Controversial opinions about other movies

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  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,634
    cooperman2 wrote: »
    Controversial opinion maybe but I think Red Dragon is a better version of Harris's novel than Manhunter. Mann's film is very much a film of the 80's and now looks quite dated I think

    I agree. Every actor makes it better as well.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,007
    cooperman2 wrote: »
    Controversial opinion maybe but I think Red Dragon is a better version of Harris's novel than Manhunter. Mann's film is very much a film of the 80's and now looks quite dated I think

    Brett Ratner's uninspired version pales by comparison. Compare the 'Tiger' scenes and and there's just no contest.

    Plus Will Petersen nails the Graham part. Ed Norton not so much...
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited October 2022 Posts: 24,183
    cooperman2 wrote: »
    Controversial opinion maybe but I think Red Dragon is a better version of Harris's novel than Manhunter. Mann's film is very much a film of the 80's and now looks quite dated I think

    Brett Ratner's uninspired version pales by comparison. Compare the 'Tiger' scenes and and there's just no contest.

    Plus Will Petersen nails the Graham part. Ed Norton not so much...

    Agreed 100%. Even the '80s score in Mann's film manages to set a strong mood that Elfman failed to create. I've seen Manhunter a good dozen times and Red Dragon only twice. The latter just doesn't motivate me to more viewings.
  • Posts: 380
    Never was a fan of electronic scores in the 80s, always preferred classical Hollywood scoring of Williams, Goldsmith, Horner etc. Yes William Petersen is great but Red Dragon has some fine performance's too, particularly Emily Watson and Ralph Fiennes
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited October 2022 Posts: 4,007
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    cooperman2 wrote: »
    Controversial opinion maybe but I think Red Dragon is a better version of Harris's novel than Manhunter. Mann's film is very much a film of the 80's and now looks quite dated I think

    Brett Ratner's uninspired version pales by comparison. Compare the 'Tiger' scenes and and there's just no contest.

    Plus Will Petersen nails the Graham part. Ed Norton not so much...

    Agreed 100%. Even the '80s score in Mann's film manages to set a strong mood that Elfman failed to create. I've seen Manhunter a good dozen times and Red Dragon only twice. The latter just doesn't motivate me to more viewings.
    Exactly.

    I watch Manhunter at least once a year. I have no interest in watching Red Dragon ever again.

    But then that's the difference in talent between Michael Mann and Brett Ratner...
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    Haven't watched TL for at least 12 years or so, but remember liking it overall. One of very few James Cameron movies to which this applies.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2022 Posts: 3,152
    Yeah, I prefer Manhunter too. Brian Cox made a great Lecter.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    cooperman2 wrote: »
    Controversial opinion maybe but I think Red Dragon is a better version of Harris's novel than Manhunter. Mann's film is very much a film of the 80's and now looks quite dated I think

    Brett Ratner's uninspired version pales by comparison. Compare the 'Tiger' scenes and and there's just no contest.

    Plus Will Petersen nails the Graham part. Ed Norton not so much...

    Agreed 100%. Even the '80s score in Mann's film manages to set a strong mood that Elfman failed to create. I've seen Manhunter a good dozen times and Red Dragon only twice. The latter just doesn't motivate me to more viewings.
    Exactly.

    I watch Manhunter at least once a year. I have no interest in watching Red Dragon ever again.

    But then that's the difference in talent between Michael Mann and Brett Ratner...

    Ratner is the kind of guy who can competently deliver middle-of-the-week entertainment that follows rote formula. Mann sets unique moods, works with beautiful visuals, and shapes interesting characters.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,134
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    cooperman2 wrote: »
    Controversial opinion maybe but I think Red Dragon is a better version of Harris's novel than Manhunter. Mann's film is very much a film of the 80's and now looks quite dated I think

    Brett Ratner's uninspired version pales by comparison. Compare the 'Tiger' scenes and and there's just no contest.

    Plus Will Petersen nails the Graham part. Ed Norton not so much...

    Agreed 100%. Even the '80s score in Mann's film manages to set a strong mood that Elfman failed to create. I've seen Manhunter a good dozen times and Red Dragon only twice. The latter just doesn't motivate me to more viewings.
    Exactly.

    I watch Manhunter at least once a year. I have no interest in watching Red Dragon ever again.

    But then that's the difference in talent between Michael Mann and Brett Ratner...

    Ratner is the kind of guy who can competently deliver middle-of-the-week entertainment that follows rote formula. Mann sets unique moods, works with beautiful visuals, and shapes interesting characters.

