NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Discuss Hans Zimmer's Score

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  • Posts: 3,333
    bondsum wrote: »
    No offence, but I don't think The Texas Chain Saw Massacre is a good example to draw upon when making musical comparisons between Bond and other franchises @DarthDimi.

    The genre is irrelevant. I think the point that @DarthDimi was making, was that a melodic score wouldn't work for a TCM film. Much the same was as lets say.... a goth rock score wouldn't work for Bond. That is how I read the post.
    Turner Classic Movies?
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,161
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Fair enough. I'm simply afraid that if we keep clinging to the perfection created by John Barry, we'll never be pleased anymore. Most composers these days seem to focus on other things than cute melodies.

    This is a valid point, but it's also one of the reasons why I'd love to see Bond find a composer willing to not embrace that trend.

    And yes, you're absolutely right, the likelihood is that despite this wish we'll continue to sound like croaky, groany old men longing for the glory days for some time to come. But hey, I'm game if you are!

    *blares You Only Live Twice on the car stereo*

    I'm game all right, which is why I wouldn't be opposed to Giaccino doing a Bond score at some point. A little while ago I referred to his Incredibles scores as only two steps away from Bond parody, but at least he has time and again proven to care about melodic richness, from his early video game work to his M:I scores to Star Trek and more. He could do a Bond score IMO, but already there are some here who seem incredibly opposed to that idea...
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 3,333
    Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
    Thanks. I agree that musical melodies wouldn't work particularly well within TCM movie, but that's where Bond differs from a horror movie. Bond used to have musical melodies throughout its soundtrack to tie-in with the title song. The trouble is composers like Thomas Newman can't write a pop song to save their life even with a gun against their head, so the task is handed over to someone who can, such as Adele or Sam Smith. In turn, this creates another problem, a clash of egos whereupon Mr. Newman refuses to incorporate the title song into the score. Instead we get ambient shapes and moody textures which are boring to listen to. Maybe that's another reason why I was fighting to stay awake when I first watched SF in the cinema? I'll admit I did like his PTS music for Spectre, though. The one and only exception.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Bond music, overall, isn't so rich in melody after all, or so it seems. If it weren't for Barry, the count would be incredibly low. Compare this to Williams' scores for Star Wars, in which he gave almost every single character his own theme! And even he hasn't been too keen on composing that many big themes in the last couple of Star Wars films anymore.

    He wrote some pretty good themes for The Force Awakens, such as Rey's, Kylo's, Finn's, Poe's and March of the Resistance. Unfortunately he hasn't come up with anything particularly memorable for The Last Jedi :|
  • Posts: 1,858
    All I have to do is listen to Arnold's "White Knight" and "Bike Chase" from TND and realize how much I miss him and the "Bond" sound from the series.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,180
    bondsum wrote: »
    It might be worth noting that the best beats of Bond music history have always been when someone did something DIFFERENT. Casting John Barry, giving a torch song to a pop singer from Wales, getting an ex Beatle to come up with a totally non-Beatles sound, allowing a pop band to create new sounds in '85, having a jazz veteran the kids didn't know anymore come in the heat of flower power come and record a love ballad for '69, giving a title song to a TV talent show winner so soon after she won and giving a song to a '90s rock star with zero linkage to Bond, Britain and cinema. Different is never the same as wrong. This Bond film will have a younger zeal to it - for many reasons.
    Giving the composing duties to John Barry wasn't "different" as he'd already shown his musical talent by rearranging Monty Norman's James Bond theme for Dr. No. The only reason that there was a theme at all was because, according to Norman himself, that it was an assistant to Broccoli and Saltzman that remarked: "See if you can come up with a good theme, because I think we'll get two films and a television series out of this!". You see, they weren't really thinking that far ahead at the time. Also, it's worth remembering that Norman struggled coming up with a theme, having his "Scottish theme" rejected. Even Peter Hunt said in post production that Norman's music "just doesn't seem to fit the picture somehow... I don't think it's working." Terrence Young was even more disparaging about it, referring to it as "mining disaster music" and feeling they had to bring someone else in on it. It was United Artists Music publishing that suggested John Barry, and it was Saltzman that was urged to get into contact with him. That's not to say Norman was out after Dr. No, as the producers brought him back to score Call Me Bwana immediately afterwards. However, Hunt would insert Barry's theme wherever he could to alleviate Norman's underwhelming score throughout Dr. No. It was both Hunt and Young that were most impressed with Barry, which was the real reason why he was hired instead of Norman on FRWL. The rest is cinematic history.

