Which do you like more: The Chemistry between Brosnan & Dench or Craig & Dench?

2

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  • edited April 2013 Posts: 12,837
    Underwater Lotus torture? I think that's one of the greatest moments of the entire series.
    M: "Here's you mission."
    Bond: "Cool. Laters!"

    That's why I liked Brosnan and Dench. It was something different (the GE scene is probably my favourite Bond/M scene of the series), and M was more of a character than ever before.

    But she (excluding TWINE) she wasn't really involved with the story, and at the end of the day she was still there to just give Bond his mission. And that's the way it should be imo.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    That's why I liked Brosnan and Dench. It was something different (the GE scene is probably my favourite Bond/M scene of the series), and M was more of a character than ever before.

    This is definitely the best Dench - Bond scene IMO. The gradual swell of her role, which began in TWINE and hit it's zenith in SF was driven by their want to use Dench, not specifically 'M'. She was spunky in GE, but by the time she utters the line 'and you know we need you' in SF, it felt a bit like I'd seen it all before. I'm very much looking forward to seeing Fiennes in 24.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I need to revisit the era again soon, but I always feel that the Bond/M relationship in the Brosnan era just doesn't have any meat on it. There isn't any real depth between them in their relationship and sometimes I just feel like M doesn't care about Bond.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    I need to revisit the era again soon, but I always feel that the Bond/M relationship in the Brosnan era just doesn't have any meat on it. There isn't any real depth between them in their relationship and sometimes I just feel like M doesn't care about Bond.

    She's at her best in GE and TND, I disliked her SF-esque involvement in TWINE and I am relatively ambivalent about her role in DAD.

    In both GE and TND she functions as a fresh, interesting take on a staple character. She's clearly in charge but there's a definite chemistry between the two, offset by Bond's Moneypenny, who herself is top of her game in these two films.

    I completely disagree that she doesn't care about Bond, there's an obvious relationship there, evidenced beautifully in TND with her 'pump her for information line'. She understands who and what Bond is, she's certainly not keen on his methods but you get the sense there's a mutual respect and a strong sense of levity beneath her hard exterior, a duality if you will, that makes her more interesting to me. I much prefer the cocky, confident M in these two outings to the primarily frustrated M of the previous two entries. Even her lines about 'Your bloody well not sleeping here' and 'your interior decorating tips are always appreciated' don't quite have the same zip or zest. They're amusing, but for me would be better offset with her GE and TND persona where you feel she's a real matriarch, rather than a slightly weakened mother figure.

    When she utters the line about 'not leaving until the job's done', I struggle to buy it as over the course of three films I've seen her abilities diminish before my eyes, with no façade to counter this character development. It makes sense that it all leads to her death but I wish I'd seen more of the hard ass 'M' struggling to maintain her leadership.
  • Posts: 1,817
    This is hard to say... She had an interesting but different chemistry with both. One interesting thing is that the emotional impact of the demise in SF greatly depends on knowing her for 7 movies and not only Craig's, which is complex because they are two different timelines.
    Which do I like more? I'll say Brosnan's era mostly because of his introduction in GE, the acceptance in the following movies and the tension in DAD. But Craig is very very close (now I'm thinking in reverse my opinion when I recall the conversation in M's flat, the final call in CR, and SF... QOS have to many M moments and emotional ones, it can trivialize the relationship a little.)

    So my ranking M-Bond chemistry would be like this:

    001 Connery (and Lazenby) and Lee
    002 Brosnan and Dench
    003 Craig and Dench
    004 Dalton and Brown
    005 Moore and Brown
    006 Moore and Lee
  • Posts: 1,492
    Craig/dench for me. The acting and script are stratospherically better.

    I am not convinced Brosnan had good chemistry with any of his screen ladies
  • Posts: 12,837
    I need to revisit the era again soon, but I always feel that the Bond/M relationship in the Brosnan era just doesn't have any meat on it

    When they meet in GE she's this confident new authority figure that doesn't like Bonds methods and thinks that he's a dinosaur and Bond isn't a fan of the bureaucratic way she runs things. But there is sort of a mutual respect between them and she does learn to trust Bond to get the job done even if she doesn't like his methods.

    I reckon that's a fairly meaty relationship, especially compared to the Bond/M scenes before it.
    There isn't any real depth between them in their relationship and sometimes I just feel like M doesn't care about Bond.

    Completely disagree here. I think the "come back alive" line in Goldeneye shows she cares plenty. I think she does care about Bond but she hides it a bit and she doesn't act like his mum.
    actonsteve wrote:
    script are stratospherically better.

    Craig is a better actor than Brosnan but I think M was written much better in the Brosnan era, especially Goldeneye.

