Worst plot in the entire franchise?

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  • Posts: 15,116
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It seems to be that however bad the stepbrother idea was, other ideas we avoided were worse: a female Blofeld, an African warlord? And like I suspected Logan appears to be the one behind the stepbrother idea, not Purvis and Wade.

    I'd take either of those over the stepbrother idea, honestly. Doesn't get much worse than that. Did they really think a return of Blofeld after several decades was only going to make an impact if they had a personal, familial connection?

    I wouldn't. At least with the stepbrother you can ignore it in future installments. Not with the other two.

    ????. I happen to see it completely the other way around.

    How so?

    Blofeld is a specific character. Making him Ernestina makes him a completely different character. Giving him completely different cultural and ethnical origins makes him another character. Giving him a different background and a past with Bond is a HUGE mistake don't get me wrong. But the rest is far closer to the original novel Blofeld than Ernestina or an African warlord with an inexplicable Germanic name (and I know Blofeld is Polish, but his name is still Germanic). Bond barely acknowledging the jealousy of his enemy makes it far easier to disregard it altogether in the future.

    But it still exists. If you can simply disregard a stepbrother connection, then you can easily disregard anything else and just recast Blofeld in the future with a new actor or something.

    Of course it still exists but it's easier to be disregarded than turning Blofeld into Ernestina or an improbable African warlord... then disregarding this threw a different casting.

    Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't mind at all if they had cast a female Blofeld. If they were going with a stepbrother idea, surely this wasn't outside the realm of possibilities?

    It's not like they'll carry a lot of this over to a new era, if any of it; I've no doubts when Blofeld returns inevitably with a new actor, the role will be recast with a new spin entirely and no stepbrother angle in sight.

    Nothing is outside the realm of possibilities but some ideas are worse than others and further from Fleming than others. I'll take the lesser evil thank you very much, given the choice. They could have made the angora cat a familiar spirit containing the demon named Blofeld, that possess Oberhauser. That's a possibility and the franchise has dabbled at least one before in the realm of supernatural. But that's a terrible.

    Bottom line: Blofeld is a man.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited March 2018 Posts: 40,968
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It seems to be that however bad the stepbrother idea was, other ideas we avoided were worse: a female Blofeld, an African warlord? And like I suspected Logan appears to be the one behind the stepbrother idea, not Purvis and Wade.

    I'd take either of those over the stepbrother idea, honestly. Doesn't get much worse than that. Did they really think a return of Blofeld after several decades was only going to make an impact if they had a personal, familial connection?

    I wouldn't. At least with the stepbrother you can ignore it in future installments. Not with the other two.

    ????. I happen to see it completely the other way around.

    How so?

    Blofeld is a specific character. Making him Ernestina makes him a completely different character. Giving him completely different cultural and ethnical origins makes him another character. Giving him a different background and a past with Bond is a HUGE mistake don't get me wrong. But the rest is far closer to the original novel Blofeld than Ernestina or an African warlord with an inexplicable Germanic name (and I know Blofeld is Polish, but his name is still Germanic). Bond barely acknowledging the jealousy of his enemy makes it far easier to disregard it altogether in the future.

    But it still exists. If you can simply disregard a stepbrother connection, then you can easily disregard anything else and just recast Blofeld in the future with a new actor or something.

    Of course it still exists but it's easier to be disregarded than turning Blofeld into Ernestina or an improbable African warlord... then disregarding this threw a different casting.

    Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't mind at all if they had cast a female Blofeld. If they were going with a stepbrother idea, surely this wasn't outside the realm of possibilities?

    It's not like they'll carry a lot of this over to a new era, if any of it; I've no doubts when Blofeld returns inevitably with a new actor, the role will be recast with a new spin entirely and no stepbrother angle in sight.

    Nothing is outside the realm of possibilities but some ideas are worse than others and further from Fleming than others. I'll take the lesser evil thank you very much, given the choice. They could have made the angora cat a familiar spirit containing the demon named Blofeld, that possess Oberhauser. That's a possibility and the franchise has dabbled at least one before in the realm of supernatural. But that's a terrible.

    Bottom line: Blofeld is a man.

    So what about Blofeld being Bond's father? Or Bond's son? Still makes him a man, but it's a ridiculous idea. Having ANY connection between Blofeld and Bond is ridiculous to me. Much tougher for me to forgive and look past than a woman Blofeld (wouldn't bother me in the slightest) or something else unique or different.

    A demon-possessed cat is obviously an extreme example, well past anything we saw in LALD.

    They should've eliminated any air of mystery and made it a Blofeld vs. Bond battle right off the bat and market that. No obvious twists you can smell coming years away, no 'Franz Oberhauser,' none of it. Could've been so much better. I feel like they put too much time into setting up a grand mystery of who Waltz was...in a movie called Spectre. Well I wonder!
  • Posts: 15,116
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It seems to be that however bad the stepbrother idea was, other ideas we avoided were worse: a female Blofeld, an African warlord? And like I suspected Logan appears to be the one behind the stepbrother idea, not Purvis and Wade.

    I'd take either of those over the stepbrother idea, honestly. Doesn't get much worse than that. Did they really think a return of Blofeld after several decades was only going to make an impact if they had a personal, familial connection?

    I wouldn't. At least with the stepbrother you can ignore it in future installments. Not with the other two.

    ????. I happen to see it completely the other way around.

    How so?

    Blofeld is a specific character. Making him Ernestina makes him a completely different character. Giving him completely different cultural and ethnical origins makes him another character. Giving him a different background and a past with Bond is a HUGE mistake don't get me wrong. But the rest is far closer to the original novel Blofeld than Ernestina or an African warlord with an inexplicable Germanic name (and I know Blofeld is Polish, but his name is still Germanic). Bond barely acknowledging the jealousy of his enemy makes it far easier to disregard it altogether in the future.

    But it still exists. If you can simply disregard a stepbrother connection, then you can easily disregard anything else and just recast Blofeld in the future with a new actor or something.

    Of course it still exists but it's easier to be disregarded than turning Blofeld into Ernestina or an improbable African warlord... then disregarding this threw a different casting.

    Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't mind at all if they had cast a female Blofeld. If they were going with a stepbrother idea, surely this wasn't outside the realm of possibilities?

    It's not like they'll carry a lot of this over to a new era, if any of it; I've no doubts when Blofeld returns inevitably with a new actor, the role will be recast with a new spin entirely and no stepbrother angle in sight.

    Nothing is outside the realm of possibilities but some ideas are worse than others and further from Fleming than others. I'll take the lesser evil thank you very much, given the choice. They could have made the angora cat a familiar spirit containing the demon named Blofeld, that possess Oberhauser. That's a possibility and the franchise has dabbled at least one before in the realm of supernatural. But that's a terrible.

    Bottom line: Blofeld is a man.

    So what about Blofeld being Bond's father? Or Bond's son? Still makes him a man, but it's a ridiculous idea. Having ANY connection between Blofeld and Bond is ridiculous to me. Much tougher for me to forgive and look past than a woman Blofeld (wouldn't bother me in the slightest) or something else unique or different.

