Lashana Lynch as 007 and the Women of 'No Time to Die' (SPOILERS!)

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Comments

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,306
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    For god's sake, a man replaced our female M for more films and no-one complained.

    Also, by a lot of arguments on here Fleming would've been pissed off that M was made into a woman. Oh wait but we enjoyed her, so changing genders can work and her gender was an afterthought because she's such a good M.

    Oh yeah remember when Moneypenny was made a black woman and we all really like Naomie Harris and her performance, and her colour was a massive afterthought because she's a great actress and a great Moneypenny.

    And now you can't handle a new character being known as 007 for one film, even though it has no real effect on who James Bond is because he quit in the last movie. In the context of this world 007 is a codename, not a person having their gender or race changed. It's just a bloody promotion cause our golden boy decided to quit.

    Anyone wanna respond to this?

    I agree with you. So do a lot of other people on here.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited July 2019 Posts: 13,978
    Surely this is less about stopping there being a black female spy, then it is about the '007' being given to a new character, for reasons, that to some people, might not hold up to much scrutiny. Is Lynch played 009, we wouldn't be seeing all of.... this, right now.
    You think?

    I'd like to answer that, but I don't have a big enough ego. Anyone else want to take a punt at answering for me?
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,306
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    But again, they are NOT doing it for good reasons like to serve the story or make the film better. It's ONLY to pander to the SJW crowd. If you don't believe that you are in deep denial.

    You say “it doesn’t serve the story” or “make the film better” to have a black female character. Well, I strongly disagree. Women of colour are so hugely misrepresented in film that I genuinely believe if there is a character that can be played by a white woman or a black woman, then we should give the role to the black woman. You might argue this is unfair - but it is already unfair, and it is already massively skewed in favour of white actors. Do you really think it doesn’t serve the story to have characters that reflect the world, or do you think films should just have white people in them? In this case, is it really so unrealistic that a black woman might achieve 00 status? Are there black women in England? Staggeringly, there are! So, let’s perhaps have them represented. You might say “I have no issue with black women being represented in film, just not this one”. If you say that, then yes, you have an issue with black women in film. So, yes, having women and black women in films does make them better and it serves the story to represent the world as a place where women and particularly black women exist.
    Is this to please the SJWs? I hope so. Because there’s absolutely nothing wrong with wanting equality or representation. And if they are making decisions to please the shifting status quo, then I’m all for it. If to you a SJW is someone who wants to change things for the sake of change, who wants to ruin things by making the world PC, then you’ve completely missed the point of these movements. It doesn’t ruin anything to have the world represented as it is, or as it should be. Giving women and women of colour an equal place in our media - particularly film - isn’t ruining anything but an entrenched sexism and racism. Please, by all means cling to that if you must, but at least own it. Don’t pretend it’s anything other than racism and misogyny hiding behind a translucent argument.

    Bingo. Thank you.
  • Posts: 1,092
    jake24 wrote: »
    I feel quite bad for Lashana. She's been the victim of verbal attacks on social media by uninformed idiots for the past 24 hours.

    I feel bad for her as well. As I said before, she has right to take the role; who wouldn't? But let's be honest about her role in this entire situation: she's being used as a tool by people in positions of power for their own political agenda.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    She is NOT being used as a tool. Geez.
    She is a good actress, in a role in a Bond film and it looks to be an interesting role.
    No problem at all with her, her role, any of it. Geez.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    She is NOT being used as a tool. Geez.
    She is a good actress, in a role in a Bond film and it looks to be an interesting role.
    No problem at all with her, her role, any of it. Geez.
    +1
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    White fragility is so pathetic.
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 1,092
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    So if Superman had been a black female for the past 80 years the character would be as successful and globally recognized as it is today? Really?

    Sadly, we both know the answer is that a black female Superman would not have been as successful or globally recognised. And we probably both know that’s down to inherent racism and sexism in society. Because people such as yourself would decry a black female Superman, just as you’re decrying a black female secret agent. Should there have been better representations in our media? Absolutely. Perhaps if there had been we wouldn’t still be arguing whether a black person in a film role was a good or bad thing. Because - I can almost not believe it - that’s what we’re doing here.

    You ask why change the race or gender if it doesn’t matter? Well, that’s a good question. It doesn’t matter if, say, Moneypenny is black or white. That has no bearing on her as a character. But look around. How many black female characters are there? Very, very few. So, if it doesn’t matter either way whether they’re black if white, then just because of the fact they are so badly represented, they should be black. How can you not see that?

    Who cares how many there are? Why does representation in a FICTIONAL world matter? For me, as a biracial person (Mexican father, American mother), seeing someone on screen that looks like me means less than nothing. I enjoy superheroes and characters like James Bond because they are fun, exciting, well-written archetypes.

