NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Discuss Hans Zimmer's Score

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  • edited August 2021 Posts: 1,220
    That’s kind of strange that he wouldn’t at least see some fresh ideas Newman had to offer, especially since the tracks lifted from Skyfall weren’t particularly special and I found the original cues in Spectre to be as good as if not better than most of the recycled Skyfall stuff.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited August 2021 Posts: 8,180
    That’s kind of strange that he wouldn’t at least see some fresh ideas Newman had to offer, especially since the tracks lifted from Skyfall weren’t particularly special and I found the original cues in Spectre to be as good as if not better than most of the recycled Skyfall stuff.

    Add to that, Mendes went onto say that he thought Newman’s original tracks for SP were his most confident. If that’s the case, why not let Newman score it entirely new??? I actually agree with the sentiment that there was more confidence in tracks like “Backfire”, and that it’s a shame we didn’t get more of that.

    There’s an excellent Vanity Fair round table interview with a bunch of composers where Danny Elfman expresses utter disdain at the practice of temp scores, because he’s noticed that directors can get so attached to the temp tracks the more they listen to them with the scenes during editing, that they request their composers to try copying the temp track. I believe this is what originally led to the fallout with him and Sam Raimi over the SPIDER-MAN 2 score where he asked Elfman to imitate a Christopher Young score. Eventually, Raimi would get his wish for the third film where he just hired Christopher Young.

    I’m willing to bet that for NTTD the gun barrel was at one point temp scored with Newman’s gun barrel track for SP, and that’s why Zimmer basically used that same arrangement with a few touches of his own. I’ll be curious if Zimmer copies BOTH Arnold and Newman tracks by the demands of the filmmakers.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2021 Posts: 16,344
    In the cases of LTK, GE, TND, DAD, QOS, SF and SP, the truth is that EON should have been more insistent with the composers on integrating the song in their scores, in the same manner as it was done with past films with. Of course, in all those specific films I mentioned, the composers had no hand in the songs.

    This is no doubt due to EON allowing the artists to have their creative freedom, as opposed to following the composer’s lead. IIRC, in the Bond and Friends podcast someone mentioned that one of the stipulations Barry made over whether he would score TND was that he was guaranteed control over the song, and EON wasn’t willing to guarantee him that, which is likely why he ultimately turned it down.

    So it’s always nice to hear that there was a collaboration between the composer and artists, as that at least assures a better weaving of the song in the soundtrack. I hope Zimmer has made good use of it in the way it used to be done back in the Cubby years.

    I believe with a lot of them there just wasn’t time to integrate them: the songs were brought in so late in the day. Hence why Spectre and Skyfall got parachuted in in the form of one cue each.
    There might be a little more hope with NTTD as it seems like Zimmer came in late too.
    Disagree with the examples of TND, DAD, and QOS. Arnold scored TND using "Surrender" as a prominent theme in the film with the understanding and intention that "Surrender" would be the title song. I seriously doubt Arnold would have had any time to incorporate Crow's song into his score. The schedule of that film was rushed enough as it was, and the same would have happened had Barry been composing.

    Barry was able to incorporate his “Thunderball” theme even after “Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang” got rejected late into the process.

    And FRWL of course.
    George Martin used LALD heavily too but was obviously very involved in that song.
    And Arnold amazingly did weave "Another Way to Die" into the score for QOS. As with his interpolations of the Bond theme, it's subtle but it's there. Could it have been more obvious or more in-your-face? Sure, but that wasn't really the nature of that particular score.

    That’s not good enough. And I’ve yet to see any concrete verification that he gave any nods in QOS. That’s just fandom giving him more credit than he ever really deserved. Oh, he used a guitar riff on some boat chase that didn’t even sound like Jack White but we’ll pretend it sound similar? That’s really flimsy.