    However, you go on to mention the Louis Armstrong song from OHMSS but it was purely an artistic one and decidedly uncommercial as it didn't chart at all!! Of course, I'm not talking about the 1994 advertising Guinness campaign that used it for their TV commercial and which gave it a belated UK spot in the charts. Not that the likes of Thomas Newman could ever score a decent song to start with that could be re-released 24 years later and be a huge hit. That accolade belongs only to Barry. Fortunately, Barry steered clear of the Hippy sound in the late Sixties, too, which I notice you mention but don't give any reasons to how juxtaposed Louis Armstrong's song actually was to what was happening around it. In other words, it sounded rather antiquated at the time.

    You then mention George Martin, who wasn't such a leftfield choice as you make him out to be. I can distinctly remember thinking at the time, if it ain't Barry then George Martin's a good alternative as his "Theme One" score for Radio One demonstrates a Barry-esque sound. I think Martin even mentioned as much himself. I'd even go so far as to say Martin is really the only other Bond composer to deliver something fresh but at the same time sounding very Bondian out of all the non-Barry Bond composers. We've also had disco Bond music (Hamlisch and Conti) even Barry had a go himself with the end titles of MR but was sensible enough not to include it in his actual score.

    As for the TV talent show winner Sheena Easton, blah. She was just a performer, not an actual composer, and a last-minute replacement for Blondie to boot. "Different is never the same as wrong" doesn't mean that the end results can be underwhelming or poor. Neither does being different equate to being good, either. "This Bond film will have a younger zeal to it - for many reasons" but not for its lead star though, I might add. AVTAK also had a younger zeal about it, but look how that one turned out. A right old stinker in all but its title song performed by Duran Duran.

    The other thing I take exception to, not from you @CatchingBullets, but from those that witter on about change being good and moving forwards means making big changes in order to be successful, is that there's no proof to back it up. Outside of Bond, a lot of creative changes to franchises have had a detrimental effect on their box office results. Let's not forget that we've had big changes in the past on Bond, also. I'd counter that Moore going all slapstick in his later days was a big step-away from the more successful down-to-earth Connery Bond's. I'm sure some will try to brush that under the carpet and blame it on the changing taste of audiences in the Eighties, but it'll be a lie as the audience had some carryover from the Seventies. Without going into too much detail and writing a long thesis, people will make excuses where it suits them to backup their own claims and personal tastes.

    However, you can't deny there's a distinct "Bond Sound" that exists in the majority of the franchises DNA. Even when it isn't a Bond film, there's probably thousands of examples on Youtube where people comment on how Bondlike something sounds which isn't actually composed by Barry himself. Why is that? Maybe because it embraces Barry’s unique mix of jazz, rock, pop and traditional orchestral writing, or maybe whoever composed it understood what gave it that Barry sound and are trying to pay homage to it. But to say we need to move away from what Cubby claimed was “ultimately very important to the whole cinematic history of Bond” for something that is flavourless and tonally generic, doesn't make a whole lot of creative sense to me.

    Will Dan Romer be another vapid Thomas Newman clone, or will he at least try to understand the Bond sound and deliver something half-resembling one, I'm afraid remains to be heard? Of course, I'm hoping for the latter, but I won't hold my breath.

    Personally speaking, when I want something different from future Bond films it has nothing to do with believing that leads to a more successful installment at the box office, but simply that I want something artistically fresh for this long running series. Serra’s GE score IMO enriched the film and gave it a positively distinctive vibe, especially compared to the bland Arnold scores. That Duran Duran song that you seem to dismiss was for me a much needed shot in the arm for Bond songs, coming after a string of ballads trying to chase the success of “Nobody Does it Better”.

    Tradition has its merits, but every now and then I admire EON for allowing the filmmakers to do something different in a franchise that is largely formulaic. This goes as far back as Guy Hamilton injecting his own sensibilities that made GF what it is. John Barry experimenting with the moog synthesizer to give us the classic score in OHMSS. Allowing Dalton to bring Fleming’s Bond straight out of the pages instead of continuing the more superheroic interpretation made famous by Connery and Moore. The totally left field casting of Craig when they could have gone with a much safer choice.

