The Brosnan era was actually more fun for Bond fans

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  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    It's all down to personal taste.
    I think the Brosnan era, after Goldeneye at least, was a little too concerned with box ticking the tropes we have come to associate with the series.

    Craig's era has probably, at least for me, gone too far the other way in trying to avoid ticking any of the boxes.

    There needs to be a happy medium between the two. This is why I still think Broccoli Jr and Wilson are still a step behind their father when it comes to providing the right direction for Bond.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    edited February 2020 Posts: 3,497
    Roadphill wrote: »
    It's all down to personal taste.
    I think the Brosnan era, after Goldeneye at least, was a little too concerned with box ticking the tropes we have come to associate with the series.

    Craig's era has probably, at least for me, gone too far the other way in trying to avoid ticking any of the boxes.

    There needs to be a happy medium between the two. This is why I still think Broccoli Jr and Wilson are still a step behind their father when it comes to providing the right direction for Bond.

    I'd have loved for NTTD to be a "standalone" or at least for the most part. But okay...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I think that NTTD being purely standalone when the previous films were so interconnected would be too weird for modern audiences that expect continuity in franchises today, and it would make the film come off more as an afterthought, something that doesn’t feel needed if it didn’t have anything to say about the whole era.

    With the next actor they could easily hop back into the standalone format. Love it or hate it, the continuity (messy as it is) is a defining trait of Craig’s run.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    edited February 2020 Posts: 3,497
    I think that NTTD being purely standalone when the previous films were so interconnected would be too weird for modern audiences that expect continuity in franchises today, and it would make the film come off more as an afterthought, something that doesn’t feel needed if it didn’t have anything to say about the whole era.

    With the next actor they could easily hop back into the standalone format. Love it or hate it, the continuity (messy as it is) is a defining trait of Craig’s run.

    Maybe so, but they took it too far with the foster brother thing.

    Or maybe they could've made this the "it's personal again" movie and not Spectre.

    Make no mistake, Craig's era is great for the most part, but just... why did they do that?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Wilson thought it was a great idea along with the other filmmakers. They actually thought fans would LOVE it, but yeah...
  • Daniel316Daniel316 United States
    Posts: 210
    JamesCraig, how is Carver one of the worst villains? He's literally one of the most entertaining, relevant in today's time and is a throwback to villains like Drax who had a lot of power due to owning a company and wanted to start destruction for their own gains but were cowards who hid behind strong henchmen (for Drax it was Chang and Jaws and for Carver it was Stamper). As for Renard he wasn't even the Villain, he was basically someone who was manipulated by Elektra and made into her personal playtoy, Bond even says "You Turned Renard" while on the torture chair. Renard imo is great because he's the jerk villain who literally exists to push Bond's buttons and get under his skin as well as assist in giving Elektra the power she needs because she's the only thing he cares about anymore in his highway road to Death and it's the only thing he feels, it's care for Elektra. Imo it's a really great and deep plotline that gets glossed over. As for Graves, he wasn't meant to menacing, he's meant to be like an Evil James Bond of sorts, even saying he "Modeled the Disgusting Gustav Graves after you" to Bond at one point. Graves is also kinda like Drax, a villain with lots of wealth and power who wants to use it for his own selfish gains and rule the world but unlike Drax, Graves isn't a coward and has no problems throwing down hands (he's a Korean Colonel after all) so he stands on his own 2 legs imo. But yeah like you said it comes down to personal taste, I myself love all 4 Brosnan movies and find each of em to be entertaining even if they have some flaws (GE has no major flaws imo) but if you don't that's fine, different opinions are what make things more interesting anyway.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    edited February 2020 Posts: 3,497
    Daniel316 wrote: »
    JamesCraig, how is Carver one of the worst villains? He's literally one of the most entertaining, relevant in today's time and is a throwback to villains like Drax who had a lot of power due to owning a company and wanted to start destruction for their own gains but were cowards who hid behind strong henchmen (for Drax it was Chang and Jaws and for Carver it was Stamper). As for Renard he wasn't even the Villain, he was basically someone who was manipulated by Elektra and made into her personal playtoy, Bond even says "You Turned Renard" while on the torture chair. Renard imo is great because he's the jerk villain who literally exists to push Bond's buttons and get under his skin as well as assist in giving Elektra the power she needs because she's the only thing he cares about anymore in his highway road to Death and it's the only thing he feels, it's care for Elektra. Imo it's a really great and deep plotline that gets glossed over. As for Graves, he wasn't meant to menacing, he's meant to be like an Evil James Bond of sorts, even saying he "Modeled the Disgusting Gustav Graves after you" to Bond at one point. Graves is also kinda like Drax, a villain with lots of wealth and power who wants to use it for his own selfish gains and rule the world but unlike Drax, Graves isn't a coward and has no problems throwing down hands (he's a Korean Colonel after all) so he stands on his own 2 legs imo. But yeah like you said it comes down to personal taste, I myself love all 4 Brosnan movies and find each of em to be entertaining even if they have some flaws (GE has no major flaws imo) but if you don't that's fine, different opinions are what make things more interesting anyway.

