Lashana Lynch as 007 and the Women of 'No Time to Die' (SPOILERS!)

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  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    Welcome aboard, @00Heaven

    And a great post to start with, too. Absolutely spot on.
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 1,220
    Well said, @00Heaven! I'm glad you raised the point about Bond not being given his number back too. I've heard quite a few people take it as a given that Bond will get his 007 number back by the end of the film, but I doubt that for a couple reasons.

    The first being, it would fly in the face of the "principle" of Bond being replaced by a black woman. While I don't think this was a move made solely for social/political reasons, I don't think the principle of giving the 007 number to a black female and then revoking it and giving it back to the white male character would sit well with many.

    The second reason being, I can't imagine Bond going back on his decision to leave the service in Spectre, certainly not at this point in his career seeing his age was already an issue in Skyfall, and now he's been retired for a few years after Spectre. It would make a lot of sense for this to be his "one last job" type of mission rather than Bond somehow rediscovering his love for being an agent and throwing himself back into the fray indefinitely, especially being Craig's last film.

    I believe this move fits into the over-arching commentary of the Craig film's questioning Bond's relevance in this day and age, and the concept of a retired James Bond being replaced with a female 007 could ultimately convey that there is an appetite for and room in the franchise for many fantastic and capable NEW characters and agents such as Nomi, but ultimately what makes Bond Bond cannot be easily replaced. You can call Nomi "007" she can be a great character, kickass in her own right, but just calling any character "007" doesn't make them Bond. Just like how Bond was a sort of meta symbol of the franchise itself in Skyfall, I believe that Lynch's character can be symbolic of the Mission Impossible, John Wick, type franchises that are massively entertaining and successful in their own right, and while there is a place for them in the world, James Bond will always be James Bond.

    Lastly from a studio perspective, this gives a good opportunity to grow the franchise between film instalments and dip into the "cinematic universe" territory. If Bond 25 and Lashana Lynch's character are extremely well received, I could see an interest in developing a spinoff Netflix/Amazon Prime series that continues Craig's continuity by following Nomi's adventures as 007, while the main cinematic universe Bond is rebooted as male.
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 575
    Well said, @00Heaven! I'm glad you raised the point about Bond not being given his number back too. I've heard quite a few people take it as a given that Bond will get his 007 number back by the end of the film, but I doubt that for a couple reasons.

    The first being, it would fly in the face of the "principle" of Bond being replaced by a black woman. While I don't think this was a move made solely for social/political reasons, I don't think the principle of giving the 007 number to a black female and then revoking it and giving it back to the white male character would sit well with many.

    The second reason being, I can't imagine Bond going back on his decision to leave the service in Spectre, certainly not at this point in his career seeing his age was already an issue in Skyfall, and now he's been retired for a few years after Spectre. It would make a lot of sense for this to be his "one last job" type of mission rather than Bond somehow rediscovering his love for being an agent and throwing himself back into the fray indefinitely, especially being Craig's last film.

    I believe this move fits into the over-arching commentary of the Craig film's questioning Bond's relevance in this day and age, and the concept of a retired James Bond being replaced with a female 007 could ultimately convey that there is an appetite for and room in the franchise for many fantastic and capable NEW characters and agents such as Nomi, but ultimately what makes Bond Bond cannot be easily replaced. You can call Nomi "007" she can be a great character, kickass in her own right, but just calling any character "007" doesn't make them Bond. Just like how Bond was a sort of meta symbol of the franchise itself in Skyfall, I believe that Lynch's character can be symbolic of the Mission Impossible, John Wick, type franchises that are massively entertaining and successful in their own right, and while there is a place for them in the world, James Bond will always be James Bond.

    Lastly from a studio perspective, this gives a good opportunity to grow the franchise between film instalments and dip into the "cinematic universe" territory. If Bond 25 and Lashana Lynch's character are extremely well received, I could see an interest in developing a spinoff Netflix/Amazon Prime series that continues Craig's continuity by following Nomi's adventures as 007, while the main cinematic universe Bond is rebooted as male.

