007: What would you have done differently?

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  • On that note I think we can safely move onto DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER.

    IMG_3156.jpg

    Again, this is your chance to say whatever you would have done differently with the film, so things like; plot changes, character additions or subtractions. Anything you like. People will be given the chance to give their responses within 7 DAYS from today (this may change so let me know if you want me to extend the time for longer) until the discussion moves on to the next James Bond film. This will run until we reach SKYFALL as a discussion for SPECTRE already exists.

    Looking forward to hearing what you guys think.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Cut out the characters of Whyte, and Bambi and Thumper. Give Wint and Kidd more screen time instead.

    And Blofeld in drag is unworthy. A disguise is fine, but think of something better.

    There are also a few gadgets too much, rat trap in pocket, voice distorter, slot machine ring.

    The oil rig finale is also pretty bad. Other than that, fun movie as a follow-up to YOLT.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    edited March 2018 Posts: 9,032
    Clean up the editing mess that rendered much of the action incomprehensible, especially regarding the demise of Plenty. No one can understand why she ends up in that pool without further explanation, to be derived only from backstories of the production.

    The Mustang problem (miraculously changing the tilt to the other side while going through an alley too narrow for doing this) is another one that may be minor overall, but shows a total and deplorable sloppyness on the part of the producers. So, by the way, is the unnecessarily and literally repeated text in the initial explanation of the issue by Sir What's-his-name (don't feel like looking it up right now). Isn't anyone checking the product before final release?

    Why is there light inside a coffin about to be incinerated and inside a pipeline buried underground?

    I'd probably find more issues but stop thinking of them for now. All in all, while I find the dialogue to be among the funniest of the series, a total mess due to nobody really caring to make it consistent.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Clean up the editing mess that rendered much of the action incomprehensible, especially regarding the demise of Plenty. No one can understand why she ends up in that pool without further explanation, to be derived only from backstories of the production.

    The Mustang problem (miraculously changing the tilt to the other side while going through an alley too narrow for doing this) is another one that may be minor overall, but shows a total and deplorable sloppyness on the part of the producers. So, by the way, is the unnecessarily and literally repeated text in the initial explanation of the issue by Sir What's-his-name (don't feel like looking it up right now). IsnÄt anyone checing the product before final release?

    Why is there light inside a coffin about to be incinerated and inside a pipeline buried underground?

    I'd probably find more issues but stop thinking of them for now. All in all, while I find the dialogueto be among the funniest of the series, a total mess due to nobody really caring to make it consistent.

    All good points.
  • --Bond and MI6 staging an accident with a rail coach car full of corpses.

    ...

    https://hmssweblog.wordpress.com/2018/03/26/ohmss-script-train-of-the-dead-other-surprises/
    Enjoyed reading that account of Maibaum's script development, @AlexanderWaverly. Still, I'm not understanding the concept of the staging of a train accident with real corpses. Maybe why it wasn't filmed.

    Bond and MI6 were afraid Blofeld would be suspicious if Phidan simply died. So they made it look like he died in a train wreck with other people. Hence, the train car full of dead bodies.

    The remnant of the idea is in the film with the newspaper headline about 19 people dying in a train wreck.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Good points on DAF so far. I'm in agreement for the most part. I quite like the film and so don't have too many suggestions. Given what they paid Connery, I would have insisted he lose a few pounds and be a bit more presentable and credible physically for his official swansong, and I would have sacked his hairstylist and gotten someone who could install a proper toupee and dye out the greys. Oh, and trim those eyebrows for pete's sake!
  • edited March 2018 Posts: 2,115
    bondjames wrote: »
    Good points on DAF so far. I'm in agreement for the most part. I quite like the film and so don't have too many suggestions. Given what they paid Connery, I would have insisted he lose a few pounds and be a bit more presentable and credible physically for his official swansong, and I would have sacked his hairstylist and gotten someone who could install a proper toupee and dye out the greys. Oh, and trim those eyebrows for pete's sake!

    David Picker at United Artists was so desperate to get Connery back, there's no way he'd argue with him about weight, etc. Broccoli and Saltzman were prepared to move on from Big Tam. It was Picker who forced the issue. The hair stylists wanted fuller hairpieces. Big Tam wanted smaller ones. Put another way: Don't blame the hair stylists (people with limited influence) for doing what their bosses wanted.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited March 2018 Posts: 6,299
    Anyone want to give some more feedback before we move on?

