It's Grεεκ To Me

1568101118

Comments

  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    As a bit of a digression, if you allow, and getting back to the delta wings etc., I just dug up something from my personal history close to fifty years ago which may explain why I even know the difference between, say, a B-58 and a B-52 (or whatever):

    In a drawer, I found my old Autoquartett (Car Quartet) as well as Schiffsquartett (Ships Q.) and, you guessed it, Flugzeugquartett (Aircraft Q.) card sets, and others, from about 1970 (plus/minus two years, maybe).

    Now the "Quartett" game in German seems to be the equivalent of what in English is called "Happy Families" (not that I ever knew that until now). You have to collect as many groups of four cards as possible to win.

    However, it was the rage over here in those days (especially in the fifteen-minute breaks between classes at school) to play it like what I also never knew until now as "Top Trumps" [shudder, regarding the latter word]. Your card was about a certain item (car, ship, aircraft) where the technical features were listed, and you won if you collected all of them by comparing your card to the others and winning in a category that was picked by the one whose turn it was. In 90 per cent of the cases it was cars that were the subject, but sometimes we also extended that to ships and planes.

    The following is the card for the B-58, followed by the B-52. So my knowledge of these types is really deep-rooted...or at least about 50 years old.
    convairb589ms69.jpg
    boeingb52p5s6m.jpg

    On the B-58 card, I even added the service ceiling (Dienstgipfelhöhe = Dgh.) of 18,700 meters (~61,000 ft), and with the B-52 I seem to have underlined the unbeatable number of engines (8).

    Ah, childhood memories...
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,803
    Cool stuff, @j_w_pepper. I do enjoy those Q planes.

    I also like the Sigma association, plus have a plan to approach the Mercury, Ulysses, and other than Greek items/crossovers.

    Q-Planes-poster-1.jpg
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,264
    Fascinating! Do you still have the card of the M-103? My knowledge, albeit a bit rusty, should be fare more extensive but I've never heard of an M-103. The Mirage I know (another nuclear capable aircraft), M-103 illudes me.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    @CommanderRoss, I do have my complete "Quartett" games (the ones that I have) complete, so here is the "M-103" for you. It is apparently the "M 103" version of the M-4 "Bison" (NATO code) Soviet bomber. Not that I'm saying those card games were necessarily correct...but at least the German Wikipedia mentions that "M-103".
    myasischewm103vcs85.jpg
    And then of course, if someone desires somewhat Bond-related car quartet cards, here are a few:
    bondautosm2skt.jpg:
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,803
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    It may be a certain leap...but DR: NO, of course is about the toppling of American rockets as a compensation for "Look, Ma, no hands." DR.NO premiered in the UK on October 5, 1962.

    Only two days before, the fifth mission of the Mercury (alas, not Hermes) program was launched at Cape Canaveral, with the Atlas(!) rocket sending Walter Schirra on a nine-hour flight. The call sign of that mission was Sigma 7.

    'Sigma 7' at 50: Retro Space Images Recall 5th US Spaceflight
    https://www.space.com/17873-schirra-sigma-7-50th-anniversary.html
    By Robert Z. Pearlman, collectSPACE.com Editor | October 3, 2012 09:32am ET

    50 years ago, Wally Schirra became the fifth American in space, making the third orbital flight of the Mercury program. Schirra piloted his Sigma 7 capsule on a six-orbit mission that lasted more than nine hours on Oct. 3, 1962.
    aHR0cDovL3d3dy5zcGFjZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzAyMi8zODQvb3JpZ2luYWwvc2lnbWEtNy01MHRoLmpwZw==
    Fifty years ago today, the United States launched its fifth astronaut into space.
    Credit: NASA/RetroSpaceImages.com via collectSPACE.com

    Walter M. "Wally" Schirra, Jr. rode his one-man Mercury spacecraft atop an Atlas rocket to orbit on Oct. 3, 1962. The nine-hour mission on the "Sigma 7" capsule was the longest to date for a U.S. flight and set the stage for the day-long final mission of the Mercury Program that followed.

    Schirra, whose choice of the Greek letter "Sigma" for his spacecraft's name was meant to reflect his flight's focus on technical evaluation, wrote in his biography that he strove for "engineering excellence." To that end, the almost flawless flight of Sigma 7 ended with a nearly-perfect splashdown, landing just half a mile (0.8 kilometers) from the Navy's recovery ship.

    https://www.space.com/17873-schirra-sigma-7-50th-anniversary.html

    "I think they're gonna put me on the number 3 elevator" of the aircraft carrier the USS Kearsarge, Schirra joked of his parachute-assisted descent. It could have been the ultimate of Schirra's "gotchas" — jokes that he infamously pulled on his friends, colleagues and later crewmates.

