Lashana Lynch as 007 and the Women of 'No Time to Die' (SPOILERS!)

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Comments

  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    It's the business I'm afraid @AstonLotus, while quotes like that may not appeal to a lot of people, and be seen as a marketing gimmick, at the same time, it boldly gets the message across to those they may have not been interested otherwise, and also while it may seem like they're not breaking new ground, I do think what they've done with these female characters (from what we've seen) has done something for a lot of people.

    A few people I think will actually see this film just because of them. Lynch being a fan favourite in Captain Marvel, and Ana de Armas just being a fan favourite in general. Seydoux and Harris have a smaller fan base but still present in people I know.

    They've definitely stepped up the Bond girls this time round. The tradition used to be one survives, one dead and one who probably will say one line, even in the Craig-era we've had that, so I think it's great to see that they've grabbed the bull by its horns with this one, and offered us three Bond girls in one film that all seem to play a vital role.

    @Denbigh I think what i am missing the most is women from different professions(we had bond girls as pilot, astronauts, computer programmer etc. doing actual work) other than being a spy or in action, vesper as an accountant and Madeline being a psychologist are the only one's we have seen in this era. It would be great if Madeline interact as a psychologist with Blofeld as we have seen in trailers, she was at mi6. Hope you get what i am saying by "doing actual work which contributes to the story".

    I think also perhaps it might be time not to treat women as sex objects. We’ve got supporting characters like M, Q, Tanner etc all played by fairly ordinary looking guys (well, they’re not ugly at all but not male models) whereas every female role is filled by some sexpot doing photo shoots in loads of magazines. Why can’t we have a few less extraordinary females if we have some ordinary males in it?

    To be honest i have no problem having good looking M, Q, Tanner as well, let ladies have some fun as well ;)
    My GF Find Ralph Fiennes really hot(at least when he was younger), Can't say much about Q or Tanner.

    That’s kind of getting what I’m saying the wrong way around! :)

    Haha i know what you are saying buddy, I am fine either way, if they bring not so good looking girl's, more professional and less as sex object i'll be happy with that, but will general audience watch that? We don't know that yet. As I said what i am missing the most these days in any action or spy series is women from different professions as lead actresses showing their skills, doing actual work which contributes to the story.

    Moreover, bond series is male fantasy and not a realistic spy film's like Bourne. They need some glamour and escapism into it if they wish to attract more audience. You can take a look at female fantasy film's like twilight and Fifty Shades Trilogy, both film's have good looking ,handsome men but women are more average looking, not someone like Eva Green or Monica bellucci, and we all know the reason for that. I don't blame them for doing this. Although, there is always room for improvement.
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited July 2020 Posts: 4,520
    Eva Green. There are moments she looks hot, but it be her inner looks that i don't like. Same can be said about Madeline and Lea. L' American scenes i like her the moost. Tracy/Diana was realy a actres/chacter i must like, found her sister in the movie more my girl. I also like sister of golden girl in gf more then golden girl. Elektra/Sophie another learn to like.

    Ana. First ipression nah, but later inpressions in looks and her inner i like a lot. Fyeo havelock girl i consider as hot too and like tld girl also and Camile and Fields. Mabey at Rosamund Pike to this list too.
    Denise Richards. I was 19 when she was seen in Twine and 17 or so when i seen Wild Things. Never be fan of her looks and i don't mind her in Twine. I like her contribution.
    Halle Barry. Liked her as Storm, don't feel that hate people have with she playing cat woman. Lashana givea a better first inpression then Barry, not fan again about there inner. Of course she is older actres.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,421
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    It's the business I'm afraid @AstonLotus, while quotes like that may not appeal to a lot of people, and be seen as a marketing gimmick, at the same time, it boldly gets the message across to those they may have not been interested otherwise, and also while it may seem like they're not breaking new ground, I do think what they've done with these female characters (from what we've seen) has done something for a lot of people.

    A few people I think will actually see this film just because of them. Lynch being a fan favourite in Captain Marvel, and Ana de Armas just being a fan favourite in general. Seydoux and Harris have a smaller fan base but still present in people I know.

    They've definitely stepped up the Bond girls this time round. The tradition used to be one survives, one dead and one who probably will say one line, even in the Craig-era we've had that, so I think it's great to see that they've grabbed the bull by its horns with this one, and offered us three Bond girls in one film that all seem to play a vital role.

    @Denbigh I think what i am missing the most is women from different professions(we had bond girls as pilot, astronauts, computer programmer etc. doing actual work) other than being a spy or in action, vesper as an accountant and Madeline being a psychologist are the only one's we have seen in this era. It would be great if Madeline interact as a psychologist with Blofeld as we have seen in trailers, she was at mi6. Hope you get what i am saying by "doing actual work which contributes to the story".

    I think also perhaps it might be time not to treat women as sex objects. We’ve got supporting characters like M, Q, Tanner etc all played by fairly ordinary looking guys (well, they’re not ugly at all but not male models) whereas every female role is filled by some sexpot doing photo shoots in loads of magazines. Why can’t we have a few less extraordinary females if we have some ordinary males in it?

    To be honest i have no problem having good looking M, Q, Tanner as well, let ladies have some fun as well ;)
    My GF Find Ralph Fiennes really hot(at least when he was younger), Can't say much about Q or Tanner.

    That’s kind of getting what I’m saying the wrong way around! :)

    Haha i know what you are saying buddy, I am fine either way, if they bring not so good looking girl's, more professional and less as sex object i'll be happy with that, but will general audience watch that? We don't know that yet.

    Why wouldn't they? Does Rory Kinnear stop people watching the films?
    As I said what i am missing the most these days in any action or spy series is women from different professions as lead actresses showing their skills, doing actual work which contributes to the story.

    Yeah I'll go with that. Hopefully Swann and Nomi are both contributing professionally to this one: the trailers seem to suggest that. Fingers crossed.
    Moreover, bond series is male fantasy and not a realistic spy film's like Bourne. They need some glamour and escapism into it if they wish to attract more audience. You can take a look at female fantasy film's like twilight and Fifty Shades Trilogy, both film's have good looking ,handsome men but women are more average looking, not someone like Eva Green or Monica bellucci, and we all know the reason for that. I don't blame them for doing this. Although, there is always room for improvement.

    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.
  • edited July 2020 Posts: 6,709
    mtm wrote: »
    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.
    Yeah, because god forbid they do that nowadays. “Male fantasy” is the zenith of patriarchy, right? I know you didn’t say that, btw, and they’ve catered to both male and female fantasy wise in the Craig era. But there’s nothing wrong with a “male fantasy” driven adventure, imo.


  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.
  • Posts: 6,709
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    That’s true. Is there a Craig Bond film where he doesn’t show up shirtless at least once?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2020 Posts: 16,421
    Univex wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.
    Yeah, because god forbid they do that nowadays. “Male fantasy” is the zenith of patriarchy, right? I know you didn’t say that, btw, and they’ve catered to both male and female fantasy wise in the Craig era. But there’s nothing wrong with a “male fantasy” driven adventure, imo.


    Sure.
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    Yeah it has started. Really it started with Dalton, and then weirdly went slightly backwards, making Bond into a 'dinosaur sexist', even though that had actually been phased out with Dalton (and fans didn't complain about it then: you still find folks on here rating him very highly and saying how much like Fleming's Bond he was). I don't think there's anything wrong with pressing on like that.
    I'm fine with him liking big cars and fine wines and all that, but I don't see any reason to treat women as exclusively sex objects any more. As you say, the Craig films have made some movement towards that: it's nice that Camille and Bond had a platonic relationship, but equally she was absolutely drop-dead gorgeous. Our new Moneypenny is a stunningly beautiful woman (who Bond pesters) while our new Tanner is just some average-looking guy.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    edited July 2020 Posts: 737
    One thing I don't want to happen in NTTD is for Bond to be aggrieved affronted, offended, amused, or threatened by the fact that a woman is a 00 (as is implied in the trailer). There is absolutely no reason he would be, and the 'issue' of female agents was dealt with as early as FRWL and returned to repeatedly roughly every other film.

    Bond has never had a problem with strong women. And has encountered many who are as tough as he is.

    So if, out of the fucking blue, he raises any issue whatsoever about Nomi being a 00 I will take it as further evidence that those in charge of writing Bond these days know absolutely nothing at all about the character as he has been portrayed in the previous films.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2020 Posts: 16,421
    One thing I don't want to happen in NTTD is for Bond to be aggrieved affronted, offended, amused, or threatened by the fact that a woman is a 00 (as is implied in the trailer). There is absolutely no reason he would be, and the 'issue' of female agents was dealt with as early as FRWL and returned to repeatedly roughly every other film.

    I sort of know what you mean. I hope it's more of the idea that she's the opposite of him and personification of the modern world which throws him, and then later we sort of see her journey echoing his in Casino Royale. But being a woman will be part of that and I think it wouldn't be totally out of character for Craig's Bond to be thrown by being replaced by a woman. ‘The character as portrayed in the previous films’ has been a sexist: the only female colleague he hasn’t tried to hit on in the last four movies was M! Did you not spot that?

    Bond being 'of the old world' has always been a theme right from the beginning. Check out his flat in Dr No with its chinzy prints of Edwardian motor vehicles on the wall and compare it to Dr No's space age pad at the end.
  • edited July 2020 Posts: 6,709
    One thing I don't want to happen in NTTD is for Bond to be aggrieved affronted, offended, amused, or threatened by the fact that a woman is a 00 (as is implied in the trailer). There is absolutely no reason he would be, and the 'issue' of female agents was dealt with as early as FRWL and returned to repeatedly roughly every other film.

    Bond has never had a problem with strong women. And has encountered many who are as tough as he is.

    So if, out of the fucking blue, he raises any issue whatsoever about Nomi being a 00 I will take it as further evidence that those in charge of writing Bond these days know absolutely nothing at all about the character as he has been portrayed in the previous films.
    Yeah, I agree.
    mtm wrote: »
    One thing I don't want to happen in NTTD is for Bond to be aggrieved affronted, offended, amused, or threatened by the fact that a woman is a 00 (as is implied in the trailer). There is absolutely no reason he would be, and the 'issue' of female agents was dealt with as early as FRWL and returned to repeatedly roughly every other film.