    A demon-possessed cat is obviously an extreme example, well past anything we saw in LALD.

    They should've eliminated any air of mystery and made it a Blofeld vs. Bond battle right off the bat and market that. No obvious twists you can smell coming years away, no 'Franz Oberhauser,' none of it. Could've been so much better. I feel like they put too much time into setting up a grand mystery of who Waltz was...in a movie called Spectre. Well I wonder!

    You are building a strawman: I never said these would be good ideas or even mentioned them at all. I was comparing ideas that were considered in the creative process. I was joking about Blofeld's cat and did mention it would've been a terrible idea. I agree they shouldn't have tried to make Blofeld showing a twist... But it's neither here nor there regarding who Blofeld should be: linking him to Bond is ridiculous, otherwise he's still Ernst Stavro Blofeld, he is still closer to the source material than Ernestina.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It seems to be that however bad the stepbrother idea was, other ideas we avoided were worse: a female Blofeld, an African warlord? And like I suspected Logan appears to be the one behind the stepbrother idea, not Purvis and Wade.

    I'd take either of those over the stepbrother idea, honestly. Doesn't get much worse than that. Did they really think a return of Blofeld after several decades was only going to make an impact if they had a personal, familial connection?

    I wouldn't. At least with the stepbrother you can ignore it in future installments. Not with the other two.

    ????. I happen to see it completely the other way around.

    How so?

    Blofeld is a specific character. Making him Ernestina makes him a completely different character. Giving him completely different cultural and ethnical origins makes him another character. Giving him a different background and a past with Bond is a HUGE mistake don't get me wrong. But the rest is far closer to the original novel Blofeld than Ernestina or an African warlord with an inexplicable Germanic name (and I know Blofeld is Polish, but his name is still Germanic). Bond barely acknowledging the jealousy of his enemy makes it far easier to disregard it altogether in the future.

    But it still exists. If you can simply disregard a stepbrother connection, then you can easily disregard anything else and just recast Blofeld in the future with a new actor or something.

    Of course it still exists but it's easier to be disregarded than turning Blofeld into Ernestina or an improbable African warlord... then disregarding this threw a different casting.

    Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't mind at all if they had cast a female Blofeld. If they were going with a stepbrother idea, surely this wasn't outside the realm of possibilities?

    It's not like they'll carry a lot of this over to a new era, if any of it; I've no doubts when Blofeld returns inevitably with a new actor, the role will be recast with a new spin entirely and no stepbrother angle in sight.

    Nothing is outside the realm of possibilities but some ideas are worse than others and further from Fleming than others. I'll take the lesser evil thank you very much, given the choice. They could have made the angora cat a familiar spirit containing the demon named Blofeld, that possess Oberhauser. That's a possibility and the franchise has dabbled at least one before in the realm of supernatural. But that's a terrible.

    Bottom line: Blofeld is a man.

    So what about Blofeld being Bond's father? Or Bond's son? Still makes him a man, but it's a ridiculous idea. Having ANY connection between Blofeld and Bond is ridiculous to me. Much tougher for me to forgive and look past than a woman Blofeld (wouldn't bother me in the slightest) or something else unique or different.

    A demon-possessed cat is obviously an extreme example, well past anything we saw in LALD.

    They should've eliminated any air of mystery and made it a Blofeld vs. Bond battle right off the bat and market that. No obvious twists you can smell coming years away, no 'Franz Oberhauser,' none of it. Could've been so much better. I feel like they put too much time into setting up a grand mystery of who Waltz was...in a movie called Spectre. Well I wonder!

    You are building a strawman: I never said these would be good ideas or even mentioned them at all. I was comparing ideas that were considered in the creative process. I was joking about Blofeld's cat and did mention it would've been a terrible idea. I agree they shouldn't have tried to make Blofeld showing a twist... But it's neither here nor there regarding who Blofeld should be: linking him to Bond is ridiculous, otherwise he's still Ernst Stavro Blofeld, he is still closer to the source material than Ernestina.

    Yes, Blofeld being a woman is so far removed from the source material, but Bond and Blofeld being step brothers somehow isn't. Totally.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Blofeld needs to be put on ice until about B28..
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Blofeld needs to be put on ice until about B28..

    At this point they might as well just throw him down another chimney and forget he exists for another 20 years
  • Posts: 15,116
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It seems to be that however bad the stepbrother idea was, other ideas we avoided were worse: a female Blofeld, an African warlord? And like I suspected Logan appears to be the one behind the stepbrother idea, not Purvis and Wade.

    I'd take either of those over the stepbrother idea, honestly. Doesn't get much worse than that. Did they really think a return of Blofeld after several decades was only going to make an impact if they had a personal, familial connection?

    I wouldn't. At least with the stepbrother you can ignore it in future installments. Not with the other two.

    ????. I happen to see it completely the other way around.

    How so?

    Blofeld is a specific character. Making him Ernestina makes him a completely different character. Giving him completely different cultural and ethnical origins makes him another character. Giving him a different background and a past with Bond is a HUGE mistake don't get me wrong. But the rest is far closer to the original novel Blofeld than Ernestina or an African warlord with an inexplicable Germanic name (and I know Blofeld is Polish, but his name is still Germanic). Bond barely acknowledging the jealousy of his enemy makes it far easier to disregard it altogether in the future.

    But it still exists. If you can simply disregard a stepbrother connection, then you can easily disregard anything else and just recast Blofeld in the future with a new actor or something.

    Of course it still exists but it's easier to be disregarded than turning Blofeld into Ernestina or an improbable African warlord... then disregarding this threw a different casting.

    Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't mind at all if they had cast a female Blofeld. If they were going with a stepbrother idea, surely this wasn't outside the realm of possibilities?

    It's not like they'll carry a lot of this over to a new era, if any of it; I've no doubts when Blofeld returns inevitably with a new actor, the role will be recast with a new spin entirely and no stepbrother angle in sight.

    Nothing is outside the realm of possibilities but some ideas are worse than others and further from Fleming than others. I'll take the lesser evil thank you very much, given the choice. They could have made the angora cat a familiar spirit containing the demon named Blofeld, that possess Oberhauser. That's a possibility and the franchise has dabbled at least one before in the realm of supernatural. But that's a terrible.

    Bottom line: Blofeld is a man.

    So what about Blofeld being Bond's father? Or Bond's son? Still makes him a man, but it's a ridiculous idea. Having ANY connection between Blofeld and Bond is ridiculous to me. Much tougher for me to forgive and look past than a woman Blofeld (wouldn't bother me in the slightest) or something else unique or different.

    A demon-possessed cat is obviously an extreme example, well past anything we saw in LALD.

    They should've eliminated any air of mystery and made it a Blofeld vs. Bond battle right off the bat and market that. No obvious twists you can smell coming years away, no 'Franz Oberhauser,' none of it. Could've been so much better. I feel like they put too much time into setting up a grand mystery of who Waltz was...in a movie called Spectre. Well I wonder!

