007: What would you have done differently?

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Comments

  • Posts: 230
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I don't mind Bibi too much. She's only as annoying as she's meant to be.

    I agree. Never bothered me much.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited May 2018 Posts: 6,298
    bondsum wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Well put. Star Wars brought the youth audience to the fore, so perhaps they were trying to keep the kids going back and back to the theater. (Most kids in '79 would not have seen The Magnificent Seven, though.)
    I'd argue Lucas had already done this before with American Graffiti in '73, which of course gave rise to Happy Days and Grease. Let's not also forget how many young adults also went to see SW, it wasn't just for kids. Not sure about your suggestion that not many kids wouldn't have seen The Magnificent Seven either. It was on TV as much as The Great Escape was. I think by the time MR came out, TM7 was pretty much ingrained in our national consciousness, unless you'd been living under a rock.

    Can't add much more on FYEO than @bondjames has done already. I still dislike the PTS and feel that a new Bond should have taken over, but hey-ho, can't change the past.

    No. Star Wars changed the entire business model of the film industry. SW showed how much business could be gotten from repeat male teenager viewers--and blockbusters became squarely aimed at that demographic for generations. It continues through Marvel today.

    As for FYEO, I really like the PTS, but as someone once suggested, it would have been worked better as a dream sequence, with Moore standing in the graveyard at the end. Imagine Moore delivering the line: "We had all the time in the world." Smash cut to titles.

    (Still, I'm not sure that a dream would have been definitive enough for Cubby to stick it to McClory circa 1980.)

    I don't share in the hate for Sheena Easton and the theme song. It worked then for me, and it still works now. It's not in the top tier of Bond songs, but sits solidly in the second.

    Recast Melina. She's too young for Moore. And she's kind of stiff.

    Get rid of the hockey scene, and trim down several other scenes (the car chase at dawn).

    Bibi is fine for what her role requires, but tone down some of the "Carry On"-level lines and dial back the performance. Her best moments are in the mountaintop scenes when she's confronting real danger. And her last moment with Colombo is a sweet one.
  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    A John Barry score would be tops, some of Conti's score is okay, even nice, but some of it just grates and seems to belong to a different film. And maybe a less jokey PTS, just keep the tension.
  • JeffreyJeffrey The Netherlands
    Posts: 308
    I don't think the PTS is that bad. I agree it doesn't fit with the overal tone of the film, but since it this case the PTS really has no connection to the main story, I don't mind it.

    I would not for the world recast Roger since this is one, if not his best, performance as Bond.
    FYEO is a near perfection. I wouldn't change a thing about it.

    Agreed. But if I had to change one thing, it would be the underwater sequence which goes on a bit too long. Other then that this film is pretty much perfect and probably the Bond film I've seen the most.
  • Posts: 3,333
    echo wrote: »
    No. Star Wars changed the entire business model of the film industry. SW showed how much business could be gotten from repeat male teenager viewers--and blockbusters became squarely aimed at that demographic for generations. It continues through Marvel today.
    You're right when you say it changed the business model but only insofar as much as the merchandise tie-ins and how much they invested in its sequel. Repeat viewings? That was happening long before already with Bond and Disney. Plus, as I pointed out, Lucas had already had a huge hit with American Graffiti, considered to be the first of the YA (teen) movies. If he hadn't, then it was unlikely that 20th Century Fox would have considered making a sci-fi movie with him, albeit on a shoestring budget. Look, you're not telling me anything I don't know already. I was there, I've read all the books on the production as well. TB was the first business model which set the studios releasing their tentpole movies in the summer. Before that it was always Christmas which was considered to be the prime time. What SW did was make studios invest more heavily into teen movies with special effects and release them in the summer. It gave the greenlight to Star Trek that had been sitting in development hell, flip-flopping from being a tv series to a movie and back again to a tv series. It gave life to sci-fi themed movies that studios thought too costly and too trite to invest in. Even Planet of the Apes suffered by ever decreasing budgets. Star Wars changed that (besides Bond of course) where the sequel would cost more than its predecessor. This was mostly down to Lucas making enough money from the first one to invest in it's sequel if the studio refused to back him. You also give the impression that it was mostly little toddlers that made SW a huge hit, when it was the teen market. Your belief that teenagers (or kids) wouldn't have known The Magnificent 7 is a prime example of this. Unfortunately for Disney, it wasn't attracting the teen market just the toddlers and parents, which was why they didn't have the same BO numbers as SW... and that their movies were also crap. Unless you're telling me that Grease, Airport, Towering Inferno, Jaws, etc, weren't blockbusters then my point still stands.
  • Posts: 2,917
    Point of interest--the book Some Kind of Hero notes that after the Heaven's Gate disaster MGM told EON that the budget would have to be reduced. So the decision to take BOnd back to basics was really made by Michael Cimino!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,298
    bondsum wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Well put. Star Wars brought the youth audience to the fore, so perhaps they were trying to keep the kids going back and back to the theater. (Most kids in '79 would not have seen The Magnificent Seven, though.)
    I'd argue Lucas had already done this before with American Graffiti in '73, which of course gave rise to Happy Days and Grease. Let's not also forget how many young adults also went to see SW, it wasn't just for kids. Not sure about your suggestion that not many kids wouldn't have seen The Magnificent Seven either. It was on TV as much as The Great Escape was. I think by the time MR came out, TM7 was pretty much ingrained in our national consciousness, unless you'd been living under a rock.