    He could fall victim to them, too. Just three minutes into the Mercury-Atlas 8 mission, capsule communicator, or capcom, Deke Slayton radioed Schirra with a simple-to-ask but complicated-to-answer question, "Hey, Wally, are you a turtle?" A tradition carried over from World War II pilots, the correct reply, "You bet your sweet ass I am!" was not something Schirra could broadcast to the world below. The penalty for not responding, however, was having to buy all those listening a drink of their choice.

    Not missing a beat, Schirra switched from live radio to his onboard recorder and spoke the "correct answer," as NASA's official transcript would later note. [Gallery: Schirra’s Sigma 7 at 50]

    aHR0cDovL3d3dy5zcGFjZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzAyMi8zODUvb3JpZ2luYWwvc2lnbWEtNy1jYXBzdWxlLWF0bGFzLTUuanBnPzEzNDkyNzIzMDY=
    NASA astronaut Walter "Wally" Schirra launched aboard the "Sigma 7" Mercury spacecraft atop an Atlas rocket at 7:15:11 a.m. EST on Oct. 3, 1962 from Complex 14 at Cape Canaveral, Fla.
    Credit: NASA/RetroSpaceImages.com via collectSPACE.com

    Beyond the jokes, Schirra conducted observations of the planet Mercury, tracking its passage as seen through the upper layers of Earth's atmosphere, and flew the first Hasselblad camera in space, a model he himself chose and purchased at a local Houston photo shop.

    Schirra also bought and wore on Sigma 7 the first Omega Speedmaster watch to fly in space, initiating the chronograph's long legacy as the timepiece of choice for both astronauts and cosmonauts to this day.

    Schirra, who went on to fly Gemini and Apollo missions — the only astronaut to fly all three of NASA's early piloted spacecraft — died in May 2007 at age 84. His Mercury capsule, Sigma 7, is today on display at the U.S. Astronaut Hall of Fame in Titusville, Fla., where Schirra is honored as one of the Hall's original inductees.
    showcase%2B43%2Bdr%2Bno.jpg
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,803
    Astronaut Wally Schirra's taste in equipment is beyond question. He hand-picked the best.

    Wally Schirra's original Speedmaster is now a part of the Omega Museum collection in Switzerland.
    (Speedmaster-Mission.net)
    news-030912d.jpgmqdefault.jpg

    Hasselblad camera.
    54d10544f259f_-_schirra-04.jpg?resize=480:*

    And its OO7 counterpart--the Hasselblad camera Signature gun.
    LTKSIgnGun4.jpg
    Hasselblad_Signature_Gun.jpg
    GW470H231

    Wally with both of his, plus an image taken from space.
    cole-rise-hasselblad-500c-space-wally-schirra.jpg
    81200fc3c9d1ade301a4c788cee26cc2--aviation-air.jpg
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,264
    Thank you @j_w_pepper ! seems there's a lot for me to learn still!
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited January 2018 Posts: 13,803
    Bondathon-such a dumb word.

    But there you have another connection. At least on this board.
    Bondathon as in marathon. I can find an instance of the m-word and will table that one.
    jack-purcell-otr.jpg?resize=290%2C241016c6a63d93507a442eb185e03e446f6.jpg

    To raise the bar, would the next level be Bondathlon?
    One-liner skills. Taste in fine food, drink, women. Staying the distance in movie viewings.
    Still standing ready to support an MI6 member in need. Community and country.
    14058415-woman-and-glass.jpg

    Segue to biathlon. At least one of those. I'll catch up.
    Biathlon-1-300x181.jpg
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited January 2018 Posts: 13,803
    I have another delta wing aircraft ID. Dialog only.
    Tomorrow Never Dies, Roger Spottiswoode, 1997.
    Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21
    .

    [H.M.S. Bedford, British Fleet]
    Seaman: Missile lock-on.

    Officer: Send a signal to the Admiralty: "Task group under missile attack."

    Officer: Sir, AWACS reports two waves of land-based MiG-21s inbound. The first group should be on our screens in two minutes.

    [Stealth Ship]
    Carver: How long before the MiGs are within firing range of the British fleet?

    Gupta: Twelve minutes.