    You are building a strawman: I never said these would be good ideas or even mentioned them at all. I was comparing ideas that were considered in the creative process. I was joking about Blofeld's cat and did mention it would've been a terrible idea. I agree they shouldn't have tried to make Blofeld showing a twist... But it's neither here nor there regarding who Blofeld should be: linking him to Bond is ridiculous, otherwise he's still Ernst Stavro Blofeld, he is still closer to the source material than Ernestina.

    Yes, Blofeld being a woman is so far removed from the source material, but Bond and Blofeld being step brothers somehow isn't. Totally.

    Here's the strawman again: both are a departure from source material however a female Blofeld is MORE. And it makes this change far more difficult to ignore in subsequent movies for obvious reasons.

    You can disagree with my views all you want but please refrain from inventing views out of thin air, this is asinine.
  • Posts: 19,339
    00Agent wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Blofeld needs to be put on ice until about B28..

    At this point they might as well just throw him down another chimney and forget he exists for another 20 years

    Hahaha yes,thats a more attractive option !

  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Blofeld should actually be well-planned and thought-out. Eon has yet to deliver the perfect Blofeld. I wish they could cast Vincent Cassel in the role as he awfully looks the part. If only that'd be a reality which only they can grant.
  • Posts: 15,116
    Blofeld should actually be well-planned and thought-out. Eon has yet to deliver the perfect Blofeld. I wish they could cast Vincent Cassel in the role as he awfully looks the part. If only that'd be a reality which only they can grant.

    I agree that it was rushed. Maybe they should have waited for the next Bond actor. Blofeld would have been a good "hook" to start his tenure. I think bringing back Blofeld was a strong wish but they didn't know how to do it when they got the rights.

    That said not sure Cassel would have worked. Too French for the role. If it had been me I'd have someone like Ciaran Hinds or Brendan Gleeson. Large and could easily be thuggish looking.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It seems to be that however bad the stepbrother idea was, other ideas we avoided were worse: a female Blofeld, an African warlord? And like I suspected Logan appears to be the one behind the stepbrother idea, not Purvis and Wade.

    I'd take either of those over the stepbrother idea, honestly. Doesn't get much worse than that. Did they really think a return of Blofeld after several decades was only going to make an impact if they had a personal, familial connection?

    I wouldn't. At least with the stepbrother you can ignore it in future installments. Not with the other two.

    ????. I happen to see it completely the other way around.

    How so?

    Blofeld is a specific character. Making him Ernestina makes him a completely different character. Giving him completely different cultural and ethnical origins makes him another character. Giving him a different background and a past with Bond is a HUGE mistake don't get me wrong. But the rest is far closer to the original novel Blofeld than Ernestina or an African warlord with an inexplicable Germanic name (and I know Blofeld is Polish, but his name is still Germanic). Bond barely acknowledging the jealousy of his enemy makes it far easier to disregard it altogether in the future.

    But it still exists. If you can simply disregard a stepbrother connection, then you can easily disregard anything else and just recast Blofeld in the future with a new actor or something.

    Of course it still exists but it's easier to be disregarded than turning Blofeld into Ernestina or an improbable African warlord... then disregarding this threw a different casting.

    Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't mind at all if they had cast a female Blofeld. If they were going with a stepbrother idea, surely this wasn't outside the realm of possibilities?

    It's not like they'll carry a lot of this over to a new era, if any of it; I've no doubts when Blofeld returns inevitably with a new actor, the role will be recast with a new spin entirely and no stepbrother angle in sight.

    Nothing is outside the realm of possibilities but some ideas are worse than others and further from Fleming than others. I'll take the lesser evil thank you very much, given the choice. They could have made the angora cat a familiar spirit containing the demon named Blofeld, that possess Oberhauser. That's a possibility and the franchise has dabbled at least one before in the realm of supernatural. But that's a terrible.

    Bottom line: Blofeld is a man.

    So what about Blofeld being Bond's father? Or Bond's son? Still makes him a man, but it's a ridiculous idea. Having ANY connection between Blofeld and Bond is ridiculous to me. Much tougher for me to forgive and look past than a woman Blofeld (wouldn't bother me in the slightest) or something else unique or different.

    A demon-possessed cat is obviously an extreme example, well past anything we saw in LALD.

    They should've eliminated any air of mystery and made it a Blofeld vs. Bond battle right off the bat and market that. No obvious twists you can smell coming years away, no 'Franz Oberhauser,' none of it. Could've been so much better. I feel like they put too much time into setting up a grand mystery of who Waltz was...in a movie called Spectre. Well I wonder!

    You are building a strawman: I never said these would be good ideas or even mentioned them at all. I was comparing ideas that were considered in the creative process. I was joking about Blofeld's cat and did mention it would've been a terrible idea. I agree they shouldn't have tried to make Blofeld showing a twist... But it's neither here nor there regarding who Blofeld should be: linking him to Bond is ridiculous, otherwise he's still Ernst Stavro Blofeld, he is still closer to the source material than Ernestina.

    Yes, Blofeld being a woman is so far removed from the source material, but Bond and Blofeld being step brothers somehow isn't. Totally.

    Here's the strawman again: both are a departure from source material however a female Blofeld is MORE. And it makes this change far more difficult to ignore in subsequent movies for obvious reasons.

    You can disagree with my views all you want but please refrain from inventing views out of thin air, this is asinine.

    "Inventing views"? Not at all, it's how I feel. All I said was I'd prefer the other two ideas over a step brother connection, not inventing anything.

    It doesn't make it remotely difficult to change - just recast. Simple. It's not as if the Blofeld they created in SP is the only Blofeld that will feature in the series until the end of time. They'll recast, course correct, take a different approach, etc. Happens all the time.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    @Ludovico, after having seen him again in Ocean's Twelve only a couple of days ago, I couldn't help but think of Blofeld from the OHMSS novel. He has that quality look about him which makes him Bond's dark side of the coin, if you catch my drift. And then, there was Trance where I found his performance terrific. He could work as Blofeld, in my opinion, if he bends his accent to a Polish leaning.
  • Posts: 15,116
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It seems to be that however bad the stepbrother idea was, other ideas we avoided were worse: a female Blofeld, an African warlord? And like I suspected Logan appears to be the one behind the stepbrother idea, not Purvis and Wade.

    I'd take either of those over the stepbrother idea, honestly. Doesn't get much worse than that. Did they really think a return of Blofeld after several decades was only going to make an impact if they had a personal, familial connection?

    I wouldn't. At least with the stepbrother you can ignore it in future installments. Not with the other two.

    ????. I happen to see it completely the other way around.

    How so?

    Blofeld is a specific character. Making him Ernestina makes him a completely different character. Giving him completely different cultural and ethnical origins makes him another character. Giving him a different background and a past with Bond is a HUGE mistake don't get me wrong. But the rest is far closer to the original novel Blofeld than Ernestina or an African warlord with an inexplicable Germanic name (and I know Blofeld is Polish, but his name is still Germanic). Bond barely acknowledging the jealousy of his enemy makes it far easier to disregard it altogether in the future.

