Die Another Day vs Spectre.

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  • Posts: 4,044
    Walecs wrote: »
    IMO both movies drag. Whenever I watch 'em I stop caring about both as they reach the climax on the Antonov and in London.

    The Antonov finale has great music and I especially love Graves' demise (Time to face gravity!) but to be honest I'd be happier had the movie climax taken place at the Ice Palace and had it been shorter.

    I'm afraid there's nothing salvageable about SPECTRE's London chase. The music is just a rehash of The Moors, Blofeld's photo tunnel makes no sense. Though I love Blofeld's line "Look around you, James. This is what's left of your world. Everything you stood for, everything you believed in, a ruin."

    Overall SPECTRE is the one I enjoy the most, but there are many things I'd change about both anyway.

    It's quite funny that they both make the same mistake of moving away from a perfectly good location for a finale to a much weaker one. I don't think it helps Spectre that everything is so dark, everyone is wearing black. Whereas the crater was a quite interesting looking design.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    DAD is loud and chaotic for me, with little pauses and moments to breathe.

    SP is much more my thing, with many of its scenes taking place in remote, somewhat desolate areas, with an atmospheric score full of underrated, charming moments and with characters who prefer an introverted lifestyle to socially overstuffed events. I can see why the film is perceived as cold and even dull. Objectively speaking, I won't even disagree. But I myself am always touched by the film. It's still my second favourite Craig Bond film, second only to CR.
  • PTS: SP
    Title Track: SP
    Title Credits: dont' care
    Main Villain: SP
    Main Bond Girl: SP
    Henchman: SP hands down
    Overall Plot: SP
    Dialogue: SP
    Score: SP
    Settings: SP
    Action: SP, just compare the 2 car chases
    Humor: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    Suspense: SP
    Minor Characters: SP hands down
    Glamour: SP
    BOND PERFORMANCE: SP

    SP 17
    Don't care 1
    DAD 0
  • Posts: 19,339
    @JohnBarryFan are you saying the SP car chase is better than the DAD chase on the ice ?
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,588
    If I had to choose one to take on a desert island, id choose SP. However, its a very bipolar film for me as my like and dislike changes with every viewing. The first 2/3 of DAD is enjoyable for me. Right up until the ice Palace is melted. Both films in my opinion could have been better with some better writing and final third acts. DAD should have never had the plane finale, yet had it set on the Korean Airbase as early ideas were presented. SP should have kept the whole thing in the lair in Morocco ala DN. Instead of the boring lair room with all of the screens, a meal and interrogation would have been better, then possibly the torture and escape. Rescue Madeline etc.

    Both films have greatness in them, but Tamahori was never right and ruined alot of areas with his changes and Mendes shot his load with SF and never should have come back.
  • Posts: 250
    DAD's first act is salvageable and then it becomes progressively more brutal from the introduction of The Clash onwards, until we reach the embarrassing nadir of Emperor Robocop Maggie Smith Jr doing his thing.

    SP is anaemic and also a chore and long and makes basic errors, but like QoS its thematic ideas sustain a heartbeat of interest that can string you along. It is also a largely professional presentation that isn't quite an embarrassment to be in the same room as. I can't say that for DAD.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,588
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I have a blast with the bulk of DAD. When it falls, it falls hard, but in that first hour and 15 minutes, aside from Jinx and Madonna and some cringeworthy dialogue, it is an exciting Bond film.

    As do I. The first hour plus is some of the best in the Brosnan era. 16 years later, im still wrapping my head around how and why it had to go so sci-fi bonkers in the second half. The 14 year old me at the time couldn't get enough of it back in 2002
  • edited February 2019 Posts: 678
    Both are not very good and not very fun to watch.

    The real controversial opinion is that I'd rather watch OP than either of them.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,588
    I never believed in the good and bad when it comes to Bond. I don't flat out hate any of them like most. They're either favorites or least favorites but I'd take all 24 of them over any other movie any time
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,030
    At the risk of repeating myself from several other threads, my principal problem with DAD is that after an overall promising first half (roughly), it lets you down so completely with its utterly idiotic plot, it ridiculous CGI nonsense scenes, and even more its imbecilic dialogue that due to utter disappointment, I fail to see any saving grace in the entire movie. Initially I was delighted that it seemed to be at least better than the convoluted mess that was TWiNE, but unfortunately I had to learn otherwise halfway through the film. It turned out even worse.

