"I don t drink...wine."- The Dracula Thread

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  • Posts: 16,167
    I've never had the desire to sit thru the recent BBC DRACULA again. I don't mind some tinkering with the story, as with the 1958 Hammer version, or the Langella film, but this one didn't hold my interest.
  • Posts: 15,123
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I've never had the desire to sit thru the recent BBC DRACULA again. I don't mind some tinkering with the story, as with the 1958 Hammer version, or the Langella film, but this one didn't hold my interest.

    Hammer tinkered with the story for budget reasons: they didn't have the means for a faithful adaptation. Christopher Lee desperately wanted to play the role in a faithful adaptation.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I've never had the desire to sit thru the recent BBC DRACULA again. I don't mind some tinkering with the story, as with the 1958 Hammer version, or the Langella film, but this one didn't hold my interest.

    I haven't seen the series yet, but that is, in more general terms, my beef with many TV (mini) series. Writers often throw stuff in to stretch the length and number of episodes, usually to the detriment of the show. I don't mind a little "re-imagining" of a book, or even a broad expansion of it if you have the material for it, but I have seen too many series spin out of control with subplots that go nowhere, or a pacing that hits zero. After one or two episodes, I cannot go on anymore. That’s why I am a film guy first and foremost. Films paint on a different canvas, and scripts are forced to deliver something that fits it. TV series have the option of leaving things unresolved, for “next time” or “futures seasons”. Very few of them actually pull it off.

    Dracula can be expanded on, no doubt. But from the sound of it, Gatiss and Mofatt didn't deliver, despite the show's rather high approval ratings.
  • Posts: 15,123
    The problem is not that they made a miniseries, it's that they thought they'd be more clever than the source material. Which is something they did with Sherlock too.
  • Posts: 1,860
    RENFIELD is just around the corner.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    I'm waiting for The Last Voyage of the Demeter. Still can't believe that no one thought of doing that until now!
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,007
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I've never had the desire to sit thru the recent BBC DRACULA again. I don't mind some tinkering with the story, as with the 1958 Hammer version, or the Langella film, but this one didn't hold my interest.

    I haven't seen the series yet, but that is, in more general terms, my beef with many TV (mini) series. Writers often throw stuff in to stretch the length and number of episodes, usually to the detriment of the show. I don't mind a little "re-imagining" of a book, or even a broad expansion of it if you have the material for it, but I have seen too many series spin out of control with subplots that go nowhere, or a pacing that hits zero. After one or two episodes, I cannot go on anymore. That’s why I am a film guy first and foremost. Films paint on a different canvas, and scripts are forced to deliver something that fits it. TV series have the option of leaving things unresolved, for “next time” or “futures seasons”. Very few of them actually pull it off.

    Dracula can be expanded on, no doubt. But from the sound of it, Gatiss and Mofatt didn't deliver, despite the show's rather high approval ratings.

    I loved the series. It went to some surprising places and provides some really clever updates and twists on the Dracula lore.

    Claus Bang is simply sensational as the count. It also has a splendid David Arnold score.

    I had my third viewing a few weeks ago.

    Do yourself a favour, @DarthDimi 😁
  • Posts: 15,123
    Venutius wrote: »
    I'm waiting for The Last Voyage of the Demeter. Still can't believe that no one thought of doing that until now!

    Sounds interesting, but I'd rather have a proper, faithful adaptation of the novel. Which has never been done.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited March 2023 Posts: 3,152
    Indeed, not. I agree, that'd definitely be the ideal, but it doesn't seem to be anywhere on the horizon - all we get are 'reimaginings' that are far poorer than a faithful adaptation of the book would be. I'd rather not have any more of those at all. Something like Voyage of the Demeter interests me far more than any amount of Gatiss travesties. Of course, that's not to say that ...The Demeter might itself not be a travesty! ;)
  • Posts: 15,123
    Venutius wrote: »
    Indeed, not. I agree, that'd definitely be the ideal, but it doesn't seem to be anywhere on the horizon - all we get are 'reimaginings' that are far poorer than a faithful adaptation of the book would be. I'd rather not have any more of those at all. Something like Voyage of the Demeter interests me far more than any amount of Gatiss travesties. Of course, that's not to say that ...The Demeter might itself not be a travesty! ;)