    Excellent points! Thank you for the well thought out post!
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited July 2019 Posts: 13,978
    echo wrote: »

    "Tradition" is code for racism and sexism.

    Take a look around you. The world is more diverse. It's increasingly less white. Women and minorities can hold top jobs in business and government just as well as white men traditionally have. They can even--gasp!--drive cars (someone actually made that argument).

    And by the way, James Bond in B25 is still being played by a white man, Daniel Craig.

    So the Aston Martin grille is racist and sexist?


    No, it's not (on both counts).
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    edited July 2019 Posts: 3,497
    echo wrote: »

    "Tradition" is code for racism and sexism.

    Take a look around you. The world is more diverse. It's increasingly less white. Women and minorities can hold top jobs in business and government just as well as white men traditionally have. They can even--gasp!--drive cars (someone actually made that argument).

    And by the way, James Bond in B25 is still being played by a white man, Daniel Craig.

    So the Aston Martin grille is racist and sexist?


    No, it's not (on both counts).

    Even about that people are moaning. "NO DB5". While in my theater, people almost cheered when it appeard in Skyfall...

    And Bond will have his 007 "code", sorry 00heaven. But welcome to this wonderful forum. :-h
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    echo wrote: »

    "Tradition" is code for racism and sexism.

    Take a look around you. The world is more diverse. It's increasingly less white. Women and minorities can hold top jobs in business and government just as well as white men traditionally have. They can even--gasp!--drive cars (someone actually made that argument).

    And by the way, James Bond in B25 is still being played by a white man, Daniel Craig.

    So the Aston Martin grille is racist and sexist?


    No, it's not (on both counts).

    Even about that people are moaning. "NO DB5". While in my theater, people almost cheered when it appeard in Skyfall...

    And Bond will have his 007 "code", sorry 00heaven. But welcome to this wonderful forum. :-h

    I'm sick to seeing the DB5 to be honest, I have never found it that attractive. I'm not disputing its iconic status as 'The Most Famous Car In The World', but I much prefer the sleek stylings of the classic DBS and V8 Vantage.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    edited July 2019 Posts: 3,497
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    echo wrote: »

    "Tradition" is code for racism and sexism.

    Take a look around you. The world is more diverse. It's increasingly less white. Women and minorities can hold top jobs in business and government just as well as white men traditionally have. They can even--gasp!--drive cars (someone actually made that argument).

    And by the way, James Bond in B25 is still being played by a white man, Daniel Craig.

    So the Aston Martin grille is racist and sexist?


    No, it's not (on both counts).

    Even about that people are moaning. "NO DB5". While in my theater, people almost cheered when it appeard in Skyfall...

    And Bond will have his 007 "code", sorry 00heaven. But welcome to this wonderful forum. :-h

    I'm sick to seeing the DB5 to be honest, I have never found it that attractive. I'm not disputing its iconic status as 'The Most Famous Car In The World', but I much prefer the sleek stylings of the classic DBS and V8 Vantage.

    The V8 Vantage is one of the most beautiful cars ever made, the same goes for the 2005-2017 model. I like the current one too, except for the grille...

    But then again, I'm a huge AM fan. [-(
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 17,740
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    Even about that people are moaning. "NO DB5". While in my theater, people almost cheered when it appeard in Skyfall...

    I've never experienced people cheering during a screening at the cinema – neither for Bond or any other films. Is that normal?

    Loud talking, loud eating, use of smartphones, people kicking in the back of the seat of the person in front of them, on the the other hand…
  • Posts: 309
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    echo wrote: »

    "Tradition" is code for racism and sexism.

    Take a look around you. The world is more diverse. It's increasingly less white. Women and minorities can hold top jobs in business and government just as well as white men traditionally have. They can even--gasp!--drive cars (someone actually made that argument).

    And by the way, James Bond in B25 is still being played by a white man, Daniel Craig.

