So if Blofeld returns for Bond #25? How should we bring him back effectively?

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I can't see them doing a prison break. Photos from the set of the upcoming MI suggest they will take this approach with that film. Given how similar the plots were the last time, I'd strongly advise against this course of action.

    The better approach (given how much darn time will have passed in real life since the events of SP) is to move the timeline forward TDKR style (yes, I realize that would mean another crib from the go-to Nolan series, but still).
    Milovy wrote: »
    M: "If only you had killed him when you had a chance! Now thanks to you, we're in this bloody mess and the 00 section is under review again. Until you sort out this Blofeld nonsense, you are suspended. Now go to Q branch to steal some gadgets."
    I know you're jesting, but honestly I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of these suggestions makes it into the film.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Then, yes, lets FF, @bondjames and have Bond "retired"; living off the grid, seducing married women during the day, drinking and gambling at night... I'd love that... Have him forced back into, as Jospeh Campbell used to say, the "call to adventure"...

    On a connected note:

    @noSolaceleft has to understand that nothing is truly "unique" or "original" in storytelling. Mythology is born from the telling and re-telling of the same stories; that all great stories, from Shakespeare (influenced by Greek and Roman tragedy/comedy), to Star Wars, to Rocky to Bond is always influenced by what came before.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I prefer your last suggestion @peter, and believe this is the more likely direction they will take even if they already pulled that stunt to an extent in SF. I think I recall reading somewhere that Babs was impressed with Logan's success, so I'm curious to see what they come up with, even if not overly excited.

    Regarding 'storytelling', yes I agree. The same applies to 'design' to an extent. The trick is not to make it seem predictable, cliched, stereotypical, trite or overly familiar. That is where the real skill lies. Very few hit the mark, even as audience expectations increase with each new offering. Moreover with streaming, blu rays and what not, today's audience is more familiar than ever with prior films because they are so readily accessible. So a film maker has to be quite adept at repackaging things in interesting and unique ways. People want to 'feel' the same way they did when they encountered an earlier film which moved them. That too takes real skill to create a theatre experience which is memorable and uniquely moving, even if the narrative is rehashed to a degree.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    I think they could make a mixture of "The silence of the lamb" and the "the empire strikes back". What I mean is make Blofeld great again. Let him be the mastermind behind some big trouble that happens while he is still inprisoned. Let him be mi6's only chance to find out about the villains' plan. I would actually even appreciate an ending where Blofeld escapes, fulfills his plan and even kills Swan. A bit like an OHMSS ending. Make Blofeld succeed in this film to give space for a "Return of the mi6 agents" in Bond 26.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 4,603
    OK, an alternative to retirement or "off grid" and an option that was not there for the books. There is a whole industry now based around ex-spies, intel experts, cryber crime geeks working within the private sector but having (or implying) links to security services and doing "research" on topics all over the World. It would be interresting to see Bond in this environment (not off grid but working for a private "risk consultancy"), he would hate the corporate business speak and whole culture (nice opportunity for good dialogue and he would hate his company car and lack of PPK). But, later, we see the reveal that he is under cover and still working for M and his move to the private sector is an undercover plan to gain access to the private sector contacts/infrastructure to establish if they do have anything of interest.

    Initially see him doing this work fits in with the end of SP as it appears he is turning his back on his career so bluffing the audience on this maybe a nice trick. It would also give him access to some interesting characters re other retired agents.(plus the back story of DC himself retiring from the role)

    Nothing to do with Blofeld, sorry for drift
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    Is anyone interested in seeing more of the Spectre members that were seated at the table during the Rome meeting? They seemed to be prominent members of the organization and yet we don't know much about them.

    Could one (or more) of them be due for a major role in Bond 25? Assuming that they weren't present at Blofeld's lair near the end of SP. Do they have unused potential or would you rather forget about them?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    pachazo wrote: »
    Is anyone interested in seeing more of the Spectre members that were seated at the table during the Rome meeting? They seemed to be prominent members of the organization and yet we don't know much about them.