    I hope it's not. If nothing else, if it does work, it would be nice to have a proper treatment of a section of the novel that is too often glossed over. It has genuinely terrifying moments.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Absolutely - this has great untapped potential. Fingers crossed.
  • edited April 2023 Posts: 2,918
    I just got back from an advance screening of Renfield. Cartoonish fun, worth seeing for Nicholas Cage's vitality as Dracula. Sinking his teeth into the role, he does the opposite of a vampire: he gives life. His performance is gleefully comedic, with line readings that lap up every irony possible in the script, but not self-indulgent camp. Cage's Dracula is petulant, domineering, and in love with his own creepiness. And there's never any doubt that he's pure evil; Cage has continual undercurrent of menace.

    As Renfield, Nicholas Hoult is a bloodsoaked nebbish with layers of dopey sweetness. His performance has its own vitality, and he's utterly convincing as the meek servant with a core of decency who finally finds the gumption to stand up to his boss.

    In some stretches the movie becomes a live-action Adult Swim cartoon, tackling an aburd premise with snarky dialogue and comedically over the top gore. But the craziness isn't sustained, and one has to put up with the conventional narrative and supporting characters: a gangster plot with mafiosos and a good cop played by Awkwafina, whose character is little more than attitude and a backstory. There's a conflict between the anarchic energy of Cage's Dracula and the deadening modern-movie tropes that even comedic filmmakers feel the mistaken need for.

    The movie honors its selling point of Nicholas Cage as Dracula in the modern world but doesn't exploit it to the hilt. It peaks about three quarters through. And though it pokes some fun at the cliches of modern therapy culture (Renfield announces he's in a co-dependent relationship) it ends up affirming them. American comedies may be edgy but they're rarely subversive.
  • Posts: 1,860
    Same director as "The Batman Lego Movie". Sounds like a good time though.
  • Posts: 15,123
    I still can't get over how they messed up the Dark Universe. They have the two most iconic classic horror monsters in their most famous looks... and they don't go for them.

    https://collider.com/dark-universe-universal-what-happened/
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    The article pretty much nails it - leading with a diabolically bad and incoherent kiddies Mummy film that was teeming with bad CGI and generic action sequences kicked the legs out from under it. That darker and more low-key version of The Invisible Man was far closer to what I'd been hoping for.
  • Posts: 15,123
    Dwayne Johnson as the Wolfman, Channing Tatum as Van Helsing. Talk about miscasts.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Shows you how badly the whole concept was misfiring, eh?
  • Posts: 15,123
    Venutius wrote: »
    Shows you how badly the whole concept was misfiring, eh?

    The worst thing is that it could work. I mean the idea of a shared "horrorverse" with monsters interrelated could work. But they need to get their stuff straight, both conceptually and from a marketing/branding point of view. What are the most famous monsters of Universal? Dracula and the Monster of Frankenstein. How are they best known in the public eye? The way Lugosi and Karloff portrayed them. So adapt/remake the books/origin al movies first and go from there. First make standalone movies that actually stand on their own, as old fashioned horror flicks, heavy on gothic tropes and aesthetic. Add sequel hooks and I think you have something.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Yes, it definitely could've worked. It's hard to see how Universal misjudged it so badly, tbh.
  • Posts: 15,123
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yes, it definitely could've worked. It's hard to see how Universal misjudged it so badly, tbh.

    They were trying to ape Marvel too much I think. Supernatural and horror stories work on a different level than sci-fi, let alone superhero movies: you must make people believe that the world they know is not all it seems. Thats what creates the unease. In a world where vampires exist, it's not much of a stretch that werewolves, mummies and reanimated corpses do too. But you need to pace it and keep it subtle. Otherwise you banalise the whole thing.
  • Posts: 15,123
    Review of The Last Voyage of the Demeter:
    https://www.theverge.com/23827127/the-last-voyage-of-the-demeter-review
    It's only one review, but I'm not surprised.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    I didn't have a lot of hopes to begin with. On the one hand, I see an intriguing concept, with loads of potential. On the other hand, I fear production companies interfering with the creative process and getting cold feet whenever something strays too far away from a safer narrative. Unless you go full-on indie, you can't do something truly innovative, I think.
  • Posts: 15,123
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I didn't have a lot of hopes to begin with. On the one hand, I see an intriguing concept, with loads of potential. On the other hand, I fear production companies interfering with the creative process and getting cold feet whenever something strays too far away from a safer narrative. Unless you go full-on indie, you can't do something truly innovative, I think.

