tom that didn't happen. Once Tom was gone, Maibaum came back with a great deal of reluctance due to his knife-edge relationship with Saltzman and managed to rewrite all the changes that Hamilton insisted upon. Of course, we know this part. What we don't know is the treatment that was written with Roger Moore in mind after YOLT with Cambodia as its setting. This would have been before Lazenby and the decision to shoot OHMSS materialised. Though Cambodia was always the original intended location, I would like to have seen what Maibaum intended before Hamilton came a long and stuck his great oar in. Same goes for Mankiewicz's script. There are cases where the original draft is far better than the later one. Take Eastwood's Unforgiven. He asked David Webb Peoples to rewrite it to his own needs, to then realise he was entirely wrong and to go back to the original, only changing the title from The William Munny Killings to its new title. I guess my point is, the blame falls firmly on Hamilton's shoulders and not on Mankiewicz's for TMWTGG (and of course Cubby's). I know you agree on this, I just want to clarify for those that still blame Mankiewicz for the movie's shortcomings.
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    Posts: 17,756
    bondsum wrote: »
    We both share the same curiosity @Strog to see how DAF and TMWTGG would have looked in its earlier drafts. I just wish that there was more available on these two movies in terms of complete early drafts. Cubby states in his biography that Mankiewicz fell out with Guy Hamilton over the story. Mankiewicz in fact asked Cubby to take Hamilton off the picture. Sadly for Tom that didn't happen. Once Tom was gone, Maibaum came back with a great deal of reluctance due to his knife-edge relationship with Saltzman and managed to rewrite all the changes that Hamilton insisted upon. Of course, we know this part. What we don't know is the treatment that was written with Roger Moore in mind after YOLT with Cambodia as its setting. This would have been before Lazenby and the decision to shoot OHMSS materialised. Though Cambodia was always the original intended location, I would like to have seen what Maibaum intended before Hamilton came a long and stuck his great oar in. Same goes for Mankiewicz's script. There are cases where the original draft is far better than the later one. Take Eastwood's Unforgiven. He asked David Webb Peoples to rewrite it to his own needs, to then realise he was entirely wrong and to go back to the original, only changing the title from The William Munny Killings to its new title. I guess my point is, the blame falls firmly on Hamilton's shoulders and not on Mankiewicz's for TMWTGG (and of course Cubby's). I know you agree on this, I just want to clarify for those that still blame Mankiewicz for the movie's shortcomings.

    I have NEVER heard about that! :-O
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited April 2018 Posts: 4,585
    Walecs wrote: »
    Remove all the kids from the movie.

    Off the top of my head: DAF, TMWTGG, and CR are the only Bond films that even feature kids at all. Right? The first two are the only ones in which they have speaking parts, I think.
    bondjames wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Hip's kung fu nieces aren't a bother

    I seriously question how someone who can defend that scene can be classed as a Bond fan.

    When you hear all the usual suspects for the worst moment of the series such as double take pigeon, tsunami surfing and brothergate this often manages to fly under the radar.

    Quite possibly the worst 2 minutes of the series:- utter inanity which is only funny if you are a 5 year old or a fan of Mrs Brown's Boys and then because they put this in (I presume in the original script, before someone came up with this abomination, Bond just legged it to the boat?) they have to finish it off with one of the worst pieces of writing in the series by having f**knut Hip drive off and abandon Bond rather than waiting another 2 seconds for him to get in.

    I think even the tsunami surfing might actually be better than this because at least that is Bondian in concept and it's just execution that lets it down.
    Sorry to disappoint.

    I'm quite a ways on from being five, but perhaps I don't mind the scene because I first saw the film when I was just a few years older than that. So it's quite possible this is why the kid in me still has a blast with the whole sequence.

    I certainly can sympathize with those who can't forgive the stupidity of Hip leaving Bond behind when all he had to do was wait a second more. I've always rationalized that moment on the basis that he felt Bond was a 'big boy' and could take care of himself from then on. If he was unable to outrun a few shoeless joes in martial arts gear then perhaps the OO status should be rescinded ASAP. After all, Hip and his nieces got him out of the unwinnable spot he was in and rebalanced the odds. Now it was up to Bond to do the rest.