    So the Aston Martin grille is racist and sexist?


    No, it's not (on both counts).

    Even about that people are moaning. "NO DB5". While in my theater, people almost cheered when it appeard in Skyfall...

    And Bond will have his 007 "code", sorry 00heaven. But welcome to this wonderful forum. :-h

    I'm sick to seeing the DB5 to be honest, I have never found it that attractive. I'm not disputing its iconic status as 'The Most Famous Car In The World', but I much prefer the sleek stylings of the classic DBS and V8 Vantage.

    Personaly I adore DB5 but i like V8 Vantage too.

    Also I'm wondering what EON will do with Nomi as female 007. They'll kill her? Give her other "00" number?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    If she dies it'll probably be a very heroic death, for fighting the good fight. This inspires Bond to reclaim the 007 designation as a way of trying to honor her legacy. Maybe even keep a memento of her's, much like how he has kept Judi Dench's bulldog.
  • Posts: 6,709
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    echo wrote: »

    "Tradition" is code for racism and sexism.

    Take a look around you. The world is more diverse. It's increasingly less white. Women and minorities can hold top jobs in business and government just as well as white men traditionally have. They can even--gasp!--drive cars (someone actually made that argument).

    And by the way, James Bond in B25 is still being played by a white man, Daniel Craig.

    So the Aston Martin grille is racist and sexist?


    No, it's not (on both counts).

    Even about that people are moaning. "NO DB5". While in my theater, people almost cheered when it appeard in Skyfall...

    And Bond will have his 007 "code", sorry 00heaven. But welcome to this wonderful forum. :-h

    I'm sick to seeing the DB5 to be honest, I have never found it that attractive. I'm not disputing its iconic status as 'The Most Famous Car In The World', but I much prefer the sleek stylings of the classic DBS and V8 Vantage.

    The V8 Vantage is one of the most beautiful cars ever made, the same goes for the 2005-2017 model. I like the current one too, except for the grille...

    But then again, I'm a huge AM fan. [-(

    I'm a huge AM fan as well, and I do like the current iteration's grille ;) and lights, and engine, and everything ;)

    And I adore the DB5, it's my favourite car, up there with the Jag e-type and the 250GTO.

    I even like the Valhalla. So, I'm happy :)
  • Posts: 71
    Oh, so maybe Bond not being given back his number?
    It's getting worse.
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    I think it will be like casino Royale except this time he earns his 007 at the end instead of the start.
  • infoviseinfovise Ireland
    edited July 2019 Posts: 114
    I don't think it would make sense for Bond to earn back his codename at the end of B25 because it's Craig's last film, I'd say he's earning it back in the middle and retiring at the end.
  • Posts: 678
    What's the point of coming back from retirement to retire again?

    I'm betting myself on a YOLT type of ending...
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    What's the point of coming back from retirement to retire again?

    I'm betting myself on a YOLT type of ending...

    What's that?
  • Posts: 678
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    What's that?
    In the novel, Bond "suffers a head injury, leaving him an amnesiac living as a Japanese fisherman with Kissy, while the rest of the world believes him dead; his obituary appears in the newspapers."

    Bond also "strangles" Blofeld in the novel, and in this movie he curiously "strangles" Malek's villain as far as we know.

    Wink wink.
  • Posts: 12,462
    What's the point of coming back from retirement to retire again?

    I'm betting myself on a YOLT type of ending...

    Yup same. Just seems like the signs are pointing to a partial YOLT adaptation.
  • infoviseinfovise Ireland
    Posts: 114
    @FrankXavier One more mission type deal? I don't know does seem stupid in hindsight. Should of thought about what I was typing.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    21st Century:
    DAD was a goofy romp a' la DAF.
    CR was a jarring reboot, a bit pretentious, but well crafted.
    QoS was the best Bond since LTK.
    SF kinda sucked, but kill a main character & people seem to love it.
    SP was back to the fun of the series, if a bit dull in spots.
    This next one may be great, shaken AND stirred.
    (Just my opinion)


  • Posts: 678
    infovise wrote: »
    @FrankXavier One more mission type deal? I don't know does seem stupid in hindsight. Should of thought about what I was typing.
    I don't think it was stupid, just seemed a bit pointless to me.