    In comparison, I hate the foster-brother back story of SP and basically the destruction of the Blofeld character and SPECTRE organisation as a nemesis for decades to come. But other than that, I like the overall mood and feeling of SP far more than the puerile attempt at humour that marked the Brosnan films, especially the last two. Brosnan was best when he made no jokes, because the type of stuff that Rog could pull off came out flat and merely cringe-inducing with Broz. Granted he also had worse material than Rog as well.

    Apart from the Bloberhauser issue, SP disappointed me mainly in one regard: It wasn't nearly as good as its predecessor, which I still consider the best (which to me equals most enjoyable) Bond film since FRWL. My only four "9/10" Bond films are FRWL, GF, CR and SF. And overall Craig's films revitalised my love for Bond movies which had severely suffered during the second half of the Brosnan "era". I'm fine with Craig as Bond and his overall record, though it took a bit of a dive in the last installment.
  • I never believed in the good and bad when it comes to Bond. I don't flat out hate any of them like most. They're either favorites or least favorites but I'd take all 24 of them over any other movie any time

    I share this opinion in bold! I don't hate any Bond film and definitely do not think any are outright terrible. Some I like to re-watch more than others.

    I can watch Spectre pre-titles again and again, the best part of the film.
    DAD is great fun...up until ICE PALACE. Then it's very OTT. But really, not much different than Moonraker or YOLT in terms of realistic 3rd acts :)
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    At the risk of repeating myself from several other threads, my principal problem with DAD is that after an overall promising first half (roughly), it lets you down so completely with its utterly idiotic plot, it ridiculous CGI nonsense scenes, and even more its imbecilic dialogue that due to utter disappointment, I fail to see any saving grace in the entire movie. Initially I was delighted that it seemed to be at least better than the convoluted mess that was TWiNE, but unfortunately I had to learn otherwise halfway through the film. It turned out even worse.

    In comparison, I hate the foster-brother back story of SP and basically the destruction of the Blofeld character and SPECTRE organisation as a nemesis for decades to come. But other than that, I like the overall mood and feeling of SP far more than the puerile attempt at humour that marked the Brosnan films, especially the last two. Brosnan was best when he made no jokes, because the type of stuff that Rog could pull off came out flat and merely cringe-inducing with Broz. Granted he also had worse material than Rog as well.

    Apart from the Bloberhauser issue, SP disappointed me mainly in one regard: It wasn't nearly as good as its predecessor, which I still consider the best (which to me equals most enjoyable) Bond film since FRWL. My only four "9/10" Bond films are FRWL, GF, CR and SF. And overall Craig's films revitalised my love for Bond movies which had severely suffered during the second half of the Brosnan "era". I'm fine with Craig as Bond and his overall record, though it took a bit of a dive in the last installment.

    Great post. Although, I believe SF to be brilliant yet overrated. I am surprised OHMSS and TB aren't topping your list too.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,030
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Great post. Although, I believe SF to be brilliant yet overrated. I am surprised OHMSS and TB aren't topping your list too.

    Thanks for the applause. However, to reply to your final remark: OHMSS would be up there if they hadn't had Lazenby as the main character. I think he couldn't really act his way out of a restroom stall and is easily the worst thing about that movie. TB is brilliant in many ways but the only classic Bond film I consider borderline boring...and even NSNA more entertaining, if that's an indication.

  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Great post. Although, I believe SF to be brilliant yet overrated. I am surprised OHMSS and TB aren't topping your list too.

    Thanks for the applause. However, to reply to your final remark: OHMSS would be up there if they hadn't had Lazenby as the main character. I think he couldn't really act his way out of a restroom stall and is easily the worst thing about that movie. TB is brilliant in many ways but the only classic Bond film I consider borderline boring...and even NSNA more entertaining, if that's an indication.