    I agree.
    cooperman2 wrote: »
    Controversial opinion maybe but I think Red Dragon is a better version of Harris's novel than Manhunter. Mann's film is very much a film of the 80's and now looks quite dated I think

    I never quite understood the term ‘dated’ either. It’s logical that films are children of the time in which they were created. I wonder why one would consider that a bad thing. I’d even say it’s a positive thing that there are these time capsules that are typical of their era, that manage to capture an atmosphere impossible to imitate today. For me ‘dated’ is a non-argument. No offense to you of course, just the way I feel about it.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,007
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    cooperman2 wrote: »
    Controversial opinion maybe but I think Red Dragon is a better version of Harris's novel than Manhunter. Mann's film is very much a film of the 80's and now looks quite dated I think

    Brett Ratner's uninspired version pales by comparison. Compare the 'Tiger' scenes and and there's just no contest.

    Plus Will Petersen nails the Graham part. Ed Norton not so much...

    Agreed 100%. Even the '80s score in Mann's film manages to set a strong mood that Elfman failed to create. I've seen Manhunter a good dozen times and Red Dragon only twice. The latter just doesn't motivate me to more viewings.
    Exactly.

    I watch Manhunter at least once a year. I have no interest in watching Red Dragon ever again.

    But then that's the difference in talent between Michael Mann and Brett Ratner...

    Ratner is the kind of guy who can competently deliver middle-of-the-week entertainment that follows rote formula. Mann sets unique moods, works with beautiful visuals, and shapes interesting characters.

    I agree.
    cooperman2 wrote: »
    Controversial opinion maybe but I think Red Dragon is a better version of Harris's novel than Manhunter. Mann's film is very much a film of the 80's and now looks quite dated I think

    I never quite understood the term ‘dated’ either. It’s logical that films are children of the time in which they were created. I wonder why one would consider that a bad thing. I’d even say it’s a positive thing that there are these time capsules that are typical of their era, that manage to capture an atmosphere impossible to imitate today. For me ‘dated’ is a non-argument. No offense to you of course, just the way I feel about it.

    Agreed.

    Dr No is also 'dated' and it's a wonderful time capsule of that time.

    A criticism that holds no water.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    cooperman2 wrote: »
    Controversial opinion maybe but I think Red Dragon is a better version of Harris's novel than Manhunter. Mann's film is very much a film of the 80's and now looks quite dated I think

    Brett Ratner's uninspired version pales by comparison. Compare the 'Tiger' scenes and and there's just no contest.

    Plus Will Petersen nails the Graham part. Ed Norton not so much...

    Agreed 100%. Even the '80s score in Mann's film manages to set a strong mood that Elfman failed to create. I've seen Manhunter a good dozen times and Red Dragon only twice. The latter just doesn't motivate me to more viewings.
    Exactly.

    I watch Manhunter at least once a year. I have no interest in watching Red Dragon ever again.

    But then that's the difference in talent between Michael Mann and Brett Ratner...

    Ratner is the kind of guy who can competently deliver middle-of-the-week entertainment that follows rote formula. Mann sets unique moods, works with beautiful visuals, and shapes interesting characters.

    I agree.
    cooperman2 wrote: »
    Controversial opinion maybe but I think Red Dragon is a better version of Harris's novel than Manhunter. Mann's film is very much a film of the 80's and now looks quite dated I think

    I never quite understood the term ‘dated’ either. It’s logical that films are children of the time in which they were created. I wonder why one would consider that a bad thing. I’d even say it’s a positive thing that there are these time capsules that are typical of their era, that manage to capture an atmosphere impossible to imitate today. For me ‘dated’ is a non-argument. No offense to you of course, just the way I feel about it.

    'Dated' is a term I'd use when a modern film resorts to story-telling devices, ideas or filmmaking techniques that were abandoned years ago. But an ageing film can hardly be accused of being "dated"; it's just a film that was made "back then" and that was modern "back then". Such a film is never dated, just an "old" film now.
  • Posts: 16,167
    I tend to think of the term "dated" as meaning the film just doesn't hold up to the test of time. It's lost it's value in the ensuing years, while other films from the same period may stand the test of time and remain fresh for decades.

  • DrunkIrishPoetDrunkIrishPoet The Amber Coast
    Posts: 156
    I recently watched most of “Airport” (1970) and I was aghast how “dated” it was: the obviousness of the dialogue, the cartoonish acting, the classic invisible filmmaking style— everything was so incredibly old-fashioned. (I say nothing of the difference in air travel between then and now.)