    Could one (or more) of them be due for a major role in Bond 25? Assuming that they weren't present at Blofeld's lair near the end of SP. Do they have unused potential or would you rather forget about them?
    I like the idea, but unfortunately none of those individuals seemed remotely interesting or memorable. The only one with a slice of charisma was Guerra, and he had his eyes gouged out and neck snapped.
    patb wrote: »
    OK, an alternative to retirement or "off grid" and an option that was not there for the books. There is a whole industry now based around ex-spies, intel experts, cryber crime geeks working within the private sector but having (or implying) links to security services and doing "research" on topics all over the World. It would be interresting to see Bond in this environment (not off grid but working for a private "risk consultancy"), he would hate the corporate business speak and whole culture (nice opportunity for good dialogue and he would hate his company car and lack of PPK).
    That's the direction Homeland has gone in. It could work, but may be a bit dull for a two hour entry with audience expectations for explosions and mayhem.
    GBF wrote: »
    I think they could make a mixture of "The silence of the lamb" and the "the empire strikes back". What I mean is make Blofeld great again. Let him be the mastermind behind some big trouble that happens while he is still inprisoned. Let him be mi6's only chance to find out about the villains' plan.
    I've suggested that myself in the past, and like that idea.
  • Posts: 1,162
    peter wrote: »
    On a connected note:

    @noSolaceleft has to understand that nothing is truly "unique" or "original" in storytelling. Mythology is born from the telling and re-telling of the same stories; that all great stories, from Shakespeare (influenced by Greek and Roman tragedy/comedy), to Star Wars, to Rocky to Bond is always influenced by what came before.

    So anyone who strives for originality and feels he has to give something new to justify being a writer (or whatever creative) is bound to fail anyway?
    I can't tell you how glad I am that all the writers and filmmakers that enriched my childhood, youth and adulthood didn't adhere to your theories. I quite often read those arguments here in the forum ( especially when it comes to Mendes, SF and SP but all I can tell you is you giving them a free pass for simply lacking talent.)
    When Jonathan Demme made The silence of the lambs he didn't sit down and said to himself "well how do I rip of Hitchcock and all the masters of the past and call it Hommages", no he realized he had a one of a kind book ( coincidentally written by someone who also strived for originality and uniqueness when he wrote his novel ) and made a movie that influences Psychothrillers to this very day and probably for the next 20 years given all the originality in Hollywood.
    To me that's the spirit. Nothing else needs to apply.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @noSolaceleft , do yourself a favor and read Joseph Campbell's works-- it's the basis of storytelling and one the film industry has been using since the beginning (and human beings since the dawn of storytelling).

    As for now, you completely and absolutely miss my point. Your arrogance and lack of humility is astounding.
  • Posts: 1,162
    peter wrote: »
    @noSolaceleft , do yourself a favor and read Joseph Campbell's works-- it's the basis of storytelling and one the film industry has been using since the beginning (and human beings since the dawn of storytelling).

    As for now, you completely and absolutely miss my point. Your arrogance and lack of humility is astounding.

    Actually I don't think I need a Joseph Campbel to tell me about the written word or the development of storytelling.
    I have read large parts of the greek, roman and Germanic mythology, the works of Goethe, Schiller and Shakespeare ( not all of them if you should ask), Stefan Zweig, Karl May but also almost every major writer of crime and espionage stories. So I think I have quite a clear picture what one can expect to be produced by talented people. And if you call me arrogant just because I maintain if someone hasn't got the talent to produce at least some originality he should try to find him something else to live from, then so be it. Still this is what I expect from people I give my money to.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    bondjames wrote: »
    pachazo wrote: »
    Is anyone interested in seeing more of the Spectre members that were seated at the table during the Rome meeting? They seemed to be prominent members of the organization and yet we don't know much about them.

    Could one (or more) of them be due for a major role in Bond 25? Assuming that they weren't present at Blofeld's lair near the end of SP. Do they have unused potential or would you rather forget about them?
    I like the idea, but unfortunately none of those individuals seemed remotely interesting or memorable. The only one with a slice of charisma was Guerra, and he had his eyes gouged out and neck snapped.

