007: What would you have done differently?

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  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Considering TND is the greatest Bond film ever made, I wouldn’t change much. I’d recast Paris, but that’s pretty much it.
    +1

    May I ask how old you two are?

    I loved TND as a teenager but like it less as a 30-something adult.

    That’s the problem I have with TND - it’s a Bond film for teenagers.
    I'm in my mid-20s. The film never lost its magic on me, and gets better with each viewing.

    The only alteration I'd ever do with TND is to film the alternate script written by Feirstein. Other than that, I wouldn't change a thing. I'd also use a better actress than Michelle Yeoh for Wai Lin. Lucy Liu for example.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    I am also in my mid-20s. I’ll second the replacement of Michelle Yeoh as well.
  • edited June 2018 Posts: 11,189
    I'd also improve this fight and tell them both (particularly Gotz Otto) to hold back on the mugging.

    Again as a teenager this fight was gripping. Now it looks pretty bad - but I do like the music.

  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    I forgot about the fight choreography. Yes, I'd change that vastly, as well. Brosnan was swinging punches like a wuss in TND and had his rear handed to him by a mere security guard on that platform above the printing machine. What happened to the man who wrestled like a titan with Alec in GE? That's my only main complaint when it comes to TND and the rest of his films.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I'd also improve this fight and tell them both (particularly Gotz Otto) to hold back on the mugging.

    Again as a teenager this fight was gripping. Now it looks pretty bad - but I do like the music.

    Oh dear. This is one of the most distressing scenes in this film for me. First we have Brosnan twirling the machine gun like it's some toy. Then there's Carver delivering his pathetic comic book lines in an exaggerated manner.

    I've always felt he could and should have jumped out of the way of the drill as it was approaching. There was more than enough space.

    "It's over Stamper. Let her go". Oh my. What happened here I have no idea.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I'd also improve this fight and tell them both (particularly Gotz Otto) to hold back on the mugging.

    Again as a teenager this fight was gripping. Now it looks pretty bad - but I do like the music.

    I've always felt he could and should have jumped out of the way of the drill as it was approaching. There was more than enough space.

    I would have liked it if Bond had kicked him into the approaching drill.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I'd also improve this fight and tell them both (particularly Gotz Otto) to hold back on the mugging.

    Again as a teenager this fight was gripping. Now it looks pretty bad - but I do like the music.

    I've always felt he could and should have jumped out of the way of the drill as it was approaching. There was more than enough space.
    I would have liked it if Bond had kicked him into the approaching drill.
    A la Sanchez. I would've loved that.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I'd also improve this fight and tell them both (particularly Gotz Otto) to hold back on the mugging.

    Again as a teenager this fight was gripping. Now it looks pretty bad - but I do like the music.

    I've always felt he could and should have jumped out of the way of the drill as it was approaching. There was more than enough space.
    I would have liked it if Bond had kicked him into the approaching drill.
    A la Sanchez. I would've loved that.
    +2. That would definitely have been much better.
  • Posts: 1,917
    I may be the only one who doesn't mind the title Tomorrow Never Dies. No, it doesn't make a bit of sense, but even when you consider the alternative it isn't great either. How many audience members really paid attention that Tomorrow is the name of Carver's paper? It just sounds flat.
  • Posts: 1,548
    Recast Carver with original choice Tony Hopkins.
  • Posts: 4,044
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    Recast Carver with original choice Tony Hopkins.

    But they did cast him. Didn't Hopkins turn up to work and then walk off when he saw the state of things?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    I'd also use a better actress than Michelle Yeoh for Wai Lin. Lucy Liu for example.
    At the time it came out, Michelle was the hottest actress in Hong Kong movies. And I happen to love both her, and her chemistry with Brosnan. So there! ;)
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    chrisisall wrote: »
    I'd also use a better actress than Michelle Yeoh for Wai Lin. Lucy Liu for example.
    At the time it came out, Michelle was the hottest actress in Hong Kong movies. And I happen to love both her, and her chemistry with Brosnan. So there! ;)
    I still like her, old boy. :D
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    Seeing that you have a nice suit, a Tuxedo, in fact, you must have seen Supercop. ;)
  • edited June 2018 Posts: 12,837
    Honestly the first half of TND is pretty great imo, there isn't a lot I'd change. It's slick, the set up is great (48 hours to investigate), Carver is a fun villain, the Bond/Paris relationship is interesting, some of the action is very good (sloppy fist fighting bit aside, I love the printing press escape), and it's just a lot of fun. Old school, formulaic Bond at its best. Most of my problems with it come after Hamburg but anyway this is what I'd change

    - It's a little thing but I'd change the music on the gunbarrel when the blood is dripping to the actual main bit of the theme instead of those notes at the end. I prefer it that way.