    No, that’s silly. It’s in there at various points: not least notice how the whole film ends on a repeated piano note, just like the song does (the piano note is used elsewhere too). Another example that comes to mind is that if you listen to the cue where Fields is asked to help Bond look for the stationery you can hear the “Another one with the golden tongue Poisoning your fantasy” lyric melody played on a playful flute. There are more, but none which are very substantial.
    And if you don’t believe that there are several references to the song in the score, listen to the repeat of David Arnold’s Scala Radio Bond music show in a couple of weeks where he talks about this score and mentions how he put references to the song in there.
  • DCisaredDCisared Liverpool
    Posts: 1,329
    Zimmer said he hates bond films that don't use the title theme throughout the film in the score B-)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2021 Posts: 16,344
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't see any reason to think that, he's a professional film composer.

    Oh, certainly. Among the best and I wouldn't try and suggest otherwise. And as I said, I love both those scores! I've defended them quite often, it feels like. Especially Skyfall. It's a top Bond score to me, which isn't a popular opinion, I know.

    There are just certain things that make me wonder. Like, if you were composing a Bond film, wouldn't you be looking forward to integrating the title song into the score? (vs. having to be reminded?)

    And I still think lifting certain Skyfall cues verbatim for use in SPECTRE is one of the most questionable musical decisions in franchise history, even though I like them. (I recognize this was rumored to be a Mendes order after hearing the temp score, not a Newman choice). A momentary reprise here or there could have been terrific, but going with entire action cues at times just screamed of either laziness or unoriginality, even if it was totally unintended.

    (Funny/ironic how that doesn't bother me on other franchise films, though -- Zimmer did it all the time for Batman, Powell all the time for Bourne. But each time they reprised a cue in a subsequent film they also found subtle ways to evolve them. The Skyfall to SPECTRE jump didn't try to do that -- maybe that's it).

    Yes I was going to say it’s pretty common practice for a sequel to sound like the first film and use melodies and material again; your Bourne example is the first one which comes to mind, but it’s almost every sequel where the same composer is used: Elfman on Batman or Spider Man, Horner and Giacccino on Star Trek, Back To The Future etc. etc.. It’s evoking the same atmosphere. And it’s not like there isn’t new material in Spectre.

    On another note, here’s Field Trip from QoS, notice the blatant Another Way to Die quote at 7 seconds in:
  • HeinsenbergHeinsenberg France
    Posts: 48
    Obviously the whole QOS score is based on the song No Good About Goodbye. The theme is repeated throughout the movie.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2021 Posts: 16,344
    Obviously the whole QOS score is based on the song No Good About Goodbye. The theme is repeated throughout the movie.

    I believe Arnold has said he wrote No Good after the film, using that motif from the score. So it’s not really the song being used in the film, more like the film being used in the song.
  • Posts: 831
    Arnold gets nowhere near enough credit for how well, and how frequently, he incorporated AWTD into the score for QOS. And it transitions extremely well. (I think he actually enrichens our views of the song itself, showing us how Bondified it can become in a pure orchestral context).

    AWTD is such a weird, mixed bag of a thing. It's so close to being strong. At times, I think, it even legitimately is.

    If they'd let Alicia Keyes sing it herself with Jack White accompanying on guitar, and avoided copying the YKMN phrase verbatim for the opening and closing and come up with something more original, I feel it would have been much better received.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2021 Posts: 16,344
    I honestly don't understand why people don't like it; I think it works entirely. Maybe their voices don't combine well in some parts, but that's it. It really rocks properly in a way that YKMN doesn't really, and the drumming, guitar and marachi trumpets sound great.

    I think it's a shame that Arnold couldn't give it a bigger presence in the score, but I assume that it was a similar situation to the other films and it came too late in the process and he just had to give fleeting nods to it where he could (White was announced in July and the score recorded in September so I guess that's enough time to include some quotes). I think he could have even used YKMN a bit more (of course he only co-wrote that)- I'd have loved the Miami chase to have been basically a Barry-style big action statement of the theme, but he Mickey Mouses it a bit.
  • Posts: 559
    mtm wrote: »
    I honestly don't understand why people don't like it; I think it works entirely. Maybe their voices don't combine well in some parts, but that's it. It really rocks properly in a way that YKMN doesn't really, and the drumming, guitar and marachi trumpets sound great.