    I sort of know what you mean. I hope it's more of the idea that she's the opposite of him and personification of the modern world which throws him, and then later we sort of see her journey echoing his in Casino Royale. But being a woman will be part of that and I think it wouldn't be totally out of character for Craig's Bond to be thrown by being replaced by a woman.

    Bond being 'of the old world' has always been a theme right from the beginning. Check out his flat in Dr No with its chinzy prints of Edwardian motor vehicles on the wall and compare it to Dr No's space age pad at the end.

    Good post.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    mtm wrote: »
    One thing I don't want to happen in NTTD is for Bond to be aggrieved affronted, offended, amused, or threatened by the fact that a woman is a 00 (as is implied in the trailer). There is absolutely no reason he would be, and the 'issue' of female agents was dealt with as early as FRWL and returned to repeatedly roughly every other film.

    I sort of know what you mean. I hope it's more of the idea that she's the opposite of him and personification of the modern world which throws him, and then later we sort of see her journey echoing his in Casino Royale. But being a woman will be part of that and I think it wouldn't be totally out of character for Craig's Bond to be thrown by being replaced by a woman. ‘The character as portrayed in the previous films’ has been a sexist: the only female colleague he hasn’t tried to hit on in the last four movies was M! Did you not spot that?

    Bond being 'of the old world' has always been a theme right from the beginning. Check out his flat in Dr No with its chinzy prints of Edwardian motor vehicles on the wall and compare it to Dr No's space age pad at the end.

    I didn't say he wasn't a sexist. (Though I am not sure hitting on women and being attracted to them is proof of sexism, exactly). But one thing I am absolutely adamant on is that Bond does not have an ego. He represents almost perfect stoicism in nearly all cases. He would allow for his own castration in service of the mission, for example. That is a man who has killed his ego. He doesn't get offended when people insult him, or lose confidence in himself even if he is beaten, or rejected by a woman. His ability to stay confident in all situations is surely one of the reasons we like him, right?

    It's one of the reasons that line in GE, where Trevelyan says that 'he was always better', annoys me because Bond seems to be offended (though in fairness he doesn't say anything). Trevelyan has an ego - hence why he becomes the villain. Bond doesn't, so he remains the hero.

    So once retired he wouldn't care that a woman was now a 00 or even 007.

    Either way, we can argue the whys and the wherefores about whether he would or wouldn't be offended, but I happen to think it is a spectacularly cheap, tacky, and lame plot thread (should it pan out that way) anyway. That it is based on an invented character trait (resentment that a woman would be a 00), makes it even more pathetic.

    It is just stupid and needless.


  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2020 Posts: 16,421
    mtm wrote: »
    One thing I don't want to happen in NTTD is for Bond to be aggrieved affronted, offended, amused, or threatened by the fact that a woman is a 00 (as is implied in the trailer). There is absolutely no reason he would be, and the 'issue' of female agents was dealt with as early as FRWL and returned to repeatedly roughly every other film.

    I sort of know what you mean. I hope it's more of the idea that she's the opposite of him and personification of the modern world which throws him, and then later we sort of see her journey echoing his in Casino Royale. But being a woman will be part of that and I think it wouldn't be totally out of character for Craig's Bond to be thrown by being replaced by a woman. ‘The character as portrayed in the previous films’ has been a sexist: the only female colleague he hasn’t tried to hit on in the last four movies was M! Did you not spot that?

    Bond being 'of the old world' has always been a theme right from the beginning. Check out his flat in Dr No with its chinzy prints of Edwardian motor vehicles on the wall and compare it to Dr No's space age pad at the end.

    I didn't say he wasn't a sexist. (Though I am not sure hitting on women and being attracted to them is proof of sexism, exactly).

    I think doing that at work kind of is.
    But one thing I am absolutely adamant on is that Bond does not have an ego. He represents almost perfect stoicism in nearly all cases. He would allow for his own castration in service of the mission, for example. That is a man who has killed his ego. He doesn't get offended when people insult him, or lose confidence in himself even if he is beaten, or rejected by a woman. His ability to stay confident in all situations is surely one of the reasons we like him, right?

    Not sure what you mean. He's confident because he has a massive ego: he thinks he's amazing.
    Vesper spotted that when she got out of the lift. Casino Royale is mostly about Bond learning that his huge ego and confidence in his own way of doing things isn't always right.
    It's one of the reasons that line in GE, where Trevelyan says that 'he was always better', annoys me because Bond seems to be offended (though in fairness he doesn't say anything). Trevelyan has an ego - hence why he becomes the villain. Bond doesn't, so he remains the hero.

    Isn't that evidence from the previous films that proves your theory wrong rather than right, though?
    So once retired he wouldn't care that a woman was now a 00 or even 007.

    Either way, we can argue the whys and the wherefores about whether he would or wouldn't be offended, but I happen to think it is a spectacularly cheap, tacky, and lame plot thread (should it pan out that way) anyway. That it is based on an invented character trait (resentment that a woman would be a 00), makes it even more pathetic.

    It is just stupid and needless.

    I think it's possible your reading of his character is a little off though. What do you feel about the 'Bond James bond' gag in the trailer? The basis of that joke is that Bond is slightly aggrieved they've forgotten him so quickly. I haven't heard anyone say these moments are out of character because Bond clearly does have a high opinion of himself and always has.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    edited July 2020 Posts: 2,541
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    It's the business I'm afraid @AstonLotus, while quotes like that may not appeal to a lot of people, and be seen as a marketing gimmick, at the same time, it boldly gets the message across to those they may have not been interested otherwise, and also while it may seem like they're not breaking new ground, I do think what they've done with these female characters (from what we've seen) has done something for a lot of people.

    A few people I think will actually see this film just because of them. Lynch being a fan favourite in Captain Marvel, and Ana de Armas just being a fan favourite in general. Seydoux and Harris have a smaller fan base but still present in people I know.

    They've definitely stepped up the Bond girls this time round. The tradition used to be one survives, one dead and one who probably will say one line, even in the Craig-era we've had that, so I think it's great to see that they've grabbed the bull by its horns with this one, and offered us three Bond girls in one film that all seem to play a vital role.

    @Denbigh I think what i am missing the most is women from different professions(we had bond girls as pilot, astronauts, computer programmer etc. doing actual work) other than being a spy or in action, vesper as an accountant and Madeline being a psychologist are the only one's we have seen in this era. It would be great if Madeline interact as a psychologist with Blofeld as we have seen in trailers, she was at mi6. Hope you get what i am saying by "doing actual work which contributes to the story".

    I think also perhaps it might be time not to treat women as sex objects. We’ve got supporting characters like M, Q, Tanner etc all played by fairly ordinary looking guys (well, they’re not ugly at all but not male models) whereas every female role is filled by some sexpot doing photo shoots in loads of magazines. Why can’t we have a few less extraordinary females if we have some ordinary males in it?

    To be honest i have no problem having good looking M, Q, Tanner as well, let ladies have some fun as well ;)
    My GF Find Ralph Fiennes really hot(at least when he was younger), Can't say much about Q or Tanner.

    That’s kind of getting what I’m saying the wrong way around! :)

    Haha i know what you are saying buddy, I am fine either way, if they bring not so good looking girl's, more professional and less as sex object i'll be happy with that, but will general audience watch that? We don't know that yet.

    Why wouldn't they? Does Rory Kinnear stop people watching the films?
    As I said what i am missing the most these days in any action or spy series is women from different professions as lead actresses showing their skills, doing actual work which contributes to the story.

    Yeah I'll go with that. Hopefully Swann and Nomi are both contributing professionally to this one: the trailers seem to suggest that. Fingers crossed.
    Moreover, bond series is male fantasy and not a realistic spy film's like Bourne. They need some glamour and escapism into it if they wish to attract more audience. You can take a look at female fantasy film's like twilight and Fifty Shades Trilogy, both film's have good looking ,handsome men but women are more average looking, not someone like Eva Green or Monica bellucci, and we all know the reason for that. I don't blame them for doing this. Although, there is always room for improvement.

    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.

    Rory kinnear isn't in the lead bond girls are, maybe that's why they matter. Also, we had Charles in 90s assisting M(and he was quite handsome) instead of tanner in TMN/TWINE/DAD.

    Although I agree there is nothing wrong in being fantasy for both but it's not in my hands.
    Univex wrote: »
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    That’s true. Is there a Craig Bond film where he doesn’t show up shirtless at least once?

    SP.
    mtm wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.
    Yeah, because god forbid they do that nowadays. “Male fantasy” is the zenith of patriarchy, right? I know you didn’t say that, btw, and they’ve catered to both male and female fantasy wise in the Craig era. But there’s nothing wrong with a “male fantasy” driven adventure, imo.


    Sure.
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    Yeah it has started. Really it started with Dalton, and then weirdly went slightly backwards, making Bond into a 'dinosaur sexist', even though that had actually been phased out with Dalton (and fans didn't complain about it then: you still find folks on here rating him very highly and saying how much like Fleming's Bond he was). I don't think there's anything wrong with pressing on like that.
    I'm fine with him liking big cars and fine wines and all that, but I don't see any reason to treat women as exclusively sex objects any more. As you say, the Craig films have made some movement towards that: it's nice that Camille and Bond had a platonic relationship, but equally she was absolutely drop-dead gorgeous. Our new Moneypenny is a stunningly beautiful woman (who Bond pesters) while our new Tanner is just some average-looking guy.

    I think Dalton wasn't any different than others, he may be involved with one woman in TLD but in license to kill he return to being an old dinosaur. Even Q in license to kill mentioned about bond that "field operatives must often use every means at their disposal to achieve their objectives" when Lupe got angry that James spend last night with her as well. Timothy's bond also said to her that he can't be her secretary as "they were south of the borders and it's a man's world". There are many moments like this which shows that he was indeed Fleming bond.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    One thing I don't want to happen in NTTD is for Bond to be aggrieved affronted, offended, amused, or threatened by the fact that a woman is a 00 (as is implied in the trailer). There is absolutely no reason he would be, and the 'issue' of female agents was dealt with as early as FRWL and returned to repeatedly roughly every other film.