    But I understand everyone has their preferences, opting for choices right for the franchise rather than what’s right for the individual film. Thankfully EON has shown to be more flexible.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,583
    Can't believe 'Severine' by Thomas Newman doesn't get mentioned on here. It's such a stunningly beautiful piece of music. The music he wrote for the Shanghai section of Skyfall is brilliant too. The homage to Herrmann is perfectly timed with the Hitchcockian part of that scene (where Craig jumps on the lift). I thought Mendes, Deakins and Newman elevated Bond to new heights in that section of the film.

    I’m with you 100%. Newman’s music for SF was gorgeous stuff. SP was good, too, but not at the same level.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,207
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Fair enough. I'm simply afraid that if we keep clinging to the perfection created by John Barry, we'll never be pleased anymore. Most composers these days seem to focus on other things than cute melodies.

    This is a valid point, but it's also one of the reasons why I'd love to see Bond find a composer willing to not embrace that trend.

    And yes, you're absolutely right, the likelihood is that despite this wish we'll continue to sound like croaky, groany old men longing for the glory days for some time to come. But hey, I'm game if you are!

    *blares You Only Live Twice on the car stereo*

    I'm game all right, which is why I wouldn't be opposed to Giaccino doing a Bond score at some point. A little while ago I referred to his Incredibles scores as only two steps away from Bond parody, but at least he has time and again proven to care about melodic richness, from his early video game work to his M:I scores to Star Trek and more. He could do a Bond score IMO, but already there are some here who seem incredibly opposed to that idea...

    I think he'd do a fine job. The Incredibles movies being Bond parodies is intentional. Brad Bird originally wanted Barry to score the first film, but he turned it down. Giacchino did everything he could to evoke the big band sensibilities of Barry's 60s efforts. You're absolutely right, Giacchino's scores are immensely rich - thankfully some of his more recent album releases have had a much wetter sound mix compared to his mid to late 00s releases, which sounded quite dry.

    I'd be all for him, personally. He showed great franchise respect when he took on Star Wars, so I'm sure the same would apply here.

    Anyway, Dan Romer.....

    I'm sure he'll do exactly what Fukanaga wants him to do. And if the glimpses of the film so far are any indication, it should please most of us - at least when it comes to some of the basics.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    I've been listening to Romer's The Innocent Man soundtrack and it's quite atmospheric and moody and I'm loving the use of the strings, I think he could produce some really great sinister cues and I'm definitely hearing melody but it's not blaring out.

    I agree what some are saying even though I'm no real fan of TN's scores in this era, there are some memorable moments definitely, some very inspired ones. I do think wanting any composer to be the next Barry is too much of an ask.

    Romer has a lot to prove, this is going to change his career significantly if he pulls it off. I don't think he's just going to deliver what he's done before and I'm sure he'll be researching what has gone before.

    It will be interesting to hear what sounds he uses, for instance Jamaica is unlikely to be some stock stereotypical sound associated with that place, I can see Romer delivering something authentic but not cliched.

    Barry was the melody king and very few composers have the ability he had, the bar was set very high and George Martin has come the closest.

    I think us as fans strive for that again but I'm afraid we are going to come up short. The music has been ripe for being reinvented instead of sounding like a tribute act.

    I think we should give Romer a chance and see if he comes up with the goods, I have a feeling this could be the most interesting score we've had in a long time.

    Dan it's over to you.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,583
    Shardlake wrote: »
    I've been listening to Romer's The Innocent Man soundtrack and it's quite atmospheric and moody and I'm loving the use of the strings, I think he could produce some really great sinister cues and I'm definitely hearing melody but it's not blaring out.

    I agree what some are saying even though I'm no real fan of TN's scores in this era, there are some memorable moments definitely, some very inspired ones. I do think wanting any composer to be the next Barry is too much of an ask.

    Romer has a lot to prove, this is going to change his career significantly if he pulls it off. I don't think he's just going to deliver what he's done before and I'm sure he'll be researching what has gone before.

    It will be interesting to hear what sounds he uses, for instance Jamaica is unlikely to be some stock stereotypical sound associated with that place, I can see Romer delivering something authentic but not cliched.

    Barry was the melody king and very few composers have the ability he had, the bar was set very high and George Martin has come the closest.

    I think us as fans strive for that again but I'm afraid we are going to come up short. The music has been ripe for being reinvented instead of sounding like a tribute act.