    I think it's a shame that Arnold couldn't give it a bigger presence in the score, but I assume that it was a similar situation to the other films and it came too late in the process and he just had to give fleeting nods to it where he could (White was announced in July and the score recorded in September so I guess that's enough time to include some quotes). I think he could have even used YKMN a bit more (of course he only co-wrote that)- I'd have loved the Miami chase to have been basically a Barry-style big action statement of the theme, but he Mickey Mouses it a bit.

    I think probably my most unpopular opinion is none of the Craig songs are low tier. Heck, I don't think there's a single Bond song I'd call "bad" or that I don't enjoy — but if I have to rank them, I don't think any of the Craig ones would be near the bottom.

    Of course, so much of it (with the exception of NTTD) is also the fact I enjoy the films so there's that connection complicating things 😂
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,344
    BMB007 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I honestly don't understand why people don't like it; I think it works entirely. Maybe their voices don't combine well in some parts, but that's it. It really rocks properly in a way that YKMN doesn't really, and the drumming, guitar and marachi trumpets sound great.

    I think it's a shame that Arnold couldn't give it a bigger presence in the score, but I assume that it was a similar situation to the other films and it came too late in the process and he just had to give fleeting nods to it where he could (White was announced in July and the score recorded in September so I guess that's enough time to include some quotes). I think he could have even used YKMN a bit more (of course he only co-wrote that)- I'd have loved the Miami chase to have been basically a Barry-style big action statement of the theme, but he Mickey Mouses it a bit.

    I think probably my most unpopular opinion is none of the Craig songs are low tier. Heck, I don't think there's a single Bond song I'd call "bad" or that I don't enjoy — but if I have to rank them, I don't think any of the Craig ones would be near the bottom.

    Yeah there's probably a couple of Barrys I might even put lower than them(!)
  • OOWolfOOWolf Savannah
    Posts: 140
    I'm really hoping that Zimmer's score will be melodic. He often seems to focus on sound designing and audio collages, so it'd be nice to get some memorable cues. David Arnold was indeed the last Bond composer to write music that worked for the respective films. Thomas Newman's scores on the other hand could have worked for any modern action/thriller -boring.

    To be completely honest, no one has come close to Barry. There is not a single John Barry Bond score that isn't replete of personality. His scores never seemed to take themselves too seriously, yet always provided a sense of excitement and urgency. More than anything, the cues were MEMORABLE! Always! I often have '007 and Counting' looping in my head or 'Capsule In Space' or 'Ice Chase'... To me, every Barry cue is as catchy as a good pop song. That's what I want from a Bond score!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2021 Posts: 16,344
    OOWolf wrote: »
    I'm really hoping that Zimmer's score will be melodic. He often seems to focus on sound designing and audio collages, so it'd be nice to get some memorable cues. David Arnold was indeed the last Bond composer to write music that worked for the respective films. Thomas Newman's scores on the other hand could have worked for any modern action/thriller -boring.

    Simply not true, they’re rich, lush and deep and expansive, clearly Bond but in a modern sense. Plus they add mood and depth. They’re not as easy to hum, but that doesn’t mean they don’t work.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,207
    OOWolf wrote: »
    I'm really hoping that Zimmer's score will be melodic. He often seems to focus on sound designing and audio collages, so it'd be nice to get some memorable cues. David Arnold was indeed the last Bond composer to write music that worked for the respective films. Thomas Newman's scores on the other hand could have worked for any modern action/thriller -boring.

    I was less keen on Newman's action scoring but his slower, more romantic and/or moody cues were beautiful.
  • OOWolfOOWolf Savannah
    Posts: 140
    mtm wrote: »
    OOWolf wrote: »
    I'm really hoping that Zimmer's score will be melodic. He often seems to focus on sound designing and audio collages, so it'd be nice to get some memorable cues. David Arnold was indeed the last Bond composer to write music that worked for the respective films. Thomas Newman's scores on the other hand could have worked for any modern action/thriller -boring.

