NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Critical Reaction and Box Office Performance

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Comments

  • Posts: 1,092
    Ryan wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    Ryan wrote: »
    I don't think it's a quality versus quality thing, nor do numbers necessarily indicate quality. Fast 9 is, quite objectively, pretty bad, but it ticks the appropriate boxes for popcorn fare and casual enjoyment.

    On top of that, superhero films outdoing Bond is nothing new. I don't think it's reflective of anything about the film if it doesn't reach Skyfall levels of success.
    I do get where you're coming from, but are you implying that Bond is no longer seen as popcorn fare and casual enjoyment for American audiences? I mean, I've watched quite a few of the recent Fast 9 movies at the cinema and they are dumb entertainment, but they're still very entertaining and tend to end on a superficial high.

    Not at all. I think it's just a different animal these days. Bond this time around is nearly a three hour, story heavy experience with a tragic ending versus a couple of hours of light entertainment.

    I just meant that it slightly underperforming at the North American box office isn't necessarily indicative of its quality. Bond is clearly not as popular with American audiences as the superhero craze is, and that's perfectly okay.

    Yep on all points here. It's also been 6 years since the last Bond picture, whereas Marvel churns out film after film; audiences expect and want this. EON has failed to understand this basic concept and Bond will wind up being forgotten unless they go back to its escapist roots.
  • Posts: 1,092
    bondywondy wrote: »
    If killing off Bond was a factor in the lower US box office then Eon and Daniel Craig have to take some of the blame. There was a week of spoilers online before the US release!

    Killing off Bond was a moronic decision. Barbara and MG should have said "no" to Craig. Instead we got a dead Bond that may or may not be alive in three or more years time. The continuity is messed up. Oh well. Just seemed an own goal by Eon. 😏

    Remember when the death of Ironman deferred the domestic box office of Endgame? Oh wait.

    Remember when the Bond franchise had goodwill and a fresh, energetic BO direction? Oh, wait, that was like10 years ago; a lifetime in Hollywood.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited October 2021 Posts: 12,480
    I'm American. I hope it does fine in the U.S. But my MAIN hope is that overall, total global sales are excellent. The next film WILL be made; that is guaranteed. EON (and also Cary) already have some ideas of what they would like to do (Cary not signed on; yes, I know that).

    So if, once again, America lags far behind the rest of the world, I find it hard to care. I don't want EON to lose money, of course. But emotionally, if the U.S. misses out on it, I find it hard to get handwringing and upset. Of course the ending is known now, and that will affect some sales, but others will go because they are really curious anyway. It probably does not even out, but I am finding it difficult to feel things are truly dire for Bond, for this film, for EON.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 727
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    bondywondy wrote: »
    If killing off Bond was a factor in the lower US box office then Eon and Daniel Craig have to take some of the blame. There was a week of spoilers online before the US release!

    Killing off Bond was a moronic decision. Barbara and MG should have said "no" to Craig. Instead we got a dead Bond that may or may not be alive in three or more years time. The continuity is messed up. Oh well. Just seemed an own goal by Eon. 😏

    Remember when the death of Ironman deferred the domestic box office of Endgame? Oh wait.

    Remember when the Bond franchise had goodwill and a fresh, energetic BO direction? Oh, wait, that was like10 years ago; a lifetime in Hollywood.

    At least I had a cogent if sarcastic response. The point is, the death of Bond is highly unlikely to be a factor.
  • Americans nowadays don’t watch anything unless there is a prominent black woman in it.
    What a ridiculous comment.
  • Posts: 526
    bondsum wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    Opening after Venom hurt it at the US BO. Initial numbers don't look great but not terrible. Venom is not a good movie but is at least entertaining and trim at only 90 minutes. NTTD is way too long to make steady money, as theaters will start taking away showings as time goes along without big numbers to justify its place in line.