    Can't add much more on FYEO than @bondjames has done already. I still dislike the PTS and feel that a new Bond should have taken over, but hey-ho, can't change the past.
    bondsum wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    No. Star Wars changed the entire business model of the film industry. SW showed how much business could be gotten from repeat male teenager viewers--and blockbusters became squarely aimed at that demographic for generations. It continues through Marvel today.
    You're right when you say it changed the business model but only insofar as much as the merchandise tie-ins and how much they invested in its sequel. Repeat viewings? That was happening long before already with Bond and Disney. Plus, as I pointed out, Lucas had already had a huge hit with American Graffiti, considered to be the first of the YA (teen) movies. If he hadn't, then it was unlikely that 20th Century Fox would have considered making a sci-fi movie with him, albeit on a shoestring budget. Look, you're not telling me anything I don't know already. I was there, I've read all the books on the production as well. TB was the first business model which set the studios releasing their tentpole movies in the summer. Before that it was always Christmas which was considered to be the prime time. What SW did was make studios invest more heavily into teen movies with special effects and release them in the summer. It gave the greenlight to Star Trek that had been sitting in development hell, flip-flopping from being a tv series to a movie and back again to a tv series. It gave life to sci-fi themed movies that studios thought too costly and too trite to invest in. Even Planet of the Apes suffered by ever decreasing budgets. Star Wars changed that (besides Bond of course) where the sequel would cost more than its predecessor. This was mostly down to Lucas making enough money from the first one to invest in it's sequel if the studio refused to back him. You also give the impression that it was mostly little toddlers that made SW a huge hit, when it was the teen market. Your belief that teenagers (or kids) wouldn't have known The Magnificent 7 is a prime example of this. Unfortunately for Disney, it wasn't attracting the teen market just the toddlers and parents, which was why they didn't have the same BO numbers as SW... and that their movies were also crap. Unless you're telling me that Grease, Airport, Towering Inferno, Jaws, etc, weren't blockbusters then my point still stands.

    SW was a bigger blockbuster than any of those, and the game changer.

    The people who understood The Magnificent Seven reference are not the same audience (kids) who laughed at Jaws dropping the rock on his foot in TSWLM and all of his increased shenanigans in MR.
  • Posts: 787
    For me, the biggest problem with FYEO is tone.

    Lots have pointed out that it was an attempted 'course-correction' after the indulgence of MR. Fair enough - we open with Bond at the grave of his dead wife. But within the very same PTS, we've got Blofeld in a cervical collar offering to buy Bond a delicatessen. This is far, far too jarring: it's not like it's a little black humour, it's broad, stupid, needless humour that's built on the back of Tracy's death.