    Simply not true, they’re rich, lush and deep and expansive, clearly Bond but in a modern sense. Plus they add mood and depth. They’re not as easy to hum, but that doesn’t mean they don’t work.

    Maybe to you and I'm glad you enjoy them. I can just say, from a personal standpoint, as a musician/composer, that it's often harder to write something simple, effective and melodic with a memorable pop sensibility than something that can easily become confounded and uninspired. The Bond scores of old sounded inspired!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,344
    OOWolf wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    OOWolf wrote: »
    I'm really hoping that Zimmer's score will be melodic. He often seems to focus on sound designing and audio collages, so it'd be nice to get some memorable cues. David Arnold was indeed the last Bond composer to write music that worked for the respective films. Thomas Newman's scores on the other hand could have worked for any modern action/thriller -boring.

    Simply not true, they’re rich, lush and deep and expansive, clearly Bond but in a modern sense. Plus they add mood and depth. They’re not as easy to hum, but that doesn’t mean they don’t work.

    Maybe to you and I'm glad you enjoy them. I can just say, from a personal standpoint, as a musician/composer, that it's often harder to write something simple, effective and melodic with a memorable pop sensibility than something that can easily become confounded and uninspired. The Bond scores of old sounded inspired!

    None of it is easy. Being a musician or not changes nothing about how successful they are. Maybe to you they sound boring, but that doesn’t mean that they are.
  • Posts: 559
    OOWolf wrote: »
    I'm really hoping that Zimmer's score will be melodic. He often seems to focus on sound designing and audio collages, so it'd be nice to get some memorable cues. David Arnold was indeed the last Bond composer to write music that worked for the respective films. Thomas Newman's scores on the other hand could have worked for any modern action/thriller -boring.

    I was less keen on Newman's action scoring but his slower, more romantic and/or moody cues were beautiful.

    That big haunting sound when they arrive at the estate in "Skyfall" — so good.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited August 2021 Posts: 8,180
    mtm wrote: »
    On another note, here’s Field Trip from QoS, notice the blatant Another Way to Die quote at 7 seconds in:

    A few scant seconds of nods is not good enough. That's about as substantial as John Barry nodding to LALD with a flute in TMWTGG. It's not the same as weaving the song into the soundtrack as a whole like FRWL or GF. So when fans claim QOS did just the same as those earlier films I call BS.


    And no, AWTD is trash. The worst title song for Bond. It absolutely deserves the derision it gets.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,207
    BMB007 wrote: »
    OOWolf wrote: »
    I'm really hoping that Zimmer's score will be melodic. He often seems to focus on sound designing and audio collages, so it'd be nice to get some memorable cues. David Arnold was indeed the last Bond composer to write music that worked for the respective films. Thomas Newman's scores on the other hand could have worked for any modern action/thriller -boring.

    I was less keen on Newman's action scoring but his slower, more romantic and/or moody cues were beautiful.

    That big haunting sound when they arrive at the estate in "Skyfall" — so good.

    Exactly! A great example.
  • DeerAtTheGatesDeerAtTheGates Belgium
    edited August 2021 Posts: 524
    mtm wrote: »
    On another note, here’s Field Trip from QoS, notice the blatant Another Way to Die quote at 7 seconds in:

    A few scant seconds of nods is not good enough. That's about as substantial as John Barry nodding to LALD with a flute in TMWTGG. It's not the same as weaving the song into the soundtrack as a whole like FRWL or GF. So when fans claim QOS did just the same as those earlier films I call BS.


    And no, AWTD is trash. The worst title song for Bond. It absolutely deserves the derision it gets.

    Perhaps the difference in annoyance about not quoting the title track lies in the popularity of the songs, especially when comparing QOS/AWTD and SF/SF.