    - Make the theme song Surrender.

    - Hamburg isn't the most exotic of locations. Not sure if that's just because of how they filmed it but the original script had a masked ball in Venice instead of the more generic press launch. I think that would have been cool.

    - Recast Paris. Belluci like Brosnan wanted would have been perfect.

    - Haha, the UK going to war with China, that'd end well. Make it America. The CIA could ask to send in Bond because of his link with Paris.

    - Do more with the 48 hours thing, hype up how WW3 is about to kick off. The set up makes it feel proper urgent, even the briefing takes place in a speeding car, but once Bond gets to Hamburg I think that sense of urgency is lost.

    - Do more to set Stamper apart. Give him some sort of gimmick or make him look different or something. We didn't need another big blonde European henchman. Maybe make him and Dr Kauffman one character? Bond could stun him with the phone in the hotel room then escape. He could still kill him at the end with the "me too" line. Might make it even more satisfying if the film builds up to it.

    - I agree on the fight scenes. Brosnan might not have been naturally handy but he still looked great in the GE ones because they had better direction/coreography so I do think this is easily fixable.

    - Tone down the action massively in the second half. Trim the bike chase and make the finale more interesting. Bond stabbing the guy with the combat knife and using the dead body to fake his death is cool, so is the trick with the grenade. But there's too much mindless shooting and explosions imo. I actually love those sorts of action films but Bond should be more high concept and inventive than that.

    - Michelle Yeoh is always great but Wai Lin isn't very fleshed out, she's quite generic and one dimensional imo. I also think that there wasn't much sexual chemistry between her and Brosnan so I think a better ending would have been them parting as mates, like Camille in QoS. They worked well together but Bond doesn't have to shag every woman he meets.

    - Carver's death is a bit awkward I think, like the film didn't know what to do with him. Someone on here suggested a much better fate for him: he lives and gets captured, then his arrest, trial, etc becomes big news. His life is ruined, his empire has been taken down and his face and his failure is plastered all over the media.

    I think that's about it. I don't hate TND but I don't love it either. I don't think it's as good as GE and TWINE and I actually prefer DAD these days. At least that does more to set itself apart and even in it's dumbest moments is really out there, full of high concept and memorable stuff. TND just feels like a generic 90s action movie by the end.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited June 2018 Posts: 15,423
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Seeing that you have a nice suit, a Tuxedo, in fact, you must have seen Supercop. ;)
    One with Mr. Devlin's assistant in it, and the followup without him in it. ;)

    Both starring the lovely Miss Yeoh.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Here we go, most of these have been mentioned-

    Aside form the childish humor I'd leave the first half pretty much alone. I also really like Bond's stealth kills, and the Halo Jump.

    -Use K.D. Lang's track as the Title Song.
    Absolutely.
    -Eliminate the remote control car, as others and I have mentioned, it is very unBondian.
    Same basic scene, but with Bond actually driving once he hops in.
    -I do life Jonathan Pryce as Carver, but his ingenuity and guile needs to carry through throughout the film. The last third needed a bigger scheme and an intellectual challenge for Bond. And he needs a far more interesting death.
    Can't disagree here.
    -The "Rambo" Bond began with GE and keeps on building here. I hate the whole "one man vs and army" crap; that was never a part of Bond until Brosnan (obviously being influenced by the Stallone/Schwartzenegger phenomena. But Bond films are best when not aimed at children. Lest shoot 'em up[, more spy work.
    Agreed. Endless shooting is boring.
    -I like Teri Hatcher as Paris, so I'd leave her alone. And i do like Michelle Yeoh, but she has absolutely no chemistry with Pierce. Either cut out all of their forced repartee, or recast the part. And the character needs far less screen time, as well. This is a Bond film.
    Disagree here, but then I love the actress... ;)
    -For once in a Bond film, can bodies that have been in water for days or weeks look like they've been in water for days or weeks.
    Ewwwwue, gross! But, yeah.
    -Eliminate all of the sophomoric puns and innuendos between Bond, M and Moneypenny; it is ridiculous, and hard to get through.
    Nope. As an arrested adolescent I love all that.
    -Keep in the bits about Gupta and the throwing cards.
    Would have been very cool. An added dimension. Never should have been trimmed.
    -And, yes, Stamper could be taken more seriously if he didn't appear to be just another blonde, Red Grant knock-off (visually).
    A little more attention to the character in the writing stage would have been nice, but I still like him as a henchman.
    -That's pretty much it.
    One last thing for me- an extension of the scene where Carver orders a visit from the doctor for his wife. Where after he sits down in a chair, turns the light next to him off, and begins to sob quietly in the darkness. Would have upped the creepy IMO.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I prefer to thinkbhe never cared for her beyond a possession.
    I think it might have established that at one time he was a person of some worth, and that that's why Paris fell for him. Before his descent into obsessive madness. Kind of a tragic note.