    Just to note the script had things different than the film.

    --Foot chase with Sir Hilary's assistant, secretly working for Blofeld.

    --Bond and MI6 staging an accident with a rail coach car full of corpses.

    --Changes of dialogue in key scenes.

    https://hmssweblog.wordpress.com/2018/03/26/ohmss-script-train-of-the-dead-other-surprises/

    The train of corpses is a terrible idea.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I wouldn't have Blofeld flirt with Tracy. He should be asexual and too smart to fall for this.

    But it's one of the best scenes in the film! By casting someone as virile as Savalas and as clever as Rigg, it is movie magic. And Rigg's Tracy quoting poetry makes a lot more sense than say, M, in SF.
    Cut out the characters of Whyte, and Bambi and Thumper. Give Wint and Kidd more screen time instead.

    And Blofeld in drag is unworthy. A disguise is fine, but think of something better.

    There are also a few gadgets too much, rat trap in pocket, voice distorter, slot machine ring.

    The oil rig finale is also pretty bad. Other than that, fun movie as a follow-up to YOLT.

    Blofeld's drag doesn't bother me (especially if it were a truly tense manhunt, why not masquerade as a woman?), although Gray plays it as campy.

    The film needed more Wint and Kidd, for sure. I would have preferred them be tougher, like the kicking scene from the novel.

    I'd get rid of the moon landing/moon buggy nonsense.

    Come to think of it, I'd have preferred a straightforward "shutting down the pipeline" narrative (which is pretty effective in the film), rather than the over-the-top laser random plot.

    More like Blofeld needs to collect the diamonds to finance a bigger scheme.

    I think the Lake Mead/salt mine chase would have been a lot better than what we got. I'm not sure why they ended up in the salt mine, though...
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Clean up the editing mess that rendered much of the action incomprehensible, especially regarding the demise of Plenty. No one can understand why she ends up in that pool without further explanation, to be derived only from backstories of the production.

    The Mustang problem (miraculously changing the tilt to the other side while going through an alley too narrow for doing this) is another one that may be minor overall, but shows a total and deplorable sloppyness on the part of the producers. So, by the way, is the unnecessarily and literally repeated text in the initial explanation of the issue by Sir What's-his-name (don't feel like looking it up right now). Isn't anyone checking the product before final release?

    Why is there light inside a coffin about to be incinerated and inside a pipeline buried underground?

    I couldn't agree more. The Plenty scenes and the coffin scene never made sense.

    I don't mind Vegas as a setting because it really was an adult playground back then, and exotic enough. But get rid of all the nonsense in Circus Circus. So dumb.

    If ever a Bond film deserved a proper casino sequence, it's DAF.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2018 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    Good points on DAF so far. I'm in agreement for the most part. I quite like the film and so don't have too many suggestions. Given what they paid Connery, I would have insisted he lose a few pounds and be a bit more presentable and credible physically for his official swansong, and I would have sacked his hairstylist and gotten someone who could install a proper toupee and dye out the greys. Oh, and trim those eyebrows for pete's sake!

    David Picker at United Artists was so desperate to get Connery back, there's no way he'd argue with him about weight, etc. Broccoli and Saltzman were prepared to move on from Big Tam. It was Picker who forced the issue. The hair stylists wanted fuller hairpieces. Big Tam wanted smaller ones. Put another way: Don't blame the hair stylists (people with limited influence) for doing what their bosses wanted.
    Wow, I didn't know any of this. I'm glad Picker stuck with Connery, otherwise we probably wouldn't have had Moore in LALD and we may have had years of Gavin films. Goes to show that EON sometimes should defer to the studio. However, it also shows that it's not always a good idea to give your lead too much power over matters (particularly when it comes to presentation).