    I hate Carver and Graves, which is nothing more than an opinion.

    Opinions are what we exchange on forums.
  • Daniel316Daniel316 United States
    Posts: 210
    I get that, but have you ever stoped to analyze them? Just asking
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    edited February 2020 Posts: 3,497
    Daniel316 wrote: »
    I get that, but have you ever stoped to analyze them? Just asking

    No.

  • Daniel316Daniel316 United States
    Posts: 210
    Curious but why is that? Also does anyone know if there's a villain ranking thread by any chance?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I’ve analyzed them. They’re still lame. Good ideas behind the Brosnan era, but lousy executions, never living up to their full potential.
  • Daniel316Daniel316 United States
    Posts: 210
    I disagree with that notion but to each their own, personally I think Silva is absolutely lame.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Silva is the richest villain this franchise has had since Alec Trevelyan.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    I like Carver a lot, but Pryce plays him as a cartoon character. There's very little to him beyond his theatrics. TND is still a hugely enjoyable romp, though.

    Strangely enough, I liked Renard at the time, but he was like a lovesick puppy by the end of TWINE, which was unfortunate. But I see Elektra as the true villain of that film, anyway.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    Posts: 3,497
    I like Carver a lot, but Pryce plays him as a cartoon character. There's very little to him beyond his theatrics. TND is still a hugely enjoyable romp, though.

    Strangely enough, I liked Renard at the time, but he was like a lovesick puppy by the end of TWINE, which was unfortunate. But I see Elektra as the true villain of that film, anyway.

    And quite a, shall we say, charming one. ;)
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Daniel316 wrote: »
    Curious but why is that? Also does anyone know if there's a villain ranking thread by any chance?

    There is.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Wilson thought it was a great idea along with the other filmmakers. They actually thought fans would LOVE it, but yeah...

    I far as I know....all Bond purists hated it!!!
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Daniel316 wrote: »
    JamesCraig, how is Carver one of the worst villains? He's literally one of the most entertaining, relevant in today's time and is a throwback to villains like Drax who had a lot of power due to owning a company and wanted to start destruction for their own gains but were cowards who hid behind strong henchmen (for Drax it was Chang and Jaws and for Carver it was Stamper). As for Renard he wasn't even the Villain, he was basically someone who was manipulated by Elektra and made into her personal playtoy, Bond even says "You Turned Renard" while on the torture chair. Renard imo is great because he's the jerk villain who literally exists to push Bond's buttons and get under his skin as well as assist in giving Elektra the power she needs because she's the only thing he cares about anymore in his highway road to Death and it's the only thing he feels, it's care for Elektra. Imo it's a really great and deep plotline that gets glossed over. As for Graves, he wasn't meant to menacing, he's meant to be like an Evil James Bond of sorts, even saying he "Modeled the Disgusting Gustav Graves after you" to Bond at one point. Graves is also kinda like Drax, a villain with lots of wealth and power who wants to use it for his own selfish gains and rule the world but unlike Drax, Graves isn't a coward and has no problems throwing down hands (he's a Korean Colonel after all) so he stands on his own 2 legs imo. But yeah like you said it comes down to personal taste, I myself love all 4 Brosnan movies and find each of em to be entertaining even if they have some flaws (GE has no major flaws imo) but if you don't that's fine, different opinions are what make things more interesting anyway.