    I sort of know what you mean. I hope it's more of the idea that she's the opposite of him and personification of the modern world which throws him, and then later we sort of see her journey echoing his in Casino Royale. But being a woman will be part of that and I think it wouldn't be totally out of character for Craig's Bond to be thrown by being replaced by a woman. ‘The character as portrayed in the previous films’ has been a sexist: the only female colleague he hasn’t tried to hit on in the last four movies was M! Did you not spot that?

    Bond being 'of the old world' has always been a theme right from the beginning. Check out his flat in Dr No with its chinzy prints of Edwardian motor vehicles on the wall and compare it to Dr No's space age pad at the end.

    I didn't say he wasn't a sexist. (Though I am not sure hitting on women and being attracted to them is proof of sexism, exactly).

    I think doing that at work kind of is.
    But one thing I am absolutely adamant on is that Bond does not have an ego. He represents almost perfect stoicism in nearly all cases. He would allow for his own castration in service of the mission, for example. That is a man who has killed his ego. He doesn't get offended when people insult him, or lose confidence in himself even if he is beaten, or rejected by a woman. His ability to stay confident in all situations is surely one of the reasons we like him, right?

    Not sure what you mean. He's confident because he has a massive ego: he thinks he's amazing.
    Vesper spotted that when she got out of the lift. Casino Royale is mostly about Bond learning that his huge ego and confidence in his own way of doing things isn't always right.
    It's one of the reasons that line in GE, where Trevelyan says that 'he was always better', annoys me because Bond seems to be offended (though in fairness he doesn't say anything). Trevelyan has an ego - hence why he becomes the villain. Bond doesn't, so he remains the hero.

    Isn't that evidence from the previous films that proves your theory wrong rather than right, though?
    So once retired he wouldn't care that a woman was now a 00 or even 007.

    Either way, we can argue the whys and the wherefores about whether he would or wouldn't be offended, but I happen to think it is a spectacularly cheap, tacky, and lame plot thread (should it pan out that way) anyway. That it is based on an invented character trait (resentment that a woman would be a 00), makes it even more pathetic.

    It is just stupid and needless.

    I think it's possible your reading of his character is a little off though. What do you feel about the 'Bond James bond' gag in the trailer? The basis of that joke is that Bond is slightly aggrieved they've forgotten him so quickly. I haven't heard anyone say these moments are out of character because Bond clearly does have a high opinion of himself and always has.

    Just because other people say Bond has a high opinion of himself and has a big ego doesn't mean he has.

    Also, just because it happened in a Brosnan film doesn't mean it's correct. His is a pretty dreadful incarnation of the character imo. He speaks almost completely in puns, for one thing. But that's another problem for another day!

    Also, having a lack of ego doesn't mean that the person doesn't have high self esteem.

    If you read about stoicism, you will see that Bond epitomises the idea of the stoics almost completely.

    I don't buy the notion whatsoever that Bond gets rattled by insults, or the fact that a woman is a 00. Should NTTD show him being hurt by insults or aggrieved a woman is a 00, then I would consider that to be an incorrect portrayal of the character. Bond is above such things.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,421
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    It's the business I'm afraid @AstonLotus, while quotes like that may not appeal to a lot of people, and be seen as a marketing gimmick, at the same time, it boldly gets the message across to those they may have not been interested otherwise, and also while it may seem like they're not breaking new ground, I do think what they've done with these female characters (from what we've seen) has done something for a lot of people.

    A few people I think will actually see this film just because of them. Lynch being a fan favourite in Captain Marvel, and Ana de Armas just being a fan favourite in general. Seydoux and Harris have a smaller fan base but still present in people I know.

    They've definitely stepped up the Bond girls this time round. The tradition used to be one survives, one dead and one who probably will say one line, even in the Craig-era we've had that, so I think it's great to see that they've grabbed the bull by its horns with this one, and offered us three Bond girls in one film that all seem to play a vital role.

    @Denbigh I think what i am missing the most is women from different professions(we had bond girls as pilot, astronauts, computer programmer etc. doing actual work) other than being a spy or in action, vesper as an accountant and Madeline being a psychologist are the only one's we have seen in this era. It would be great if Madeline interact as a psychologist with Blofeld as we have seen in trailers, she was at mi6. Hope you get what i am saying by "doing actual work which contributes to the story".

    I think also perhaps it might be time not to treat women as sex objects. We’ve got supporting characters like M, Q, Tanner etc all played by fairly ordinary looking guys (well, they’re not ugly at all but not male models) whereas every female role is filled by some sexpot doing photo shoots in loads of magazines. Why can’t we have a few less extraordinary females if we have some ordinary males in it?

    To be honest i have no problem having good looking M, Q, Tanner as well, let ladies have some fun as well ;)
    My GF Find Ralph Fiennes really hot(at least when he was younger), Can't say much about Q or Tanner.

    That’s kind of getting what I’m saying the wrong way around! :)

    Haha i know what you are saying buddy, I am fine either way, if they bring not so good looking girl's, more professional and less as sex object i'll be happy with that, but will general audience watch that? We don't know that yet.

    Why wouldn't they? Does Rory Kinnear stop people watching the films?
    As I said what i am missing the most these days in any action or spy series is women from different professions as lead actresses showing their skills, doing actual work which contributes to the story.

    Yeah I'll go with that. Hopefully Swann and Nomi are both contributing professionally to this one: the trailers seem to suggest that. Fingers crossed.
    Moreover, bond series is male fantasy and not a realistic spy film's like Bourne. They need some glamour and escapism into it if they wish to attract more audience. You can take a look at female fantasy film's like twilight and Fifty Shades Trilogy, both film's have good looking ,handsome men but women are more average looking, not someone like Eva Green or Monica bellucci, and we all know the reason for that. I don't blame them for doing this. Although, there is always room for improvement.

    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.

    Rory kinnear isn't in the lead bond girls are, maybe that's why they matter.

    I'm talking about other characters though. Moneypenny isn't the lead either.
    Although I agree there is nothing wrong in being fantasy for both but it's not in my hands.
    Univex wrote: »
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    That’s true. Is there a Craig Bond film where he doesn’t show up shirtless at least once?

    SP.
    mtm wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.
    Yeah, because god forbid they do that nowadays. “Male fantasy” is the zenith of patriarchy, right? I know you didn’t say that, btw, and they’ve catered to both male and female fantasy wise in the Craig era. But there’s nothing wrong with a “male fantasy” driven adventure, imo.


    Sure.
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    Yeah it has started. Really it started with Dalton, and then weirdly went slightly backwards, making Bond into a 'dinosaur sexist', even though that had actually been phased out with Dalton (and fans didn't complain about it then: you still find folks on here rating him very highly and saying how much like Fleming's Bond he was). I don't think there's anything wrong with pressing on like that.
    I'm fine with him liking big cars and fine wines and all that, but I don't see any reason to treat women as exclusively sex objects any more. As you say, the Craig films have made some movement towards that: it's nice that Camille and Bond had a platonic relationship, but equally she was absolutely drop-dead gorgeous. Our new Moneypenny is a stunningly beautiful woman (who Bond pesters) while our new Tanner is just some average-looking guy.

    I think Dalton wasn't any different than others, he may be involved with one woman in TLD but in license to kill he return to being an old dinosaur. Even Q in license to kill mentioned about bond that "field operatives must often use every means at their disposal to achieve their objectives" when Lupe got angry that James spend last night with her as well. Timothy's bond also said to her that he can't be her secretary as "they were south of the borders and it's a man's world". There are many moments like this which shows that he was indeed Fleming bond.

    I don't know: I don't think there's much he does in LTK which shows a very different attitude to that he displays in TLD. The 'man's world' thing is more him playing by the rules of the place they're in more than his own attitudes.
    Bond in the 80s in general isn't really all that much of a terrible sexist (he does his horrible leer at the Q branch lady's cleavage in Octopussy of course)- it kind of starts to become more of a thing in the 90s and after weirdly to make him seem more out of touch with the modern world. Up until then John Glen's Bond(s) was/were slightly more of a modern man.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    It's the business I'm afraid @AstonLotus, while quotes like that may not appeal to a lot of people, and be seen as a marketing gimmick, at the same time, it boldly gets the message across to those they may have not been interested otherwise, and also while it may seem like they're not breaking new ground, I do think what they've done with these female characters (from what we've seen) has done something for a lot of people.

    A few people I think will actually see this film just because of them. Lynch being a fan favourite in Captain Marvel, and Ana de Armas just being a fan favourite in general. Seydoux and Harris have a smaller fan base but still present in people I know.

    They've definitely stepped up the Bond girls this time round. The tradition used to be one survives, one dead and one who probably will say one line, even in the Craig-era we've had that, so I think it's great to see that they've grabbed the bull by its horns with this one, and offered us three Bond girls in one film that all seem to play a vital role.

    @Denbigh I think what i am missing the most is women from different professions(we had bond girls as pilot, astronauts, computer programmer etc. doing actual work) other than being a spy or in action, vesper as an accountant and Madeline being a psychologist are the only one's we have seen in this era. It would be great if Madeline interact as a psychologist with Blofeld as we have seen in trailers, she was at mi6. Hope you get what i am saying by "doing actual work which contributes to the story".

    I think also perhaps it might be time not to treat women as sex objects. We’ve got supporting characters like M, Q, Tanner etc all played by fairly ordinary looking guys (well, they’re not ugly at all but not male models) whereas every female role is filled by some sexpot doing photo shoots in loads of magazines. Why can’t we have a few less extraordinary females if we have some ordinary males in it?

    To be honest i have no problem having good looking M, Q, Tanner as well, let ladies have some fun as well ;)
    My GF Find Ralph Fiennes really hot(at least when he was younger), Can't say much about Q or Tanner.

    That’s kind of getting what I’m saying the wrong way around! :)

    Haha i know what you are saying buddy, I am fine either way, if they bring not so good looking girl's, more professional and less as sex object i'll be happy with that, but will general audience watch that? We don't know that yet.