    Let's go further with the Superman example. He's 6' 4", dark hair, handsome, etc. Oh, and an alien! He looks nothing like me (or most people) and so what? I still love him as a character because of his other traits. Also, how far would you be willing to go in regards to changing a character? If Supes was played by someone 5' 1" with red hair, would he still be the same character? His physical characteristics don't matter in this case, right? He would still have super powers, still be strong, have flight, be bulletproof, etc, correct? He could be the size of a baby and still pound villains into the ground with ease.

    Again, how far can we change a character until it's not the same character?
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I honestly think you worry too much, @The_Reaper .
    And possibly too much coffee ...
  • Posts: 1,092
    I honestly think you worry too much, @The_Reaper .
    And possibly too much coffee ...

    Haha! That's definitely true. :))
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited July 2019 Posts: 8,218
    Surely this is less about stopping there being a black female spy, then it is about the '007' being given to a new character, for reasons, that to some people, might not hold up to much scrutiny. Is Lynch played 009, we wouldn't be seeing all of.... this, right now.
    You think?

    I'd like to answer that, but I don't have a big enough ego. Anyone else want to take a punt at answering for me?

    Even this morning I would have given breathing room to your train of thought, @MajorDSmythe. I even posted something similar myself a couple of times, even though I'm all for the idea of Lashana as 007.

    But unfortunately there have been several rather questionable (borderline racist) statements posted since then that have made that position untenable, I think. I'm sure there are a number of people who genuinely just see Bond and 007 as inextricably linked and wouldn't have welcomed any character regardless of race or gender to assume that number, but those who have let their inner prejudices slip (as they do) have really darkened this entire issue to the point where it doesn't really matter anymore.
  • doubleonothingdoubleonothing Los Angeles
    Posts: 864
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    jake24 wrote: »
    I feel quite bad for Lashana. She's been the victim of verbal attacks on social media by uninformed idiots for the past 24 hours.

    I feel bad for her as well. As I said before, she has right to take the role; who wouldn't? But let's be honest about her role in this entire situation: she's being used as a tool by people in positions of power for their own political agenda.

    I don’t feel bad for her. Because I sincerely doubt she considers herself a political tool. I’d suggest she’s extremely brave to take the role, considering she’d be likely fully aware of the kind of backlash it would generate - the backlash you’re a part of. But I’d say she’s taking the role not just because it’s a good role but precisely because it is a statement. Good for her. Is there a political agenda here? Absolutely. Because it’s damn time women and women of colour were properly represented and I think this is a bold and positive move by the producers. You feel sorry for her? I’m sure she doesn’t want your pity. Christ. I suspect that as a black female actress she’s worked hard to overcome the kind of barriers that people such as yourself are throwing up.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited July 2019 Posts: 4,343
    matt_u wrote: »
    You know I'm all in for these Nomi being 007 for just this movie... but I have to say her outfit as a double 0 is pretty embarrassing here. In Jamaica she looks perfect, on the other hand.

    007-e1561527875189.jpg

    It's an obvious wink to this fella....

    That's not the point. She's not quite convincing as a double 0 in that outfit, she doesn't look sharp. But that's just a random picture and in the Jamaica videoblog she looks good, as I said before.
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    edited July 2019 Posts: 3,126
    So it's not ok for people to disagree? I don't know I might warm to it but it will take growing and don't come attack me. I just look that 007 logo and I go huh ? No wait yeah its going to have to grow.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,431
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    She is 007?!!!

    What are you saying?

    :)) Well just that? Have mentioned about the GB and PTS. If she is the new established 007? Why wouldn't it be her in those 2 sequences? I know what I agree and disagree with? I am just playing devils advocate now to see the opposite response? Which I conclude is a situation where as always someone's gonna get angry about it.

    You (and a lot of others) seem to have confused the idea of a character having the job number of '007' and being the star of this film, which for this film (and Die Another Day) isn't the same thing.
  • infoviseinfovise Ireland
    Posts: 114
    I think Lashana having the 007 codename is a good twist and the interactions between Bond and Nomi should be a treat to watch. I don't like the way people are overreacting to the news like they just saw their childhood home burning to the ground. The forums have imploded since the leak broke, what used to be something I looked forward to reading everyday has mostly just become people giving out to each other over what is essentially a non story.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    infovise wrote: »
    I think Lashana having the 007 codename is a good twist and the interactions between Bond and Nomi should be a treat to watch. I don't like the way people are overreacting to the news like they just saw their childhood home burning to the ground. The forums have imploded since the leak broke, what used to be something I looked forward to reading everyday has mostly just become people giving out to each other over what is essentially a non story.
    Precisely @infovise and with Phoebe-Waller Bridge, the dialogue between them shall be sprinkled with her writing style and humour. Gonna be great.
  • doubleonothingdoubleonothing Los Angeles
    Posts: 864
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    So if Superman had been a black female for the past 80 years the character would be as successful and globally recognized as it is today? Really?