    I think we should give Romer a chance and see if he comes up with the goods, I have a feeling this could be the most interesting score we've had in a long time.

    Dan it's over to you.

    I have complete faith in CJF. This is his film, no doubt about it. And based on what we have seen, he knows exactly what he wants the film to look (and sound) like.
  • HildebrandRarityHildebrandRarity Centre international d'assistance aux personnes déplacées, Paris, France
    Posts: 480
    Walecs wrote: »
    He wrote some pretty good themes for The Force Awakens, such as Rey's, Kylo's, Finn's, Poe's and March of the Resistance. Unfortunately he hasn't come up with anything particularly memorable for The Last Jedi :|

    That was actually the point. He rearranged the themes with sneaky variations, which reflects the blurring of the lines in this particular movie. He even quoted Strauss' Elektra in the scene where Luke confronts Kylo Ren.

    https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-field-guide-to-the-musical-leitmotifs-of-star-wars
  • Posts: 678
    Sigh. I miss this.



    I hope Dan Romer gives us something as beautiful as that.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,161
    Sigh. I miss this.



    I hope Dan Romer gives us something as beautiful as that.

    I cannot agree with that. Arnold is laying it on too thick in that piece. His attempt at going for Barry 2.0 is especially crippled by his inability to capture the beauty of the scenery. Remember the journey to Piz Gloria? Or Bond lured to the pyramids in MR? Exotic, romantic, balanced. What Arnold did here (and what he more or less recreated for DAD and CR (Jinx comes out of the water, Bond comes out of the water in Nassau, Bond and Jinx make love in Cuba, Bond and Jinx make love amidst diamonds) has a pretentious aura to it, trying to sound "breathtakingly beautiful" while unnecessarily dark and dramatic at the same time. Even Serra knew how to capture "great beauty" better, in my opinion, e.g. when Bond gets lectured by Natalya. I understand what Arnold was going for but I don't think it was the proper path to take for those scenes.

    Also, listen carefully. There are always at least one or two instruments "yelling" so much louder than the rest to the point where it becomes annoying or even unpleasant. In the track you posted here, I take issue with those horns. Barry knew how to make his music sound like a whole, whereas Arnold never managed beyond the sum of individual parts, leading, at times, to complete cacophony.
  • Posts: 1,858
    TripAces wrote: »
    Can't believe 'Severine' by Thomas Newman doesn't get mentioned on here. It's such a stunningly beautiful piece of music. The music he wrote for the Shanghai section of Skyfall is brilliant too. The homage to Herrmann is perfectly timed with the Hitchcockian part of that scene (where Craig jumps on the lift). I thought Mendes, Deakins and Newman elevated Bond to new heights in that section of the film.

    I’m with you 100%. Newman’s music for SF was gorgeous stuff. SP was good, too, but not at the same level.

    Wasn't the Shanghai section jobbed out to one of Newman's assosiates to score? And yes, it one of my favorite pieces from that score.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,180
    TWINE tried a lot to recreate the magic of OHMSS, but never quite measured up IMO. It’s a shame because I love the whole concept of Bond falling in love with a woman who turns out to be the main villain all along. Bond letting his guard down and feeling resentful when seeing her true nature, and he didn’t suspect until it was too late.

    But God is that film dull in execution. It really needed a better director and script to come alive.
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 831
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Sigh. I miss this.



    I hope Dan Romer gives us something as beautiful as that.

    I cannot agree with that. Arnold is laying it on too thick in that piece. His attempt at going for Barry 2.0 is especially crippled by his inability to capture the beauty of the scenery. Remember the journey to Piz Gloria? Or Bond lured to the pyramids in MR? Exotic, romantic, balanced. What Arnold did here (and what he more or less recreated for DAD and CR (Jinx comes out of the water, Bond comes out of the water in Nassau, Bond and Jinx make love in Cuba, Bond and Jinx make love amidst diamonds) has a pretentious aura to it, trying to sound "breathtakingly beautiful" while unnecessarily dark and dramatic at the same time. Even Serra knew how to capture "great beauty" better, in my opinion, e.g. when Bond gets lectured by Natalya. I understand what Arnold was going for but I don't think it was the proper path to take for those scenes.