    Carver: What the hell do I pay you for?

    mig_21_mongolia_1_by_ws_clave-d7vvgg7.jpg
    MiG-21-PF-rev-2.jpg


    Earlier in the film, on screen Chinese (CGI) MiGs are likely (non-delta wing) MiG-23s. If the filmmakers had favored reality they would have stuck with the MiG-21.

    Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23
    impdb.org/index.php?title=Tomorrow_Never_Dies#Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23
    Tomorrow_MIG1.jpg
    Tomorrow_MIG2.jpg
    mig_23_algeria_1_by_ws_clave-dahxpbd.jpg
    mikoyan_gurevich_mig_23_mpd-28203.jpg

    In the Raymond Benson Tomorrow Never Dies novelization, MiG-29s appear in Bond's opening mission at the terrorist arms bazaar. (And the aircraft shot down by Carver's stealth ship and located underwater are MiG-21s.)

    Mikoyan MiG-29
    mig_29a_cuba_2_by_ws_clave-d2f1p7q.jpg
    183494dc6c263185f4439f7271143ba4--google-wings.jpg
    Cigar.jpg
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    Another keyword, pilfered from another recent thread: Pegasos (aka Pegasus), in AVTAK and GE (statue run over by Bond's tank). Lest I forget.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,803
    A good one--and another good one, @j_w_pepper. Will do this next.
    silueta-del-caballo-de-pegaso-66454686.jpg
  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,176
    While we're waiting, here's the lovely Gillian Anderson playing the head of MI7, codename Pegasus, in Johnny English Reborn:

    Johnny-English-Poster-Gillian-Anderson.jpg

    (Tenuous Bond connection: Rosamund Pike is in the cast. But really I just wanted to post a picture of Gillian Anderson holding a cat.)

    (The cat is called Philby and I cannot believe I remembered that.)
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    edited January 2018 Posts: 9,041
    Just so you won't get too complacent, @RichardTheBruce, there's a C-130 Hercules (which I realise should be a Heracles for the purpose of this thread) in LTK TLD. [slip of the keyboard corrected]
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited January 2018 Posts: 13,803
    Pegasos / Πήγασος ; Pḗgasos / pĕg′·ə·səs / noun
    1. a white horse with wings, maker of wells with a hoof stomp
    2. the constellation, Northern Hemisphere, adjoins Aquarius, Andromeda

    Greek (Pēgasos, from pêgê, fountain). Latin (Pēgasus, Pegasi).

    Pegasos: a white, winged horse in Greek myth. Immortal. Born of a union between Poseidon (in bird or horse form) and Medusa—when Perseus cut off the Gorgon’s head brothers Pegasos and Chryasor emerged. The horse of the Muses. In competition between the nine Muses and the nine daughters of Pierus on Mount Helicon, darkness of heaven, sea, and rivers came with the daughters’ song. Helicon rose upward. Zeus compelled Pegasos to kick the mountain, creating the well of the Muses, Hippocrene. And other Greek wells.

    Hero Bellephoron (helped by Athena) caught and trained Pegasos to aid his battle with Chimera, then against the Amazons. Bellephoron sought to ride Pegasos to Mount Olympus--Zeus threw Bellephoron off. So only Pegasos completed the journey— becoming the bearer of thunder and lightning from Zeus—and the constellation itself. The rise of the constellation Pegasos signals Spring.

    Popular in Greek art and coin, many times with Bellephoron or Athena.
    8744776_1.jpg?v=8CC47DB97BF3DA0
    Pegasos
    83c3b500e7c0dc066fd84e5e01f7ae0c.jpg
    Bellephoron with Pegasos battles Chimera.
    bellerophon2.jpg
    Chimera against Bellephoron and Pegasos.
    ancient-Bellerophon.png
    912098878.jpg
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited January 2018 Posts: 13,803
    A View to a Kill, John Glen, 1985.
    A day at the races. With bets on Pegasus.
    A-View-to-a-Kill-James-Bond-Lois-Maxwell-Roger-Moore-Desmond-Llewelyn-Patrick-Macnee-Robert-Brown.png


    Pegasus Stable”, John Barry, 1985.


    “Microchips/Pegasus Wins/To Paris”, John Barry, 1985.