    I preferred the sharp new M who didn't like Bonds methods to the old incompetent mummy M who even after all the trust issue bollocks in QOS doesn't trust her best agent enough to do his job.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    actonsteve wrote:
    I am not convinced Brosnan had good chemistry with any of his screen ladies

    There are a lot of things I could objectively accept regards Brosnan's shortcomings, but I wouldn't say this is one of them. Acting and scripts aside, Brosnan has a twinkle in his eye that even Craig can't match at times.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited April 2013 Posts: 17,804
    There isn't any real depth between them in their relationship and sometimes I just feel like M doesn't care about Bond.
    Roebuck: "What the hell is he doing?!"
    M: "His job."
    I preferred the sharp new M who didn't like Bonds methods to the old incompetent mummy M who even after all the trust issue bollocks in QOS doesn't trust her best agent enough to do his job.

    Oh, I *SO* agree with this.
  • RC7RC7
    edited April 2013 Posts: 10,512
    chrisisall wrote:
    There isn't any real depth between them in their relationship and sometimes I just feel like M doesn't care about Bond.
    Roebuck: "What the hell is he doing?!"
    M: "His job."
    I preferred the sharp new M who didn't like Bonds methods to the old incompetent mummy M who even after all the trust issue bollocks in QOS doesn't trust her best agent enough to do his job.

    Oh, I *SO* agree with this.

    Ditt-motherf***ing-o
  • Seven_Point_Six_FiveSeven_Point_Six_Five Southern California
    Posts: 1,257
    M: "Here's you mission."
    Bond: "Cool. Laters!"

    I know you're being facetious, but this is actually how I perceive the earlier Bond/M relationships. This is why I like Dench's M, we just get more out of the character... admittedly, maybe too much at times. With that said, I wouldn't mind seeing M take a smaller role in the future.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited April 2013 Posts: 28,694
    chrisisall wrote:
    There isn't any real depth between them in their relationship and sometimes I just feel like M doesn't care about Bond.
    Roebuck: "What the hell is he doing?!"
    M: "His job."

    Wow, that sure is deep! My mind is completely changed on the subject. :-\"
    M: "Here's you mission."
    Bond: "Cool. Laters!"

    I know you're being facetious, but this is actually how I perceive the earlier Bond/M relationships. This is why I like Dench's M, we just get more out of the character... admittedly, maybe too much at times. With that said, I wouldn't mind seeing M take a smaller role in the future.

    With Fiennes as M, I don't know if that will happen. I won't care regardless, as I love seeing more of M and Bond as their relationship grows. It will be cool to see how Bond acts around and reacts to Gareth now, since they were unsteady and unsure about each other beforehand. I think it will be a great relationship, as both men have a dedication to duty and have been in the thick of the action, very much old relics.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited April 2013 Posts: 12,480
    I loved Brosnan and Dench together, especially in the first two. Excellent chemistry and well written dialog.

    I also love Dench and Craig - so honestly I cannot choose at this time, one over the other. I'm just happy I have gotten to enjoy both pairs working together; wonderful screen chemistry and some of the highlights of the Bond films for me.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited April 2013 Posts: 17,804
    chrisisall wrote:
    There isn't any real depth between them in their relationship and sometimes I just feel like M doesn't care about Bond.
    Roebuck: "What the hell is he doing?!"
    M: "His job."

    Wow, that sure is deep! My mind is completely changed on the subject. :-\"

    A lot deeper than risking Bond's life because she didn't trust him in a certain questionable flick... :))
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    chrisisall wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    There isn't any real depth between them in their relationship and sometimes I just feel like M doesn't care about Bond.
    Roebuck: "What the hell is he doing?!"
    M: "His job."

    Wow, that sure is deep! My mind is completely changed on the subject. :-\"

    A lot deeper than risking Bond's life because she didn't trust him in a certain questionable flick... :))

    I don't remember that ever happening, but it wouldn't be the first time you misread Skyfall (which is the film I assume you are talking about).
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    I don't remember that ever happening, but it wouldn't be the first time you misread Skyfall
    Yes, I had it wrong- that never happened at all.

    b-(
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    chrisisall wrote:
    I don't remember that ever happening, but it wouldn't be the first time you misread Skyfall
    Yes, I had it wrong- that never happened at all.

    b-(

    Being serious now, are you talking about the meeting with M, Mallory and Bond where M knows he failed his tests (which she tells Tanner after Bond sets off to meet Q)?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    are you talking about the meeting with M, Mallory and Bond where M knows he failed his tests (which she tells Tanner after Bond sets off to meet Q)?