    So you're not in favor of bringing him back then? Seriously though, the others didn't have much to do and hardly any time to make a fair judgement. If we are going to bring back Blofeld (which I'd rather not, but it seems very likely) then here we have a well of untapped characters to help him make his inevitable escape from prison and that were running things while he was gone etc...
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @noSolaceleft, you miss my point entirely, but that’s an impressive reading list. Well done.
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    Posts: 732
    IMHO the only way to bring back Blofeld in B25 is to keep him in the shadows and never ever again mention the foster brother stuff.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    When Jonathan Demme made The silence of the lambs he didn't sit down and said to himself "well how do I rip of Hitchcock and all the masters of the past and call it Hommages", no he realized he had a one of a kind book ( coincidentally written by someone who also strived for originality and uniqueness when he wrote his novel ) and made a movie that influences Psychothrillers to this very day and probably for the next 20 years given all the originality in Hollywood.
    To me that's the spirit. Nothing else needs to apply.
    I'm not as much of a reader as you, but I know that Silence of the Lambs was indeed a landmark film which continues to influence the genre. The same goes for the Nolan Bat films, for different reasons.

    Such is not the case with the last two Bond films, despite their outsize box office success. They do reek of homages, to other Bond films, the aforementioned Nolan entries, and to greats from the past. I thought that one was very well executed and the other, for various reasons, was not.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I absolutely agree, @bondjames , but what my well read friend fails to comprehend is that, yes, Demme, as all artists are, was inspired by other stories and films while making his landmark film.

    He fails to understand the concept that inspiration is not the same as being creatively bankrupt, nor is it creative theft.

    And I would never defend the last two Bond films as being groundbreaking, nor a landmark of any kind. One was a competent romp; the other was a good looking mess.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    When Jonathan Demme made The silence of the lambs he didn't sit down and said to himself "well how do I rip of Hitchcock and all the masters of the past and call it Hommages", no he realized he had a one of a kind book ( coincidentally written by someone who also strived for originality and uniqueness when he wrote his novel ) and made a movie that influences Psychothrillers to this very day and probably for the next 20 years given all the originality in Hollywood.
    To me that's the spirit. Nothing else needs to apply.
    I'm not as much of a reader as you, but I know that Silence of the Lambs was indeed a landmark film which continues to influence the genre. The same goes for the Nolan Bat films, for different reasons.

    Such is not the case with the last two Bond films, despite their outsize box office success. They do reek of homages, to other Bond films, the aforementioned Nolan entries, and to greats from the past. I thought that one was very well executed and the other, for various reasons, was not.

    ---
    pachazo wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    pachazo wrote: »
    Is anyone interested in seeing more of the Spectre members that were seated at the table during the Rome meeting? They seemed to be prominent members of the organization and yet we don't know much about them.

    Could one (or more) of them be due for a major role in Bond 25? Assuming that they weren't present at Blofeld's lair near the end of SP. Do they have unused potential or would you rather forget about them?
    I like the idea, but unfortunately none of those individuals seemed remotely interesting or memorable. The only one with a slice of charisma was Guerra, and he had his eyes gouged out and neck snapped.

    So you're not in favor of bringing him back then? Seriously though, the others didn't have much to do and hardly any time to make a fair judgement. If we are going to bring back Blofeld (which I'd rather not, but it seems very likely) then here we have a well of untapped characters to help him make his inevitable escape from prison and that were running things while he was gone etc...
    @pachazo, I do get where you're coming from conceptually. However, as I said, none of the characters at that SP meeting made any notable impression on me. They were as unmemorable as Gettler in CR (even though he didn't say anything). So if they were to bring one (or more) of them back some of us would notice it, but I think most of the audience probably wouldn't get the reference. I'm quite certain a lot of the general audience didn't remember White either.

    So sure, they could do it, but I'd rather if they did that they keep them as supporting characters and rather focus on another new main big bad (like Bunt?).

    ---
    @peter, I'm not as much of an avid reader as both of you are, but I'm quite certain that nearly everything that we see narratively these days in the film medium has been tried at some time in the past. So I understand where both of you are coming from. It's all a question of repackaging the elements in interesting ways that resonate. Even Nolan has cited several influences for his Bat trilogy, but he pulled it together in a unique way. Mendes on the other hand imitated (Nolan) in a more obvious way, as he did Kubrick in SP.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Of course, @bondjames , that’s the art of storytelling— how do we create something that feels familiar, but also seems wholly original (Shakespeare was able to take an ancient play in Oedipus Rex and create Hamlet; Nolan is very open about his influences and inspirations, but he’s a whiz at weaving in his themes and perspectives that give his films an abundance of originality).