    But it still exists. If you can simply disregard a stepbrother connection, then you can easily disregard anything else and just recast Blofeld in the future with a new actor or something.

    Of course it still exists but it's easier to be disregarded than turning Blofeld into Ernestina or an improbable African warlord... then disregarding this threw a different casting.

    Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't mind at all if they had cast a female Blofeld. If they were going with a stepbrother idea, surely this wasn't outside the realm of possibilities?

    It's not like they'll carry a lot of this over to a new era, if any of it; I've no doubts when Blofeld returns inevitably with a new actor, the role will be recast with a new spin entirely and no stepbrother angle in sight.

    Nothing is outside the realm of possibilities but some ideas are worse than others and further from Fleming than others. I'll take the lesser evil thank you very much, given the choice. They could have made the angora cat a familiar spirit containing the demon named Blofeld, that possess Oberhauser. That's a possibility and the franchise has dabbled at least one before in the realm of supernatural. But that's a terrible.

    Bottom line: Blofeld is a man.

    So what about Blofeld being Bond's father? Or Bond's son? Still makes him a man, but it's a ridiculous idea. Having ANY connection between Blofeld and Bond is ridiculous to me. Much tougher for me to forgive and look past than a woman Blofeld (wouldn't bother me in the slightest) or something else unique or different.

    A demon-possessed cat is obviously an extreme example, well past anything we saw in LALD.

    They should've eliminated any air of mystery and made it a Blofeld vs. Bond battle right off the bat and market that. No obvious twists you can smell coming years away, no 'Franz Oberhauser,' none of it. Could've been so much better. I feel like they put too much time into setting up a grand mystery of who Waltz was...in a movie called Spectre. Well I wonder!

    You are building a strawman: I never said these would be good ideas or even mentioned them at all. I was comparing ideas that were considered in the creative process. I was joking about Blofeld's cat and did mention it would've been a terrible idea. I agree they shouldn't have tried to make Blofeld showing a twist... But it's neither here nor there regarding who Blofeld should be: linking him to Bond is ridiculous, otherwise he's still Ernst Stavro Blofeld, he is still closer to the source material than Ernestina.

    Yes, Blofeld being a woman is so far removed from the source material, but Bond and Blofeld being step brothers somehow isn't. Totally.

    Here's the strawman again: both are a departure from source material however a female Blofeld is MORE. And it makes this change far more difficult to ignore in subsequent movies for obvious reasons.

    You can disagree with my views all you want but please refrain from inventing views out of thin air, this is asinine.

    "Inventing views"? Not at all, it's how I feel. All I said was I'd prefer the other two ideas over a step brother connection, not inventing anything.

    It doesn't make it remotely difficult to change - just recast. Simple. It's not as if the Blofeld they created in SP is the only Blofeld that will feature in the series until the end of time. They'll recast, course correct, take a different approach, etc. Happens all the time.

    Inventing views I do not have. I thought I was clear. You can disagree with me but inventing strawmen is disingenuous.

    And yes sure they can recast. But it's easier to recast a middle aged white character with a middle aged white actor than changing gender!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It seems to be that however bad the stepbrother idea was, other ideas we avoided were worse: a female Blofeld, an African warlord? And like I suspected Logan appears to be the one behind the stepbrother idea, not Purvis and Wade.

    I'd take either of those over the stepbrother idea, honestly. Doesn't get much worse than that. Did they really think a return of Blofeld after several decades was only going to make an impact if they had a personal, familial connection?

    I wouldn't. At least with the stepbrother you can ignore it in future installments. Not with the other two.

    ????. I happen to see it completely the other way around.

    How so?

    Blofeld is a specific character. Making him Ernestina makes him a completely different character. Giving him completely different cultural and ethnical origins makes him another character. Giving him a different background and a past with Bond is a HUGE mistake don't get me wrong. But the rest is far closer to the original novel Blofeld than Ernestina or an African warlord with an inexplicable Germanic name (and I know Blofeld is Polish, but his name is still Germanic). Bond barely acknowledging the jealousy of his enemy makes it far easier to disregard it altogether in the future.

    But it still exists. If you can simply disregard a stepbrother connection, then you can easily disregard anything else and just recast Blofeld in the future with a new actor or something.

    Of course it still exists but it's easier to be disregarded than turning Blofeld into Ernestina or an improbable African warlord... then disregarding this threw a different casting.

    Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't mind at all if they had cast a female Blofeld. If they were going with a stepbrother idea, surely this wasn't outside the realm of possibilities?

    It's not like they'll carry a lot of this over to a new era, if any of it; I've no doubts when Blofeld returns inevitably with a new actor, the role will be recast with a new spin entirely and no stepbrother angle in sight.

    Nothing is outside the realm of possibilities but some ideas are worse than others and further from Fleming than others. I'll take the lesser evil thank you very much, given the choice. They could have made the angora cat a familiar spirit containing the demon named Blofeld, that possess Oberhauser. That's a possibility and the franchise has dabbled at least one before in the realm of supernatural. But that's a terrible.

    Bottom line: Blofeld is a man.

    So what about Blofeld being Bond's father? Or Bond's son? Still makes him a man, but it's a ridiculous idea. Having ANY connection between Blofeld and Bond is ridiculous to me. Much tougher for me to forgive and look past than a woman Blofeld (wouldn't bother me in the slightest) or something else unique or different.

    A demon-possessed cat is obviously an extreme example, well past anything we saw in LALD.

    They should've eliminated any air of mystery and made it a Blofeld vs. Bond battle right off the bat and market that. No obvious twists you can smell coming years away, no 'Franz Oberhauser,' none of it. Could've been so much better. I feel like they put too much time into setting up a grand mystery of who Waltz was...in a movie called Spectre. Well I wonder!

    You are building a strawman: I never said these would be good ideas or even mentioned them at all. I was comparing ideas that were considered in the creative process. I was joking about Blofeld's cat and did mention it would've been a terrible idea. I agree they shouldn't have tried to make Blofeld showing a twist... But it's neither here nor there regarding who Blofeld should be: linking him to Bond is ridiculous, otherwise he's still Ernst Stavro Blofeld, he is still closer to the source material than Ernestina.

    Yes, Blofeld being a woman is so far removed from the source material, but Bond and Blofeld being step brothers somehow isn't. Totally.

    Here's the strawman again: both are a departure from source material however a female Blofeld is MORE. And it makes this change far more difficult to ignore in subsequent movies for obvious reasons.

    You can disagree with my views all you want but please refrain from inventing views out of thin air, this is asinine.

    "Inventing views"? Not at all, it's how I feel. All I said was I'd prefer the other two ideas over a step brother connection, not inventing anything.

    It doesn't make it remotely difficult to change - just recast. Simple. It's not as if the Blofeld they created in SP is the only Blofeld that will feature in the series until the end of time. They'll recast, course correct, take a different approach, etc. Happens all the time.

    Inventing views I do not have. I thought I was clear. You can disagree with me but inventing strawmen is disingenuous.