    With the competition coming up I doubt it will reach much more than 120 domestically. Will it hit 500 elsewhere? Maybe. A grand total of around 600 seems possible but not not likely.
    I'm not sure Venom hurt NTTD's opening weekend. It's certainly shown that people are willing to go back into the cinema again even if the movie isn't that good, so the pandemic can't really be used as an excuse for the movie coming in at the low end of expectations. I think it's the Hollywood Reporter that says the US audience is mostly fueled by older adults, so it's not like those who fear Covid are staying away.
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    It’s insanely overlong for a Bond film.
    The long runtime and Bond's 8-X probably has more to do with why NTTD is not meeting industry expectations.
    bondsum wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    Opening after Venom hurt it at the US BO. Initial numbers don't look great but not terrible. Venom is not a good movie but is at least entertaining and trim at only 90 minutes. NTTD is way too long to make steady money, as theaters will start taking away showings as time goes along without big numbers to justify its place in line.

    With the competition coming up I doubt it will reach much more than 120 domestically. Will it hit 500 elsewhere? Maybe. A grand total of around 600 seems possible but not not likely.
    I'm not sure Venom hurt NTTD's opening weekend. It's certainly shown that people are willing to go back into the cinema again even if the movie isn't that good, so the pandemic can't really be used as an excuse for the movie coming in at the low end of expectations. I think it's the Hollywood Reporter that says the US audience is mostly fueled by older adults, so it's not like those who fear Covid are staying away.
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    It’s insanely overlong for a Bond film.
    The long runtime and Bond's 8-X probably has more to do with why NTTD is not meeting industry expectations.
    bondsum wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    Opening after Venom hurt it at the US BO. Initial numbers don't look great but not terrible. Venom is not a good movie but is at least entertaining and trim at only 90 minutes. NTTD is way too long to make steady money, as theaters will start taking away showings as time goes along without big numbers to justify its place in line.

    With the competition coming up I doubt it will reach much more than 120 domestically. Will it hit 500 elsewhere? Maybe. A grand total of around 600 seems possible but not not likely.
    I'm not sure Venom hurt NTTD's opening weekend. It's certainly shown that people are willing to go back into the cinema again even if the movie isn't that good, so the pandemic can't really be used as an excuse for the movie coming in at the low end of expectations. I think it's the Hollywood Reporter that says the US audience is mostly fueled by older adults, so it's not like those who fear Covid are staying away.
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    It’s insanely overlong for a Bond film.
    The long runtime and Bond's 8-X probably has more to do with why NTTD is not meeting industry expectations.
    Plus the pandemic is still a fairly big issue. Not as bad as it was, but still, it is deterring folks (especially the 50 and up viewers). It will probably make $115 to $120 million.
  • I know Grace has a lot of haters for several reasons but the focus here is the interesting analysis she gives.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    I’m sure I’ve read a similar analysis elsewhere.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited October 2021 Posts: 4,343
    At this point I just hope NTTD will beat DAD’s gross adjusted for 2021 inflation. Brozza’s last outing made $656.837 million adjusted.

    Just for the record, those are Craig’s grosses adjusted:
    SF: $1,323,220 (#1)
    SP: $1,015,127 (#4)
    CR: $822,328 (#8)
    QoS: $751,812 (#11)

    So NTTD will likely fall between spot #11 (best case scenario, besting QoS) and #14 (worst case scenario, doing less than DAD).
  • Posts: 2,491
    Damn, I think this forum is trying too hard to come to the conclusion on why the movie seems to be flopping (too early for anything) in US,

    It's not that tough, really. Especially when we are talking about the longest franchise in history that is well loved.

    SKYFALL did great. Why? It was a great movie.
    Quantum of Solace flopped. Why? It was a bad movie.

    People here are so "brainwashed" by politics that everything needs to be overanalyzed and politicized - "See, people are tired of Bond! We need Halle Berry as Bond for something new!", "Noo, Americans are tired! We need Bond in America to make money from them!", "Nooo, young people don't care about Bond, we need a Bond that will catch a tik-tok teen and will be played by Jake Paul!"

    This is how movie studios think, don't fall in the same trap that they are falling. Overanalyizing and trying all sorts of stupid things.