    Sadly, we both know the answer is that a black female Superman would not have been as successful or globally recognised. And we probably both know that’s down to inherent racism and sexism in society. Because people such as yourself would decry a black female Superman, just as you’re decrying a black female secret agent. Should there have been better representations in our media? Absolutely. Perhaps if there had been we wouldn’t still be arguing whether a black person in a film role was a good or bad thing. Because - I can almost not believe it - that’s what we’re doing here.

    You ask why change the race or gender if it doesn’t matter? Well, that’s a good question. It doesn’t matter if, say, Moneypenny is black or white. That has no bearing on her as a character. But look around. How many black female characters are there? Very, very few. So, if it doesn’t matter either way whether they’re black if white, then just because of the fact they are so badly represented, they should be black. How can you not see that?

    Who cares how many there are? Why does representation in a FICTIONAL world matter? For me, as a biracial person (Mexican father, American mother), seeing someone on screen that looks like me means less than nothing. I enjoy superheroes and characters like James Bond because they are fun, exciting, well-written archetypes.

    Let's go further with the Superman example. He's 6' 4", dark hair, handsome, etc. Oh, and an alien! He looks nothing like me (or most people) and so what? I still love him as a character because of his other traits. Also, how far would you be willing to go in regards to changing a character? If Supes was played by someone 5' 1" with red hair, would he still be the same character? His physical characteristics don't matter in this case, right? He would still have super powers, still be strong, have flight, be bulletproof, etc, correct? He could be the size of a baby and still pound villains into the ground with ease.

    Again, how far can we change a character until it's not the same character?

    Okay, let’s go point by point.
    1) Why does representation in a fictional world matter? Because our media is what shapes our cultural and societal viewpoints. If women and people of colour are under-represented, or represented in a negative light in media and entertainment, that’s how we are informing our society. The fact that you are bi-racial and personally don’t care about how you’re represented is ignoring the fact that many people do care and it affects them in the real world. To believe otherwise is naive. Representation means “less than nothing” to you, so it should mean the same to millions of others who are marginalised and disenfranchised? That’s literally saying “doesn’t bother me so why should I care?” Being bi-racial doesn’t make that stance any more palatable.

    2) This whole “what if Superman was a 5’ 1” redhead?” argument is ridiculous. And you know why? Because we’ve already had it with Bond. The physical archetype for Bond is over 6’, dark hair, and movie star handsome. That’s how Fleming wrote him. He also wrote him as a character who smoked 50 a day and did drugs to stay focused. Craig’s Bond is under 6’. He’s blond and, (no disrespect to Mr. Craig), he’s not conventionally handsome. He doesn’t smoke or do drugs. On top of which, they entirely re-wrote his backstory. Oh, yeah, remember that this is an entirely different character now. He’s not even supposed to be the same Bond that Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton, and Brosnan played. You asked how far we can change a character before it’s not the same character anymore? They already did it.
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 727
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    jake24 wrote: »
    I feel quite bad for Lashana. She's been the victim of verbal attacks on social media by uninformed idiots for the past 24 hours.

    I feel bad for her as well. As I said before, she has right to take the role; who wouldn't? But let's be honest about her role in this entire situation: she's being used as a tool by people in positions of power for their own political agenda.

    Ah yes....the nefarious political agenda of greater ethnic and gender representation.
  • Posts: 1,092
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    So if Superman had been a black female for the past 80 years the character would be as successful and globally recognized as it is today? Really?

    Sadly, we both know the answer is that a black female Superman would not have been as successful or globally recognised. And we probably both know that’s down to inherent racism and sexism in society. Because people such as yourself would decry a black female Superman, just as you’re decrying a black female secret agent. Should there have been better representations in our media? Absolutely. Perhaps if there had been we wouldn’t still be arguing whether a black person in a film role was a good or bad thing. Because - I can almost not believe it - that’s what we’re doing here.

    You ask why change the race or gender if it doesn’t matter? Well, that’s a good question. It doesn’t matter if, say, Moneypenny is black or white. That has no bearing on her as a character. But look around. How many black female characters are there? Very, very few. So, if it doesn’t matter either way whether they’re black if white, then just because of the fact they are so badly represented, they should be black. How can you not see that?

    Who cares how many there are? Why does representation in a FICTIONAL world matter? For me, as a biracial person (Mexican father, American mother), seeing someone on screen that looks like me means less than nothing. I enjoy superheroes and characters like James Bond because they are fun, exciting, well-written archetypes.

    Let's go further with the Superman example. He's 6' 4", dark hair, handsome, etc. Oh, and an alien! He looks nothing like me (or most people) and so what? I still love him as a character because of his other traits. Also, how far would you be willing to go in regards to changing a character? If Supes was played by someone 5' 1" with red hair, would he still be the same character? His physical characteristics don't matter in this case, right? He would still have super powers, still be strong, have flight, be bulletproof, etc, correct? He could be the size of a baby and still pound villains into the ground with ease.