    And yes sure they can recast. But it's easier to recast a middle aged white character with a middle aged white actor than changing gender!
    You know, in a way I think the woman or African warlord idea would have been preferable for the very reasons you note.

    While that may seem a contradiction, my thinking is as follows: If they had gone that route, then it would have been more clear that we were dealing with an abstraction. A creative fancy for this iteration in this self contained reboot universe. There would have been no doubt.

    By making him a white male and then adding on the brother element it's sort of trying to have it both ways.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It seems to be that however bad the stepbrother idea was, other ideas we avoided were worse: a female Blofeld, an African warlord? And like I suspected Logan appears to be the one behind the stepbrother idea, not Purvis and Wade.

    I'd take either of those over the stepbrother idea, honestly. Doesn't get much worse than that. Did they really think a return of Blofeld after several decades was only going to make an impact if they had a personal, familial connection?

    I wouldn't. At least with the stepbrother you can ignore it in future installments. Not with the other two.

    ????. I happen to see it completely the other way around.

    How so?

    Blofeld is a specific character. Making him Ernestina makes him a completely different character. Giving him completely different cultural and ethnical origins makes him another character. Giving him a different background and a past with Bond is a HUGE mistake don't get me wrong. But the rest is far closer to the original novel Blofeld than Ernestina or an African warlord with an inexplicable Germanic name (and I know Blofeld is Polish, but his name is still Germanic). Bond barely acknowledging the jealousy of his enemy makes it far easier to disregard it altogether in the future.

    But it still exists. If you can simply disregard a stepbrother connection, then you can easily disregard anything else and just recast Blofeld in the future with a new actor or something.

    Of course it still exists but it's easier to be disregarded than turning Blofeld into Ernestina or an improbable African warlord... then disregarding this threw a different casting.

    Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't mind at all if they had cast a female Blofeld. If they were going with a stepbrother idea, surely this wasn't outside the realm of possibilities?

    It's not like they'll carry a lot of this over to a new era, if any of it; I've no doubts when Blofeld returns inevitably with a new actor, the role will be recast with a new spin entirely and no stepbrother angle in sight.

    Nothing is outside the realm of possibilities but some ideas are worse than others and further from Fleming than others. I'll take the lesser evil thank you very much, given the choice. They could have made the angora cat a familiar spirit containing the demon named Blofeld, that possess Oberhauser. That's a possibility and the franchise has dabbled at least one before in the realm of supernatural. But that's a terrible.

    Bottom line: Blofeld is a man.

    So what about Blofeld being Bond's father? Or Bond's son? Still makes him a man, but it's a ridiculous idea. Having ANY connection between Blofeld and Bond is ridiculous to me. Much tougher for me to forgive and look past than a woman Blofeld (wouldn't bother me in the slightest) or something else unique or different.

    A demon-possessed cat is obviously an extreme example, well past anything we saw in LALD.

    They should've eliminated any air of mystery and made it a Blofeld vs. Bond battle right off the bat and market that. No obvious twists you can smell coming years away, no 'Franz Oberhauser,' none of it. Could've been so much better. I feel like they put too much time into setting up a grand mystery of who Waltz was...in a movie called Spectre. Well I wonder!

    You are building a strawman: I never said these would be good ideas or even mentioned them at all. I was comparing ideas that were considered in the creative process. I was joking about Blofeld's cat and did mention it would've been a terrible idea. I agree they shouldn't have tried to make Blofeld showing a twist... But it's neither here nor there regarding who Blofeld should be: linking him to Bond is ridiculous, otherwise he's still Ernst Stavro Blofeld, he is still closer to the source material than Ernestina.

    Yes, Blofeld being a woman is so far removed from the source material, but Bond and Blofeld being step brothers somehow isn't. Totally.

    Here's the strawman again: both are a departure from source material however a female Blofeld is MORE. And it makes this change far more difficult to ignore in subsequent movies for obvious reasons.

    You can disagree with my views all you want but please refrain from inventing views out of thin air, this is asinine.

    "Inventing views"? Not at all, it's how I feel. All I said was I'd prefer the other two ideas over a step brother connection, not inventing anything.

    It doesn't make it remotely difficult to change - just recast. Simple. It's not as if the Blofeld they created in SP is the only Blofeld that will feature in the series until the end of time. They'll recast, course correct, take a different approach, etc. Happens all the time.

    Inventing views I do not have. I thought I was clear. You can disagree with me but inventing strawmen is disingenuous.

    And yes sure they can recast. But it's easier to recast a middle aged white character with a middle aged white actor than changing gender!

    You're arguing that I'm inventing a view...that I already had about what I feel would've been a better avenue to take regarding who Blofeld is? I'm not even sure so we'll just agree to disagree on it. Some people love the twist, some people hate it, and some are indifferent. Personally, I thought the whole backstory they had regarding Blofeld and Mr. White sounded wonderfully inventive and unique.
  • Posts: 15,116
    @Ludovico, after having seen him again in Ocean's Twelve only a couple of days ago, I couldn't help but think of Blofeld from the OHMSS novel. He has that quality look about him which makes him Bond's dark side of the coin, if you catch my drift. And then, there was Trance where I found his performance terrific. He could work as Blofeld, in my opinion, if he bends his accent to a Polish leaning.

    Question is: can he do a Polish accent in English? Maybe I just think he's just too French. He does have something of OHMSS Blofeld though.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    bondjames wrote: »
    By making him a white male and then adding on the brother element it's sort of trying to have it both ways.
    Indeed. But, one thing I found awkwardly baffling is that... how did they take that brother angle seriously? It's beyond me, if I'm honest. Something only a ten year old would think of after having seen some superhero film.
  • Posts: 15,116
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It seems to be that however bad the stepbrother idea was, other ideas we avoided were worse: a female Blofeld, an African warlord? And like I suspected Logan appears to be the one behind the stepbrother idea, not Purvis and Wade.

    I'd take either of those over the stepbrother idea, honestly. Doesn't get much worse than that. Did they really think a return of Blofeld after several decades was only going to make an impact if they had a personal, familial connection?

    I wouldn't. At least with the stepbrother you can ignore it in future installments. Not with the other two.

    ????. I happen to see it completely the other way around.

    How so?

    Blofeld is a specific character. Making him Ernestina makes him a completely different character. Giving him completely different cultural and ethnical origins makes him another character. Giving him a different background and a past with Bond is a HUGE mistake don't get me wrong. But the rest is far closer to the original novel Blofeld than Ernestina or an African warlord with an inexplicable Germanic name (and I know Blofeld is Polish, but his name is still Germanic). Bond barely acknowledging the jealousy of his enemy makes it far easier to disregard it altogether in the future.

    But it still exists. If you can simply disregard a stepbrother connection, then you can easily disregard anything else and just recast Blofeld in the future with a new actor or something.

    Of course it still exists but it's easier to be disregarded than turning Blofeld into Ernestina or an improbable African warlord... then disregarding this threw a different casting.

    Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't mind at all if they had cast a female Blofeld. If they were going with a stepbrother idea, surely this wasn't outside the realm of possibilities?