    Hopefully it pays off again in 2019 (and this time I certainly hope EON insist on weight loss and whatever else it takes to be presentable including better tailored suits).
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,792
    A quick carry-over for an On Her Majesty's Secret Service item.
    CrzChris4 wrote: »
    2. Include the part of the novel where Bond uses his watch as a weapon.
    The John McLusky version.
    comic-03-04.jpg
  • Posts: 2,917
    Lots of stuff worth changing in DAF, but I'd mainly stick closer to the book, whose structure would work better onscreen than on the page.
    * Make Wint and Kidd more menacing (perhaps include the Tingaling Bell scene from the book).
    * Get rid of that dull oil rig finale! Use Spectreville and the train chase, but with some extra action.
    * Don't film the damn thing after OHMSS! No Blofeld or Spectre, just use the mob and Spang twins from the book, and correct Fleming's mistake by giving them more screentime and more evil deeds.
    * Cast a better actress as Tiffany Case and make her the vulnerable, richly drawn character Fleming gave us, not a silly bimbo.
    * Let Peter Hunt direct. Or anyone who isn't named Guy Hamilton.
    * No Bambi and Thumper, no Willard Whyte, no interminable scenes at Circus Circus.
  • Posts: 16,163
    Not much I would change about DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER. I do think the Lake Mead climax, Hoover Dam sequence probably would have been more exciting than what we got. That said, I'll take the arguably limp finale aboard the oil rig over every climax after GE any day.

    As popular as it is here to wish for a Lazenby revenge themed DAF, I don't really like that idea. I'm glad Sean came back and I find his performance here great. I wouldn't ant George or Roger in this one, really. Though I am a bit curious what Gavin might have done, but not enough to sacrifice a 6th Connery outing.

    As for his appearance, being cast so late in the game after 4 years of taking roles that strayed away from the Bond image, I think he looked fine. Sure he didn't have time to get back into THUNDERBALL shape, but he still looks strong and imposing. In addition I think many of his suits, tailored to his bigger physique compliment him. I do think a toupee similar to what he would later wear in CUBA would have flattered him more. Bond in DIAMONDS looks like he hasn't had a trim in awhile.

    Overall I love DAF the way it is, and it hits the spot whenever I pop it in.
  • edited April 2018 Posts: 15,118
    @echo Diana Rigg does well but it's out of character for Blofeld. I never liked that bit. Even though I love OHMSS.
    Revelator wrote: »
    Lots of stuff worth changing in DAF, but I'd mainly stick closer to the book, whose structure would work better onscreen than on the page.
    * Make Wint and Kidd more menacing (perhaps include the Tingaling Bell scene from the book).
    * Get rid of that dull oil rig finale! Use Spectreville and the train chase, but with some extra action.
    * Don't film the damn thing after OHMSS! No Blofeld or Spectre, just use the mob and Spang twins from the book, and correct Fleming's mistake by giving them more screentime and more evil deeds.
    * Cast a better actress as Tiffany Case and make her the vulnerable, richly drawn character Fleming gave us, not a silly bimbo.
    * Let Peter Hunt direct. Or anyone who isn't named Guy Hamilton.
    * No Bambi and Thumper, no Willard Whyte, no interminable scenes at Circus Circus.

    That's pretty much it. They could have kept the PTS maybe, to bring some closure to the events of the first movie but I guess they wanted to keep Blofeld.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    I agree with @Revelator 's points.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Walecs wrote: »
    I agree with @Revelator 's points.

    Me too. They're well put.
  • Posts: 15,118
    It's ironic that many want Willard Whyte out as he was the very starting point of the movie's plot.
  • Tom Mankiewicz, after taking over for Richard Maibaum, had more elements from the novel in his first draft.

    --It was Q (!) who smuggled the *real* diamonds -- inside of golf balls.
    --Tiffany's real hair color was blonde.
    --Line from Tiffany: "And Franks, for God’s sake, don’t come up with any lousy ideas like hollow golf balls or wooden legs."

    Details (scroll down to the Diamonds Are Forever section)
    https://hmssweblog.wordpress.com/hmss-archive-the-bond-too-big-for-007/
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It's ironic that many want Willard Whyte out as he was the very starting point of the movie's plot.

    At least get another actor and rewrite the dialogue. Someone with the same function is welcome to stay.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It's ironic that many want Willard Whyte out as he was the very starting point of the movie's plot.

    That's what I thought too. In fact, the genesis of the finished film script was Cubby Broccoli's dream about the Howard Hughes imposter. So, we still need Willard Whyte. It's the catalyst for the rest of the film.
  • Posts: 15,118
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It's ironic that many want Willard Whyte out as he was the very starting point of the movie's plot.

    That's what I thought too. In fact, the genesis of the finished film script was Cubby Broccoli's dream about the Howard Hughes imposter. So, we still need Willard Whyte. It's the catalyst for the rest of the film.