  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,556
    pachazo wrote: »
    Is anyone interested in seeing more of the Spectre members that were seated at the table during the Rome meeting? They seemed to be prominent members of the organization and yet we don't know much about them.

    Could one (or more) of them be due for a major role in Bond 25? Assuming that they weren't present at Blofeld's lair near the end of SP. Do they have unused potential or would you rather forget about them?
    That's an interesting question. I read somewhere that the woman speaking was originally intended to be Irma Bunt? Perhaps this actress, or another will appear in this role soon? Also, I imagine Clem So (who is standing next to Bond on the balcony) or his brother could return in future. Perhaps both as agents of SPECTRE?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    QBranch wrote: »
    pachazo wrote: »
    Is anyone interested in seeing more of the Spectre members that were seated at the table during the Rome meeting? They seemed to be prominent members of the organization and yet we don't know much about them.

    Could one (or more) of them be due for a major role in Bond 25? Assuming that they weren't present at Blofeld's lair near the end of SP. Do they have unused potential or would you rather forget about them?
    That's an interesting question. I read somewhere that the woman speaking was originally intended to be Irma Bunt? Perhaps this actress, or another will appear in this role soon? Also, I imagine Clem So (who is standing next to Bond on the balcony) or his brother could return in future. Perhaps both as agents of SPECTRE?

    Clem So and Tom So have a third brother.
    9783462042658.jpg
  • Posts: 1,162
    peter wrote: »
    @noSolaceleft, you miss my point entirely, but that’s an impressive reading list. Well done.

    A) I don't think so
    B) thank you
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Interesting @noSolaceleft left, you absolutely remind me of my teenage son. It’s uncanny. Have a wonderful day.
  • Posts: 1,162
    peter wrote: »
    Of course, @bondjames , that’s the art of storytelling— how do we create something that feels familiar, but also seems wholly original (Shakespeare was able to take an ancient play in Oedipus Rex and create Hamlet; Nolan is very open about his influences and inspirations, but he’s a whiz at weaving in his themes and perspectives that give his films an abundance of originality).

    Without me trying to pull your leg, could you please tell me what the original things are?
    Mommy issues? Brothers fighting for affection? Bond becoming a man in the Batcave? A "serious" spy movie lacking any kind of logic? Bond behaving like a sociopath regarding the deaths of people outside the Secret Service?
    I honestly mean this. Please tell me what I'm missing!
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,556
    Clem So and Tom So have a third brother.
    Yeah, I never heard of him being a great actor. Just so-so.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @noSolaceleft : what is the question and whonare you addressing it to?
  • Posts: 1,162
    peter wrote: »
    @noSolaceleft : what is the question and whonare you addressing it to?

    The originality - where is it?
    You of course. You're the one who mentioned the weaving in ofplenty of originality.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Read the post again, @noSolaceleft. I didn’t mention Bond.

    For such a well read young man, comprehension’s not your strong suit?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    peter wrote: »
    Read the post again, @noSolaceleft. I didn’t mention Bond.

    For such a well read young man, comprehension’s not your strong suit?
    You both are actually more in agreement than you think. Neither of you are defending SF or SP as overly original concepts. I think we all agree there was a lot of overt & obvious homaging in both.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    That’s what I was telling @noSolaceleft — actually READ and COMPREHEND what I was saying BEFORE asking me to explain myself.

    I know I’m in agreement (in parts) to what my well-read friend was saying; boggles my mind how clueless he is being on what I had said.
  • Posts: 1,162
    peter wrote: »
    Read the post again, @noSolaceleft. I didn’t mention Bond.

    For such a well read young man, comprehension’s not your strong suit?

    Sorry, I got that wrong. Actually I have only seen two of his movies outside the bond franchise.
    Road to perdition managers to be dreary and boring even with the most creepy of killers and Paul " the man himself " Newman starring in his last large role and the strong parts of American Beauty rely solely on the script so I really fail to be impressed with his works.
  • Posts: 1,162
    peter wrote: »
    Interesting @noSolaceleft left, you absolutely remind me of my teenage son.

    Obviously he's coming after his mother. You must be very proud of him.
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