    "Hm...this movie did not do as great females between 18 and 22? Could this just be a number? No! We must overanalyize this and we must have more beauty products and cameo from a K-Pop band! Yes! Cause people are stereotypes and they want stereotypical things! Good movie? Nah, we need to specifically do enough things to boost this number with these people!"

    Why did Skyfall do great? Why did SPECTRE not do great? It's not cause "Hmm...SPECTRE flopped so I guess.... I guess the people are tired of Cristoph Waltz....yeah, we must change Blofeld with someone that's not Austrian... you see, I guess that WorldWar2 made people not interested with middle-aged Austrian men..."

    It's simple. It was not a good movie.

    The job should be to see how to make the best movie that will be faithful to the character and the franchise (and in the case of Bond - to Fleming and his works), and not how you can make the best movie for a certain group of people.

    Let's not forget that DAD also tried the "let's make something modern, try to set up a spin-off, and do as many things that you can present as "progressive" while abandoning the character's good traits and totally abandoning the story" and it was met the same faith.

    It's not that DAD floopped cause _____ (any one reason). It was a mix of reasons that made it a bad Bond movie.

    The smart choice would've been to never try things like that again. But they did.

    So, naturally the next movie was the furthest thing away from DAD. A book adaptation with an old-timey feel.

    And would you look at that, going to the roots worked!

    Then, QoS happened. A movie which was a sequel and had lots of problems in it's production. And...it failed.

    So, they forgot all about the Quantum organization and started a new story. Bond vs Silva. Skyfall. Bond girls. M.

    It did great on the box office cause it was a great movie.


    But, the studios did the same mistake they always do. They overanalyze things and come to the wrong conclussion.

    They saw that M had a big part of it. They saw that Q and the rest had a big part of it. And they were like 'YEAH! This must be the reason why SF was great!" (it wasn't. Having "Bond+Friends Go On A Mission" was a bad move)

    So, they said "People liked SF which had Bond having an emotional moment....so let's pump that up!!! More lore! More family! More emotion! More backstory! Yeah!"


    And that flopped critically.

    So....unlike the thing with DAD, where it bastardized the character/franchise and they started anew with an old school story... they made the biggest mistake possible - a continuation of SPECTRE.

    And it also had production problems just like QoS.

    It's baffling that they decided to make SPECTRE 2 (in a a way), while also kinda being a QoS 2 (kinda...)

    I really hope they don't overanalyze this and see "Hmmm...NTTD had good action and good cinematography...........and it flopped....hmm...THIS MUST MEAN THAT THE NEXT MOVIE SHOULD HAVE 0 ACTION AND NO CINEMATOGRAPHY! WE'D FILM IT WITH AN IPHONE!"

    Cause it's easy to get lost in "what's the reason" when you are paid billions to analyze things and the people paying you are not happy with "Sir? The movie wasn't that great." as an answer they need polls and piecharts so you can tell them why "Black males aged 35-37 watched NTTD 0.3% less compared to SPECTRE" so you come up with all sorts of stupid reasons to justify your salary to the boss so he can be like "YEAH! CAUSE THERE WAS NO SHAVING SCENE! THAT'S RIGHT! NEXT MOVIE? 10 SHAVING SCENES! SKYFALL HAD ONE AND IT WAS GREAT! IMAGINE WHAT 10 SHAVING SCENES WOULD DO!"

    BUT

    It's a pandemic. The expectations were not realistic in this forum. If the studio expected 900m worldwide... they are insane. If their first line of thinking is "Why did this movie not do 900m?" then this whole thing is pointless.

    The movie did not "flop".

    It will probably do "ok"

    You gotta see the pandemic numbers. And for pandemic numbers...it's ok.

    If they approach the numbers as "omg this is terrible" that's wrong. It's pandemic. Plague.

    You can't expect normal numbers.

    They must see the main reasons why the movie did not do that great, instead of pushing the panic button as "OMG IS BOND FINISHED?"

    I hope the studio will use their time intelligently to see what needs to be done.


    They did great after DAD and QoS flopped.