    Well it's not. I mean someone could have said: let's ditch this imposter idea and do something much closer to the novel.They could have used the imposter plot when they'd ran out of Fleming stories. It's not a bad starting point per se. It just does not work well with DAF.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,209
    bondjames wrote: »
    Good points on DAF so far. I'm in agreement for the most part. I quite like the film and so don't have too many suggestions. Given what they paid Connery, I would have insisted he lose a few pounds and be a bit more presentable and credible physically for his official swansong, and I would have sacked his hairstylist and gotten someone who could install a proper toupee and dye out the greys. Oh, and trim those eyebrows for pete's sake!

    Yes, Yes and YES to this entire post. There was no reason Sean could not have looked basically the same as he did in Thunderball.

  • Posts: 17,756
    bondjames wrote: »
    Good points on DAF so far. I'm in agreement for the most part. I quite like the film and so don't have too many suggestions. Given what they paid Connery, I would have insisted he lose a few pounds and be a bit more presentable and credible physically for his official swansong, and I would have sacked his hairstylist and gotten someone who could install a proper toupee and dye out the greys. Oh, and trim those eyebrows for pete's sake!

    50-bond-diamonds-are-forever-salary-21.jpg?w=720&h=480&crop=1

    Trim those eyebrows? «You're joking!» In all seriousness, they annoy me, as well. So much that it's probably the thing that I like the least about the film! Trimmed eyebrows, and he'd look 5-7 years younger, no matter his overall fitness.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Imagine if Roger Moore had had those eyebrows.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,209
    Imagine if Roger Moore had had those eyebrows.

    It would require some effort to raise one. :D


  • edited April 2018 Posts: 17,756
    Imagine if Roger Moore had had those eyebrows.

    Roger Moore with those eyebrows would have won an Oscar. Wouldn't find a more expressive performance than that!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    To be fair to King Sean the unkempt look appeared to have been in during the early 70s, so perhaps he thought he was just keeping with the times. Most of the characters in DAF have a rather disheveled appearance. His bushy brows are indeed almost as legendary as Moore's raised ones.

    HQYipmL.jpg
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,209
    Towards the later 70s, with The Great Train Robbery, and onward, he appears to have again reigned them in.
  • edited April 2018 Posts: 17,756
    talos7 wrote: »
    Towards the later 70s, with The Great Train Robbery, and onward, he appears to have again reigned them in.

    Yes, he must have done. Here's two shots from more or less the same angle. The difference is huge:
    33924-diamonds2bare2bforever.jpg
    nsna02.jpg
  • Posts: 1,917
    One thing I don't think anybody who complains about the return of Blofeld and DAF not being a direct sequel to OHMSS ever brings up:

    Had Eon gone ahead with its original plan to use Goldfinger's twin brother as the villain with a completely different scheme, would they have even made the effort to make it appear Bond is avenging her death in the pre-credits or would they have ignored it completely?
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Though I am a bit curious what Gavin might have done, but not enough to sacrifice a 6th Connery outing.
    In a similar way I'm a bit curious to see what would have happened if Hitler had won the war, but not enough to sacrifice civilisation living under the yoke of Nazism.

    Some alternative histories go down as narrow escapes from oblivion which is exactly what Gavin would've been; although James Brolin an even closer shave with Bondian Armageddon. The doomsday clock came exceedingly close to midnight on both of those; effectively the Cuban Missile Crisis of the series when we really were on the brink.
    BT3366 wrote: »
    One thing I don't think anybody who complains about the return of Blofeld and DAF not being a direct sequel to OHMSS ever brings up:

    Had Eon gone ahead with its original plan to use Goldfinger's twin brother as the villain with a completely different scheme, would they have even made the effort to make it appear Bond is avenging her death in the pre-credits or would they have ignored it completely?
    Interesting point. Was the only reason this was binned because Frobe wouldn't do it?

    It's so very easy to castigate Babs for the shambles of SP when Cubby and Harry were happy to make some utterly ludicrous decisions too. I'm sure we all remember Harry and the elephant shoes?

    I do think Babs gets a hard time of it when they tend to get something of a free pass at times. Not that that's going to stop me laying into her. And at least the elephant shoes didn't make it to the screen to be fair - unlike brothergate.
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