    It's not like they'll carry a lot of this over to a new era, if any of it; I've no doubts when Blofeld returns inevitably with a new actor, the role will be recast with a new spin entirely and no stepbrother angle in sight.

    Nothing is outside the realm of possibilities but some ideas are worse than others and further from Fleming than others. I'll take the lesser evil thank you very much, given the choice. They could have made the angora cat a familiar spirit containing the demon named Blofeld, that possess Oberhauser. That's a possibility and the franchise has dabbled at least one before in the realm of supernatural. But that's a terrible.

    Bottom line: Blofeld is a man.

    So what about Blofeld being Bond's father? Or Bond's son? Still makes him a man, but it's a ridiculous idea. Having ANY connection between Blofeld and Bond is ridiculous to me. Much tougher for me to forgive and look past than a woman Blofeld (wouldn't bother me in the slightest) or something else unique or different.

    A demon-possessed cat is obviously an extreme example, well past anything we saw in LALD.

    They should've eliminated any air of mystery and made it a Blofeld vs. Bond battle right off the bat and market that. No obvious twists you can smell coming years away, no 'Franz Oberhauser,' none of it. Could've been so much better. I feel like they put too much time into setting up a grand mystery of who Waltz was...in a movie called Spectre. Well I wonder!

    You are building a strawman: I never said these would be good ideas or even mentioned them at all. I was comparing ideas that were considered in the creative process. I was joking about Blofeld's cat and did mention it would've been a terrible idea. I agree they shouldn't have tried to make Blofeld showing a twist... But it's neither here nor there regarding who Blofeld should be: linking him to Bond is ridiculous, otherwise he's still Ernst Stavro Blofeld, he is still closer to the source material than Ernestina.

    Yes, Blofeld being a woman is so far removed from the source material, but Bond and Blofeld being step brothers somehow isn't. Totally.

    Here's the strawman again: both are a departure from source material however a female Blofeld is MORE. And it makes this change far more difficult to ignore in subsequent movies for obvious reasons.

    You can disagree with my views all you want but please refrain from inventing views out of thin air, this is asinine.

    "Inventing views"? Not at all, it's how I feel. All I said was I'd prefer the other two ideas over a step brother connection, not inventing anything.

    It doesn't make it remotely difficult to change - just recast. Simple. It's not as if the Blofeld they created in SP is the only Blofeld that will feature in the series until the end of time. They'll recast, course correct, take a different approach, etc. Happens all the time.

    Inventing views I do not have. I thought I was clear. You can disagree with me but inventing strawmen is disingenuous.

    And yes sure they can recast. But it's easier to recast a middle aged white character with a middle aged white actor than changing gender!

    You're arguing that I'm inventing a view...that I already had about what I feel would've been a better avenue to take regarding who Blofeld is? I'm not even sure so we'll just agree to disagree on it. Some people love the twist, some people hate it, and some are indifferent. Personally, I thought the whole backstory they had regarding Blofeld and Mr. White sounded wonderfully inventive and unique.

    NO. I'm saying you're building a strawman about my own view on the matter.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @Ludovico, after having seen him again in Ocean's Twelve only a couple of days ago, I couldn't help but think of Blofeld from the OHMSS novel. He has that quality look about him which makes him Bond's dark side of the coin, if you catch my drift. And then, there was Trance where I found his performance terrific. He could work as Blofeld, in my opinion, if he bends his accent to a Polish leaning.

    Question is: can he do a Polish accent in English? Maybe I just think he's just too French. He does have something of OHMSS Blofeld though.

    As a native polish speaker i already get a shiver down my spine just thinking about Cassel (who has the thickest french accent in movie history) trying to Sound polish. If it's Cassel I'd rather they rewrite him as a french man and leave it at that
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It seems to be that however bad the stepbrother idea was, other ideas we avoided were worse: a female Blofeld, an African warlord? And like I suspected Logan appears to be the one behind the stepbrother idea, not Purvis and Wade.

    I'd take either of those over the stepbrother idea, honestly. Doesn't get much worse than that. Did they really think a return of Blofeld after several decades was only going to make an impact if they had a personal, familial connection?

    I wouldn't. At least with the stepbrother you can ignore it in future installments. Not with the other two.

    ????. I happen to see it completely the other way around.

    How so?

    Blofeld is a specific character. Making him Ernestina makes him a completely different character. Giving him completely different cultural and ethnical origins makes him another character. Giving him a different background and a past with Bond is a HUGE mistake don't get me wrong. But the rest is far closer to the original novel Blofeld than Ernestina or an African warlord with an inexplicable Germanic name (and I know Blofeld is Polish, but his name is still Germanic). Bond barely acknowledging the jealousy of his enemy makes it far easier to disregard it altogether in the future.

    But it still exists. If you can simply disregard a stepbrother connection, then you can easily disregard anything else and just recast Blofeld in the future with a new actor or something.

    Of course it still exists but it's easier to be disregarded than turning Blofeld into Ernestina or an improbable African warlord... then disregarding this threw a different casting.

    Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't mind at all if they had cast a female Blofeld. If they were going with a stepbrother idea, surely this wasn't outside the realm of possibilities?

    It's not like they'll carry a lot of this over to a new era, if any of it; I've no doubts when Blofeld returns inevitably with a new actor, the role will be recast with a new spin entirely and no stepbrother angle in sight.

    Nothing is outside the realm of possibilities but some ideas are worse than others and further from Fleming than others. I'll take the lesser evil thank you very much, given the choice. They could have made the angora cat a familiar spirit containing the demon named Blofeld, that possess Oberhauser. That's a possibility and the franchise has dabbled at least one before in the realm of supernatural. But that's a terrible.

    Bottom line: Blofeld is a man.

    So what about Blofeld being Bond's father? Or Bond's son? Still makes him a man, but it's a ridiculous idea. Having ANY connection between Blofeld and Bond is ridiculous to me. Much tougher for me to forgive and look past than a woman Blofeld (wouldn't bother me in the slightest) or something else unique or different.

    A demon-possessed cat is obviously an extreme example, well past anything we saw in LALD.

    They should've eliminated any air of mystery and made it a Blofeld vs. Bond battle right off the bat and market that. No obvious twists you can smell coming years away, no 'Franz Oberhauser,' none of it. Could've been so much better. I feel like they put too much time into setting up a grand mystery of who Waltz was...in a movie called Spectre. Well I wonder!

    You are building a strawman: I never said these would be good ideas or even mentioned them at all. I was comparing ideas that were considered in the creative process. I was joking about Blofeld's cat and did mention it would've been a terrible idea. I agree they shouldn't have tried to make Blofeld showing a twist... But it's neither here nor there regarding who Blofeld should be: linking him to Bond is ridiculous, otherwise he's still Ernst Stavro Blofeld, he is still closer to the source material than Ernestina.

    Yes, Blofeld being a woman is so far removed from the source material, but Bond and Blofeld being step brothers somehow isn't. Totally.

    Here's the strawman again: both are a departure from source material however a female Blofeld is MORE. And it makes this change far more difficult to ignore in subsequent movies for obvious reasons.