    Why wouldn't they? Does Rory Kinnear stop people watching the films?
    As I said what i am missing the most these days in any action or spy series is women from different professions as lead actresses showing their skills, doing actual work which contributes to the story.

    Yeah I'll go with that. Hopefully Swann and Nomi are both contributing professionally to this one: the trailers seem to suggest that. Fingers crossed.
    Moreover, bond series is male fantasy and not a realistic spy film's like Bourne. They need some glamour and escapism into it if they wish to attract more audience. You can take a look at female fantasy film's like twilight and Fifty Shades Trilogy, both film's have good looking ,handsome men but women are more average looking, not someone like Eva Green or Monica bellucci, and we all know the reason for that. I don't blame them for doing this. Although, there is always room for improvement.

    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.

    Rory kinnear isn't in the lead bond girls are, maybe that's why they matter.

    I'm talking about other characters though. Moneypenny isn't the lead either.
    Although I agree there is nothing wrong in being fantasy for both but it's not in my hands.
    Univex wrote: »
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    That’s true. Is there a Craig Bond film where he doesn’t show up shirtless at least once?

    SP.
    mtm wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.
    Yeah, because god forbid they do that nowadays. “Male fantasy” is the zenith of patriarchy, right? I know you didn’t say that, btw, and they’ve catered to both male and female fantasy wise in the Craig era. But there’s nothing wrong with a “male fantasy” driven adventure, imo.


    Sure.
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    Yeah it has started. Really it started with Dalton, and then weirdly went slightly backwards, making Bond into a 'dinosaur sexist', even though that had actually been phased out with Dalton (and fans didn't complain about it then: you still find folks on here rating him very highly and saying how much like Fleming's Bond he was). I don't think there's anything wrong with pressing on like that.
    I'm fine with him liking big cars and fine wines and all that, but I don't see any reason to treat women as exclusively sex objects any more. As you say, the Craig films have made some movement towards that: it's nice that Camille and Bond had a platonic relationship, but equally she was absolutely drop-dead gorgeous. Our new Moneypenny is a stunningly beautiful woman (who Bond pesters) while our new Tanner is just some average-looking guy.

    I think Dalton wasn't any different than others, he may be involved with one woman in TLD but in license to kill he return to being an old dinosaur. Even Q in license to kill mentioned about bond that "field operatives must often use every means at their disposal to achieve their objectives" when Lupe got angry that James spend last night with her as well. Timothy's bond also said to her that he can't be her secretary as "they were south of the borders and it's a man's world". There are many moments like this which shows that he was indeed Fleming bond.

    I don't know: I don't think there's much he does in LTK which shows a very different attitude to that he displays in TLD. The 'man's world' thing is more him playing by the rules of the place they're in more than his own attitudes.
    Bond in the 80s in general isn't really all that much of a terrible sexist (he does his horrible leer at the Q branch lady's cleavage in Octopussy of course)- it kind of starts to become more of a thing in the 90s and after weirdly to make him seem more out of touch with the modern world. Up until then John Glen's Bond(s) was/were slightly more of a modern man.

    I guess this is the point I am trying to make. To resurrect Bond being such a sexist that he would have a problem with Nomi just because she is a woman is a backwards step, and ultimately out of character. it's fine for him to be out of step - but not to the point he thinks women shouldn't be in his job. That's just inventing a character trait so you can slap it down. Poor writing.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    It's the business I'm afraid @AstonLotus, while quotes like that may not appeal to a lot of people, and be seen as a marketing gimmick, at the same time, it boldly gets the message across to those they may have not been interested otherwise, and also while it may seem like they're not breaking new ground, I do think what they've done with these female characters (from what we've seen) has done something for a lot of people.

    A few people I think will actually see this film just because of them. Lynch being a fan favourite in Captain Marvel, and Ana de Armas just being a fan favourite in general. Seydoux and Harris have a smaller fan base but still present in people I know.

    They've definitely stepped up the Bond girls this time round. The tradition used to be one survives, one dead and one who probably will say one line, even in the Craig-era we've had that, so I think it's great to see that they've grabbed the bull by its horns with this one, and offered us three Bond girls in one film that all seem to play a vital role.

    @Denbigh I think what i am missing the most is women from different professions(we had bond girls as pilot, astronauts, computer programmer etc. doing actual work) other than being a spy or in action, vesper as an accountant and Madeline being a psychologist are the only one's we have seen in this era. It would be great if Madeline interact as a psychologist with Blofeld as we have seen in trailers, she was at mi6. Hope you get what i am saying by "doing actual work which contributes to the story".

    I think also perhaps it might be time not to treat women as sex objects. We’ve got supporting characters like M, Q, Tanner etc all played by fairly ordinary looking guys (well, they’re not ugly at all but not male models) whereas every female role is filled by some sexpot doing photo shoots in loads of magazines. Why can’t we have a few less extraordinary females if we have some ordinary males in it?

    To be honest i have no problem having good looking M, Q, Tanner as well, let ladies have some fun as well ;)
    My GF Find Ralph Fiennes really hot(at least when he was younger), Can't say much about Q or Tanner.

    That’s kind of getting what I’m saying the wrong way around! :)

    Haha i know what you are saying buddy, I am fine either way, if they bring not so good looking girl's, more professional and less as sex object i'll be happy with that, but will general audience watch that? We don't know that yet.

    Why wouldn't they? Does Rory Kinnear stop people watching the films?
    As I said what i am missing the most these days in any action or spy series is women from different professions as lead actresses showing their skills, doing actual work which contributes to the story.

    Yeah I'll go with that. Hopefully Swann and Nomi are both contributing professionally to this one: the trailers seem to suggest that. Fingers crossed.
    Moreover, bond series is male fantasy and not a realistic spy film's like Bourne. They need some glamour and escapism into it if they wish to attract more audience. You can take a look at female fantasy film's like twilight and Fifty Shades Trilogy, both film's have good looking ,handsome men but women are more average looking, not someone like Eva Green or Monica bellucci, and we all know the reason for that. I don't blame them for doing this. Although, there is always room for improvement.

    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.

    Rory kinnear isn't in the lead bond girls are, maybe that's why they matter.

    I'm talking about other characters though. Moneypenny isn't the lead either.
    Although I agree there is nothing wrong in being fantasy for both but it's not in my hands.
    Univex wrote: »
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    That’s true. Is there a Craig Bond film where he doesn’t show up shirtless at least once?

    SP.
    mtm wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.
    Yeah, because god forbid they do that nowadays. “Male fantasy” is the zenith of patriarchy, right? I know you didn’t say that, btw, and they’ve catered to both male and female fantasy wise in the Craig era. But there’s nothing wrong with a “male fantasy” driven adventure, imo.


    Sure.
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    Yeah it has started. Really it started with Dalton, and then weirdly went slightly backwards, making Bond into a 'dinosaur sexist', even though that had actually been phased out with Dalton (and fans didn't complain about it then: you still find folks on here rating him very highly and saying how much like Fleming's Bond he was). I don't think there's anything wrong with pressing on like that.
    I'm fine with him liking big cars and fine wines and all that, but I don't see any reason to treat women as exclusively sex objects any more. As you say, the Craig films have made some movement towards that: it's nice that Camille and Bond had a platonic relationship, but equally she was absolutely drop-dead gorgeous. Our new Moneypenny is a stunningly beautiful woman (who Bond pesters) while our new Tanner is just some average-looking guy.

    I think Dalton wasn't any different than others, he may be involved with one woman in TLD but in license to kill he return to being an old dinosaur. Even Q in license to kill mentioned about bond that "field operatives must often use every means at their disposal to achieve their objectives" when Lupe got angry that James spend last night with her as well. Timothy's bond also said to her that he can't be her secretary as "they were south of the borders and it's a man's world". There are many moments like this which shows that he was indeed Fleming bond.

    I don't know: I don't think there's much he does in LTK which shows a very different attitude to that he displays in TLD. The 'man's world' thing is more him playing by the rules of the place they're in more than his own attitudes.
    Bond in the 80s in general isn't really all that much of a terrible sexist (he does his horrible leer at the Q branch lady's cleavage in Octopussy of course)- it kind of starts to become more of a thing in the 90s and after weirdly to make him seem more out of touch with the modern world. Up until then John Glen's Bond(s) was/were slightly more of a modern man.

    Moneypenny is actually the lead, she has appeared in almost every single bond film except two or three if i remember correctly. Bond/M/MP/Q/Villian/Henchmen/Lead actress/ Supporting Actress/ - bond film's have always been like this.

    About LTK, the point that you mentioned that "he was played by the rules of the place" can actually happened today as well but that didn't stopped bond from doing it and he was laughing when he said that. I can give you many examples like this being a Dalton fan. He play very different character in LTK than TLD, as it was a revenge story as well, something QOS tried doing it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2020 Posts: 16,421
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    It's the business I'm afraid @AstonLotus, while quotes like that may not appeal to a lot of people, and be seen as a marketing gimmick, at the same time, it boldly gets the message across to those they may have not been interested otherwise, and also while it may seem like they're not breaking new ground, I do think what they've done with these female characters (from what we've seen) has done something for a lot of people.

    A few people I think will actually see this film just because of them. Lynch being a fan favourite in Captain Marvel, and Ana de Armas just being a fan favourite in general. Seydoux and Harris have a smaller fan base but still present in people I know.

    They've definitely stepped up the Bond girls this time round. The tradition used to be one survives, one dead and one who probably will say one line, even in the Craig-era we've had that, so I think it's great to see that they've grabbed the bull by its horns with this one, and offered us three Bond girls in one film that all seem to play a vital role.

    @Denbigh I think what i am missing the most is women from different professions(we had bond girls as pilot, astronauts, computer programmer etc. doing actual work) other than being a spy or in action, vesper as an accountant and Madeline being a psychologist are the only one's we have seen in this era. It would be great if Madeline interact as a psychologist with Blofeld as we have seen in trailers, she was at mi6. Hope you get what i am saying by "doing actual work which contributes to the story".