    Also, listen carefully. There are always at least one or two instruments "yelling" so much louder than the rest to the point where it becomes annoying or even unpleasant. In the track you posted here, I take issue with those horns. Barry knew how to make his music sound like a whole, whereas Arnold never managed beyond the sum of individual parts, leading, at times, to complete cacophony.

    @DarthDimi I absolutely respect your opinion, but to a lot of us I think this is really subjective stuff.

    I've never personally taken a whiff of pretension from Arnold's work, particularly in those tracks you've mentioned. If anything, part of why I loved Arnold's approach was that my ears always perceived him as having checked his ego and assumption at the door—he modernized John Barry's sound, knowingly.

    And I think some of what you've cited there is a great example of how perfectly passionate and valid opinions can come down on both sides. I don't have the slightest issue with that track, or a "yelling" horn that's unpleasant—I don't personally feel or hear any difference in orchestral balance between what's happening there and, say "Journey to Piz Gloria". (Agreed, by the way...breathtaking and one of Barry's best tracks ever. Maybe my favourite).

    To me, Arnold created epic scores that I can only describe as "full-bodied." He would use the full orchestra a lot, yes. And perhaps in places where John may have simplified or focused on a more unique sound. But Arnold's scores compliment those 90s films, to me, in a perfect way. That Bond demanded that sort of sound. And I can only speak for myself, but as a teenager at the time, they were absolutely a huge factor in why I became a passionate, lifelong fan of 007.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,207
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Sigh. I miss this.



    I hope Dan Romer gives us something as beautiful as that.

    I cannot agree with that. Arnold is laying it on too thick in that piece. His attempt at going for Barry 2.0 is especially crippled by his inability to capture the beauty of the scenery. Remember the journey to Piz Gloria? Or Bond lured to the pyramids in MR? Exotic, romantic, balanced. What Arnold did here (and what he more or less recreated for DAD and CR (Jinx comes out of the water, Bond comes out of the water in Nassau, Bond and Jinx make love in Cuba, Bond and Jinx make love amidst diamonds) has a pretentious aura to it, trying to sound "breathtakingly beautiful" while unnecessarily dark and dramatic at the same time. Even Serra knew how to capture "great beauty" better, in my opinion, e.g. when Bond gets lectured by Natalya. I understand what Arnold was going for but I don't think it was the proper path to take for those scenes.

    Also, listen carefully. There are always at least one or two instruments "yelling" so much louder than the rest to the point where it becomes annoying or even unpleasant. In the track you posted here, I take issue with those horns. Barry knew how to make his music sound like a whole, whereas Arnold never managed beyond the sum of individual parts, leading, at times, to complete cacophony.

    @DarthDimi I absolutely respect your opinion, but to a lot of us I think this is really subjective stuff.

    I've never personally taken a whiff of pretension from Arnold's work, particularly in those tracks you've mentioned. If anything, part of why I loved Arnold's approach was that my ears always perceived him as having checked his ego and assumption at the door—he modernized John Barry's sound, knowingly.

    And I think some of what you've cited there is a great example of how perfectly passionate and valid opinions can come down on both sides. I don't have the slightest issue with that track, or a "yelling" horn that's unpleasant—I don't personally feel or hear any difference in orchestral balance between what's happening there and, say "Journey to Piz Gloria". (Agreed, by the way...breathtaking and one of Barry's best tracks ever. Maybe my favourite).

    To me, Arnold created epic scores that I can only describe as "full-bodied." He would use the full orchestra a lot, yes. And perhaps in places where John may have simplified or focused on a more unique sound. But Arnold's scores compliment those 90s films, to me, in a perfect way. That Bond demanded that sort of sound. And I can only speak for myself, but as a teenager at the time, they were absolutely a huge factor in why I became a passionate, lifelong fan of 007.

    Have to agree, I find these most of these cues to be perfectly judged and not pretentious at all.

    I really am struggling with some of the Arnold opinions here. Even Nick Dodd has come under fire recently despite being one of the best conductors around. I'm finding it all quite bizarre.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited July 2019 Posts: 24,161
    I too was drawn to Arnold as a teenager, especially in the days of TND. I listened to that first (and vastly incomplete) soundtrack release all the time, even while playing videogames (with the games' soundtracks muted). Then the dark times came for me with TWINE and DAD, two scores overstuffed--fine, in my opinion ;-) --with pretention. When Arnold did that thing that he did, you know, having his orchestra play music in reverse, only to flip it around again after the recording, I thought he had lost it. CR is where he started to pick himself up again and QOS is actually my favourite of Arnold's Bond scores: controlled and biting off less than it can chew rather than more.