    You can disagree with my views all you want but please refrain from inventing views out of thin air, this is asinine.

    "Inventing views"? Not at all, it's how I feel. All I said was I'd prefer the other two ideas over a step brother connection, not inventing anything.

    It doesn't make it remotely difficult to change - just recast. Simple. It's not as if the Blofeld they created in SP is the only Blofeld that will feature in the series until the end of time. They'll recast, course correct, take a different approach, etc. Happens all the time.

    Inventing views I do not have. I thought I was clear. You can disagree with me but inventing strawmen is disingenuous.

    And yes sure they can recast. But it's easier to recast a middle aged white character with a middle aged white actor than changing gender!

    You're arguing that I'm inventing a view...that I already had about what I feel would've been a better avenue to take regarding who Blofeld is? I'm not even sure so we'll just agree to disagree on it. Some people love the twist, some people hate it, and some are indifferent. Personally, I thought the whole backstory they had regarding Blofeld and Mr. White sounded wonderfully inventive and unique.

    NO. I'm saying you're building a strawman about my own view on the matter.

    If that's what you think I'm doing then you've totally misunderstood what I'm saying. I couldn't care less what everyone else likes and doesn't like in this respect, I'm not out to attack someone's opinion and make them feel "wrong" about it. All I originally stated was I thought the other two ideas could've been better pulled off.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    00Agent wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @Ludovico, after having seen him again in Ocean's Twelve only a couple of days ago, I couldn't help but think of Blofeld from the OHMSS novel. He has that quality look about him which makes him Bond's dark side of the coin, if you catch my drift. And then, there was Trance where I found his performance terrific. He could work as Blofeld, in my opinion, if he bends his accent to a Polish leaning.

    Question is: can he do a Polish accent in English? Maybe I just think he's just too French. He does have something of OHMSS Blofeld though.
    As a native polish speaker i already get a shiver down my spine just thinking about Cassel (who has the thickest french accent in movie history) trying to Sound polish. If it's Cassel I'd rather they rewrite him as a french man and leave it at that
    How about a generic European accent? Almost unidentifiable.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    00Agent wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @Ludovico, after having seen him again in Ocean's Twelve only a couple of days ago, I couldn't help but think of Blofeld from the OHMSS novel. He has that quality look about him which makes him Bond's dark side of the coin, if you catch my drift. And then, there was Trance where I found his performance terrific. He could work as Blofeld, in my opinion, if he bends his accent to a Polish leaning.

    Question is: can he do a Polish accent in English? Maybe I just think he's just too French. He does have something of OHMSS Blofeld though.
    As a native polish speaker i already get a shiver down my spine just thinking about Cassel (who has the thickest french accent in movie history) trying to Sound polish. If it's Cassel I'd rather they rewrite him as a french man and leave it at that
    How about a generic European accent? Almost unidentifiable.

    Fine by me
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Fleming wrote a novel in a couple of months. No idea why it takes years to write a film script.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Fleming wrote a novel in a couple of months. No idea why it takes years to write a film script.
    21st century.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2018 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    By making him a white male and then adding on the brother element it's sort of trying to have it both ways.
    Indeed. But, one thing I found awkwardly baffling is that... how did they take that brother angle seriously? It's beyond me, if I'm honest. Something only a ten year old would think of after having seen some superhero film.
    It was rather idiotic.

    I'm including a quote below from Craig in a 2015 Esquire article which I've posted elsewhere before. It seems they thought it was a good idea at the time, because that element never got changed despite other refinements.

    ---
    There has been chatter that Waltz plays Bond's most notorious adversary, Ernst Stavro Blofeld, the comical, cat-stroking, Connery-era menace and boss of the shadowy criminal enterprise Spectre. Actually, Waltz plays Franz Oberhauser. For Fleming fans, that name will ring a distant bell. Franz is the son of Hannes Oberhauser, an Austrian climbing and ski instructor, and friend of Bond's father, who briefly became the young Bond's guardian after the tragic death of his parents – in an Alpine climbing accident, no less. "A wonderful man," Bond describes him in the Fleming story, Octopussy. "He was something of a father to me at a time when I happened to need one." Hannes Oberhauser was later shot dead by the dastardly Major Dexter Smythe; his frozen corpse was discovered in a melting glacier. Bond took it upon himself to track down his former guardian's killer. So, Waltz's Franz Oberhauser is Bond's foster brother. It seems from the trailer he is a senior operative at Spectre – conceivably still under the control of Blofeld – and possibly was connected to Quantum, another nefarious outfit hellbent on world domination (crumbs!), represented here again by Mr White, familiar to fans of Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace.

    In other words, Craig's initial reluctance to let Bond's backstory bleed into Spectre – and to cut back on the angst in favour of, as he puts it to me, "more Moore", invoking the jollity of Roger Moore-era Bond – didn't survive much past the first script meeting. "I think I'd just got it into my head that flamboyance was the way forward and fuck it, nothing touched him. But as we got into the story and rooted out the connections, they were too good to leave alone."

    ---

    https://www.esquire.com/uk/culture/film/news/a8782/daniel-craig-interview/
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Makes you slap your face with your palm.
  • Posts: 15,116
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It seems to be that however bad the stepbrother idea was, other ideas we avoided were worse: a female Blofeld, an African warlord? And like I suspected Logan appears to be the one behind the stepbrother idea, not Purvis and Wade.

    I'd take either of those over the stepbrother idea, honestly. Doesn't get much worse than that. Did they really think a return of Blofeld after several decades was only going to make an impact if they had a personal, familial connection?

    I wouldn't. At least with the stepbrother you can ignore it in future installments. Not with the other two.

    ????. I happen to see it completely the other way around.

    How so?

    Blofeld is a specific character. Making him Ernestina makes him a completely different character. Giving him completely different cultural and ethnical origins makes him another character. Giving him a different background and a past with Bond is a HUGE mistake don't get me wrong. But the rest is far closer to the original novel Blofeld than Ernestina or an African warlord with an inexplicable Germanic name (and I know Blofeld is Polish, but his name is still Germanic). Bond barely acknowledging the jealousy of his enemy makes it far easier to disregard it altogether in the future.

    But it still exists. If you can simply disregard a stepbrother connection, then you can easily disregard anything else and just recast Blofeld in the future with a new actor or something.

    Of course it still exists but it's easier to be disregarded than turning Blofeld into Ernestina or an improbable African warlord... then disregarding this threw a different casting.

    Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't mind at all if they had cast a female Blofeld. If they were going with a stepbrother idea, surely this wasn't outside the realm of possibilities?

    It's not like they'll carry a lot of this over to a new era, if any of it; I've no doubts when Blofeld returns inevitably with a new actor, the role will be recast with a new spin entirely and no stepbrother angle in sight.

    Nothing is outside the realm of possibilities but some ideas are worse than others and further from Fleming than others. I'll take the lesser evil thank you very much, given the choice. They could have made the angora cat a familiar spirit containing the demon named Blofeld, that possess Oberhauser. That's a possibility and the franchise has dabbled at least one before in the realm of supernatural. But that's a terrible.