    Similarly, the hockey game does nothing for the dramatic stakes, but more than that, it simply doesn't make sense. Were these men sent to kill Bond? In hockey equipment? Why? It's played for laughs, but why? It all sits too awkwardly.

    The women are equally jarring: Melina, the tortured and vengeful daughter, the Countess who's fallen from grace, and . . . Bibi Dahl. Why is she in this film? How does she suit the tone or advance the plot?

    At close, a tormented Melina finally finds peace, and at the same time Bond threads the 'detente' needle with the Soviets. A solid ending. But then a parrot is on the phone with Thatcher? Why? How does that help advance things?

    Is this supposed to be 'grounded, brutal' Bond? Is it supposed to be a 'slap and tickle' romp?

    Above all, the biggest fix is for EON to decide what they want the film to be, and work from there.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    @octofinger, interesting points and I mostly agree although it doesn't affect me as much. I'd argue that the same issues afflict Dalton's two entries. It seems to me that EON weren't willing to fully commit to the 'grounded' and 'serious' Bond. At least not until Bourne demonstrated that the market was ready for it.
  • Posts: 1,917
    I'd also eliminate the Ferrara character, who is an unintentional version of Nigel Small-Fawcett before there was such a character.

    No point in his being a contact for Bond. He's introduces 007 to Kristatos and tell him what a reliable, wonderful guy he is, which goes really far in throwing us off that he's the real villain. Bond could've made contact by other means.

    They needed a sacrificial lamb, but Countess Lisl fits that role far better, why invent another? Wilson and Maibaum could've come up with another way of dropping the dove pin someplace to put Bond onto him.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I love Ferrara. And I like this film a whole lot. I think mainly the only thing I would change is the score. I love Roger's Bond in this, the locations, the story ... sure, pretty much all of it I would keep. But not the music.
  • Posts: 1,917
    I may be one of the few who really like Conti's music. There is nothing like a John Barry score, but Conti's seemed fresh at the time and I still enjoy listening to it.

    It's funny people complain often about Conti's score being too disco, when it also had a huge influence on Marvin Hamlisch's TSWLM score. He even admitted to listening to a lot of Bee Gees at the time. I don't hear anybody taking this score or him to task as a negative for that film.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2018 Posts: 23,883
    BT3366 wrote: »
    It's funny people complain often about Conti's score being too disco, when it also had a huge influence on Marvin Hamlisch's TSWLM score. He even admitted to listening to a lot of Bee Gees at the time. I don't hear anybody taking this score or him to task as a negative for that film.
    You're quite right that Hamlisch's score is quite disco, particularly during the ski and car chases, which is precisely what Conti did as well (during the same respective sequences).

    I just don't have a problem with Hamlisch's disco composition and find it quite 'funky', even now. It sounds like Saturday Night Fever in a way, and I love that track. The Conti compositions during the Citreon and ski sequences don't do it for me though. They don't have that same 'cool' & 'suspenseful' factor to my ears.

    I do like Conti's score during other parts of the film though. Particularly when Bond arrives at Cortina and goes up to his hotel (first class imho) and of course during the underwater St. George's sequence (the Bond theme track entitled Submarine). Also the piano bit when Loque and 'Charles Dance' are following him up on the ski lift to the jump.
  • Posts: 2,917
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I may be one of the few who really like Conti's music. There is nothing like a John Barry score, but Conti's seemed fresh at the time and I still enjoy listening to it.

    I agree entirely. Barry's past two scores were a little disappointing, and he didn't get his mojo back until AVTAK. Conti brought splashy liveliness back to Bond's musical world. Like Barry he wrote big, memorable, dramatic pulsing themes with eclectic instrumentation. Whereas Hamlisch couldn't fully combine disco with the big Bond sound, Conti pulled that off with a funkier edge, as shown below.

    "A Drive in the Country" is propulsive 80s synth-funk with a Spanish tinge (appropriate for the setting) that sinuously works in the Bond theme, and has that characteristically Contian mix of the romantic and the contemporary:


    "Runaway" amps up the big Bondian horns Barry had by then dropped for strings, and has a globetrotting, strutting, rich sound that screams "Bond!". I'm not surprised it was re-used in Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous. My college marching band used to play it too, with satisfyingly punchy results.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Like others I would lose the hockey fight and the submarine attack (unnecessary as the villains risk losing the ATAC altogether, when they know Bond is bringing it to the surface for them). These are added on to the end of already extensive action sequences.