    I can see the "one last mission" thing, though! Even if I don't like a sense of finality for this character. He should be immortally a spy.
  • Posts: 10
    I am principally a book lover. Every so often a film or sequence of films come along which for me are somehow more "in the spirit" of Bond. However I have been experiencing the movies for 54 years. Bond was written in the fifties and whilst he can remain something similar, the world around him cannot. I suspect that maybe why some fans would like a historical Bond run, set in the era they were written, to ease that issue.

    So a Bond film made in 2019 has to be about an "in the spirit" Bond who is reacting to the world in which he finds himself. At the end of Spectre he chose to walk away from MI6 in a highly symbolic scene crossing the bridge to the other side. Put simply he is no longer 007.

    It makes sense then, given Cary's view of continuity, for the Bond we find in 2020 to be retired from the service. I suspect the PTS and or pre Jamaica scenes, will underwrite this decision and reflect the nature of his relationship with Madeleine in 2020, as well as make a link between Madeleine and the villain (something which BB has indicated exists between Malik's character and one of the entourage) I am simply speculating, based on footage seen, that it is Madeleine. But sometimes a cigar is a cigar.

    So we know Bond is brought out of his isolation by Felix and the BSS becomes involved to the point that Bond finds it appropriate to visit his old employers end of ACT 2 beginning of Act 3.

    At that point he is like many of us faced with the reality of what has come after us and finding things have changed. There is a great opportunity to create drama out of this. For Bond who has a very interesting, conflicted and complex relationship with woman to be replaced by a woman increases the potential for drama.

    I am sure the push to sculpt this movie into something which Daniel is comfortable with was an attempt to capture the kind of momentum and tension of say QOS. However the personal interaction needs to recapture the insights of CR. Bond needs to have satisfying outcomes with all three co stars. The risks are there not just for one actor but all three woman actors Paloma as the sacrificial lamb, Madeleine as the token death and Nomi as tokenism.

    I always want a Bond film to succeed and so my hope is that none of those things come about and at the end of the film we know daniel has mined all he can of this complex and interesting character which is now as much about his creation as Flemings.

    I know that people do not pay attention and as Ripley said "Have IQ's dropped around here" but as many of you have pointed out Bond is still James Bond and that someone has replaced him is another opportunity to see how this Bond feels about it. He will probably not notice the persons colour any more than he did Felix in CR or MP in SF but he will focus on her as a professional how she "performed" in Cuba and the stakes of the story.

    Although the film has reached 155 scenes and is moving up to Scotland it might be relevant that the news about Lashana has been timed for release. Lashana is first act, she is second act but beyond that will shall see. She could be a sacrificial lamb a plot device but heaven forbid maybe just maybe this very committed team who are constantly thinking on their feet may get it right its not impossible to be positive. However for a double O with a licence to kill to be killed is not stretching credibility or tokenism its what happens in this world.

    Gentlemen I know its terribly difficult when you are passionate about something but given the low attention span, sound bite world we live in all you can do is switch off and work out that the vast majority of people in wherever it is you are only vaguely aware of all of this, if at all, and ironically because we are low attention span it will pass, even the tabloids will move on to their next scoop "endangered species of bird are not laying eggs in Southern Italy" because of the disruption caused by the filming.

    Bond being retired has huge scope and the PTS can, should Cary decide, offer a pocket story of wish fulfilment/interrupted/reality dealt with, setting up the way most of the time Bond, and some of the time Swann, deal with the fact that they are essentially the same. From traumatised back grounds, loners hiding in the shadows who will never escape their past and can never find the quiet life.