    I mentioned my thoughts aloud to my wife and she was like, “well it’s 1970 what do you expect? that’s the way things were back then.”

    And I’m like, “No, by 1970 we’ve already seen The Wild Bunch, Bonnie and Clyde, and The Graduate. All much more modern than this Airport turkey, which looks more like a Doris Day/Rock Hudson flick from 1959 or 1961. The Towering Inferno and The Poseidon Adventure are much better crafted.”

    So that’s my example of being “dated” in a bad way.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    I recently watched most of “Airport” (1970) and I was aghast how “dated” it was: the obviousness of the dialogue, the cartoonish acting, the classic invisible filmmaking style— everything was so incredibly old-fashioned. (I say nothing of the difference in air travel between then and now.)

    I mentioned my thoughts aloud to my wife and she was like, “well it’s 1970 what do you expect? that’s the way things were back then.”

    And I’m like, “No, by 1970 we’ve already seen The Wild Bunch, Bonnie and Clyde, and The Graduate. All much more modern than this Airport turkey, which looks more like a Doris Day/Rock Hudson flick from 1959 or 1961. The Towering Inferno and The Poseidon Adventure are much better crafted.”

    So that’s my example of being “dated” in a bad way.

    I misread your post at first and thought you were talking about Airplane, a "comedy" I can barely sit through. That's the kind of comedy (Police Academy, Hot Shots, pretty much every comedy with Leslie Nielsen) that I hate from the bottom of my heart.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited October 2022 Posts: 7,134
    I have to confess I’ve never seen a Leslie Nielsen comedy, seems like I’m not missing much though… or am I?
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited October 2022 Posts: 4,007
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I have to confess I’ve never seen a Leslie Nielsen comedy, seems like I’m not missing much though… or am I?

    "Surely you can't be serious...?"

    "I am serious, and don't call me Shirley..!" 😄

    I think they're hilarious..
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    The Naked Gun is great, and Leslie is generally pretty brilliant. His Star-Spangled Banner is hilarious.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    I have never seen a Leslie Nielsen comedy that didn't make me want to rant all day long about how "stoooopid" it was. Naked Gun? Spy Hard? Ugh!
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,634
    Going back to the Hannibal Lecter conversation, I have an opinion about that. My family and I watched Hannibal Rising (2007) last week. Despite the bad reviews, we enjoyed it. It’s a shame that Thomas Harris was guilt tripped into writing it.

    From Wikipedia: The February 22, 2007 issue of Entertainment Weekly features a quote that suggests that the only reason Thomas Harris wrote the story was out of the fear that a Lecter prequel/origin story would inevitably be written without his involvement. Hannibal Rising film producer Dino De Laurentiis said "I say to Thomas, 'If you don't do [the prequel], I will do it with someone else... I don't want to lose this franchise. And the audience wants it...' He said, 'No. I'm sorry.' And I said, 'I will do it with somebody else.' And then he said, 'Let me think about it. I will come up with an idea.'"

    It wouldn’t surprise me if they continued Hannibal Lecter as a book series after Thomas Harris dies. They shouldn’t.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I have never seen a Leslie Nielsen comedy that didn't make me want to rant all day long about how "stoooopid" it was. Naked Gun? Spy Hard? Ugh!

    You'd might as well rant about them being in color!
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,803
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I have to confess I’ve never seen a Leslie Nielsen comedy, seems like I’m not missing much though… or am I?
    disperse-lesley-nielsen.gif

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I have never seen a Leslie Nielsen comedy that didn't make me want to rant all day long about how "stoooopid" it was. Naked Gun? Spy Hard? Ugh!

    You'd might as well rant about them being in color!

    I will. 😉
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    Posts: 554
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Going back to the Hannibal Lecter conversation, I have an opinion about that. My family and I watched Hannibal Rising (2007) last week. Despite the bad reviews, we enjoyed it. It’s a shame that Thomas Harris was guilt tripped into writing it.

    From Wikipedia: The February 22, 2007 issue of Entertainment Weekly features a quote that suggests that the only reason Thomas Harris wrote the story was out of the fear that a Lecter prequel/origin story would inevitably be written without his involvement. Hannibal Rising film producer Dino De Laurentiis said "I say to Thomas, 'If you don't do [the prequel], I will do it with someone else... I don't want to lose this franchise. And the audience wants it...' He said, 'No. I'm sorry.' And I said, 'I will do it with somebody else.' And then he said, 'Let me think about it. I will come up with an idea.'"