    AWTD didn't have a very good reception, fans didn't like it very much and fans don't like it now. The general public could not tell you AWTD is a Bond song. And perhaps that's the reason people are forgiving when it comes to Arnold not using it as much in QOS: because it's hard to incorporate, the melody doesn't really work on its own, the song doesn't really evoke something from the film... To most people, it doesn't really matter that Arnold didn't use AWTD more often.

    Skyfall, on the other hand... People loved it. Bond fans liked it, the general public liked it, it was played everywhere, the melody sounds great, it incorporates the Bond theme, the plot is incorporated in the lyrics, so having an instrumental of the song play at the climactic Skyfall Manor scenes would've driven the point further home... Combine all that, and people are wondering far more why a hugely popular song, also outside of Bond, that got airtime on the radio weeks before release, was not heard beyond the titles and the one quotation at the casino.

    Yes, objectively Arnold did use AWTD as much as Newman used SF (which is to say not much), but the feeling is different.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2021 Posts: 16,344
    mtm wrote: »
    On another note, here’s Field Trip from QoS, notice the blatant Another Way to Die quote at 7 seconds in:

    A few scant seconds of nods is not good enough. That's about as substantial as John Barry nodding to LALD with a flute in TMWTGG. It's not the same as weaving the song into the soundtrack as a whole like FRWL or GF. So when fans claim QOS did just the same as those earlier films I call BS.

    I was responding to your statement "And I’ve yet to see any concrete verification that he gave any nods in QOS. That’s just fandom giving him more credit than he ever really deserved."
    I have given you concrete verification that he gave nods in QoS, and I have also pointed out that it was not just this flute quotation either. Please have the good grace to just accept that you were wrong about that.

    And no, AWTD is trash. The worst title song for Bond. It absolutely deserves the derision it gets.

    It's not trash, no.
    BMB007 wrote: »
    OOWolf wrote: »
    I'm really hoping that Zimmer's score will be melodic. He often seems to focus on sound designing and audio collages, so it'd be nice to get some memorable cues. David Arnold was indeed the last Bond composer to write music that worked for the respective films. Thomas Newman's scores on the other hand could have worked for any modern action/thriller -boring.

    I was less keen on Newman's action scoring but his slower, more romantic and/or moody cues were beautiful.

    That big haunting sound when they arrive at the estate in "Skyfall" — so good.

    Yes, it's gorgeous. And funnily enough just now on the radio they played 'Tennyson' and I was reminded of how great that track works in the film.
    I think M's theme is lovely too.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,180
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    On another note, here’s Field Trip from QoS, notice the blatant Another Way to Die quote at 7 seconds in:

    A few scant seconds of nods is not good enough. That's about as substantial as John Barry nodding to LALD with a flute in TMWTGG. It's not the same as weaving the song into the soundtrack as a whole like FRWL or GF. So when fans claim QOS did just the same as those earlier films I call BS.

    I was responding to your statement "And I’ve yet to see any concrete verification that he gave any nods in QOS. That’s just fandom giving him more credit than he ever really deserved."
    I have given you concrete verification that he gave nods in QoS, and I have also pointed out that it was not just this flute quotation either. Please have the good grace to just accept that you were wrong about that.

    Okay, I was wrong. He only did a scant few nods.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,344
    Yes it was a scant few, no-one said otherwise.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,180
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes it was a scant few, no-one said otherwise.

    Unless it's comments like this:
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    Arnold gets nowhere near enough credit for how well, and how frequently, he incorporated AWTD into the score for QOS. And it transitions extremely well. (I think he actually enrichens our views of the song itself, showing us how Bondified it can become in a pure orchestral context).

    Then I'm like...

    Futurama-Fry.jpg
  • edited August 2021 Posts: 440
    While I do like a lot of Newman's work on SP and SF, his action stuff doesn't really grab me all that much.