    Again, how far can we change a character until it's not the same character?

    Okay, let’s go point by point.
    1) Why does representation in a fictional world matter? Because our media is what shapes our cultural and societal viewpoints. If women and people of colour are under-represented, or represented in a negative light in media and entertainment, that’s how we are informing our society. The fact that you are bi-racial and personally don’t care about how you’re represented is ignoring the fact that many people do care and it affects them in the real world. To believe otherwise is naive. Representation means “less than nothing” to you, so it should mean the same to millions of others who are marginalised and disenfranchised? That’s literally saying “doesn’t bother me so why should I care?” Being bi-racial doesn’t make that stance any more palatable.

    2) This whole “what if Superman was a 5’ 1” redhead?” argument is ridiculous. And you know why? Because we’ve already had it with Bond. The physical archetype for Bond is over 6’, dark hair, and movie star handsome. That’s how Fleming wrote him. He also wrote him as a character who smoked 50 a day and did drugs to stay focused. Craig’s Bond is under 6’. He’s blond and, (no disrespect to Mr. Craig), he’s not conventionally handsome. He doesn’t smoke or do drugs. On top of which, they entirely re-wrote his backstory. Oh, yeah, remember that this is an entirely different character now. He’s not even supposed to be the same Bond that Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton, and Brosnan played. You asked how far we can change a character before it’s not the same character anymore? They already did it.

    Again, how far is too far?
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,306
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    So if Superman had been a black female for the past 80 years the character would be as successful and globally recognized as it is today? Really?

    Sadly, we both know the answer is that a black female Superman would not have been as successful or globally recognised. And we probably both know that’s down to inherent racism and sexism in society. Because people such as yourself would decry a black female Superman, just as you’re decrying a black female secret agent. Should there have been better representations in our media? Absolutely. Perhaps if there had been we wouldn’t still be arguing whether a black person in a film role was a good or bad thing. Because - I can almost not believe it - that’s what we’re doing here.

    You ask why change the race or gender if it doesn’t matter? Well, that’s a good question. It doesn’t matter if, say, Moneypenny is black or white. That has no bearing on her as a character. But look around. How many black female characters are there? Very, very few. So, if it doesn’t matter either way whether they’re black if white, then just because of the fact they are so badly represented, they should be black. How can you not see that?

    Who cares how many there are? Why does representation in a FICTIONAL world matter? For me, as a biracial person (Mexican father, American mother), seeing someone on screen that looks like me means less than nothing. I enjoy superheroes and characters like James Bond because they are fun, exciting, well-written archetypes.

    Let's go further with the Superman example. He's 6' 4", dark hair, handsome, etc. Oh, and an alien! He looks nothing like me (or most people) and so what? I still love him as a character because of his other traits. Also, how far would you be willing to go in regards to changing a character? If Supes was played by someone 5' 1" with red hair, would he still be the same character? His physical characteristics don't matter in this case, right? He would still have super powers, still be strong, have flight, be bulletproof, etc, correct? He could be the size of a baby and still pound villains into the ground with ease.

    Again, how far can we change a character until it's not the same character?

    Okay, let’s go point by point.
    1) Why does representation in a fictional world matter? Because our media is what shapes our cultural and societal viewpoints. If women and people of colour are under-represented, or represented in a negative light in media and entertainment, that’s how we are informing our society. The fact that you are bi-racial and personally don’t care about how you’re represented is ignoring the fact that many people do care and it affects them in the real world. To believe otherwise is naive. Representation means “less than nothing” to you, so it should mean the same to millions of others who are marginalised and disenfranchised? That’s literally saying “doesn’t bother me so why should I care?” Being bi-racial doesn’t make that stance any more palatable.

    2) This whole “what if Superman was a 5’ 1” redhead?” argument is ridiculous. And you know why? Because we’ve already had it with Bond. The physical archetype for Bond is over 6’, dark hair, and movie star handsome. That’s how Fleming wrote him. He also wrote him as a character who smoked 50 a day and did drugs to stay focused. Craig’s Bond is under 6’. He’s blond and, (no disrespect to Mr. Craig), he’s not conventionally handsome. He doesn’t smoke or do drugs. On top of which, they entirely re-wrote his backstory. Oh, yeah, remember that this is an entirely different character now. He’s not even supposed to be the same Bond that Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton, and Brosnan played. You asked how far we can change a character before it’s not the same character anymore? They already did it.

    Again, how far is too far?

    So your argument is traditional representation? Just checking...
  • doubleonothingdoubleonothing Los Angeles
    Posts: 864
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    So if Superman had been a black female for the past 80 years the character would be as successful and globally recognized as it is today? Really?