    They did not do great after SP, cause SP did not fail financially... it only did critically. A fact that studios almost always forget as long as the movie makes money (Venom 2...for example. Same type of movie as the first one... and the first one was not great...but it made money, so who cares)
  • Posts: 625
    bondywondy wrote: »
    If killing off Bond was a factor in the lower US box office then Eon and Daniel Craig have to take some of the blame. There was a week of spoilers online before the US release!

    It is not a factor.
    Everywhere in the world the movie has really good holds on its second weekend. So even if people read about spoiler, that didn't stop them from going to the movies.

    The only factor is: we are still in a pandemic. Without it the movie might have started with an 80 mio weekend.
  • NTTD is a great film imo. Intelligent and full of heart. Give me that any day over fast and furious fast food rubbish.
  • manovermanover uk
    Posts: 170
    For those stateside...how does the boxoffice generally do during columbus day?
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 3,333
    Plus the pandemic is still a fairly big issue. Not as bad as it was, but still, it is deterring folks (especially the 50 and up viewers). It will probably make $115 to $120 million.
    It would appear that in North America the Bond audience is skewed quite heavily toward an older demographic and is more reliant on them to make up the ticket shortfalls. I'm sure there is a proportion of that older demographic that is still scared witless of the virus in the US, but it sort of demonstates why Bond needs to reach out more to a younger and more resilient demographic if it wants to gain a larger footing there.

    However, I don't believe NTTD would have made $115 to $120 million in its US opening weekend had it not been for the pandemic. The Hollywood analysists had already factored in the pandemic when they made their forecast of a $75 million opening, though they might not have considered Fukunaga's comments about this not being a "rapey Connery Bond" or the early spoilers coming out of the UK. I did point out in a much earlier post (before the movie was released) that it was an act of folly for a movie to rely so heavily on non-spoilers or a twist ending when there's a thing called the MSM and social media to let the cat out of the bag.

    I also agree with @The_Reaper when he says the long delays between each movie would've dampened the enthusiasm in the US market for the next installment, and they need to get back to churning them out much faster. Like it or not, the quick turnaround of both the Harry and Cubby era was also part of the model that Disney adopted for their own franchises. As did MI and F&F. It's also about momentum.

    PS. If Grace is right in her prediction (and I think she might well be) then Prince Charles will be happy with Craig's replacement in Josh O’Connor.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    I think another critical element that contributed to the lack of a younger demographic is the fact that Bond in video games has been non-existent for nearly a decade. Combine that with the Craig films being more mature and it’s no surprise the demographics favor older audiences.

    I have to admit, I became a fan through the video games. Because I played GOLDENEYE 64 so much it made me want to actually delve into the Bond series. Today there’s no such equivalent. There’s currently a game in development that will mark the first installment in a decade. Perhaps that along with the casting of a new actor will usher in a new era for Bond and its target audience.
  • RyanRyan Canada
    Posts: 692
    I'm not sure that EON is going to be hung up too much on whether or not this film truly appealed to a young audience. Internationally it is doing just fine, and they got their rave reviews from critics by telling the story they wanted to tell. A bit premature to consider this some sort of colossal failure.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 526
    @bondsum You have any inside info on O’Connor being the next Bond? It never occurred to me, but wow, he would be great! Don’t mean to change the thread, just very curious.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    Those $100 million predictions were insane and ridiculous but let’s not forget that more realistic predictions for NTTD pointed towards a $55/$75 opening. It made $56 million so that’s still kinda disappointing. Let’s see how much money it will make today on Columbus Day but the fact that Venom 2 made more money on its first 4 days than Bond will make in two weeks is just sad and honestly a little bit surprising.
  • Posts: 2,491
    Another interesting thing...

    Venom 2 fell down 64.5% on the box office in its second week!

    WOW

    Alright, now I am taking back my predictions for next week, if this is the new norm.

    For reference, if NTTD goes down 64.5% next week it will make 19.88m

    Also, something fun.

    According to the box office numbers NTTD made....