    I think also perhaps it might be time not to treat women as sex objects. We’ve got supporting characters like M, Q, Tanner etc all played by fairly ordinary looking guys (well, they’re not ugly at all but not male models) whereas every female role is filled by some sexpot doing photo shoots in loads of magazines. Why can’t we have a few less extraordinary females if we have some ordinary males in it?

    To be honest i have no problem having good looking M, Q, Tanner as well, let ladies have some fun as well ;)
    My GF Find Ralph Fiennes really hot(at least when he was younger), Can't say much about Q or Tanner.

    That’s kind of getting what I’m saying the wrong way around! :)

    Haha i know what you are saying buddy, I am fine either way, if they bring not so good looking girl's, more professional and less as sex object i'll be happy with that, but will general audience watch that? We don't know that yet.

    Why wouldn't they? Does Rory Kinnear stop people watching the films?
    As I said what i am missing the most these days in any action or spy series is women from different professions as lead actresses showing their skills, doing actual work which contributes to the story.

    Yeah I'll go with that. Hopefully Swann and Nomi are both contributing professionally to this one: the trailers seem to suggest that. Fingers crossed.
    Moreover, bond series is male fantasy and not a realistic spy film's like Bourne. They need some glamour and escapism into it if they wish to attract more audience. You can take a look at female fantasy film's like twilight and Fifty Shades Trilogy, both film's have good looking ,handsome men but women are more average looking, not someone like Eva Green or Monica bellucci, and we all know the reason for that. I don't blame them for doing this. Although, there is always room for improvement.

    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.

    Rory kinnear isn't in the lead bond girls are, maybe that's why they matter.

    I'm talking about other characters though. Moneypenny isn't the lead either.
    Although I agree there is nothing wrong in being fantasy for both but it's not in my hands.
    Univex wrote: »
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    That’s true. Is there a Craig Bond film where he doesn’t show up shirtless at least once?

    SP.
    mtm wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.
    Yeah, because god forbid they do that nowadays. “Male fantasy” is the zenith of patriarchy, right? I know you didn’t say that, btw, and they’ve catered to both male and female fantasy wise in the Craig era. But there’s nothing wrong with a “male fantasy” driven adventure, imo.


    Sure.
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    Yeah it has started. Really it started with Dalton, and then weirdly went slightly backwards, making Bond into a 'dinosaur sexist', even though that had actually been phased out with Dalton (and fans didn't complain about it then: you still find folks on here rating him very highly and saying how much like Fleming's Bond he was). I don't think there's anything wrong with pressing on like that.
    I'm fine with him liking big cars and fine wines and all that, but I don't see any reason to treat women as exclusively sex objects any more. As you say, the Craig films have made some movement towards that: it's nice that Camille and Bond had a platonic relationship, but equally she was absolutely drop-dead gorgeous. Our new Moneypenny is a stunningly beautiful woman (who Bond pesters) while our new Tanner is just some average-looking guy.

    I think Dalton wasn't any different than others, he may be involved with one woman in TLD but in license to kill he return to being an old dinosaur. Even Q in license to kill mentioned about bond that "field operatives must often use every means at their disposal to achieve their objectives" when Lupe got angry that James spend last night with her as well. Timothy's bond also said to her that he can't be her secretary as "they were south of the borders and it's a man's world". There are many moments like this which shows that he was indeed Fleming bond.

    I don't know: I don't think there's much he does in LTK which shows a very different attitude to that he displays in TLD. The 'man's world' thing is more him playing by the rules of the place they're in more than his own attitudes.
    Bond in the 80s in general isn't really all that much of a terrible sexist (he does his horrible leer at the Q branch lady's cleavage in Octopussy of course)- it kind of starts to become more of a thing in the 90s and after weirdly to make him seem more out of touch with the modern world. Up until then John Glen's Bond(s) was/were slightly more of a modern man.

    I guess this is the point I am trying to make. To resurrect Bond being such a sexist that he would have a problem with Nomi just because she is a woman is a backwards step, and ultimately out of character. it's fine for him to be out of step - but not to the point he thinks women shouldn't be in his job. That's just inventing a character trait so you can slap it down. Poor writing.

    The backwards step was taken in GoldenEye. The reaction you're talking about would be entirely consistent with the character we've seen for the last 25 years, and especially the last 15. Good writing.
    You can't honestly think that the writers of Daniel Craig's fifth Bond film should have suddenly started writing it about Timothy Dalton's Bond from 30 years ago?

    I don't think his reaction would be that he thinks a woman shouldn't have his job, but just surprise that he has been replaced by one, shaking his faith in his own ego just that little bit more. I think you're reacting to something we haven't actually seen as confirmed as happening yet.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    It's the business I'm afraid @AstonLotus, while quotes like that may not appeal to a lot of people, and be seen as a marketing gimmick, at the same time, it boldly gets the message across to those they may have not been interested otherwise, and also while it may seem like they're not breaking new ground, I do think what they've done with these female characters (from what we've seen) has done something for a lot of people.

    A few people I think will actually see this film just because of them. Lynch being a fan favourite in Captain Marvel, and Ana de Armas just being a fan favourite in general. Seydoux and Harris have a smaller fan base but still present in people I know.

    They've definitely stepped up the Bond girls this time round. The tradition used to be one survives, one dead and one who probably will say one line, even in the Craig-era we've had that, so I think it's great to see that they've grabbed the bull by its horns with this one, and offered us three Bond girls in one film that all seem to play a vital role.

    @Denbigh I think what i am missing the most is women from different professions(we had bond girls as pilot, astronauts, computer programmer etc. doing actual work) other than being a spy or in action, vesper as an accountant and Madeline being a psychologist are the only one's we have seen in this era. It would be great if Madeline interact as a psychologist with Blofeld as we have seen in trailers, she was at mi6. Hope you get what i am saying by "doing actual work which contributes to the story".

    I think also perhaps it might be time not to treat women as sex objects. We’ve got supporting characters like M, Q, Tanner etc all played by fairly ordinary looking guys (well, they’re not ugly at all but not male models) whereas every female role is filled by some sexpot doing photo shoots in loads of magazines. Why can’t we have a few less extraordinary females if we have some ordinary males in it?

    To be honest i have no problem having good looking M, Q, Tanner as well, let ladies have some fun as well ;)
    My GF Find Ralph Fiennes really hot(at least when he was younger), Can't say much about Q or Tanner.

    That’s kind of getting what I’m saying the wrong way around! :)

    Haha i know what you are saying buddy, I am fine either way, if they bring not so good looking girl's, more professional and less as sex object i'll be happy with that, but will general audience watch that? We don't know that yet.

    Why wouldn't they? Does Rory Kinnear stop people watching the films?
    As I said what i am missing the most these days in any action or spy series is women from different professions as lead actresses showing their skills, doing actual work which contributes to the story.

    Yeah I'll go with that. Hopefully Swann and Nomi are both contributing professionally to this one: the trailers seem to suggest that. Fingers crossed.
    Moreover, bond series is male fantasy and not a realistic spy film's like Bourne. They need some glamour and escapism into it if they wish to attract more audience. You can take a look at female fantasy film's like twilight and Fifty Shades Trilogy, both film's have good looking ,handsome men but women are more average looking, not someone like Eva Green or Monica bellucci, and we all know the reason for that. I don't blame them for doing this. Although, there is always room for improvement.

    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.

    Rory kinnear isn't in the lead bond girls are, maybe that's why they matter.

    I'm talking about other characters though. Moneypenny isn't the lead either.
    Although I agree there is nothing wrong in being fantasy for both but it's not in my hands.
    Univex wrote: »
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    That’s true. Is there a Craig Bond film where he doesn’t show up shirtless at least once?

    SP.
    mtm wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.
    Yeah, because god forbid they do that nowadays. “Male fantasy” is the zenith of patriarchy, right? I know you didn’t say that, btw, and they’ve catered to both male and female fantasy wise in the Craig era. But there’s nothing wrong with a “male fantasy” driven adventure, imo.


    Sure.
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    Yeah it has started. Really it started with Dalton, and then weirdly went slightly backwards, making Bond into a 'dinosaur sexist', even though that had actually been phased out with Dalton (and fans didn't complain about it then: you still find folks on here rating him very highly and saying how much like Fleming's Bond he was). I don't think there's anything wrong with pressing on like that.
    I'm fine with him liking big cars and fine wines and all that, but I don't see any reason to treat women as exclusively sex objects any more. As you say, the Craig films have made some movement towards that: it's nice that Camille and Bond had a platonic relationship, but equally she was absolutely drop-dead gorgeous. Our new Moneypenny is a stunningly beautiful woman (who Bond pesters) while our new Tanner is just some average-looking guy.

    I think Dalton wasn't any different than others, he may be involved with one woman in TLD but in license to kill he return to being an old dinosaur. Even Q in license to kill mentioned about bond that "field operatives must often use every means at their disposal to achieve their objectives" when Lupe got angry that James spend last night with her as well. Timothy's bond also said to her that he can't be her secretary as "they were south of the borders and it's a man's world". There are many moments like this which shows that he was indeed Fleming bond.

    I don't know: I don't think there's much he does in LTK which shows a very different attitude to that he displays in TLD. The 'man's world' thing is more him playing by the rules of the place they're in more than his own attitudes.
    Bond in the 80s in general isn't really all that much of a terrible sexist (he does his horrible leer at the Q branch lady's cleavage in Octopussy of course)- it kind of starts to become more of a thing in the 90s and after weirdly to make him seem more out of touch with the modern world. Up until then John Glen's Bond(s) was/were slightly more of a modern man.

    I guess this is the point I am trying to make. To resurrect Bond being such a sexist that he would have a problem with Nomi just because she is a woman is a backwards step, and ultimately out of character. it's fine for him to be out of step - but not to the point he thinks women shouldn't be in his job. That's just inventing a character trait so you can slap it down. Poor writing.

    The backwards step was taken in GoldenEye. The reaction you're talking about would be entirely consistent with the character we've seen for the last 25 years, and especially the last 15. Good writing.
    You can't honestly think that the writers of Daniel Craig's fifth Bond film should have suddenly started writing it about Timothy Dalton's Bond from 30 years ago?