    No, I meant that "Take the shot" business.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    chrisisall wrote:
    I don't remember that ever happening, but it wouldn't be the first time you misread Skyfall
    Yes, I had it wrong- that never happened at all.

    b-(

    Being serious now, are you talking about the meeting with M, Mallory and Bond where M knows he failed his tests (which she tells Tanner after Bond sets off to meet Q)?

    No he means she didn't trust him to 'finish the job' so risks his life by ordering the shot.
  • edited April 2013 Posts: 12,837
    M must have been going senile by SF. She seemed to have forgotten an important lesson she'd spent a whole movie learning.

    At the end of Quantum, M learns to finally trust Bond.

    At the beginning of Skyfall, she decides the best course of action is to shoot at Patrice, likely losing the list since he'd probably fall off into the water, instead of trusting Bond (and how many fights has he lost over his career ffs) to finish the job.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    At the end of Quantum, M learns to finally trust Bond.
    AGAIN!
    Oh, that's right- she's not the SAME M from the Brosnan years...

    So, okay, I can wrap my head around that....

    Yes, the end of Quantum was very nice from that POV... so with that in mind, is Skyfall a minor reboot AFTER a major reboot?????

    OR... are we just back to the historical inconsistency in the Bond movies that began (arguably) in the Seventies?
    :-??
  • edited April 2013 Posts: 12,837
    @chrisisall I think you're thinking too hard about it. Not a minor reboot, just M being bad at her job.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    M must have been going senile by SF. She seemed to have forgotten an important lesson she'd spent a whole movie learning.

    At the end of Quantum, M learns to finally trust Bond.

    At the beginning of Skyfall, she decides the best course of action is to shoot at Patrice, likely losing the list since he'd probably fall off into the water, instead of trusting Bond (and how many fights has he lost over his career ffs) to finish the job.

    To be fair, if Patrice got shot and the list was lost as he fell into the water, it would be a lot better than if Bond was defeated/died and Patrice got away with the list, as we saw. M wasn't being bad at her job, she was weighing options and found that it was better to risk endangering Bond and having a chance at not letting the list get away than to let Patrice get away, list in tow. If it was anyone not doing their bloody job it was Eve.
  • edited April 2013 Posts: 11,189
    Craig and Dench worked very well together (her death is one of the best acted scenes in the series) but I have a nagging feeling Dench was more chummy with Brosnan when the camera's weren't on. Obviously I can't be certain but I just sense it. The little smiles they give eachother at times just feel...natural and quite warm to me.
  • edited April 2013 Posts: 12,837
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Craig and Dench worked very well together (her death is one of the best acted scenes in the series) but I have a nagging feeling Dench was more chummy with Brosnan when the camera's weren't on. Obviously I can't be certain but I just sense it. The little smiles they give eachother at times just feel...natural and quite warm to me.

    I remember somebody posting an article on here once where Dench talked about Brosnan and it did seem like she liked him. Hang on a sec.

    EDIT: This one http://www.people.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2011/11/13/daniel-s-fantastic-but-i-do-miss-pierce-says-dame-judi-102039-23557714/
  • edited April 2013 Posts: 11,189
    Yeah that was me :) She also said in her autobiography (although probably a Ghost Writer - see what I did there :p ) that "working with Pierce was lovely".
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Craig and Dench worked very well together (her death is one of the best acted scenes in the series) but I have a nagging feeling Dench was more chummy with Brosnan when the camera's weren't on. Obviously I can't be certain but I just sense it. The little smiles they give eachother at times just feel...natural and quite warm to me.

    I remember somebody posting an article on here once where Dench talked about Brosnan and it did seem like she liked him. Hang on a sec.

    EDIT: This one http://www.people.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2011/11/13/daniel-s-fantastic-but-i-do-miss-pierce-says-dame-judi-102039-23557714/

    I was trying to remember where I'd seen this. I was going to mention it but thought I'd get slapped down by the Craig fanboys.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    RC7 wrote:
    I was going to mention it but thought I'd get slapped down by the Craig fanboys.

    :)) =)) 8-} That's so funny!!!
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited April 2013 Posts: 28,694
    chrisisall wrote:
    RC7 wrote:
    I was going to mention it but thought I'd get slapped down by the Craig fanboys.

    :)) =)) 8-} That's so funny!!!
    Why would anyone slap you down? She has a great time with Dan too, so I don't see anything ground breaking in this news about her liking to work with Pierce. I am happy she enjoyed her time as M so much, happiness worthy of an actress of her status.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    I am happy she enjoyed her time as M so much, happiness worthy of an actress of her status.
    She was a most excellent addition to the Bond franchise!!!

    "Remiiiind her..."
    B-)
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