    Probably because it feels slightly neutered from his regular style, which is typically more unusually orchestrated and written.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,180
    The thing that peeves me is seeing fans doubt Newman's sincerity, and often use Arnold's fanboyism against Newman. As if him not being an overt Barry imitator makes him a "lesser" Bond composer, or worse, they try to claim that Newman actually hates Bond music and didn't actually want to score these films. Then there's those who don't even give him a honest chance, because they've built up Arnold as Barry's heir apparent and that anyone else scoring gets scrutinized and should be discarded so Arnold can reclaim his "rightful place".

    For me, Newman brings enough of the Bond flavor while at the same time putting his own style of scoring. That's really all I ever ask of any composer having a stab at Bond. George Martin, Marvin Hamlisch, Bill Conti, and Michael Kamen brought their signature styles which helps give the series variety. They're unique in that they bring something neither Barry or Arnold would have considered. Though the big difference between Newman and those one-off predecessors is that he comes from a more contemporary style of composing where it's less melodic and more rhythmic. That's how you get cues like "Snow Plane". Zimmer is pretty much the same, but since he actually contributed to the title song, we'll probably get a more melodic score.

    Eric Serra is a special case, because he was specifically brought in to re-invent the Bond sound for the 90s, but then EON got cold feet mid-way and wanted to go back to the classic sound and that caused a lot of headaches and bad communication. That's all on EON. They got what they asked of him, and then they didn't want it.
  • edited August 2021 Posts: 440
    While I do like a lot of Newman's work on SP and SF, his action stuff doesn't really grab me all that much.

    Probably because it feels slightly neutered from his regular style, which is typically more unusually orchestrated and written.

    Here's a great example of an action cue he wrote for a different film, which I think really sums up the style difference. Possibly either he and or EON thought this style might be a little too eccentric, though.



    @MakeshiftPython I'm in total agreement with you about Serra. Regardless of how one feels about his music for Goldeneye, it's not some shocking departure for him.

    EON and Campbell listened to his previous scores and decided that they wanted that particular sound. They approved his ideas for the score, looked over his written work/demos and approved those, and then allowed it to be recorded and mixed.

    After all that, I think Serra was totally in the right to not want to re-write/record his music to sound more John Barry-like mere weeks before the movie came out.
  • AgentJamesBond007AgentJamesBond007 Vesper’s grave
    Posts: 2,632
    mtm wrote: »
    On another note, here’s Field Trip from QoS, notice the blatant Another Way to Die quote at 7 seconds in:

    A few scant seconds of nods is not good enough. That's about as substantial as John Barry nodding to LALD with a flute in TMWTGG. It's not the same as weaving the song into the soundtrack as a whole like FRWL or GF. So when fans claim QOS did just the same as those earlier films I call BS.


    And no, AWTD is trash. The worst title song for Bond. It absolutely deserves the derision it gets.

    Let’s be real. The instrumental version of the song is a top tier Bond theme.
  • Posts: 572
    mtm wrote: »
    On another note, here’s Field Trip from QoS, notice the blatant Another Way to Die quote at 7 seconds in:

    A few scant seconds of nods is not good enough. That's about as substantial as John Barry nodding to LALD with a flute in TMWTGG. It's not the same as weaving the song into the soundtrack as a whole like FRWL or GF. So when fans claim QOS did just the same as those earlier films I call BS.


    And no, AWTD is trash. The worst title song for Bond. It absolutely deserves the derision it gets.

    Let’s be real. The instrumental version of the song is a top tier Bond theme.
    Where might one find this instrumental version?
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,583
    delfloria wrote: »
    Satorious wrote: »
    Better than Newman but "by the numbers" and predictable. I'll reserve judgement until I see the film. Was kinda hoping Zimmer would shake it up a bit - and maybe he will - Braam Braams Daaa...

    Any Barryesque or Arnold sound will be welcomed after the turged Newman piffle. The only great pieces from the Newman era were done by his assistants.

    Newman and his Grammy Award and Oscar nomination for SF thank you for your support.

    AP547501415046.jpg
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