    I completely agree that Arnold's scores complemented the films. When the films went bonkers, so did Arnold's music (see above) and when they matured again, Arnold followed the trend. Lest I be misunderstood, I have never regretted Arnold's involvement with the Bond films. He certainly cared about them as much as any fan would. I merely cannot defend the track singled out a few posts ago as something we really need more of in the next Bond film. That, to me, is a terrible choice. If anything, I would like more QOS, but certainly not more TND, TWINE or DAD for the next Bond score.

    Lastly, of course all of this is subjective stuff. When I state my opinion and taste, I do so without any presumptions about their validity. ;-)
  • Posts: 678
    Yeah I don't agree with DarthDimi at all. I think that's one of the strongest tracks in TWINE, I sense no pretension from it but rather complete beauty that makes great company with the visuals in that part. It's basically candy to my ears as the best Bond tracks generally are.
  • Posts: 3,274
    Sigh. I miss this.



    I hope Dan Romer gives us something as beautiful as that.

    +1. Another beautiful track from Arnold. Perfectly captures the beauty of the scene, which is a homage to OHMSS.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    For me personally, wanting a more memorable Bond score that is melody heavy isn't some "dogma" as someone put it. It's a passionate desire. When I first saw GoldenEye at the ripe age of six years old and heard the gunbarrel for it for the very first time, my mind was blown. Hearing that along with the final half of The GoldenEye Overture was one of the most exciting moments of my life and childhood. From that moment on I've held music in Bond films to a much higher standard to that of other films. Granted GoldenEye isn't a typical Bond score and it certainly lacks the classic John Barry style brass bar the Archives Escape/Tank Chase music, wonderfully done by John Altman to give GoldenEye's score a tiny bit of that classic Bond music feel. It was fantastic. Music in Bond films isn't a background element or an extra standing in the background. It's a major character. It changes and adapts to the locations of the world that Bond travels to. It's Bond's invisible partner who joins him on his adventure and emphasizes the gravitas of his adventure.

    From a young age music in film and video games have been something I've cherished for a long time now. It's really opened my mind and shaped my tastes in music. I simply love complex and melodic music. It speaks volumes to me. It was always exciting to hear a bold and exciting movie score. It didn't matter if the movie was good or bad. If the music was fantastic, I'd tune right in. Music is usually the first thing I notice when watching a movie or playing a game.

    I'm not one who is enjoying the direction contemporary film music is at at the moment. I find many film soundtracks of the present sounding very similar to one another like they were taken from some royalty free website. It's disappointing to someone like me who very much enjoys film music to hear so many soundtracks today become so generic and forgettable.

    I wasn't much of a fan of David Arnold when I was younger. I just followed the majority opinion for the longest time. It wasn't until I started collecting the soundtracks for the Bond films and immersed myself in their great music that I got to listen to them over and over again, absorbing them. People say Arnold overdoes the techno but that's not true at all. In an interview for TND he broke the film's score down into three parts.

    The beginning is, Bond is back. It's the classic style John Barry established. The Hamburg sections of the film is a little more techno driven to represent the modern world and Carver's technical prowess. The final half of the film uses Asian style instrumentation. Having listened to the newly released expanded edition of TWINE's score, there is very little techno in it. Die Another Day uses a bit more techno but it's never overbearing. It's just a shame the film versions of some tracks that didn't use the electronic elements weren't released in the expanded DAD soundtrack.

    I very much enjoy David Arnold's work. He knows and respects the Bond sound. He updated it the right way for the 90's and 2000's. His music is very much missed.

    When Skyfall came around, I didn't know anything of Thomas Newman's work other than Wall-E which was a soundtack I very much enjoyed. It was rather melodic and memorable to my ears. I think his score for Skyfall is fine. It's not great but it just isn't very memorable to me. It was fine for a one off. Then came Spectre. I was willing to give Newman another chance but after hearing how much of the score is just reused from Skyfall I was just so annoyed. Older Bond films reused a track or two in the Connery/Lazenby years but Spectre reuses 80% of Skyfall's soundtrack. As someone who enjoys hearing new music with each new Bond outing, Spectre's score was a big disappointment for sure.