    It wouldn’t surprise me if they continued Hannibal Lecter as a book series after Thomas Harris dies. They shouldn’t.
    As far as I'm concerned, that film doesn't exist. Hanninal and Red Dragon are nowhere near as good as Silence of the Lambs, but at least they have Hopkins and make a nice trilogy.
  • Posts: 15,123
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I recently watched most of “Airport” (1970) and I was aghast how “dated” it was: the obviousness of the dialogue, the cartoonish acting, the classic invisible filmmaking style— everything was so incredibly old-fashioned. (I say nothing of the difference in air travel between then and now.)

    I mentioned my thoughts aloud to my wife and she was like, “well it’s 1970 what do you expect? that’s the way things were back then.”

    And I’m like, “No, by 1970 we’ve already seen The Wild Bunch, Bonnie and Clyde, and The Graduate. All much more modern than this Airport turkey, which looks more like a Doris Day/Rock Hudson flick from 1959 or 1961. The Towering Inferno and The Poseidon Adventure are much better crafted.”

    So that’s my example of being “dated” in a bad way.

    I misread your post at first and thought you were talking about Airplane, a "comedy" I can barely sit through. That's the kind of comedy (Police Academy, Hot Shots, pretty much every comedy with Leslie Nielsen) that I hate from the bottom of my heart.
    I don't know what's wrong with them but yes, there's definitely something wrong with them. They used to thrive in the 80s-90s. Don't know why.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Ludovico wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I recently watched most of “Airport” (1970) and I was aghast how “dated” it was: the obviousness of the dialogue, the cartoonish acting, the classic invisible filmmaking style— everything was so incredibly old-fashioned. (I say nothing of the difference in air travel between then and now.)

    I mentioned my thoughts aloud to my wife and she was like, “well it’s 1970 what do you expect? that’s the way things were back then.”

    And I’m like, “No, by 1970 we’ve already seen The Wild Bunch, Bonnie and Clyde, and The Graduate. All much more modern than this Airport turkey, which looks more like a Doris Day/Rock Hudson flick from 1959 or 1961. The Towering Inferno and The Poseidon Adventure are much better crafted.”

    So that’s my example of being “dated” in a bad way.

    I misread your post at first and thought you were talking about Airplane, a "comedy" I can barely sit through. That's the kind of comedy (Police Academy, Hot Shots, pretty much every comedy with Leslie Nielsen) that I hate from the bottom of my heart.
    I don't know what's wrong with them but yes, there's definitely something wrong with them. They used to thrive in the 80s-90s. Don't know why.

    They are not my kind of comedy. It feels like these films are meant to cater to the wee ones.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I love those kind of films when they’re done right, such as Naked Gun, Airplane, etc. A big part of it is that they brought in dramatic actors to come in and play their roles completely straight, without any winking/nudging or playing up the comedy. Such as in this scene.



    The kind of spoofs I hate are those like Scary Movie and Epic Movie, because they’re not only trying to play up the comedy in a way that’s unfunny and grating, but they’re also super reliant on pop culture references with no real punchline to them. It’s like, “oh here’s Borat suddenly appearing in our movie, isn’t that funny?!”
  • Posts: 15,123
    I love those kind of films when they’re done right, such as Naked Gun, Airplane, etc. A big part of it is that they brought in dramatic actors to come in and play their roles completely straight, without any winking/nudging or playing up the comedy. Such as in this scene.



    The kind of spoofs I hate are those like Scary Movie and Epic Movie, because they’re not only trying to play up the comedy in a way that’s unfunny and grating, but they’re also super reliant on pop culture references with no real punchline to them. It’s like, “oh here’s Borat suddenly appearing in our movie, isn’t that funny?!”

    There's at least some of The Naked Gun I like, mostly because of Leslie Nielsen's ever dignified attitude, even when his character was being utterly ridiculous. But as the 90s went on, they just went for cheap laugh.
  • DrunkIrishPoetDrunkIrishPoet The Amber Coast
    Posts: 156
    “Airplane!” is hilarious; better than your average Mel Brooks movie in my opinion. But in his pre-Airplane career, Leslie Nielsen was the captain of the Poseidon! Watching Poseidon Adventure now, I’m like, well no wonder that ship flipped upside down!! Look who was driving!!!
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Yeah, he was a leading man back in the day. And if you've seen Creepshow, he's probably the best thing in it--absolutely sinister.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Yeah, he was a leading man back in the day. And if you've seen Creepshow, he's probably the best thing in it--absolutely sinister.

    I like him in Forbidden Planet, Creepshow, and even Prom Night. He was a very good actor. But his comedy wasn't my thing.
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