    Additionally, these Hamilton entries are full of their share of silly and inane moments. Blofeld in drag in DAF, exploding Kananga in LALD, and of course JW in TMWTGG. It's all par for the course in these early 70s films, and for most of Rog's era for that matter. I just roll with it, despite the sheer idiocy of some moments. Rog makes it all work.

    I always assumed that Hip thought Bond was in the car. That is why the nieces are yelling, watching Bond out the back window. By the time Hip realized it, it was too late.
  • bondsumbondsum
    Posts: 3,333
    Torgeirtrap wrote: »
    I have NEVER heard about that! :-O
    Yes, the producers were always shifting around the next Bond movie, right from GF days. Most are aware that OHMSS was going to be the next after GF, until the offer of a collaboration with Kevin McClory was put on the table for TB and was accepted. Then after TB, it was to be OHMSS again but poor snowfall in Europe scuppered that and they shifted to YOLT. After Connery quit, Moore was approached for TMWTTG but declined and signed up for another series of The Saint. After OHMSS, TMWTGG was once again the favourite to be made ahead of DAF. I think the jungle troubles with the Khmer Rouge, who were growing in popularity by this stage, caused a switch of movie once again. LALD was chosen after DAF before the popularity of the blaxploitation genre due to a suggestion by Mankiewicz, who thought it could work with the activities of the Black Panther Party in America. The future popularity of blaxploitation movies was just a happy coincidence. I know some still believe it was one of the first examples of the producers chasing popular trends, but that didn't really start until TMWTGG and its inclusion of kung-fu. It would have been interesting to see had TMWTGG been made earlier, whether the martial arts side of things would have been included. After all, the Cambodians had their own fighting style in the form of L'bokator (similar to Muay Thai). I would have thought Hong Kong would have at least made an appearance as it was still under British administration. Until we see earlier drafts, we shall never know.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,298
    bondsum wrote: »
    Torgeirtrap wrote: »
    I have NEVER heard about that! :-O
    Yes, the producers were always shifting around the next Bond movie, right from GF days. Most are aware that OHMSS was going to be the next after GF, until the offer of a collaboration with Kevin McClory was put on the table for TB and was accepted. Then after TB, it was to be OHMSS again but poor snowfall in Europe scuppered that and they shifted to YOLT. After Connery quit, Moore was approached for TMWTTG but declined and signed up for another series of The Saint. After OHMSS, TMWTGG was once again the favourite to be made ahead of DAF. I think the jungle troubles with the Khmer Rouge, who were growing in popularity by this stage, caused a switch of movie once again. LALD was chosen after DAF before the popularity of the blaxploitation genre due to a suggestion by Mankiewicz, who thought it could work with the activities of the Black Panther Party in America. The future popularity of blaxploitation movies was just a happy coincidence. I know some still believe it was one of the first examples of the producers chasing popular trends, but that didn't really start until TMWTGG and its inclusion of kung-fu. It would have been interesting to see had TMWTGG been made earlier, whether the martial arts side of things would have been included. After all, the Cambodians had their own fighting style in the form of L'bokator (similar to Muay Thai). I would have thought Hong Kong would have at least made an appearance as it was still under British administration. Until we see earlier drafts, we shall never know.

    I do find all of this fascinating. There was a comment--I believe it was Cubby--that OHMSS was too similar to TB to follow it--"Thunderball on skis."

    Then they went with YOLT, presumably because it was a recent novel in the public's mind. It stands to reason that TMWTGG would also be up soon because it too was a recent novel.