    Carver is a totally forgettable wimpy, limp wristed, ‘wet blanket’ of a villain. Tomorrow Never Dies' Elliot Carver was truly a product of his time. He was played by a fantastic actor, yet Jonathan Pryce's villain failed to show any real menace at all in the film. He was a media mogul hellbent on ruling the news world, and it was obvious they loosely based him on Rupert Murdoch. There was also his rather embarrassing Kung-fu display towards the end of the film which is better left forgotten. He is totally unbelievable as Paris Carvers lover....in fact his portrayal seems gay IMO. He’s not as poor as Gustav Graves but he’s up there with the worst in the series.
  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    Posts: 330
    Daniel316 wrote: »
    JamesCraig, how is Carver one of the worst villains? He's literally one of the most entertaining, relevant in today's time and is a throwback to villains like Drax who had a lot of power due to owning a company and wanted to start destruction for their own gains but were cowards who hid behind strong henchmen (for Drax it was Chang and Jaws and for Carver it was Stamper). As for Renard he wasn't even the Villain, he was basically someone who was manipulated by Elektra and made into her personal playtoy, Bond even says "You Turned Renard" while on the torture chair. Renard imo is great because he's the jerk villain who literally exists to push Bond's buttons and get under his skin as well as assist in giving Elektra the power she needs because she's the only thing he cares about anymore in his highway road to Death and it's the only thing he feels, it's care for Elektra. Imo it's a really great and deep plotline that gets glossed over. As for Graves, he wasn't meant to menacing, he's meant to be like an Evil James Bond of sorts, even saying he "Modeled the Disgusting Gustav Graves after you" to Bond at one point. Graves is also kinda like Drax, a villain with lots of wealth and power who wants to use it for his own selfish gains and rule the world but unlike Drax, Graves isn't a coward and has no problems throwing down hands (he's a Korean Colonel after all) so he stands on his own 2 legs imo. But yeah like you said it comes down to personal taste, I myself love all 4 Brosnan movies and find each of em to be entertaining even if they have some flaws (GE has no major flaws imo) but if you don't that's fine, different opinions are what make things more interesting anyway.

    It's always funny to see people group Renard as a main villain; He is the henchman of the movie a la Jaws and Oddjob, the difference being that they do a lot to characterize him and give context to his relationship with the main villain, Elektra King; Which is why it baffles me when people claim he was underdeveloped, he is the most characterized henchman in the series by a wide margin. I'd argue he is the only henchman with any real value as a character in the entire series.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    Posts: 3,497
    Agent_47 wrote: »
    Daniel316 wrote: »
    JamesCraig, how is Carver one of the worst villains? He's literally one of the most entertaining, relevant in today's time and is a throwback to villains like Drax who had a lot of power due to owning a company and wanted to start destruction for their own gains but were cowards who hid behind strong henchmen (for Drax it was Chang and Jaws and for Carver it was Stamper). As for Renard he wasn't even the Villain, he was basically someone who was manipulated by Elektra and made into her personal playtoy, Bond even says "You Turned Renard" while on the torture chair. Renard imo is great because he's the jerk villain who literally exists to push Bond's buttons and get under his skin as well as assist in giving Elektra the power she needs because she's the only thing he cares about anymore in his highway road to Death and it's the only thing he feels, it's care for Elektra. Imo it's a really great and deep plotline that gets glossed over. As for Graves, he wasn't meant to menacing, he's meant to be like an Evil James Bond of sorts, even saying he "Modeled the Disgusting Gustav Graves after you" to Bond at one point. Graves is also kinda like Drax, a villain with lots of wealth and power who wants to use it for his own selfish gains and rule the world but unlike Drax, Graves isn't a coward and has no problems throwing down hands (he's a Korean Colonel after all) so he stands on his own 2 legs imo. But yeah like you said it comes down to personal taste, I myself love all 4 Brosnan movies and find each of em to be entertaining even if they have some flaws (GE has no major flaws imo) but if you don't that's fine, different opinions are what make things more interesting anyway.

    It's always funny to see people group Renard as a main villain; He is the henchman of the movie a la Jaws and Oddjob, the difference being that they do a lot to characterize him and give context to his relationship with the main villain, Elektra King; Which is why it baffles me when people claim he was underdeveloped, he is the most characterized henchman in the series by a wide margin. I'd argue he is the only henchman with any real value as a character in the entire series.