    I don't think his reaction would be that he thinks a woman shouldn't have his job, but just surprise that he has been replaced by one, shaking his faith in his own ego just that little bit more. I think you're reacting to something we haven't actually seen as confirmed as happening yet.
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    It's the business I'm afraid @AstonLotus, while quotes like that may not appeal to a lot of people, and be seen as a marketing gimmick, at the same time, it boldly gets the message across to those they may have not been interested otherwise, and also while it may seem like they're not breaking new ground, I do think what they've done with these female characters (from what we've seen) has done something for a lot of people.

    A few people I think will actually see this film just because of them. Lynch being a fan favourite in Captain Marvel, and Ana de Armas just being a fan favourite in general. Seydoux and Harris have a smaller fan base but still present in people I know.

    They've definitely stepped up the Bond girls this time round. The tradition used to be one survives, one dead and one who probably will say one line, even in the Craig-era we've had that, so I think it's great to see that they've grabbed the bull by its horns with this one, and offered us three Bond girls in one film that all seem to play a vital role.

    @Denbigh I think what i am missing the most is women from different professions(we had bond girls as pilot, astronauts, computer programmer etc. doing actual work) other than being a spy or in action, vesper as an accountant and Madeline being a psychologist are the only one's we have seen in this era. It would be great if Madeline interact as a psychologist with Blofeld as we have seen in trailers, she was at mi6. Hope you get what i am saying by "doing actual work which contributes to the story".

    I think also perhaps it might be time not to treat women as sex objects. We’ve got supporting characters like M, Q, Tanner etc all played by fairly ordinary looking guys (well, they’re not ugly at all but not male models) whereas every female role is filled by some sexpot doing photo shoots in loads of magazines. Why can’t we have a few less extraordinary females if we have some ordinary males in it?

    To be honest i have no problem having good looking M, Q, Tanner as well, let ladies have some fun as well ;)
    My GF Find Ralph Fiennes really hot(at least when he was younger), Can't say much about Q or Tanner.

    That’s kind of getting what I’m saying the wrong way around! :)

    Haha i know what you are saying buddy, I am fine either way, if they bring not so good looking girl's, more professional and less as sex object i'll be happy with that, but will general audience watch that? We don't know that yet.

    Why wouldn't they? Does Rory Kinnear stop people watching the films?
    As I said what i am missing the most these days in any action or spy series is women from different professions as lead actresses showing their skills, doing actual work which contributes to the story.

    Yeah I'll go with that. Hopefully Swann and Nomi are both contributing professionally to this one: the trailers seem to suggest that. Fingers crossed.
    Moreover, bond series is male fantasy and not a realistic spy film's like Bourne. They need some glamour and escapism into it if they wish to attract more audience. You can take a look at female fantasy film's like twilight and Fifty Shades Trilogy, both film's have good looking ,handsome men but women are more average looking, not someone like Eva Green or Monica bellucci, and we all know the reason for that. I don't blame them for doing this. Although, there is always room for improvement.

    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.

    Rory kinnear isn't in the lead bond girls are, maybe that's why they matter.

    I'm talking about other characters though. Moneypenny isn't the lead either.
    Although I agree there is nothing wrong in being fantasy for both but it's not in my hands.
    Univex wrote: »
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    That’s true. Is there a Craig Bond film where he doesn’t show up shirtless at least once?

    SP.
    mtm wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.
    Yeah, because god forbid they do that nowadays. “Male fantasy” is the zenith of patriarchy, right? I know you didn’t say that, btw, and they’ve catered to both male and female fantasy wise in the Craig era. But there’s nothing wrong with a “male fantasy” driven adventure, imo.


    Sure.
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    Yeah it has started. Really it started with Dalton, and then weirdly went slightly backwards, making Bond into a 'dinosaur sexist', even though that had actually been phased out with Dalton (and fans didn't complain about it then: you still find folks on here rating him very highly and saying how much like Fleming's Bond he was). I don't think there's anything wrong with pressing on like that.
    I'm fine with him liking big cars and fine wines and all that, but I don't see any reason to treat women as exclusively sex objects any more. As you say, the Craig films have made some movement towards that: it's nice that Camille and Bond had a platonic relationship, but equally she was absolutely drop-dead gorgeous. Our new Moneypenny is a stunningly beautiful woman (who Bond pesters) while our new Tanner is just some average-looking guy.

    I think Dalton wasn't any different than others, he may be involved with one woman in TLD but in license to kill he return to being an old dinosaur. Even Q in license to kill mentioned about bond that "field operatives must often use every means at their disposal to achieve their objectives" when Lupe got angry that James spend last night with her as well. Timothy's bond also said to her that he can't be her secretary as "they were south of the borders and it's a man's world". There are many moments like this which shows that he was indeed Fleming bond.

    I don't know: I don't think there's much he does in LTK which shows a very different attitude to that he displays in TLD. The 'man's world' thing is more him playing by the rules of the place they're in more than his own attitudes.
    Bond in the 80s in general isn't really all that much of a terrible sexist (he does his horrible leer at the Q branch lady's cleavage in Octopussy of course)- it kind of starts to become more of a thing in the 90s and after weirdly to make him seem more out of touch with the modern world. Up until then John Glen's Bond(s) was/were slightly more of a modern man.

    I guess this is the point I am trying to make. To resurrect Bond being such a sexist that he would have a problem with Nomi just because she is a woman is a backwards step, and ultimately out of character. it's fine for him to be out of step - but not to the point he thinks women shouldn't be in his job. That's just inventing a character trait so you can slap it down. Poor writing.

    The backwards step was taken in GoldenEye. The reaction you're talking about would be entirely consistent with the character we've seen for the last 25 years, and especially the last 15. Good writing.
    You can't honestly think that the writers of Daniel Craig's fifth Bond film should have suddenly started writing it about Timothy Dalton's Bond from 30 years ago?

    I don't think his reaction would be that he thinks a woman shouldn't have his job, but just surprise that he has been replaced by one, shaking his faith in his own ego just that little bit more. I think you're reacting to something we haven't actually seen as confirmed as happening yet.

    I admitted I was reacting to something not confirmed in my first post. But since it's not out there's not much else we can do.

    I completely disagree with your analysis of the character regarding women and ego.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2020 Posts: 16,421
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    It's the business I'm afraid @AstonLotus, while quotes like that may not appeal to a lot of people, and be seen as a marketing gimmick, at the same time, it boldly gets the message across to those they may have not been interested otherwise, and also while it may seem like they're not breaking new ground, I do think what they've done with these female characters (from what we've seen) has done something for a lot of people.

    A few people I think will actually see this film just because of them. Lynch being a fan favourite in Captain Marvel, and Ana de Armas just being a fan favourite in general. Seydoux and Harris have a smaller fan base but still present in people I know.

    They've definitely stepped up the Bond girls this time round. The tradition used to be one survives, one dead and one who probably will say one line, even in the Craig-era we've had that, so I think it's great to see that they've grabbed the bull by its horns with this one, and offered us three Bond girls in one film that all seem to play a vital role.

    @Denbigh I think what i am missing the most is women from different professions(we had bond girls as pilot, astronauts, computer programmer etc. doing actual work) other than being a spy or in action, vesper as an accountant and Madeline being a psychologist are the only one's we have seen in this era. It would be great if Madeline interact as a psychologist with Blofeld as we have seen in trailers, she was at mi6. Hope you get what i am saying by "doing actual work which contributes to the story".

    I think also perhaps it might be time not to treat women as sex objects. We’ve got supporting characters like M, Q, Tanner etc all played by fairly ordinary looking guys (well, they’re not ugly at all but not male models) whereas every female role is filled by some sexpot doing photo shoots in loads of magazines. Why can’t we have a few less extraordinary females if we have some ordinary males in it?

    To be honest i have no problem having good looking M, Q, Tanner as well, let ladies have some fun as well ;)
    My GF Find Ralph Fiennes really hot(at least when he was younger), Can't say much about Q or Tanner.

    That’s kind of getting what I’m saying the wrong way around! :)

    Haha i know what you are saying buddy, I am fine either way, if they bring not so good looking girl's, more professional and less as sex object i'll be happy with that, but will general audience watch that? We don't know that yet.

    Why wouldn't they? Does Rory Kinnear stop people watching the films?
    As I said what i am missing the most these days in any action or spy series is women from different professions as lead actresses showing their skills, doing actual work which contributes to the story.

    Yeah I'll go with that. Hopefully Swann and Nomi are both contributing professionally to this one: the trailers seem to suggest that. Fingers crossed.
    Moreover, bond series is male fantasy and not a realistic spy film's like Bourne. They need some glamour and escapism into it if they wish to attract more audience. You can take a look at female fantasy film's like twilight and Fifty Shades Trilogy, both film's have good looking ,handsome men but women are more average looking, not someone like Eva Green or Monica bellucci, and we all know the reason for that. I don't blame them for doing this. Although, there is always room for improvement.

    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.

    Rory kinnear isn't in the lead bond girls are, maybe that's why they matter.

    I'm talking about other characters though. Moneypenny isn't the lead either.
    Although I agree there is nothing wrong in being fantasy for both but it's not in my hands.
    Univex wrote: »
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    That’s true. Is there a Craig Bond film where he doesn’t show up shirtless at least once?

    SP.
    mtm wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.
    Yeah, because god forbid they do that nowadays. “Male fantasy” is the zenith of patriarchy, right? I know you didn’t say that, btw, and they’ve catered to both male and female fantasy wise in the Craig era. But there’s nothing wrong with a “male fantasy” driven adventure, imo.


    Sure.
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    Yeah it has started. Really it started with Dalton, and then weirdly went slightly backwards, making Bond into a 'dinosaur sexist', even though that had actually been phased out with Dalton (and fans didn't complain about it then: you still find folks on here rating him very highly and saying how much like Fleming's Bond he was). I don't think there's anything wrong with pressing on like that.
    I'm fine with him liking big cars and fine wines and all that, but I don't see any reason to treat women as exclusively sex objects any more. As you say, the Craig films have made some movement towards that: it's nice that Camille and Bond had a platonic relationship, but equally she was absolutely drop-dead gorgeous. Our new Moneypenny is a stunningly beautiful woman (who Bond pesters) while our new Tanner is just some average-looking guy.