    Another Pegasus: Fusaichi Pegasus - $64 Million worth.
    caballo-fusaichi-pegasus-caballo-mas-caro-mundo.jpg
    racing-horse-logo-1.png
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited January 2018 Posts: 13,803
    Licence to Kill, John Glen, 1989.
    Pegaso VAP 3550 Military armored vehicle
    . 00:55:59
    i196175.jpg
    vap01.jpg
    vap05.jpg
    Simple_full_lack_running_pegasus_silhouette_tattoo_design.png
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,803
    GoldenEye, Martin Campbell, 1995.
    A drive through St. Petersburg lifts a Pegasus.
    KhPZ T-54.
    i018329.jpg
    goldeneye.jpg
    438A_JAMES_BOND_ARCHIVES_XL_00399_Gallery-1000x689.jpg
    949db152866fb7c43847db2bf337fb08.jpg
    KhPZ T-54.
    T-54_1949.png

    The Bronze Horseman (Peter the Great), Senate Square , Saint Petersburg, Russia. Commissioned by Catherine the Great. French sculptor Étienne Maurice Falconet.
    49.jpg
    Tamburlaine the Great, Part II, Christopher Marlowe.
    ACT IV - Scene III
    .

    To Byron here, where thus I honour you?
    The horse that guide the golden eye of heaven,
    And blow the morning from their nostrils,
    Making their fiery gait above the clouds…
    https%3A%2F%2Fuserscontent2.emaze.com%2Fimages%2F58f73a46-5299-4916-a573-ec17bdb7937a%2F0a315063ed42a592568a9e17a324a2ab.png
  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,176
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Just so you won't get too complacent, @RichardTheBruce, there's a C-130 Hercules (which I realise should be a Heracles for the purpose of this thread) in LTK.

    *cough* TLD. Excellent Greeking, though!

    TLD also contains a Harrier powered by the Pegasus engine :)
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    Thanks for the correction. Applied above.

    And what brand of sneakers does Craig wear, at least in the CR Venice scenes? Right.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited January 2018 Posts: 13,803
    Agent_99 wrote: »
    TLD also contains a Harrier powered by the Pegasus engine :)


    The Living Daylights, John Glen, 1987.
    Hawker Siddeley Harrier T4A (Rolls Royce 103 Pegasus engine, from December 1973).
    http://www.impdb.org/index.php?title=The_Living_Daylights#Hawker_Siddeley_Harrier_T4A

    Used to extract Koskov.
    TLDHarrier_2.jpg
    TLDHarrier.jpg
    T4A
    800px-Hawker_Siddeley_Harrier_T4A%2C_UK_-_Navy_AN1401293.jpg
    Rolls Royce 103 Pegasus engine.
    FullSizeRender-2.jpg?fit=1024%2C768
    FullSizeRender.jpg?w=478&h=358&crop
    7792b2137038222469aff526db546421bf2f7040.pngANd9GcQx1h-sohFTYi4T_5dxYBncphn2aVZplad9UVrUKAkbPPF5_LNyEQ.jpg
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited January 2018 Posts: 13,803
    Casino Royale, Martin Campbell, 2006.
    Pegasus Opera II payroll system
    used to pay cast and crew.

    Pegasus30.gif
    EON Productions
    http://www.pegasus.co.uk/content.asp?PagePath=Home/Software/Case%20Studies/EON%20Productions
    A Licence to use cutting edge technology!

    We live in a world that looks to technology and gadgetry to give us an edge over our competitors. Xperience, a Strategic Partner of Pegasus Software, delivers that cutting edge technology to its customers in many different ways and across many industries. There are very few better exponents of gadgetry than ‘007’ – James Bond himself and it was to Xperience that the makers of the James Bond film, ‘Casino Royale’, turned to when it came to paying the cast and crew for this mission in the James Bond Career. EON Productions selected Xperience to supply a secure solution to this most important task.

    “Xperience supplied and supported the Pegasus Opera II payroll system used to pay the cast and crew on the latest James Bond Film production ‘Casino Royale.’”
    co017_-_pferd_mit_fluegel_001.jpgPegasus-LOGO.png
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited January 2018 Posts: 13,803
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    And what brand of sneakers does Craig wear, at least in the CR Venice scenes? Right.

    Okay, I want to confirm this one, @j_w_pepper.

    In his personal life Daniel Craig
    has worn the Nike Air Pegasus 83s.
    img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=866258591.jpg?resize=300%2C172
    In Casino Royale/Venice bond wears Nike Air Articulate II trainers.

    So the path taken here is obviously...the Greek Goddess Nike.
    [I actually expected a different segue from Pegasus.]
    85d5762ba542b68c3f973efe1287ce0f--how-to-craft-writing-characters.jpg
  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,176
    Pegasus Opera II payroll system used to pay cast and crew.

    The deepest of deep undercover investigations. I am very impressed.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,803
    More impressed with your Harrier Rolls Royce Pegasus item, @Agent_99.