    $56,007,372

    56 point..........DOUBLE OH SEVEN! Ha!!! :D :D
  • Did I miss it or am I right in thinking MGW didn't appear with his usual cameo?
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    You can see him at the SPECTRE party.
  • Posts: 3,333
    Ryan wrote: »
    I'm not sure that EON is going to be hung up too much on whether or not this film truly appealed to a young audience. Internationally it is doing just fine, and they got their rave reviews from critics by telling the story they wanted to tell. A bit premature to consider this some sort of colossal failure.
    I'm beginning to feel you don't quite understand why Hollywood makes movies. They don't make them principally for critical acclaim, they make them in order to make money. Falling short of box office expectations isn't a colossal failure, it's simply a tad underwhelming. Nevertheless, the studio could still find huge success for NTTD in America on its streaming service. It ain't over yet.
    @bondsum You have any inside info on O’Connor being the next Bond? It never occurred to me, but wow, he would be great! Don’t mean to change the thread, just very curious.
    No, I don't have any inside knowledge on the exact name of the next actor, but I do have an idea who it won't be. Josh O'Connor isn't my own personal choice for Bond 26, but he is someone I can see them going with in their new reboot. Maybe it's Grace Randolph that has the real inside info? ;)
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited October 2021 Posts: 4,343
    I think it’s too early to have real inside info.
  • South Korea 2nd week drop 44%. Not bad if carried over to other markets.
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 575
    Too early, yes, but I've no doubt they've had their eyes open and even spoken to people since Spectre came out.
  • RyanRyan Canada
    Posts: 692
    bondsum wrote: »
    Ryan wrote: »
    I'm not sure that EON is going to be hung up too much on whether or not this film truly appealed to a young audience. Internationally it is doing just fine, and they got their rave reviews from critics by telling the story they wanted to tell. A bit premature to consider this some sort of colossal failure.
    I'm beginning to feel you don't quite understand why Hollywood makes movies. They don't make them principally for critical acclaim, they make them in order to make money. Falling short of box office expectations isn't a colossal failure, it's simply a tad underwhelming. Nevertheless, the studio could still find huge success for NTTD in America on its streaming service.

    No need to patronize. I was referring to the doom and gloom of some users. Underwhelming? Certainly. But far too early to get hung up on a singular notion when the film is - so far - undoubtedly a success for EON worldwide. And like you said, it's not over yet.

    Personally, I'm just not someone who gets too hung up on numbers as they don't affect my view on a film or not, but I'm not stupid. Yes, films are made to make money. However, EON has clearly been making the films they want to make over the Craig years and I highly doubt a slightly underwhelming opening weekend is going to cause some serious change of course for the series going forward. I could be wrong, but again, far too early to tell.

    Die Another Day was far from a box office failure as far as Bond at the box office was concerned in 2002, and yet they changed direction anyways. Seemed to be a decision fueled by creativity, with a gamble on a new Bond, and the bonus was that it ended up paying off.
  • EinoRistoSiniahoEinoRistoSiniaho Oulu, Finland
    edited October 2021 Posts: 73
    Jan1985 wrote: »
    Bond has always been more popular outside North America anyway so it doesn't surprise me.

    That's how it is and always was.

    Here in Germany Bond is bigger than Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Marvel, DC, Mission Impossible,
    Fast & Furious etc.
    Bond is THE movie experience.
    I'd say the same applies to Finland as well. The audience I saw NTTD had age range from 12 to nearly 80. And it has been said that Bond (Moore films and Connery reissues) and Spede (a Finnish comedy giant) kept dozens and dozens of small rural cinemas alive during the 70's and 80's.
  • Posts: 3,333
    00Heaven wrote: »
    Too early, yes, but I've no doubt they've had their eyes open and even spoken to people since Spectre came out.
    Absolutely. Tinseltown is a small place and insider leaks do get circulated about. The producers are smart enough not to allow the topic of Craig's last Bond outting and his inevitable replacement become the key talking point of the movie, which is why there was so much circling of the wagons around Craig and a refusal to discuss any future actor for the role.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 3,333
    Ryan wrote: »
    No need to patronize. I was referring to the doom and gloom of some users. Underwhelming? Certainly. But far too early to get hung up on a singular notion when the film is - so far - undoubtedly a success for EON worldwide. And like you said, it's not over yet.