    I think Dalton wasn't any different than others, he may be involved with one woman in TLD but in license to kill he return to being an old dinosaur. Even Q in license to kill mentioned about bond that "field operatives must often use every means at their disposal to achieve their objectives" when Lupe got angry that James spend last night with her as well. Timothy's bond also said to her that he can't be her secretary as "they were south of the borders and it's a man's world". There are many moments like this which shows that he was indeed Fleming bond.

    I don't know: I don't think there's much he does in LTK which shows a very different attitude to that he displays in TLD. The 'man's world' thing is more him playing by the rules of the place they're in more than his own attitudes.
    Bond in the 80s in general isn't really all that much of a terrible sexist (he does his horrible leer at the Q branch lady's cleavage in Octopussy of course)- it kind of starts to become more of a thing in the 90s and after weirdly to make him seem more out of touch with the modern world. Up until then John Glen's Bond(s) was/were slightly more of a modern man.

    I guess this is the point I am trying to make. To resurrect Bond being such a sexist that he would have a problem with Nomi just because she is a woman is a backwards step, and ultimately out of character. it's fine for him to be out of step - but not to the point he thinks women shouldn't be in his job. That's just inventing a character trait so you can slap it down. Poor writing.

    The backwards step was taken in GoldenEye. The reaction you're talking about would be entirely consistent with the character we've seen for the last 25 years, and especially the last 15. Good writing.
    You can't honestly think that the writers of Daniel Craig's fifth Bond film should have suddenly started writing it about Timothy Dalton's Bond from 30 years ago?

    I don't think his reaction would be that he thinks a woman shouldn't have his job, but just surprise that he has been replaced by one, shaking his faith in his own ego just that little bit more. I think you're reacting to something we haven't actually seen as confirmed as happening yet.
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    It's the business I'm afraid @AstonLotus, while quotes like that may not appeal to a lot of people, and be seen as a marketing gimmick, at the same time, it boldly gets the message across to those they may have not been interested otherwise, and also while it may seem like they're not breaking new ground, I do think what they've done with these female characters (from what we've seen) has done something for a lot of people.

    A few people I think will actually see this film just because of them. Lynch being a fan favourite in Captain Marvel, and Ana de Armas just being a fan favourite in general. Seydoux and Harris have a smaller fan base but still present in people I know.

    They've definitely stepped up the Bond girls this time round. The tradition used to be one survives, one dead and one who probably will say one line, even in the Craig-era we've had that, so I think it's great to see that they've grabbed the bull by its horns with this one, and offered us three Bond girls in one film that all seem to play a vital role.

    @Denbigh I think what i am missing the most is women from different professions(we had bond girls as pilot, astronauts, computer programmer etc. doing actual work) other than being a spy or in action, vesper as an accountant and Madeline being a psychologist are the only one's we have seen in this era. It would be great if Madeline interact as a psychologist with Blofeld as we have seen in trailers, she was at mi6. Hope you get what i am saying by "doing actual work which contributes to the story".

    I think also perhaps it might be time not to treat women as sex objects. We’ve got supporting characters like M, Q, Tanner etc all played by fairly ordinary looking guys (well, they’re not ugly at all but not male models) whereas every female role is filled by some sexpot doing photo shoots in loads of magazines. Why can’t we have a few less extraordinary females if we have some ordinary males in it?

    To be honest i have no problem having good looking M, Q, Tanner as well, let ladies have some fun as well ;)
    My GF Find Ralph Fiennes really hot(at least when he was younger), Can't say much about Q or Tanner.

    That’s kind of getting what I’m saying the wrong way around! :)

    Haha i know what you are saying buddy, I am fine either way, if they bring not so good looking girl's, more professional and less as sex object i'll be happy with that, but will general audience watch that? We don't know that yet.

    Why wouldn't they? Does Rory Kinnear stop people watching the films?
    As I said what i am missing the most these days in any action or spy series is women from different professions as lead actresses showing their skills, doing actual work which contributes to the story.

    Yeah I'll go with that. Hopefully Swann and Nomi are both contributing professionally to this one: the trailers seem to suggest that. Fingers crossed.
    Moreover, bond series is male fantasy and not a realistic spy film's like Bourne. They need some glamour and escapism into it if they wish to attract more audience. You can take a look at female fantasy film's like twilight and Fifty Shades Trilogy, both film's have good looking ,handsome men but women are more average looking, not someone like Eva Green or Monica bellucci, and we all know the reason for that. I don't blame them for doing this. Although, there is always room for improvement.

    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.

    Rory kinnear isn't in the lead bond girls are, maybe that's why they matter.

    I'm talking about other characters though. Moneypenny isn't the lead either.
    Although I agree there is nothing wrong in being fantasy for both but it's not in my hands.
    Univex wrote: »
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    That’s true. Is there a Craig Bond film where he doesn’t show up shirtless at least once?

    SP.
    mtm wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think it should be fantasy and not 'male' fantasy. There's no reason for it to stay that.
    Yeah, because god forbid they do that nowadays. “Male fantasy” is the zenith of patriarchy, right? I know you didn’t say that, btw, and they’ve catered to both male and female fantasy wise in the Craig era. But there’s nothing wrong with a “male fantasy” driven adventure, imo.


    Sure.
    The Craig era hasn't really been a male-driven fantasy adventure. The line has been blurred quite a bit already in that regard.

    Yeah it has started. Really it started with Dalton, and then weirdly went slightly backwards, making Bond into a 'dinosaur sexist', even though that had actually been phased out with Dalton (and fans didn't complain about it then: you still find folks on here rating him very highly and saying how much like Fleming's Bond he was). I don't think there's anything wrong with pressing on like that.
    I'm fine with him liking big cars and fine wines and all that, but I don't see any reason to treat women as exclusively sex objects any more. As you say, the Craig films have made some movement towards that: it's nice that Camille and Bond had a platonic relationship, but equally she was absolutely drop-dead gorgeous. Our new Moneypenny is a stunningly beautiful woman (who Bond pesters) while our new Tanner is just some average-looking guy.

    I think Dalton wasn't any different than others, he may be involved with one woman in TLD but in license to kill he return to being an old dinosaur. Even Q in license to kill mentioned about bond that "field operatives must often use every means at their disposal to achieve their objectives" when Lupe got angry that James spend last night with her as well. Timothy's bond also said to her that he can't be her secretary as "they were south of the borders and it's a man's world". There are many moments like this which shows that he was indeed Fleming bond.

    I don't know: I don't think there's much he does in LTK which shows a very different attitude to that he displays in TLD. The 'man's world' thing is more him playing by the rules of the place they're in more than his own attitudes.
    Bond in the 80s in general isn't really all that much of a terrible sexist (he does his horrible leer at the Q branch lady's cleavage in Octopussy of course)- it kind of starts to become more of a thing in the 90s and after weirdly to make him seem more out of touch with the modern world. Up until then John Glen's Bond(s) was/were slightly more of a modern man.

    I guess this is the point I am trying to make. To resurrect Bond being such a sexist that he would have a problem with Nomi just because she is a woman is a backwards step, and ultimately out of character. it's fine for him to be out of step - but not to the point he thinks women shouldn't be in his job. That's just inventing a character trait so you can slap it down. Poor writing.

    The backwards step was taken in GoldenEye. The reaction you're talking about would be entirely consistent with the character we've seen for the last 25 years, and especially the last 15. Good writing.
    You can't honestly think that the writers of Daniel Craig's fifth Bond film should have suddenly started writing it about Timothy Dalton's Bond from 30 years ago?

    I don't think his reaction would be that he thinks a woman shouldn't have his job, but just surprise that he has been replaced by one, shaking his faith in his own ego just that little bit more. I think you're reacting to something we haven't actually seen as confirmed as happening yet.

    I admitted I was reacting to something not confirmed in my first post. But since it's not out there's not much else we can do.

    I completely disagree with your analysis of the character regarding women and ego.

    In what way? I would say he clearly does have a massive ego, even though you said he has none.
    I would say that he would be shaken by being replaced by that which he's had less respect for over the years. You're suggesting that he'd be of the attitude that a woman shouldn't have that job, but I don't think he would think that way or the filmmakers would have him think that way. He doesn't see women as incapable. But he does see women as objects in some way to be made available for him or to be used by him; to find one in exactly the same level of power as he held would shake that feeling somewhat and he'd find the basis of his power undermined. The power dynamic he's always used would be reversed on him.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    I have explained about what ego means in relation to stoicism, and that Bond epitomises a lack of ego and the ideals of the stoics, which is what helps him in his job. Your understanding of what ego means I believe is incorrect. Hence why you think he has a big ego when he doesn't.

    If Craig's Bond is rattled by a woman replacing him then he is a whiny little toad who quite frankly isn't worthy of his status.

    Anyway, we have different view on the subject so I am leaving it at that.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited July 2020 Posts: 5,970
    [removed]
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2020 Posts: 16,421
    I have explained about what ego means in relation to stoicism, and that Bond epitomises a lack of ego and the ideals of the stoics, which is what helps him in his job. Your understanding of what ego means I believe is incorrect. Hence why you think he has a big ego when he doesn't.

    I don't know what to say, really. Have you read the dictionary definition of ego and egotism?

    Here's a quick bit from this article:
    "Egotism is defined as the drive to maintain and enhance favorable views of oneself, and generally features an inflated opinion of one's personal features and importance. It often includes intellectual, physical, social and other overestimations"

    That's Bond. He thinks he's amazing, capable of seducing any woman etc. That frequently the films actually show him to be correct in that thought(!) doesn't make him any less egotistical. The Craig films changed this slightly by showing him to fallible and his egotism to be occasionally misplaced, which happened to a much rarer degree previously. But by the standard definitions of egotism, he's certainly an egotistical character. I'm afraid your definition is incorrect.
    If Craig's Bond is rattled by a woman replacing him then he is a whiny little toad who quite frankly isn't worthy of his status.