    Edit them out and the film is all the better for it.
  • Posts: 7,419
    Agree also on the hockey fight. Totally unnecessary sequence. I also like Contis music, and wouldnt change it, just suits the film.
    I disagree 're the titles. I think Binder did well here and Eastons appearance was unique and well done, I like the theme too.
    FYEO is entertaining enough, though OP is better imho.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I'd also eliminate the Ferrara character, who is an unintentional version of Nigel Small-Fawcett before there was such a character.

    More like Inspector Clouseau.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Ferrara being a comic relief? That was new.
  • Posts: 15,117
    I would have made the PTS more consistent in tone: keep Blofeld, don't mention his name, but get rid of the stupid one liners and have Bond be more solemn killing him. Otherwise I wouldn't change much. Ok ditch the hockey fight as it's pretty useless.
  • Posts: 787
    Forgot to mention, there's of course plenty I wouldn't change about FYEO. Chief among them: the poster. That thing is bloody perfect.
  • Posts: 15,117
    octofinger wrote: »
    Forgot to mention, there's of course plenty I wouldn't change about FYEO. Chief among them: the poster. That thing is bloody perfect.

    I wish there was a shot in the movie like that in fact. The poster sells the film.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I don't mind the hockey fight, though I find it totally unimportant and would not mind it cut.

    I do find the music annoying and dated (not in a good way) at times. Mainly, I dislike a lot of disco (just my personal taste; though I do like a few songs) and during action sequences, especially I find it jarring. The title song is not bad. I find quite a lot of the music in FYEO annoying to me; really don't enjoy it.

    As for TSWLM, the score does have some music I don't care for. Loved that title song even more, though.

    Ferrara was fine and I did not find him too bumbling, no. His character gave Bond another warm comrade to lose and want to avenge. I like the side characters, supporting actors in this film.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,588
    Drop Bibi, that awful Conti score and Sheena Easton ohhh and the Citroen chase. Replace it with the Lotus.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Oh I really liked the Citroen chase. :) Bibi could go, but she'd need to be replaced and with that kind of character?
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,588
    Oh I really liked the Citroen chase. :) Bibi could go, but she'd need to be replaced and with that kind of character?

    No one. Just drop the figure skating part all together.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,298
    Oh I really liked the Citroen chase. :) Bibi could go, but she'd need to be replaced and with that kind of character?

    No one. Just drop the figure skating part all together.

    Not a bad idea at all. Like most Bond films, FYEO could stand to lose at least 10 minutes.
  • Posts: 1,917
    octofinger wrote: »
    Forgot to mention, there's of course plenty I wouldn't change about FYEO. Chief among them: the poster. That thing is bloody perfect.
    This could be another thread topic elsewhere. Some of those of us around back when FYEO came out can recall what a controversial subject that poster was. A lot of newspapers advertising the film cropped that picture, airbrushed shorts on her and other modifications or, let's just say it, censorship.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 2,917
    The poster has always looked crass to my eyes. And it would degrading to Melina's character to imagine an actual shot of her in that thong from that camera position. Yes, Bond films offer shapely female forms to the audience, but there's no need for the posters to scream "T & A!!!!" (or at least "A!!!!!").
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Well, I think if we lost Bibi we would need one more female character is all I'm saying. She wouldn't have to be a skater. :) Anyway, I wouldn't really change much in this film; I enjoy it a lot. I'd be happy with just different music.
  • Posts: 3,333
    Revelator wrote: »
    Point of interest--the book Some Kind of Hero notes that after the Heaven's Gate disaster MGM told EON that the budget would have to be reduced. So the decision to take BOnd back to basics was really made by Michael Cimino!
    Yes, I pointed this out before as I remember the whole fiasco unfolding at the time and knew the stripped back Bond had nothing to do with getting back to basics, but more of a case of being told to cut out the extravagance.
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