    Bottom line: Blofeld is a man.

    So what about Blofeld being Bond's father? Or Bond's son? Still makes him a man, but it's a ridiculous idea. Having ANY connection between Blofeld and Bond is ridiculous to me. Much tougher for me to forgive and look past than a woman Blofeld (wouldn't bother me in the slightest) or something else unique or different.

    A demon-possessed cat is obviously an extreme example, well past anything we saw in LALD.

    They should've eliminated any air of mystery and made it a Blofeld vs. Bond battle right off the bat and market that. No obvious twists you can smell coming years away, no 'Franz Oberhauser,' none of it. Could've been so much better. I feel like they put too much time into setting up a grand mystery of who Waltz was...in a movie called Spectre. Well I wonder!

    You are building a strawman: I never said these would be good ideas or even mentioned them at all. I was comparing ideas that were considered in the creative process. I was joking about Blofeld's cat and did mention it would've been a terrible idea. I agree they shouldn't have tried to make Blofeld showing a twist... But it's neither here nor there regarding who Blofeld should be: linking him to Bond is ridiculous, otherwise he's still Ernst Stavro Blofeld, he is still closer to the source material than Ernestina.

    Yes, Blofeld being a woman is so far removed from the source material, but Bond and Blofeld being step brothers somehow isn't. Totally.

    Here's the strawman again: both are a departure from source material however a female Blofeld is MORE. And it makes this change far more difficult to ignore in subsequent movies for obvious reasons.

    You can disagree with my views all you want but please refrain from inventing views out of thin air, this is asinine.

    "Inventing views"? Not at all, it's how I feel. All I said was I'd prefer the other two ideas over a step brother connection, not inventing anything.

    It doesn't make it remotely difficult to change - just recast. Simple. It's not as if the Blofeld they created in SP is the only Blofeld that will feature in the series until the end of time. They'll recast, course correct, take a different approach, etc. Happens all the time.

    Inventing views I do not have. I thought I was clear. You can disagree with me but inventing strawmen is disingenuous.

    And yes sure they can recast. But it's easier to recast a middle aged white character with a middle aged white actor than changing gender!

    You're arguing that I'm inventing a view...that I already had about what I feel would've been a better avenue to take regarding who Blofeld is? I'm not even sure so we'll just agree to disagree on it. Some people love the twist, some people hate it, and some are indifferent. Personally, I thought the whole backstory they had regarding Blofeld and Mr. White sounded wonderfully inventive and unique.

    NO. I'm saying you're building a strawman about my own view on the matter.

    If that's what you think I'm doing then you've totally misunderstood what I'm saying. I couldn't care less what everyone else likes and doesn't like in this respect, I'm not out to attack someone's opinion and make them feel "wrong" about it. All I originally stated was I thought the other two ideas could've been better pulled off.

    Let there be no ambiguity about my views then. I think all three are bad and I can't see how they can be exploited well. I am one of the firm believers that the closest possible to Fleming the better. You take away the stepbrother from SP you still have a middle aged man as Blofeld of similar ethnic and cultural origins who can believably have such a name. It's not good but it's closer to Fleming than a female Blofeld, an African Blofeld, a Mallory Blofeld or a youthful Max Denbigh Blofeld, to name a few hypotheses mentioned on this forum. You can also ignore that particular aspect of SP in subsequent movies more easily.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    edited March 2018 Posts: 5,185
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    By making him a white male and then adding on the brother element it's sort of trying to have it both ways.
    Indeed. But, one thing I found awkwardly baffling is that... how did they take that brother angle seriously? It's beyond me, if I'm honest. Something only a ten year old would think of after having seen some superhero film.
    It was rather idiotic.

    I'm including a quote below from Craig in a 2015 Esquire article which I've posted elsewhere before. It seems they thought it was a good idea at the time, because that element never got changed despite other refinements.

    ---
    There has been chatter that Waltz plays Bond's most notorious adversary, Ernst Stavro Blofeld, the comical, cat-stroking, Connery-era menace and boss of the shadowy criminal enterprise Spectre. Actually, Waltz plays Franz Oberhauser. For Fleming fans, that name will ring a distant bell. Franz is the son of Hannes Oberhauser, an Austrian climbing and ski instructor, and friend of Bond's father, who briefly became the young Bond's guardian after the tragic death of his parents – in an Alpine climbing accident, no less. "A wonderful man," Bond describes him in the Fleming story, Octopussy. "He was something of a father to me at a time when I happened to need one." Hannes Oberhauser was later shot dead by the dastardly Major Dexter Smythe; his frozen corpse was discovered in a melting glacier. Bond took it upon himself to track down his former guardian's killer. So, Waltz's Franz Oberhauser is Bond's foster brother. It seems from the trailer he is a senior operative at Spectre – conceivably still under the control of Blofeld – and possibly was connected to Quantum, another nefarious outfit hellbent on world domination (crumbs!), represented here again by Mr White, familiar to fans of Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace.

    In other words, Craig's initial reluctance to let Bond's backstory bleed into Spectre – and to cut back on the angst in favour of, as he puts it to me, "more Moore", invoking the jollity of Roger Moore-era Bond – didn't survive much past the first script meeting. "I think I'd just got it into my head that flamboyance was the way forward and fuck it, nothing touched him. But as we got into the story and rooted out the connections, they were too good to leave alone."

    ---

    https://www.esquire.com/uk/culture/film/news/a8782/daniel-craig-interview/

    I remember reading that a long time ago.
    My Problem with this is simple, i like Craig, i think he is a smart guy and if he says the stuff they came up with in the writing room was too good to be left out then i am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on that one.

    But its very unfortunate that none of it was included in the movie!

    There is absolutely no meaningful connection between Blofeld and Bond, and zero relevance of it to the Plot, they don't even get a dinner scene ala TMWTGG where they could Talk about each other etc. And how they see each other, it just drifts off into BS whenever they meet.
    I heard there was a chess scene planned between them at some point, and other things, but as i said, the movie does absolutely nothing with their ties.

    i don't know what the hell happened between the writing and the actual shooting, but i am guessing drugs. Lots of drugs
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    So Blofeld is Franz Oberhauser, who is also Major Dexter Smythe, who is Octopussy s father. If Bond is Blofeld s brother, he is also Octopussy s uncle. This is great! Isn t it, @M_Balje ?
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Blofeld should actually be well-planned and thought-out. Eon has yet to deliver the perfect Blofeld. I wish they could cast Vincent Cassel in the role as he awfully looks the part. If only that'd be a reality which only they can grant.

    I agree that it was rushed. Maybe they should have waited for the next Bond actor. Blofeld would have been a good "hook" to start his tenure. I think bringing back Blofeld was a strong wish but they didn't know how to do it when they got the rights.

    That said not sure Cassel would have worked. Too French for the role. If it had been me I'd have someone like Ciaran Hinds or Brendan Gleeson. Large and could easily be thuggish looking.

    Which is ironic, since they got the rights because Logan and Mendes desperately wanted to use Blofeld in first place.
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