    Absolutely not. What about Red Grant for instance?

    yfzVS0A.gif
  • Daniel316Daniel316 United States
    Posts: 210
    Red Grant is untouchable though, so it's unfair to compare. But Agent 47 is correct in saying that Renard is really developed for a Henchmen and he serves his purpose very well .
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    Posts: 3,497
    Daniel316 wrote: »
    Red Grant is untouchable though, so it's unfair to compare. But Agent 47 is correct in saying that Renard is really developed for a Henchmen and he serves his purpose very well .

    Carlyle is a good actor but the Renard role does not have much depth. He's very forgettable and interchangeable.
  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    Posts: 330
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    Agent_47 wrote: »
    Daniel316 wrote: »
    JamesCraig, how is Carver one of the worst villains? He's literally one of the most entertaining, relevant in today's time and is a throwback to villains like Drax who had a lot of power due to owning a company and wanted to start destruction for their own gains but were cowards who hid behind strong henchmen (for Drax it was Chang and Jaws and for Carver it was Stamper). As for Renard he wasn't even the Villain, he was basically someone who was manipulated by Elektra and made into her personal playtoy, Bond even says "You Turned Renard" while on the torture chair. Renard imo is great because he's the jerk villain who literally exists to push Bond's buttons and get under his skin as well as assist in giving Elektra the power she needs because she's the only thing he cares about anymore in his highway road to Death and it's the only thing he feels, it's care for Elektra. Imo it's a really great and deep plotline that gets glossed over. As for Graves, he wasn't meant to menacing, he's meant to be like an Evil James Bond of sorts, even saying he "Modeled the Disgusting Gustav Graves after you" to Bond at one point. Graves is also kinda like Drax, a villain with lots of wealth and power who wants to use it for his own selfish gains and rule the world but unlike Drax, Graves isn't a coward and has no problems throwing down hands (he's a Korean Colonel after all) so he stands on his own 2 legs imo. But yeah like you said it comes down to personal taste, I myself love all 4 Brosnan movies and find each of em to be entertaining even if they have some flaws (GE has no major flaws imo) but if you don't that's fine, different opinions are what make things more interesting anyway.

    It's always funny to see people group Renard as a main villain; He is the henchman of the movie a la Jaws and Oddjob, the difference being that they do a lot to characterize him and give context to his relationship with the main villain, Elektra King; Which is why it baffles me when people claim he was underdeveloped, he is the most characterized henchman in the series by a wide margin. I'd argue he is the only henchman with any real value as a character in the entire series.

    Absolutely not. What about Red Grant for instance?

    yfzVS0A.gif

    Red Grant, sure. But my point still stands; They do more to characterize Renard and his relationship to the main villain than any henchman in the series, even when compared to Red Grant.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    Posts: 3,497
    Agent_47 wrote: »
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    Agent_47 wrote: »
    Daniel316 wrote: »
    JamesCraig, how is Carver one of the worst villains? He's literally one of the most entertaining, relevant in today's time and is a throwback to villains like Drax who had a lot of power due to owning a company and wanted to start destruction for their own gains but were cowards who hid behind strong henchmen (for Drax it was Chang and Jaws and for Carver it was Stamper). As for Renard he wasn't even the Villain, he was basically someone who was manipulated by Elektra and made into her personal playtoy, Bond even says "You Turned Renard" while on the torture chair. Renard imo is great because he's the jerk villain who literally exists to push Bond's buttons and get under his skin as well as assist in giving Elektra the power she needs because she's the only thing he cares about anymore in his highway road to Death and it's the only thing he feels, it's care for Elektra. Imo it's a really great and deep plotline that gets glossed over. As for Graves, he wasn't meant to menacing, he's meant to be like an Evil James Bond of sorts, even saying he "Modeled the Disgusting Gustav Graves after you" to Bond at one point. Graves is also kinda like Drax, a villain with lots of wealth and power who wants to use it for his own selfish gains and rule the world but unlike Drax, Graves isn't a coward and has no problems throwing down hands (he's a Korean Colonel after all) so he stands on his own 2 legs imo. But yeah like you said it comes down to personal taste, I myself love all 4 Brosnan movies and find each of em to be entertaining even if they have some flaws (GE has no major flaws imo) but if you don't that's fine, different opinions are what make things more interesting anyway.