    I wonder why they announced DAF at the end of OHMSS. Perhaps they were going to carry on with the marriage theme?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Interesting thoughts.
  • RevelatorRevelator
    edited April 2018 Posts: 2,917
    This is why there needs to be a comprehensive book-length study of all the early and unused scripts in the Bond series. There is a mountain's worth of fascinating "what if?" material, ranging from the early versions of OHMSS and TLD detailed in Helfenstein's books to the Spectre-draft of Octopussy to the early versions of DAF, TWTGG, TSWLM, etc. Maibaum's papers are at the University of Indiana, Bloomington, and some enterprising scholar needs to go through them.
  • MadeleineSwannMadeleineSwann
    Posts: 591
    Great discussions going on here guys, just wanted to repeat that I'd really love to start seeing some original ideas regarding story and casting that people would add, as well what they would remove. Get as creative as you want. For example, would you have given Scaramanga a different henchman? If so, what characteristics do they have? Would you have added a different Bond girl? Go crazy :D
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,118
    Revelator wrote: »
    This is why there needs to be a comprehensive book-length study of all the early and unused scripts in the Bond series. There is a mountain's worth of fascinating "what if?" material, ranging from the early versions of OHMSS and TLD detailed in Helfenstein's books to the Spectre-draft of Octopussy to the early versions of DAF, TWTGG, TSWLM, etc. Maibaum's papers are at the University of Indiana, Bloomington, and some enterprising scholar needs to go through them.

    There's a Spectre-draft Octopussy? I think we need a thread about all of them.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    This is why there needs to be a comprehensive book-length study of all the early and unused scripts in the Bond series. There is a mountain's worth of fascinating "what if?" material, ranging from the early versions of OHMSS and TLD detailed in Helfenstein's books to the Spectre-draft of Octopussy to the early versions of DAF, TWTGG, TSWLM, etc. Maibaum's papers are at the University of Indiana, Bloomington, and some enterprising scholar needs to go through them.

    There's a Spectre-draft Octopussy? I think we need a thread about all of them.

    Yeah, M was supposed to die in it.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Not sure that Scaramanga even needs a henchman.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2018 Posts: 18,271
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Not sure that Scaramanga even needs a henchman.

    Scaramanga didn't have one in the novel either, just the assorted hoods who met up with him. Scaramanga was the henchman villain already.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Not sure that Scaramanga even needs a henchman.

    Scaramanga didn't have one in the novel either, just the assorted hoods who met up with him. Scaramanga was the henchman villain already.

    Exactly my point. He took care of business himself. Nothing to delegate.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Not sure that Scaramanga even needs a henchman.

    Scaramanga didn't have one in the novel either, just the assorted hoods who met up with him. Scaramanga was the henchman villain already.

    I actually wish Scaramanga was more similar to Fleming's creation. A posh and extremely British man called Francisco Scaramanga always sat weirdly with me.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Not sure that Scaramanga even needs a henchman.

    Scaramanga didn't have one in the novel either, just the assorted hoods who met up with him. Scaramanga was the henchman villain already.

    I actually wish Scaramanga was more similar to Fleming's creation. A posh and extremely British man called Francisco Scaramanga always sat weirdly with me.

    Yes, me too. It was the same as what they did with Blofeld in DAF too. It must've been a Hamilton/Mankiewicz thing. It was the softly, softly approach in those two films.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Dolph Lundgren could have been a good Scaramanga today
    b4Hy6P1N_400x400.jpg
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Dolph Lundgren could have been a good Scaramanga today
    b4Hy6P1N_400x400.jpg

    Perhaps, and he's already Bond alumni of course!
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Dolph Lundgren could have been a good Scaramanga today
    b4Hy6P1N_400x400.jpg

    Hahaha :D I think we already got our perfect modern-day Scaramanga...

    7504940.jpg
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Dolph Lundgren could have been a good Scaramanga today
    b4Hy6P1N_400x400.jpg

    Hahaha :D I think we already got our perfect modern-day Scaramanga...

    7504940.jpg

    Yes, though sadly he's already been used.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    I like Nick-Nack (not you Nackers)...i have no problem with him and he is a well remembered character by the public.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    Birdleson wrote: »
    The original choice, Jack Palance would have been great. Or Anthony Quinn. Better yet, Lee Van Cleef!

    Oooh Lee Van Cleef..now thats interesting,..
  • barryt007barryt007
    edited April 2018 Posts: 19,339
    And damn good.....and look more as Scaramanga should look.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    It would keep things more with the Western theme too. The focus on the duel lost its way a bit due to the energy crisis plot being added in later.
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