    Personally, I'm just not someone who gets too hung up on numbers as they don't affect my view on a film or not, but I'm not stupid. Yes, films are made to make money. However, EON has clearly been making the films they want to make over the Craig years and I highly doubt a slightly underwhelming opening weekend is going to cause some serious change of course for the series going forward. I could be wrong, but again, far too early to tell.

    Die Another Day was far from a box office failure as far as Bond at the box office was concerned in 2002, and yet they changed direction anyways. Seemed to be a decision fueled by creativity, with a gamble on a new Bond, and the bonus was that it ended up paying off.
    Sorry if you felt I was patronizing you, but I did take your critical accolades remark as rather patronizing in itself and somewhat of a cop out. I also understand that some here don't get hung-up on box office numbers and won't allow them to affect their overall enjoyment of a movie. It's good that you have shown that you do understand why movies are made, and that they're not just made for award season and column inches. Personally, I believe everyone is entitled to post as many negative and positives comments as they like because its now fair game. That said, the numbers are important and they do have a major impact on where Bond goes in future, like it or not.

    The change in direction after DAD wasn't really down to the producers as they were ready to go with a Jinx spin-off directed by Stephen Frears that told the orgin story of Giacinta "Jinx" Johnson. Casino Royale came about due to MGM putting the kybosh on the Jinx production and MGM doing a deal with Sony to acquire the rights to CR, for which the producers were the main beneficiary.
  • RyanRyan Canada
    Posts: 692
    bondsum wrote: »
    Ryan wrote: »
    No need to patronize. I was referring to the doom and gloom of some users. Underwhelming? Certainly. But far too early to get hung up on a singular notion when the film is - so far - undoubtedly a success for EON worldwide. And like you said, it's not over yet.

    Personally, I'm just not someone who gets too hung up on numbers as they don't affect my view on a film or not, but I'm not stupid. Yes, films are made to make money. However, EON has clearly been making the films they want to make over the Craig years and I highly doubt a slightly underwhelming opening weekend is going to cause some serious change of course for the series going forward. I could be wrong, but again, far too early to tell.

    Die Another Day was far from a box office failure as far as Bond at the box office was concerned in 2002, and yet they changed direction anyways. Seemed to be a decision fueled by creativity, with a gamble on a new Bond, and the bonus was that it ended up paying off.
    Sorry if you felt I was patronizing you, but I did take your critical accolades remark as rather patronizing in itself and somewhat of a cop out. I also understand that some here don't get hung-up on box office numbers and won't allow them to affect their overall enjoyment of a movie. It's good that you have shown that you do understand why movies are made, and that they're not just made for award season and column inches. Personally, I believe everyone is entitled to post as many negative and positives comments as they like because its now fair game. That said, the numbers are important and they do have a major impact on where Bond goes in future, like it or not.

    I never said anything about making it just for the accolade, but rather that they still got rave reviews by making the story they wanted to tell. I don't see how that is patronizing or a cop out as it was not intended to be an excuse, but rather, an outlook. As much as SPECTRE was a mixed bag among fans and less impressive than its predecessor at the box office it would seem that EON were not deterred at all from finishing that story. While they obviously want the film to make money, they didn't necessarily make the most obvious film to do so by going in this direction. At the very least, that's how I see it - truth or not.

    Further to that- as if I don't know that people can share their positive or negative opinions as much as they want to. It only seemed to be trouble when I shared mine. I simply offered my own two cents which I stand by and you even agreed with - it's too early to really make the final call.

    But to insinuate that I must just "not understand" even though you yourself said we're all entitled to post what we want? That might be different had I pretended to be an expert on box office, but I didn't. I think at this point we run the risk of arguing over semantics when we didn't in fact entirely disagree with one another.
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