  • Posts: 628
    I would have canned Bruce Feirstein and brought Donald Westlake back to the production to do a page one rewrite.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Now, while I would never dream of doing that as I like Feirstein a lot, Westlake's Forever and A Death was a terrific novel. I could very well see it as a Bond film with Brosnan in mind.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Now, while I would never dream of doing that as I like Feirstein a lot, Westlake's Forever and A Death was a terrific novel. I could very well see it as a Bond film with Brosnan in mind.

    Sounds like the kind of title that would suit his era as well.
  • Posts: 3,333
    Now, while I would never dream of doing that as I like Feirstein a lot, Westlake's Forever and A Death was a terrific novel. I could very well see it as a Bond film with Brosnan in mind.
    I'm glad both you and @Escalus5 have brought up Westlake's Forever and A Death novel. Apparently Westlake turned into Eon two treatments for “Bond 18.” Both his treatments apparently used as their backdrop Hong Kong’s transfer of sovereignty to China. I believe Forever and A Death was one of the ideas he submitted. The big threat is an oscillating wave – a soliton – which is the root cause of tsunamis in the reworked posthumous novel for those unfamiliar with Westlake's idea.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited June 2018 Posts: 14,582
    Love this film. I can never decide whether TND or GE is the better Broz film, but I tend to sway in the direction of TND, perhaps biased due to it being the first one I saw on the big screen. Much like Toby Steven's Gustav, I really enjoy Pryce's OTT Carver, and don't have a problem with the Paris character - but I agree with others here that Broz was just having too much fun in the back seat of the BMW so soon after her death. Perhaps it would've been more interesting to see Bond p!ssed off all throughout the car chase. There might've been more of an impact when disposing of the henchmen, and seem less cartoony.

    The PTS is probably my favourite out of them all, and speaking of which (and more to the topic), the only thing I would change (add) is in the opening minutes: The folding rifle Bond carries was custom made/modified for the film, with the intention of showing Bond unfolding it before unleashing chaos on the terrorists. Whether that scene was actually filmed or not, I'm not entirely sure. I thought that perhaps SP's rooftop scene in Mexico with Bond preparing the Glock with laser mic was an attempt to include the scene.

    https://kudosmemorabilia.com/collections/heroes-of-cinema/james-bonds-prop-ar18-assault-rifle
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    They should have added the pedestrians that were crushed down on the street when Bond steers the car over the edge. A mom with her kids perhaps.

  • Posts: 11,189
    Bond warned them by beeping the horn. Their own fault.
  • edited June 2018 Posts: 2,918
    They should have added the pedestrians that were crushed down on the street when Bond steers the car over the edge. A mom with her kids perhaps.

    And one of the kids survives and vows revenge on Bond when he reaches adulthood. Two decades later he battles Daniel Craig in Bond 25, Collateral Damage.

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Revelator wrote: »
    They should have added the pedestrians that were crushed down on the street when Bond steers the car over the edge. A mom with her kids perhaps.

    And one of the kids survives and vows revenge on Bond when he reaches adulthood. Two decades later he battles Daniel Craig in Bond 25, Collateral Damage.

    And Ahhhnold Schwarzenegger and his producers sue.
  • edited June 2018 Posts: 2,918
    Ah, but titles can't be copyrighted!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The surviving kid grows up to be Mr Big.
  • mybudgetbondmybudgetbond The World
    Posts: 189
    This is the first Bond film I saw in the cinema when I was 16. I had been a Bond fan for 5 years at that point. (I missed Goldeneye in the cinema because I kept waiting for a friend to come see it with me, and he kept putting it off so I missed it in the end.)

    Unfortunately this was the film that put me off new Bond films until 2006. I was so bored during it I actually got out my phone to text people ( I know, I know an unforgivable act, but it was in the early days of mobile phones and I never did it again).

    Not a Pierce fan unfortunately. The next film was an improvement, but these films (especially this one) reek too much of generic 90's actioners.
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