    Not Greek but probably the most interesting aviation story to me is the incredible event of Britain handing over Rolls Royce jet engine technology to the Soviet Union--literally a gift.

    Used for their MiG-15, the Korean War match to our US F-86 Sabre Jet.

    On the MiG-15 from Wikipedia:
    The Germans had been unable to develop turbojets with thrust over 1,130 kiloponds (11,100 N; 2,500 lbf) running at the time of the surrender in May 1945, which limited the performance of immediate Soviet postwar jet aircraft designs. They did inherit the technology of the advanced axial compressor Junkers 012 and BMW 018 engines, in the class of the later Rolls-Royce Avon, that were some years ahead of the currently available British Rolls-Royce Nene engine. The Soviet aviation minister Mikhail Khrunichev and aircraft designer A. S. Yakovlev suggested to Premier Joseph Stalin that the USSR buy the conservative but fully developed Nene engines from Rolls-Royce for the purpose of copying them in a minimum of time. Stalin is said to have replied, "What fool will sell us his secrets?"

    However, he gave his consent to the proposal and Mikoyan, engine designer Vladimir Klimov, and others travelled to the United Kingdom to request the engines. To Stalin's amazement, the British Labour government and its Minister of Trade, Sir Stafford Cripps, were perfectly willing to provide technical information and a license to manufacture the Rolls-Royce Nene. Sample engines were purchased and delivered with blueprints. Following evaluation and adaptation to Russian conditions, the windfall technology was tooled for mass-production as the Klimov RD-45 to be incorporated into the MiG-15.
    mig_15_vs_f86_sabre_by_fisher22-d7ttvyq.jpg

    Recommended: The Hunters by James Salter.
    1042037_SalterJ_Hunters.jpg
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    At the risk of digressing once more, Bond's request for Drax to take "a giant leap for mankind" refers to the Apollo 11 moon landing, which I'm sure you, @RichardTheBruce, and I both watched live on TV in July, 1969. The difference being that I had to get up around 0200 hours in the morning while you must have enjoyed regular prime time TV in that regard.
  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,176
    Recommended: The Hunters by James Salter.

    !!!

    That is my favourite novel. (I know. You're astonished.)

    I bought it as a holiday read because it had planes on the cover, and quickly realised I'd stumbled upon something really special.

    In 2013 I was lucky enough to see James Salter speak at the South Bank (he died two years later). I'm shy about asking questions in front of an audience, and everyone in this audience was asking very serious, highbrow literary questions, so I waited until he was signing my tatty paperback Hunters to mutter "What was it like flying Sabres?"

    "Oh, I can't tell you in one word," he said. "It's a kick, that's what it is. It's wonderful."

    He was wonderful.

    234228_300.jpg
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,803
    Awesome, @Agent_99. Unbelievable. I stopped short of identifying it as my favorite novel. It is my favorite novel.

    You must have read his autobiography Burning the Days. One quote from him crystallizes the meaning of The Hunters for me, as it speaks to the realities (and deep frustrations) of military service.
    It was victory we longed for and imagined.
    You could not steal or be given it.
    No man on earth was rich enough to buy it and it was worth nothing.
    In the end it was worth nothing at all.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    I must admit I never heard of him...or forgot. At least I never read anything he wrote. But @Agent_99's accolades made me curious, so I just ordered a used copy of The Hunters via amazon.de.
  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,176
    @RichardTheBruce, I actually haven't read Burning the Days, but I will make it a priority now. (I've read some of his other fiction and it's wonderfully well-written, but, y'know, lacking in the aviation department.)

    And hurrah, @j_w_pepper! I hope you love it as much as I do, or nearly!
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,803
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    At the risk of digressing once more, Bond's request for Drax to take "a giant leap for mankind" refers to the Apollo 11 moon landing, which I'm sure you, @RichardTheBruce, and I both watched live on TV in July, 1969. The difference being that I had to get up around 0200 hours in the morning while you must have enjoyed regular prime time TV in that regard.
    I'm afraid you've revealed yourself as my senior, @j_w_pepper. I was born 1965 Y.B. (in the Year of our Bond), so I don't recall that in memory. Maybe my earliest firm recollection is being pulled to the set to witness Hank Aaron beat Babe Ruth's home run record (likely you didn't stay up for that one). I'm not a sports fan today, but my father was smart to set that in my experience.

    Apollo and a giant leap for mankind are definitely in play.
    You know we can squeeze out a couple more references on that one.
    neilarmstrong1__tcp_medium.jpg
Sign In or Register to comment.