    It's always funny to see people group Renard as a main villain; He is the henchman of the movie a la Jaws and Oddjob, the difference being that they do a lot to characterize him and give context to his relationship with the main villain, Elektra King; Which is why it baffles me when people claim he was underdeveloped, he is the most characterized henchman in the series by a wide margin. I'd argue he is the only henchman with any real value as a character in the entire series.

    Absolutely not. What about Red Grant for instance?

    yfzVS0A.gif

    Red Grant, sure. But my point still stands; They do more to characterize Renard and his relationship to the main villain than any henchman in the series, even when compared to Red Grant.

    Would you have accepted him as a main villain?
  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    Posts: 330
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    Agent_47 wrote: »
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    Agent_47 wrote: »
    Daniel316 wrote: »
    JamesCraig, how is Carver one of the worst villains? He's literally one of the most entertaining, relevant in today's time and is a throwback to villains like Drax who had a lot of power due to owning a company and wanted to start destruction for their own gains but were cowards who hid behind strong henchmen (for Drax it was Chang and Jaws and for Carver it was Stamper). As for Renard he wasn't even the Villain, he was basically someone who was manipulated by Elektra and made into her personal playtoy, Bond even says "You Turned Renard" while on the torture chair. Renard imo is great because he's the jerk villain who literally exists to push Bond's buttons and get under his skin as well as assist in giving Elektra the power she needs because she's the only thing he cares about anymore in his highway road to Death and it's the only thing he feels, it's care for Elektra. Imo it's a really great and deep plotline that gets glossed over. As for Graves, he wasn't meant to menacing, he's meant to be like an Evil James Bond of sorts, even saying he "Modeled the Disgusting Gustav Graves after you" to Bond at one point. Graves is also kinda like Drax, a villain with lots of wealth and power who wants to use it for his own selfish gains and rule the world but unlike Drax, Graves isn't a coward and has no problems throwing down hands (he's a Korean Colonel after all) so he stands on his own 2 legs imo. But yeah like you said it comes down to personal taste, I myself love all 4 Brosnan movies and find each of em to be entertaining even if they have some flaws (GE has no major flaws imo) but if you don't that's fine, different opinions are what make things more interesting anyway.

    It's always funny to see people group Renard as a main villain; He is the henchman of the movie a la Jaws and Oddjob, the difference being that they do a lot to characterize him and give context to his relationship with the main villain, Elektra King; Which is why it baffles me when people claim he was underdeveloped, he is the most characterized henchman in the series by a wide margin. I'd argue he is the only henchman with any real value as a character in the entire series.

    Absolutely not. What about Red Grant for instance?

    yfzVS0A.gif

    Red Grant, sure. But my point still stands; They do more to characterize Renard and his relationship to the main villain than any henchman in the series, even when compared to Red Grant.

    Would you have accepted him as a main villain?

    I think you're meant to up until the reveal during the torture sequence.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    Posts: 3,497
    Agent_47 wrote: »
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    Agent_47 wrote: »
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    Agent_47 wrote: »
    Daniel316 wrote: »
    JamesCraig, how is Carver one of the worst villains? He's literally one of the most entertaining, relevant in today's time and is a throwback to villains like Drax who had a lot of power due to owning a company and wanted to start destruction for their own gains but were cowards who hid behind strong henchmen (for Drax it was Chang and Jaws and for Carver it was Stamper). As for Renard he wasn't even the Villain, he was basically someone who was manipulated by Elektra and made into her personal playtoy, Bond even says "You Turned Renard" while on the torture chair. Renard imo is great because he's the jerk villain who literally exists to push Bond's buttons and get under his skin as well as assist in giving Elektra the power she needs because she's the only thing he cares about anymore in his highway road to Death and it's the only thing he feels, it's care for Elektra. Imo it's a really great and deep plotline that gets glossed over. As for Graves, he wasn't meant to menacing, he's meant to be like an Evil James Bond of sorts, even saying he "Modeled the Disgusting Gustav Graves after you" to Bond at one point. Graves is also kinda like Drax, a villain with lots of wealth and power who wants to use it for his own selfish gains and rule the world but unlike Drax, Graves isn't a coward and has no problems throwing down hands (he's a Korean Colonel after all) so he stands on his own 2 legs imo. But yeah like you said it comes down to personal taste, I myself love all 4 Brosnan movies and find each of em to be entertaining even if they have some flaws (GE has no major flaws imo) but if you don't that's fine, different opinions are what make things more interesting anyway.