    I think drowning will be an important metaphor in this film, Vesper did, the young girl did not, but sometimes it feels like the world is and only those on the outside of all the noise can fix it.




  • edited July 2019 Posts: 3,333
    For those that want to read the Telegraph article written by Madeline Grant titled "We hardcore Bond fans crave escapism - not a morality tale of #MeToo and toxic masculinity" but can't due to the newspaper website having a paywall, Nerdrotic on Youtube shows it in full and gives it his own breakdown.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    Posting a Nerdrotic video isn’t really helpful. Might as well throw in other YouTubers like Midnight’s Edge and Doomcock while you’re at it. I don’t doubt they’re whining about the SJW/feminist agenda as usual, hoping to “predict” another Ghostbusters ‘16 situation.
  • Posts: 6,709
    I am principally a book lover. Every so often a film or sequence of films come along which for me are somehow more "in the spirit" of Bond. However I have been experiencing the movies for 54 years. Bond was written in the fifties and whilst he can remain something similar, the world around him cannot. I suspect that maybe why some fans would like a historical Bond run, set in the era they were written, to ease that issue.

    So a Bond film made in 2019 has to be about an "in the spirit" Bond who is reacting to the world in which he finds himself. At the end of Spectre he chose to walk away from MI6 in a highly symbolic scene crossing the bridge to the other side. Put simply he is no longer 007.

    It makes sense then, given Cary's view of continuity, for the Bond we find in 2020 to be retired from the service. I suspect the PTS and or pre Jamaica scenes, will underwrite this decision and reflect the nature of his relationship with Madeleine in 2020, as well as make a link between Madeleine and the villain (something which BB has indicated exists between Malik's character and one of the entourage) I am simply speculating, based on footage seen, that it is Madeleine. But sometimes a cigar is a cigar.

    So we know Bond is brought out of his isolation by Felix and the BSS becomes involved to the point that Bond finds it appropriate to visit his old employers end of ACT 2 beginning of Act 3.

    At that point he is like many of us faced with the reality of what has come after us and finding things have changed. There is a great opportunity to create drama out of this. For Bond who has a very interesting, conflicted and complex relationship with woman to be replaced by a woman increases the potential for drama.

    I am sure the push to sculpt this movie into something which Daniel is comfortable with was an attempt to capture the kind of momentum and tension of say QOS. However the personal interaction needs to recapture the insights of CR. Bond needs to have satisfying outcomes with all three co stars. The risks are there not just for one actor but all three woman actors Paloma as the sacrificial lamb, Madeleine as the token death and Nomi as tokenism.

    I always want a Bond film to succeed and so my hope is that none of those things come about and at the end of the film we know daniel has mined all he can of this complex and interesting character which is now as much about his creation as Flemings.

    I know that people do not pay attention and as Ripley said "Have IQ's dropped around here" but as many of you have pointed out Bond is still James Bond and that someone has replaced him is another opportunity to see how this Bond feels about it. He will probably not notice the persons colour any more than he did Felix in CR or MP in SF but he will focus on her as a professional how she "performed" in Cuba and the stakes of the story.

    Although the film has reached 155 scenes and is moving up to Scotland it might be relevant that the news about Lashana has been timed for release. Lashana is first act, she is second act but beyond that will shall see. She could be a sacrificial lamb a plot device but heaven forbid maybe just maybe this very committed team who are constantly thinking on their feet may get it right its not impossible to be positive. However for a double O with a licence to kill to be killed is not stretching credibility or tokenism its what happens in this world.

    Gentlemen I know its terribly difficult when you are passionate about something but given the low attention span, sound bite world we live in all you can do is switch off and work out that the vast majority of people in wherever it is you are only vaguely aware of all of this, if at all, and ironically because we are low attention span it will pass, even the tabloids will move on to their next scoop "endangered species of bird are not laying eggs in Southern Italy" because of the disruption caused by the filming.