    How about Dr No???
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,030
    suavejmf wrote: »
    How about Dr No???
    Nice first try, though not as iconic as the later Connery films, with an inferior score (ok, in comparison to Barry you may say that also about CR and SF), a definitely cheap "B-movie" feeling, a few things that might appear questionable today (in terms of "racism", including the "yellow-facing" of Dr. No and Miss Taro), unnecessary goofs (the hearse changing from one car to another when going down the cliff)...and that kind of minor stuff, which makes me "only" give it an 8/10. Which is twice as much as DAD, just to get back on the thread subject.
  • DrClatterhandDrClatterhand United Kingdom
    Posts: 349
    Can't believe this is even a thread. Die Another Day was Bond's cinematic nadir. It's an astoundingly awful film with absolutely no redeeming features. It's a Bond film for 5 year old boys with ADHD. The CGI was unbelievably terrible and a travesty it got okayed by the producers. The song is also the worst in the series.

    SPECTRE is a half-baked film with some quite passable Bondian moments. Mendes had basically used all his creative juices on Skyfall.

    So, to end, I think Die Another Day is far worse than SPECTRE

  • Posts: 7,653
    Can't believe this is even a thread. Die Another Day was Bond's cinematic nadir. It's an astoundingly awful film with absolutely no redeeming features. It's a Bond film for 5 year old boys with ADHD. The CGI was unbelievably terrible and a travesty it got okayed by the producers. The song is also the worst in the series.

    SPECTRE is a half-baked film with some quite passable Bondian moments. Mendes had basically used all his creative juices on Skyfall.

    So, to end, I think Die Another Day is far worse than SPECTRE

    Everybody is entitled to his/her opinion, but I think that QoS has truly the worst titlesong of them all. Not sure who greenlit that piece of cr&p
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,030
    @SaintMark

    I fully agree with your general principle and have no particular love for Another Way To Die. Still I think that it works quite nicely in context, and one might wish to say that about Madonna's theme too because it accompanies the torture imagery quite appropriately and also seems to warn the audience about what they may have to endure for the rest of the movie (SCNR).
  • edited February 2019 Posts: 7,653
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    @SaintMark

    I fully agree with your general principle and have no particular love for Another Way To Die. Still I think that it works quite nicely in context, and one might wish to say that about Madonna's theme too because it accompanies the torture imagery quite appropriately and also seems to warn the audience about what they may have to endure for the rest of the movie (SCNR).

    Well I feel that with SF & SP after the title-song the best of the movies have been shown. With QoS I find the editing of the movie terrible but I always wondered with the title-song if they edited that too as it is totally mod edit.

    The difference with DAD I find it a stupid movie after the race with the Aston Martin & Jaguar on the ice, then the movie gradually buckles on its own weight. They could have done a lot more with the patricide bit which I found more original than anything in SP.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Can't believe this is even a thread. Die Another Day was Bond's cinematic nadir. It's an astoundingly awful film with absolutely no redeeming features. It's a Bond film for 5 year old boys with ADHD. The CGI was unbelievably terrible and a travesty it got okayed by the producers. The song is also the worst in the series.

    SPECTRE is a half-baked film with some quite passable Bondian moments. Mendes had basically used all his creative juices on Skyfall.

    So, to end, I think Die Another Day is far worse than SPECTRE

    u speak my thoughts (& i luv u 4 it)

    xxx
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Well, here’s my take on this. Mendes screwed Craig’s era and the depiction of the Bond franchise.

    If I were to compare which one did worse, DAD or the Mendes twosome, the latter wins the prize with ease.
  • Well, here’s my take on this. Mendes screwed Craig’s era and the depiction of the Bond franchise.

    If I were to compare which one did worse, DAD or the Mendes twosome, the latter wins the prize with ease.

    I second that....Mendes did his damage but at least SP had redeeming qualities to allow the franchise to continue, unlike DAD which was the culmination of destructive elements that have plagued the franchise by being probably the worst film.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    Well, here’s my take on this. Mendes screwed Craig’s era and the depiction of the Bond franchise.

    If I were to compare which one did worse, DAD or the Mendes twosome, the latter wins the prize with ease.

    I wouldn't go that far, but if I saw Skyfall as an impressionable 5 year old in 2012, it would not have resonated with me like Goldeneye had in the mid 1990's (I forget when I saw it but it was on TV)
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    SP is a flawed film while SF on a whole isn’t. But, both are instrumental in what the newcomers of today in the Bond franchise think that the melodramatic soap operatic moments in it are novel and of high quality. I don’t hate SP as much as others do here, but I do apply that feeling towards SF. Now, Bond is all about symbolism and sacrifices where nothing is pure. Someone has been watching too much Christopher Nolan and reading the works of George R.R. Martin.