    Sadly, we both know the answer is that a black female Superman would not have been as successful or globally recognised. And we probably both know that’s down to inherent racism and sexism in society. Because people such as yourself would decry a black female Superman, just as you’re decrying a black female secret agent. Should there have been better representations in our media? Absolutely. Perhaps if there had been we wouldn’t still be arguing whether a black person in a film role was a good or bad thing. Because - I can almost not believe it - that’s what we’re doing here.

    You ask why change the race or gender if it doesn’t matter? Well, that’s a good question. It doesn’t matter if, say, Moneypenny is black or white. That has no bearing on her as a character. But look around. How many black female characters are there? Very, very few. So, if it doesn’t matter either way whether they’re black if white, then just because of the fact they are so badly represented, they should be black. How can you not see that?

    Who cares how many there are? Why does representation in a FICTIONAL world matter? For me, as a biracial person (Mexican father, American mother), seeing someone on screen that looks like me means less than nothing. I enjoy superheroes and characters like James Bond because they are fun, exciting, well-written archetypes.

    Let's go further with the Superman example. He's 6' 4", dark hair, handsome, etc. Oh, and an alien! He looks nothing like me (or most people) and so what? I still love him as a character because of his other traits. Also, how far would you be willing to go in regards to changing a character? If Supes was played by someone 5' 1" with red hair, would he still be the same character? His physical characteristics don't matter in this case, right? He would still have super powers, still be strong, have flight, be bulletproof, etc, correct? He could be the size of a baby and still pound villains into the ground with ease.

    Again, how far can we change a character until it's not the same character?

    Okay, let’s go point by point.
    1) Why does representation in a fictional world matter? Because our media is what shapes our cultural and societal viewpoints. If women and people of colour are under-represented, or represented in a negative light in media and entertainment, that’s how we are informing our society. The fact that you are bi-racial and personally don’t care about how you’re represented is ignoring the fact that many people do care and it affects them in the real world. To believe otherwise is naive. Representation means “less than nothing” to you, so it should mean the same to millions of others who are marginalised and disenfranchised? That’s literally saying “doesn’t bother me so why should I care?” Being bi-racial doesn’t make that stance any more palatable.

    2) This whole “what if Superman was a 5’ 1” redhead?” argument is ridiculous. And you know why? Because we’ve already had it with Bond. The physical archetype for Bond is over 6’, dark hair, and movie star handsome. That’s how Fleming wrote him. He also wrote him as a character who smoked 50 a day and did drugs to stay focused. Craig’s Bond is under 6’. He’s blond and, (no disrespect to Mr. Craig), he’s not conventionally handsome. He doesn’t smoke or do drugs. On top of which, they entirely re-wrote his backstory. Oh, yeah, remember that this is an entirely different character now. He’s not even supposed to be the same Bond that Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton, and Brosnan played. You asked how far we can change a character before it’s not the same character anymore? They already did it.

    Again, how far is too far?

    So, let’s just get this straight. They’ve cast a black woman in the role of a “00” agent. She’s not Bond, nor is she likely to be “007” after this film. She’s literally taken his number after Bond retired and has been gone for a few years. And this is what you’re losing your lunch over? If anyone has gone too far, I’d say it’s you.
  • Posts: 6,709
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    So if Superman had been a black female for the past 80 years the character would be as successful and globally recognized as it is today? Really?

    Sadly, we both know the answer is that a black female Superman would not have been as successful or globally recognised. And we probably both know that’s down to inherent racism and sexism in society. Because people such as yourself would decry a black female Superman, just as you’re decrying a black female secret agent. Should there have been better representations in our media? Absolutely. Perhaps if there had been we wouldn’t still be arguing whether a black person in a film role was a good or bad thing. Because - I can almost not believe it - that’s what we’re doing here.

    You ask why change the race or gender if it doesn’t matter? Well, that’s a good question. It doesn’t matter if, say, Moneypenny is black or white. That has no bearing on her as a character. But look around. How many black female characters are there? Very, very few. So, if it doesn’t matter either way whether they’re black if white, then just because of the fact they are so badly represented, they should be black. How can you not see that?

    Who cares how many there are? Why does representation in a FICTIONAL world matter? For me, as a biracial person (Mexican father, American mother), seeing someone on screen that looks like me means less than nothing. I enjoy superheroes and characters like James Bond because they are fun, exciting, well-written archetypes.

    Let's go further with the Superman example. He's 6' 4", dark hair, handsome, etc. Oh, and an alien! He looks nothing like me (or most people) and so what? I still love him as a character because of his other traits. Also, how far would you be willing to go in regards to changing a character? If Supes was played by someone 5' 1" with red hair, would he still be the same character? His physical characteristics don't matter in this case, right? He would still have super powers, still be strong, have flight, be bulletproof, etc, correct? He could be the size of a baby and still pound villains into the ground with ease.

    Again, how far can we change a character until it's not the same character?