    Well, no. He's just a flawed man. I think if you're not open to the idea of Bond being a flawed and imperfect character who we're supposed to find a bit of a dick at times then I'm surprised you're a fan of these films. When Bond says "A woman?" when he meets Dr Goodhead we're supposed to think he's an arse.
    Anyway, we have different view on the subject so I am leaving it at that.

    If you like. I think if you're only able to give examples of how all of these films have got the character wrong over the years, then perhaps it's worth considering that that's just the character they've been portraying and you're refusing that for some reason.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    edited July 2020 Posts: 737
    mtm wrote: »
    I have explained about what ego means in relation to stoicism, and that Bond epitomises a lack of ego and the ideals of the stoics, which is what helps him in his job. Your understanding of what ego means I believe is incorrect. Hence why you think he has a big ego when he doesn't.

    I don't know what to say, really. Have you read the dictionary definition of ego and egotism?

    Here's a quick bit from this article:
    "Egotism is defined as the drive to maintain and enhance favorable views of oneself, and generally features an inflated opinion of one's personal features and importance. It often includes intellectual, physical, social and other overestimations"

    That's Bond. He thinks he's amazing. That frequently the films actually show him to be correct in that thought(!) doesn't make him any less egotistical. The Craig films changed this slightly by showing him to fallible and his egotism to be occasionally misplaced, which happened to a much rarer degree previously. But by the standard definitions of egotism, he's certainly an egotistical character. I'm afraid your definition is incorrect.
    If Craig's Bond is rattled by a woman replacing him then he is a whiny little toad who quite frankly isn't worthy of his status.

    Well, no. He's just a flawed man. I think if you're not open to the idea of Bond being a flawed and imperfect character who we're supposed to find a bit of a dick at times then I'm surprised you're a fan of these films. When Bond says "A woman?" when he meets Dr Goodhead we're supposed to think he's an arse.
    Anyway, we have different view on the subject so I am leaving it at that.

    If you like. I think if you're only able to give examples of how all of these films have got the character wrong over the years, then perhaps it's worth considering that that's just the character they've been portraying and you're refusing that for some reason.

    James Bond doesn't get hurt when people insult him or when women are secret agents. End of story.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2020 Posts: 16,421
    mtm wrote: »
    I have explained about what ego means in relation to stoicism, and that Bond epitomises a lack of ego and the ideals of the stoics, which is what helps him in his job. Your understanding of what ego means I believe is incorrect. Hence why you think he has a big ego when he doesn't.

    I don't know what to say, really. Have you read the dictionary definition of ego and egotism?

    Here's a quick bit from this article:
    "Egotism is defined as the drive to maintain and enhance favorable views of oneself, and generally features an inflated opinion of one's personal features and importance. It often includes intellectual, physical, social and other overestimations"

    That's Bond. He thinks he's amazing. That frequently the films actually show him to be correct in that thought(!) doesn't make him any less egotistical. The Craig films changed this slightly by showing him to fallible and his egotism to be occasionally misplaced, which happened to a much rarer degree previously. But by the standard definitions of egotism, he's certainly an egotistical character. I'm afraid your definition is incorrect.
    If Craig's Bond is rattled by a woman replacing him then he is a whiny little toad who quite frankly isn't worthy of his status.

    Well, no. He's just a flawed man. I think if you're not open to the idea of Bond being a flawed and imperfect character who we're supposed to find a bit of a dick at times then I'm surprised you're a fan of these films. When Bond says "A woman?" when he meets Dr Goodhead we're supposed to think he's an arse.
    Anyway, we have different view on the subject so I am leaving it at that.

    If you like. I think if you're only able to give examples of how all of these films have got the character wrong over the years, then perhaps it's worth considering that that's just the character they've been portraying and you're refusing that for some reason.

    Because you are wrong.

    That's not a terribly convincing argument I'm afraid! :)
    I'm wrong about what I think is the character's more likely reaction in the new movie based on what I've seen about him? I'm not sure how my opinion can be wrong, and your suggestion for his reaction is one that you actually say you think the character shouldn't have, so I'm not sure how you can be 'right' when you're actually complaining that you're wrong! :)
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    I think the James Bond and Nomi relationship will just be another interesting exploration of age in this era. The whole "age is no guarantee of efficiency" and "youth is no guarantee of innovation" played through the role of 007. That's where the friction is going to be I think. I don't think it'll be gender-based. I think it'll played in the same way it would if it was a new male agent.

    So James will have some kind of ego regarding his time as 00 agent, whereas Nomi's ego will come from her own skills as a newer one, and I think they'll learn some things from each other by the end. I also think they will (or at least should) explore the idea that maybe Nomi has more respect for the job? I mean it's always been played up that Bond is somewhat of loose canon, especially Craig's, so I think friction will be caused by Nomi's more traditional and commited approach to the job itself and her employers.

    To me, it's why that clip of her saying "get in my way, I'll shoot you in the knee" makes so much sense cause of course if she's doing her job, and she knows this retired agent who was good but can be loose-canon and cause more problems is looking into things, she's gonna want him to stay out of the way - even if she needs him in someway.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I have explained about what ego means in relation to stoicism, and that Bond epitomises a lack of ego and the ideals of the stoics, which is what helps him in his job. Your understanding of what ego means I believe is incorrect. Hence why you think he has a big ego when he doesn't.

    I don't know what to say, really. Have you read the dictionary definition of ego and egotism?

    Here's a quick bit from this article:
    "Egotism is defined as the drive to maintain and enhance favorable views of oneself, and generally features an inflated opinion of one's personal features and importance. It often includes intellectual, physical, social and other overestimations"

    That's Bond. He thinks he's amazing. That frequently the films actually show him to be correct in that thought(!) doesn't make him any less egotistical. The Craig films changed this slightly by showing him to fallible and his egotism to be occasionally misplaced, which happened to a much rarer degree previously. But by the standard definitions of egotism, he's certainly an egotistical character. I'm afraid your definition is incorrect.
    If Craig's Bond is rattled by a woman replacing him then he is a whiny little toad who quite frankly isn't worthy of his status.

    Well, no. He's just a flawed man. I think if you're not open to the idea of Bond being a flawed and imperfect character who we're supposed to find a bit of a dick at times then I'm surprised you're a fan of these films. When Bond says "A woman?" when he meets Dr Goodhead we're supposed to think he's an arse.
    Anyway, we have different view on the subject so I am leaving it at that.

    If you like. I think if you're only able to give examples of how all of these films have got the character wrong over the years, then perhaps it's worth considering that that's just the character they've been portraying and you're refusing that for some reason.

    Because you are wrong.

    That's not a terribly convincing argument I'm afraid! :)

    Agreed, that's why I edited the comment and removed that statement.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    I will repeat my last statement.

    James Bond doesn't get rattled by personal insults or women being secret agents. End of story.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    I just don't think James Bond respects any other agents - apart from Felix - until he can actually get to know them. I mean we know he didn't respect 008 to some degree haha :D
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2020 Posts: 16,421
    mtm wrote: »
    I have explained about what ego means in relation to stoicism, and that Bond epitomises a lack of ego and the ideals of the stoics, which is what helps him in his job. Your understanding of what ego means I believe is incorrect. Hence why you think he has a big ego when he doesn't.

    I don't know what to say, really. Have you read the dictionary definition of ego and egotism?

    Here's a quick bit from this article:
    "Egotism is defined as the drive to maintain and enhance favorable views of oneself, and generally features an inflated opinion of one's personal features and importance. It often includes intellectual, physical, social and other overestimations"

    That's Bond. He thinks he's amazing. That frequently the films actually show him to be correct in that thought(!) doesn't make him any less egotistical. The Craig films changed this slightly by showing him to fallible and his egotism to be occasionally misplaced, which happened to a much rarer degree previously. But by the standard definitions of egotism, he's certainly an egotistical character. I'm afraid your definition is incorrect.
    If Craig's Bond is rattled by a woman replacing him then he is a whiny little toad who quite frankly isn't worthy of his status.

    Well, no. He's just a flawed man. I think if you're not open to the idea of Bond being a flawed and imperfect character who we're supposed to find a bit of a dick at times then I'm surprised you're a fan of these films. When Bond says "A woman?" when he meets Dr Goodhead we're supposed to think he's an arse.
    Anyway, we have different view on the subject so I am leaving it at that.

    If you like. I think if you're only able to give examples of how all of these films have got the character wrong over the years, then perhaps it's worth considering that that's just the character they've been portraying and you're refusing that for some reason.

    James Bond doesn't get hurt when people insult him or when women are secret agents. End of story.

    No I don't think so. Whenever an egotist's faith in their ego is shaken they get hurt or given a moment where they have to reconsider. Just watch Skyfall where it's clear his pride is damaged by his own failings when he's trying to rejoin MI6. He can be hurt and he considers himself the top of the tree.

    You admitted yourself that Bond is a sexist, if you can't see any dramatic potential at all in a sexist being replaced by a woman then I'm not sure you're looking very hard.
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I think the James Bond and Nomi relationship will just be another interesting exploration of age in this era. The whole "age is no guarantee of efficiency" and "youth is no guarantee of innovation" played through the role of 007. That's where the friction is going to be I think. I don't think it'll be gender-based. I think it'll played in the same way it would if it was a new male agent.

    So James will have some kind of ego regarding his time as 00 agent, whereas Nomi's ego will come from her own skills as a newer one, and I think they'll learn some things from each other by the end. I also think they will (or at least should) explore the idea that maybe Nomi has more respect for the job? I mean it's always been played up that Bond is somewhat of loose canon, especially Craig's, so I think friction will be caused by Nomi's more traditional and commited approach to the job itself and her employers.

    To me, it's why that clip of her saying "get in my way, I'll shoot you in the knee" makes so much sense cause of course if she's doing her job, and she knows this retired agent who was good but can be loose-canon and cause more problems is looking into things, she's gonna want him to stay out of the way - even if she needs him in someway.

    Yeah that all makes sense to me. I think Lynch said in an interview that she's a very by-the-book agent (which does make it sound like there's potentially a slightly tired old 'they learn from each other' story in the film- hopefully not as naff as it sounds!) so I think you're right.
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