    It's always funny to see people group Renard as a main villain; He is the henchman of the movie a la Jaws and Oddjob, the difference being that they do a lot to characterize him and give context to his relationship with the main villain, Elektra King; Which is why it baffles me when people claim he was underdeveloped, he is the most characterized henchman in the series by a wide margin. I'd argue he is the only henchman with any real value as a character in the entire series.

    Absolutely not. What about Red Grant for instance?

    yfzVS0A.gif

    Red Grant, sure. But my point still stands; They do more to characterize Renard and his relationship to the main villain than any henchman in the series, even when compared to Red Grant.

    Would you have accepted him as a main villain?

    I think you're meant to up until the reveal during the torture sequence.

    No, I meant would you have accepted him as such without Elektra?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I like Carver a lot, but Pryce plays him as a cartoon character. There's very little to him beyond his theatrics. TND is still a hugely enjoyable romp, though.

    Strangely enough, I liked Renard at the time, but he was like a lovesick puppy by the end of TWINE, which was unfortunate. But I see Elektra as the true villain of that film, anyway.

    That’s because Elektra is the true villain (doubling as the female lead) and Renard is the loyal henchman.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    I like Carver a lot, but Pryce plays him as a cartoon character. There's very little to him beyond his theatrics. TND is still a hugely enjoyable romp, though.

    Strangely enough, I liked Renard at the time, but he was like a lovesick puppy by the end of TWINE, which was unfortunate. But I see Elektra as the true villain of that film, anyway.

    That’s because Elektra is the true villain (doubling as the female lead) and Renard is the loyal henchman.

    I know, but many others don't see it that way.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    They’re only seeing the old pre-release marketing!
  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    Posts: 330
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    Agent_47 wrote: »
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    Agent_47 wrote: »
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    Agent_47 wrote: »
    Daniel316 wrote: »
    JamesCraig, how is Carver one of the worst villains? He's literally one of the most entertaining, relevant in today's time and is a throwback to villains like Drax who had a lot of power due to owning a company and wanted to start destruction for their own gains but were cowards who hid behind strong henchmen (for Drax it was Chang and Jaws and for Carver it was Stamper). As for Renard he wasn't even the Villain, he was basically someone who was manipulated by Elektra and made into her personal playtoy, Bond even says "You Turned Renard" while on the torture chair. Renard imo is great because he's the jerk villain who literally exists to push Bond's buttons and get under his skin as well as assist in giving Elektra the power she needs because she's the only thing he cares about anymore in his highway road to Death and it's the only thing he feels, it's care for Elektra. Imo it's a really great and deep plotline that gets glossed over. As for Graves, he wasn't meant to menacing, he's meant to be like an Evil James Bond of sorts, even saying he "Modeled the Disgusting Gustav Graves after you" to Bond at one point. Graves is also kinda like Drax, a villain with lots of wealth and power who wants to use it for his own selfish gains and rule the world but unlike Drax, Graves isn't a coward and has no problems throwing down hands (he's a Korean Colonel after all) so he stands on his own 2 legs imo. But yeah like you said it comes down to personal taste, I myself love all 4 Brosnan movies and find each of em to be entertaining even if they have some flaws (GE has no major flaws imo) but if you don't that's fine, different opinions are what make things more interesting anyway.

    It's always funny to see people group Renard as a main villain; He is the henchman of the movie a la Jaws and Oddjob, the difference being that they do a lot to characterize him and give context to his relationship with the main villain, Elektra King; Which is why it baffles me when people claim he was underdeveloped, he is the most characterized henchman in the series by a wide margin. I'd argue he is the only henchman with any real value as a character in the entire series.

    Absolutely not. What about Red Grant for instance?

    yfzVS0A.gif

    Red Grant, sure. But my point still stands; They do more to characterize Renard and his relationship to the main villain than any henchman in the series, even when compared to Red Grant.

    Would you have accepted him as a main villain?

    I think you're meant to up until the reveal during the torture sequence.

    No, I meant would you have accepted him as such without Elektra?

    Sure; But given his entire plan is dependent on Elektra King, her organization and her ties to MI6, it would change the script quite a bit to remove her from the equation. So much of his character is built around her manipulation; So while I do think he could work as a main villain, it wouldn't work within the script as it is.
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