    Okay, let’s go point by point.
    1) Why does representation in a fictional world matter? Because our media is what shapes our cultural and societal viewpoints. If women and people of colour are under-represented, or represented in a negative light in media and entertainment, that’s how we are informing our society. The fact that you are bi-racial and personally don’t care about how you’re represented is ignoring the fact that many people do care and it affects them in the real world. To believe otherwise is naive. Representation means “less than nothing” to you, so it should mean the same to millions of others who are marginalised and disenfranchised? That’s literally saying “doesn’t bother me so why should I care?” Being bi-racial doesn’t make that stance any more palatable.

    2) This whole “what if Superman was a 5’ 1” redhead?” argument is ridiculous. And you know why? Because we’ve already had it with Bond. The physical archetype for Bond is over 6’, dark hair, and movie star handsome. That’s how Fleming wrote him. He also wrote him as a character who smoked 50 a day and did drugs to stay focused. Craig’s Bond is under 6’. He’s blond and, (no disrespect to Mr. Craig), he’s not conventionally handsome. He doesn’t smoke or do drugs. On top of which, they entirely re-wrote his backstory. Oh, yeah, remember that this is an entirely different character now. He’s not even supposed to be the same Bond that Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton, and Brosnan played. You asked how far we can change a character before it’s not the same character anymore? They already did it.

    Again, how far is too far?

    So, let’s just get this straight. They’ve cast a black woman in the role of a “00” agent. She’s not Bond, nor is she likely to be “007” after this film. She’s literally taken his number after Bond retired and has been gone for a few years. And this is what you’re losing your lunch over? If anyone has gone too far, I’d say it’s you.

    I still don't understand how people are misunderstanding this. Pure fear? Or plain stupidity? Or both.

    If Connery's Bond had the same thing happening to him, with an Emma Peel type in the 60s, that would make for some fun, wouldn't it? I bet we'd love to see that. I would have.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,431
    Univex wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    So if Superman had been a black female for the past 80 years the character would be as successful and globally recognized as it is today? Really?

    Sadly, we both know the answer is that a black female Superman would not have been as successful or globally recognised. And we probably both know that’s down to inherent racism and sexism in society. Because people such as yourself would decry a black female Superman, just as you’re decrying a black female secret agent. Should there have been better representations in our media? Absolutely. Perhaps if there had been we wouldn’t still be arguing whether a black person in a film role was a good or bad thing. Because - I can almost not believe it - that’s what we’re doing here.

    You ask why change the race or gender if it doesn’t matter? Well, that’s a good question. It doesn’t matter if, say, Moneypenny is black or white. That has no bearing on her as a character. But look around. How many black female characters are there? Very, very few. So, if it doesn’t matter either way whether they’re black if white, then just because of the fact they are so badly represented, they should be black. How can you not see that?

    Who cares how many there are? Why does representation in a FICTIONAL world matter? For me, as a biracial person (Mexican father, American mother), seeing someone on screen that looks like me means less than nothing. I enjoy superheroes and characters like James Bond because they are fun, exciting, well-written archetypes.

    Let's go further with the Superman example. He's 6' 4", dark hair, handsome, etc. Oh, and an alien! He looks nothing like me (or most people) and so what? I still love him as a character because of his other traits. Also, how far would you be willing to go in regards to changing a character? If Supes was played by someone 5' 1" with red hair, would he still be the same character? His physical characteristics don't matter in this case, right? He would still have super powers, still be strong, have flight, be bulletproof, etc, correct? He could be the size of a baby and still pound villains into the ground with ease.

    Again, how far can we change a character until it's not the same character?

    Okay, let’s go point by point.
    1) Why does representation in a fictional world matter? Because our media is what shapes our cultural and societal viewpoints. If women and people of colour are under-represented, or represented in a negative light in media and entertainment, that’s how we are informing our society. The fact that you are bi-racial and personally don’t care about how you’re represented is ignoring the fact that many people do care and it affects them in the real world. To believe otherwise is naive. Representation means “less than nothing” to you, so it should mean the same to millions of others who are marginalised and disenfranchised? That’s literally saying “doesn’t bother me so why should I care?” Being bi-racial doesn’t make that stance any more palatable.

    2) This whole “what if Superman was a 5’ 1” redhead?” argument is ridiculous. And you know why? Because we’ve already had it with Bond. The physical archetype for Bond is over 6’, dark hair, and movie star handsome. That’s how Fleming wrote him. He also wrote him as a character who smoked 50 a day and did drugs to stay focused. Craig’s Bond is under 6’. He’s blond and, (no disrespect to Mr. Craig), he’s not conventionally handsome. He doesn’t smoke or do drugs. On top of which, they entirely re-wrote his backstory. Oh, yeah, remember that this is an entirely different character now. He’s not even supposed to be the same Bond that Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton, and Brosnan played. You asked how far we can change a character before it’s not the same character anymore? They already did it.

    Again, how far is too far?