    Also, I think with Dracula, Sherlock Holmes, King Arthur and other iconic characters, the name recognition is used to sell a project regardless of quality. They use the name as branding, but little else.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,152
    A great shame - there really is a lot of untapped potential in the story of the voyage of the Demeter. Sounds like it's still untapped.
  • Posts: 15,123
    There's a lot of potential for a faithful adaptation of the whole novel, if someone would finally decide to do it.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,152
    Indeed, so. Have to say, I've got less hope for a faithful adaptation of the book now than I had three or four years ago when I hoped that someone like Amazon or Netflix might do a full-length, multi-episode adaptation. I suspect that we'd've had that by now if it was coming. In the absence of that, I do think that it's an interesting idea to look more closely at some of the things that weren't the main focus of the book - the voyage of the Demeter being a perfect example of how to use the source material while bringing new stories out of it. Unfortunately, it hasn't been done very well, apparently, but I'd still say that the idea's sound. Would there be similar mileage in the Brides? Wouldn't Dracula's Guest be worth filming? Or how Countess Dolingen 'sought and found death'? Was she really the 'fair' Bride noted by Harker, etc. There must be someone who can realise all of this potential.
  • Posts: 15,123
    The thing about Dracula's Guest is that it's such a rough draft and as a short story doesn't really work without the whole novel... which it doesn't quite stick too properly. I love it, but I take it as a promising early draft. For genetic studies, it's a goldmine.

    I myself have worked on a fanfic about Dracula becoming vampire at Scholomance. A part of his background that is canonical, but never used (as far as I know) in adaptations. Coppola went for some cheesy love story instead, Dracula 2000 made him Judas (I mean seriously?), Marvel comics got him bitten by a vampire Gypsie and so on, but Scholomance is nowhere to be found. In Stoker's novel, it establishes Dracula as a quasi Antichrist.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,152
    No, I don't think I've ever seen anything that took and expanded Stoker's line about Dracula's ancestors learning the secrets of the Devil 'at the Scholomance' - agreed, there's definitely potential in that.
    I love Dracula's Guest, too. There's a great sense of 'otherness' all through it - at first merely by Harker being a Victorian English bloke in a foreign country and culture, the 'superstition' about Walpurgis Night, suicides at crossroads, the rumours of an old village that had been deserted when the dead had been found as if alive in their graves, etc, but also physically 'other' - when he leaves the safety of the coach the main road's like a boundary and once he's off it and walking down the disused road into deserted countryside, the only person for miles around, it's increasingly obvious that he's left the 'normal' rational world behind. I'd say that sets up a potentially great film.
    There's so much stuff in it that would really work visually, too - the tall thin man seen at a distance on the hill who disappears as the horses bolt, the weather becoming more extreme the further he goes, finding the deserted village, the snowstorm, the moonlight revealing that the stand of yew trees (symbolic of eternal life!) he's sheltered in is in the old cemetery - the same one where the dead had been found as if alive in their graves centuries earlier. And it's Walpurgis Night, when the dead walk... The great tomb driven through with an iron spike, 'The dead travel fast', Countess Dolingen lying inside as if sleeping, the lightning strike, her screams, the howling of wolves in the storm and the 'vague, white, moving mass' all around as the graves open and they close in on him through the hail...then the appearance of the 'wolf...yet not a wolf' that turns out to have protected him until he's rescued. I really do think there's a minor classic in all of that.
    Off the top of my head, seeing as Harker wasn't mentioned by name in the story, you could even not call it 'Dracula's Guest' and not reveal Harker's name until the end when he got back to the hotel and was given the telegram. Bit of a stunt reveal, but it'd probably work. And it'd be a damn sight better than having Dracula be Judas, eh!
  • Posts: 15,123
    Yes like that it could definitely work. Like in a one hour movie or something. I don't think the short story can "stick" to the full novel somehow. The supernatural is revealed very early on.
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