    DAD, on the other hand, may have went overboard with the sci-fi, ridiculous CGI and the cheesy dialogues, but it was a damn great fun romper that still knew it was selling a James Bond film. The kind of James Bond film that you’ve been loving since GF. DAD did Bond damage as much as MR did back in the day. Look at FYEO if you’re wondering how easily it could’ve fixed it without making radical changes.
  • Posts: 7,418
    Can't believe this is even a thread. Die Another Day was Bond's cinematic nadir. It's an astoundingly awful film with absolutely no redeeming features. It's a Bond film for 5 year old boys with ADHD. The CGI was unbelievably terrible and a travesty it got okayed by the producers. The song is also the worst in the series.

    SPECTRE is a half-baked film with some quite passable Bondian moments. Mendes had basically used all his creative juices on Skyfall.

    So, to end, I think Die Another Day is far worse than SPECTRE

    "Ipso fatso!" As Bart Simpson would say!
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    edited February 2019 Posts: 4,483
    I'm surprised that SP is so much disliked here and that DAD is preferred. The obvious reason that some of you mentioned is the fact that DAD is “easier“ to watch, more entertaining in a way. BUT alone the catastrophic CGI and the invisible car do hurt my eyes and my brain so much that DAD is definitely weaker for me. (It's my second least favourite bond film after MR, mainly because I can't watch space action...piuu...piuu...god I hate laser guns ).

    Interestingly, I think that SP is much more critisized by fans than by “normal“ movie consumers, because they dont care about the brothergate stuff, they don't realise that Blofeld is treated complitely wrong in SP. It was much harder for me to defense my love for Bond in 2002 than 2015. My mates laughed at me back then...
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    I'm surprised that SP is so much disliked here and that DAD is preferred. The obvious reason that some of you mentioned is the fact that DAD is “easier“ to watch, more entertaining in a way. BUT alone the catastrophic CGI and the invisible car do hurt my eyes and my brain so much that DAD is definitely weaker for me. (It's my second least favourite bond film after MR, mainly because I can't watch space action...piuu...piuu...god I hate laser guns ).

    Interestingly, I think that SP is much more critisized by fans than by “normal“ movie consumers, because they dont care about the brothergate stuff, they don't realise that Blofeld is treated complitely wrong in SP. It was much harder for me to defense my love for Bond in 2002 than 2015. My mates laughed at me back then...

    Yes, this.

    I have said it many times that it's only Bond fans who react in any way to the foster brother angle. I asked my brother in law what he thought of the foster brother story and he looked bemused that I even asked the question.

    When DAD was on TV a while back my son kept looking across at me with a half smile of disbelief on his face.
  • DrClatterhandDrClatterhand United Kingdom
    Posts: 349
    I don't understand how any adult could like Die Another Day. I genuinely don't. It's mouth-breather fodder. It's like xXx, but worse.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I’d like to just drop it, but I guess I can’t. SP is boring as Hell no matter how it’s spun or analyzed. Discecting it (for me, at least) is academic and pretty much meaningless; if it can’t grab me, impress me or stimulate me on any level, why should I bother? And my cinema viewing is diverse (as those who know me are aware of).

    Repeat viewings do not do it justice, because it's too long and doesn't really deserve the 2.5 hour length. CR was a monumental moment, a telling of Fleming's first story, a new actor. SF was the anniversary Bond, another big moment in Bond history.
    SP had no reason to be so long. 20 minutes should've been shaved off. As such it does come across as boring.
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 4,483
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I’d like to just drop it, but I guess I can’t. SP is boring as Hell no matter how it’s spun or analyzed. Discecting it (for me, at least) is academic and pretty much meaningless; if it can’t grab me, impress me or stimulate me on any level, why should I bother? And my cinema viewing is diverse (as those who know me are aware of).

    It is too long and at the SPECTRE meeting in Rome I had the first uncomfortable feeling at the first viewing in cinema...when Blofeld arrives and noone talks and then a guy has to move his microphone...I wanted to shout: Talk, com'on, talk! It is really the first bond movie wheremovie I can understand when people say it is a bit boring. I hope this never happens again in future.

    But anyway, this scene is a bad example of SP, but we can at least enjoy the scenery with its light and shadow. There is nothing to like in the CGI scenes of DAD
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