    So, let’s just get this straight. They’ve cast a black woman in the role of a “00” agent. She’s not Bond, nor is she likely to be “007” after this film. She’s literally taken his number after Bond retired and has been gone for a few years. And this is what you’re losing your lunch over? If anyone has gone too far, I’d say it’s you.

    I still don't understand how people are misunderstanding this. Pure fear? Or plain stupidity? Or both.

    If Connery's Bond had the same thing happening to him, with an Emma Peel type in the 60s, that would make for some fun, wouldn't it? I bet we'd love to see that. I would have.

    Indeed. Or imagine a scene where we meet Bond's opposite number in Russia: a superspy to rival our own 007. We see a couple in bed, and suddenly a secret radio in the bedside cabinet sparks to life, the KGB chief on the other end asking for his top agent. The ruggedly handsome, hairy chested man reaches to the radio... and gets up! Allowing his beautiful female lover to answer the call! It turns out she's Agent XXX! A woman!!

    Oh hang on, they did this years ago and it was fine.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    To be honest, if we didn't find out about this until we saw the film, people would be acting very differently.
  • Posts: 6,709
    mtm wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    So if Superman had been a black female for the past 80 years the character would be as successful and globally recognized as it is today? Really?

    Sadly, we both know the answer is that a black female Superman would not have been as successful or globally recognised. And we probably both know that’s down to inherent racism and sexism in society. Because people such as yourself would decry a black female Superman, just as you’re decrying a black female secret agent. Should there have been better representations in our media? Absolutely. Perhaps if there had been we wouldn’t still be arguing whether a black person in a film role was a good or bad thing. Because - I can almost not believe it - that’s what we’re doing here.

    You ask why change the race or gender if it doesn’t matter? Well, that’s a good question. It doesn’t matter if, say, Moneypenny is black or white. That has no bearing on her as a character. But look around. How many black female characters are there? Very, very few. So, if it doesn’t matter either way whether they’re black if white, then just because of the fact they are so badly represented, they should be black. How can you not see that?

    Who cares how many there are? Why does representation in a FICTIONAL world matter? For me, as a biracial person (Mexican father, American mother), seeing someone on screen that looks like me means less than nothing. I enjoy superheroes and characters like James Bond because they are fun, exciting, well-written archetypes.

    Let's go further with the Superman example. He's 6' 4", dark hair, handsome, etc. Oh, and an alien! He looks nothing like me (or most people) and so what? I still love him as a character because of his other traits. Also, how far would you be willing to go in regards to changing a character? If Supes was played by someone 5' 1" with red hair, would he still be the same character? His physical characteristics don't matter in this case, right? He would still have super powers, still be strong, have flight, be bulletproof, etc, correct? He could be the size of a baby and still pound villains into the ground with ease.

    Again, how far can we change a character until it's not the same character?

    Okay, let’s go point by point.
    1) Why does representation in a fictional world matter? Because our media is what shapes our cultural and societal viewpoints. If women and people of colour are under-represented, or represented in a negative light in media and entertainment, that’s how we are informing our society. The fact that you are bi-racial and personally don’t care about how you’re represented is ignoring the fact that many people do care and it affects them in the real world. To believe otherwise is naive. Representation means “less than nothing” to you, so it should mean the same to millions of others who are marginalised and disenfranchised? That’s literally saying “doesn’t bother me so why should I care?” Being bi-racial doesn’t make that stance any more palatable.

    2) This whole “what if Superman was a 5’ 1” redhead?” argument is ridiculous. And you know why? Because we’ve already had it with Bond. The physical archetype for Bond is over 6’, dark hair, and movie star handsome. That’s how Fleming wrote him. He also wrote him as a character who smoked 50 a day and did drugs to stay focused. Craig’s Bond is under 6’. He’s blond and, (no disrespect to Mr. Craig), he’s not conventionally handsome. He doesn’t smoke or do drugs. On top of which, they entirely re-wrote his backstory. Oh, yeah, remember that this is an entirely different character now. He’s not even supposed to be the same Bond that Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton, and Brosnan played. You asked how far we can change a character before it’s not the same character anymore? They already did it.

    Again, how far is too far?

    So, let’s just get this straight. They’ve cast a black woman in the role of a “00” agent. She’s not Bond, nor is she likely to be “007” after this film. She’s literally taken his number after Bond retired and has been gone for a few years. And this is what you’re losing your lunch over? If anyone has gone too far, I’d say it’s you.

    I still don't understand how people are misunderstanding this. Pure fear? Or plain stupidity? Or both.

    If Connery's Bond had the same thing happening to him, with an Emma Peel type in the 60s, that would make for some fun, wouldn't it? I bet we'd love to see that. I would have.

    Indeed. Or imagine a scene where we meet Bond's opposite number in Russia: a superspy to rival our own 007. We see a couple in bed, and suddenly a secret radio in the bedside cabinet sparks to life, the KGB chief on the other end asking for his top agent. The ruggedly handsome, hairy chested man reaches to the radio... and gets up! Allowing his beautiful female lover to answer the call! It turns out she's Agent XXX! A woman!!