    Bond being retired has huge scope and the PTS can, should Cary decide, offer a pocket story of wish fulfilment/interrupted/reality dealt with, setting up the way most of the time Bond, and some of the time Swann, deal with the fact that they are essentially the same. From traumatised back grounds, loners hiding in the shadows who will never escape their past and can never find the quiet life.

    I think drowning will be an important metaphor in this film, Vesper did, the young girl did not, but sometimes it feels like the world is and only those on the outside of all the noise can fix it.

    I enjoyed this post immensely, @MichelleJohnston.
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 4,408
    Whilst the discussion rages about Lashana Lynch. Let's not forget the film also has other actresses in it's ranks. Including the rather outstanding Ana De Armas......

    celeb01.jpg

    Ana-de-Armas:-GQ-Mexico-2018-adds--09-662x891.jpg

    women_Ana_de_Armas_actress_cuban_model_see_through_clothing-1570433.jpg!d
  • Posts: 17,740
    It will be interesting to learn more about Ana De Armas' role eventually.
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 1,661
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    Nomi will not lose her status. I'm calling it right now, there will be a scene at the end of the movie where Craig hands off the mantle to her and she gets either a spin-off series or becomes 007 forever.

    God I hope not...that would put me off going to see the film for sure.
    I would probably rent it on SKY when it comes out,to see if I can tolerate it before I think about buying it.

    They almost did it after DAD, remember? The character Jinx was all set up to be in a spin-off series, strong black woman and all.

    Yep...but not as 007....THATS the problem.

    Doesn't matter. See, it's the slowly boiling frog analogy. When precedence is set, it's easier to push the agenda forward into a more focused, physical, and more powerful reality. Jinx was just a first, tentative step. In today's hyper PC culture, the #metoo movement, the active push against "toxic masculinity", and everything else, this is all they need.

    Perhaps Bond 25's title should be

    Toxic Masculinity

    ;))

    MG wanted

    Death To Spies

    but Phoebe Waller-Bridge telephoned Babs and said "don't listen to him, go with Toxic Masculinity!"

    "Don't you think that's a bit too extreme, Phoebe?"

    "Well I actually prefer 'Kill All Men' as the title, Barbara, but 'Toxic Masculinity' will do!"


    :D
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    edited July 2019 Posts: 5,185
    fanbond123 wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    Nomi will not lose her status. I'm calling it right now, there will be a scene at the end of the movie where Craig hands off the mantle to her and she gets either a spin-off series or becomes 007 forever.

    God I hope not...that would put me off going to see the film for sure.
    I would probably rent it on SKY when it comes out,to see if I can tolerate it before I think about buying it.

    They almost did it after DAD, remember? The character Jinx was all set up to be in a spin-off series, strong black woman and all.

    Yep...but not as 007....THATS the problem.

    Doesn't matter. See, it's the slowly boiling frog analogy. When precedence is set, it's easier to push the agenda forward into a more focused, physical, and more powerful reality. Jinx was just a first, tentative step. In today's hyper PC culture, the #metoo movement, the active push against "toxic masculinity", and everything else, this is all they need.

    Perhaps Bond 25's title should be

    Toxic Masculinity

    ;))

    MG wanted

    Death To Spies

    but Phoebe Waller-Bridge telephoned Babs and said "don't listen to him, go with Toxic Masculinity!"

    "Don't you think that's a bit too extreme, Phoebe?"

    "Well I actually prefer 'Kill All Men' as the title, Barbara, but 'Toxic Masculinity' will do!"


    :D

    Nah, the movie will be called "Girl Power", the title Song will be performed by Beyonce which will simply be a orchestrated Version of her hit single 'Run the World (Girls)'
    And the title sequence will show a CGI reimagining of some of Bond's most sexist moments in which the girls fight back this time (e.g. Dink slapping him in the face, Patricia kicking him in the crotch, the PTS chick from DAF spraying him with pepperspray, and Severine screaming for security who throw him off the boat).

    giphy.webp
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Anyone feeling a little embarrassed to be a Bond fan at the moment?
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