    Oh hang on, they did this years ago and it was fine.

    She sure was ;)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Univex wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    So if Superman had been a black female for the past 80 years the character would be as successful and globally recognized as it is today? Really?

    Sadly, we both know the answer is that a black female Superman would not have been as successful or globally recognised. And we probably both know that’s down to inherent racism and sexism in society. Because people such as yourself would decry a black female Superman, just as you’re decrying a black female secret agent. Should there have been better representations in our media? Absolutely. Perhaps if there had been we wouldn’t still be arguing whether a black person in a film role was a good or bad thing. Because - I can almost not believe it - that’s what we’re doing here.

    You ask why change the race or gender if it doesn’t matter? Well, that’s a good question. It doesn’t matter if, say, Moneypenny is black or white. That has no bearing on her as a character. But look around. How many black female characters are there? Very, very few. So, if it doesn’t matter either way whether they’re black if white, then just because of the fact they are so badly represented, they should be black. How can you not see that?

    Who cares how many there are? Why does representation in a FICTIONAL world matter? For me, as a biracial person (Mexican father, American mother), seeing someone on screen that looks like me means less than nothing. I enjoy superheroes and characters like James Bond because they are fun, exciting, well-written archetypes.

    Let's go further with the Superman example. He's 6' 4", dark hair, handsome, etc. Oh, and an alien! He looks nothing like me (or most people) and so what? I still love him as a character because of his other traits. Also, how far would you be willing to go in regards to changing a character? If Supes was played by someone 5' 1" with red hair, would he still be the same character? His physical characteristics don't matter in this case, right? He would still have super powers, still be strong, have flight, be bulletproof, etc, correct? He could be the size of a baby and still pound villains into the ground with ease.

    Again, how far can we change a character until it's not the same character?

    Okay, let’s go point by point.
    1) Why does representation in a fictional world matter? Because our media is what shapes our cultural and societal viewpoints. If women and people of colour are under-represented, or represented in a negative light in media and entertainment, that’s how we are informing our society. The fact that you are bi-racial and personally don’t care about how you’re represented is ignoring the fact that many people do care and it affects them in the real world. To believe otherwise is naive. Representation means “less than nothing” to you, so it should mean the same to millions of others who are marginalised and disenfranchised? That’s literally saying “doesn’t bother me so why should I care?” Being bi-racial doesn’t make that stance any more palatable.

    2) This whole “what if Superman was a 5’ 1” redhead?” argument is ridiculous. And you know why? Because we’ve already had it with Bond. The physical archetype for Bond is over 6’, dark hair, and movie star handsome. That’s how Fleming wrote him. He also wrote him as a character who smoked 50 a day and did drugs to stay focused. Craig’s Bond is under 6’. He’s blond and, (no disrespect to Mr. Craig), he’s not conventionally handsome. He doesn’t smoke or do drugs. On top of which, they entirely re-wrote his backstory. Oh, yeah, remember that this is an entirely different character now. He’s not even supposed to be the same Bond that Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton, and Brosnan played. You asked how far we can change a character before it’s not the same character anymore? They already did it.

    Again, how far is too far?

    So, let’s just get this straight. They’ve cast a black woman in the role of a “00” agent. She’s not Bond, nor is she likely to be “007” after this film. She’s literally taken his number after Bond retired and has been gone for a few years. And this is what you’re losing your lunch over? If anyone has gone too far, I’d say it’s you.

    I still don't understand how people are misunderstanding this. Pure fear? Or plain stupidity? Or both.

    If Connery's Bond had the same thing happening to him, with an Emma Peel type in the 60s, that would make for some fun, wouldn't it? I bet we'd love to see that. I would have.

    I’m sure if that was done in 1967 it would have become so ingrained in what we know about Bond films for the next 50 years that we don’t even second guess it in 2019. We would just accept that’s what they did back in the day. Just like future generations will look back today. “Oh yeah the one with the female 007 right?”.

    Just like how people got over a blond James Bond a decade ago, people will get over this.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    jake24 wrote: »
    I feel quite bad for Lashana. She's been the victim of verbal attacks on social media by uninformed idiots for the past 24 hours.

    I feel bad for her as well. As I said before, she has right to take the role; who wouldn't? But let's be honest about her role in this entire situation: she's being used as a tool by people in positions of power for their own political agenda.
    gs20s3wsvy7t.gif

  • JeremyBondonJeremyBondon Seeking out odd jobs with Oddjob @Tangier
    Posts: 1,318
    My girlfriend and I were going to name our daughter Nomi, quite a rare name. Save for the fact Paul Verhoeven's film Showgirls where its main character is called Nomi Malone. Well that ship has sailed. Not because she's black or anything, but the popularity of it will increase 20 fold, at least. My 2 cents of annoyance
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    I will keep an opened mind.
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