    The basic foundation of the Bond sound is, a big band orchestra and brass. That is the basis for the Bond sound. Other one off composers used that foundation and then added a new ingredient to it. George Martin infused a funky 70's groove to it, and it was fantastic. Bill Conti infused 80's disco to the Bond sound resulting in an interesting and enjoyable spin on the Bond sound. Marvin Hamlich infused 70's disco to the Bond sound, though I'm not the biggest fan of his score for TSWLM. Though I do like that he did a new arrangement of Barry's "Stalking" track from FRWL when Bond and Anya are looking for Jaws and The Tanker is a very nice track as well. Michael Kamen was a bit of a proto Arnold. He went for a bigger more intensive sound for his score to LTK and for subtle moments used latin guitars. While Eric Serra was the most radical departure, It still very much has the Bond sound. Especially tracks like The Severnaya suite and That's What Keeps You Alone. Those scores never drone on. There's never a dull moment. There's always some sort of melody or theme.

    With Newman it's frustrating. He did a few tracks I enjoy. Los Muertos Vivos Estan being my favorite track by Newman. I wish he used the Bond theme more like this because if he wasn't so against using it he could have been among one of the greats. People saying the Bond theme gets overused in FRWL or TND. I can't agree to that at all. The Bond theme is one of Bond's defining traits. To remove that outright or just slap it in the end credits is just an insult. When I go to see a Bond film, I'd like to hear it used more than just in the end credits. I have over 20 different versions of the James Bond theme and enjoy listening to them one after another. The Bond theme never gets old or loses it's touch. It's just not a Bond movie without it.

    I'm just rambling at this point so I'll leave it at that. I'm just someone very passionate about Bond music. Wanting something more memorable and classic, isn't dogma. It's love for something I've been a fan of for just over 20 years now. Peace out.



  • edited July 2019 Posts: 3,333
    That Duran Duran song that you seem to dismiss was for me a much needed shot in the arm for Bond songs, coming after a string of ballads trying to chase the success of “Nobody Does it Better”.
    Maybe I didn't make myself clear but I was trying to say the Duran Duran song was the "only" good thing to come out of the movie, the rest was a stinker.
  • Posts: 4,044
    bondsum wrote: »
    That Duran Duran song that you seem to dismiss was for me a much needed shot in the arm for Bond songs, coming after a string of ballads trying to chase the success of “Nobody Does it Better”.
    Maybe I didn't make myself clear but I was trying to say the Duran Duran song was the "only" good thing to come out of the movie, the rest was a stinker.

    Not even keen on the Moore - Macnee banter?
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Murdock wrote: »
    For me personally, wanting a more memorable Bond score that is melody heavy isn't some "dogma" as someone put it. It's a passionate desire. When I first saw GoldenEye at the ripe age of six years old and heard the gunbarrel for it for the very first time, my mind was blown. Hearing that along with the final half of The GoldenEye Overture was one of the most exciting moments of my life and childhood. From that moment on I've held music in Bond films to a much higher standard to that of other films. Granted GoldenEye isn't a typical Bond score and it certainly lacks the classic John Barry style brass bar the Archives Escape/Tank Chase music, wonderfully done by John Altman to give GoldenEye's score a tiny bit of that classic Bond music feel. It was fantastic. Music in Bond films isn't a background element or an extra standing in the background. It's a major character. It changes and adapts to the locations of the world that Bond travels to. It's Bond's invisible partner who joins him on his adventure and emphasizes the gravitas of his adventure.

    From a young age music in film and video games have been something I've cherished for a long time now. It's really opened my mind and shaped my tastes in music. I simply love complex and melodic music. It speaks volumes to me. It was always exciting to hear a bold and exciting movie score. It didn't matter if the movie was good or bad. If the music was fantastic, I'd tune right in. Music is usually the first thing I notice when watching a movie or playing a game.

    I'm not one who is enjoying the direction contemporary film music is at at the moment. I find many film soundtracks of the present sounding very similar to one another like they were taken from some royalty free website. It's disappointing to someone like me who very much enjoys film music to hear so many soundtracks today become so generic and forgettable.

    I wasn't much of a fan of David Arnold when I was younger. I just followed the majority opinion for the longest time. It wasn't until I started collecting the soundtracks for the Bond films and immersed myself in their great music that I got to listen to them over and over again, absorbing them. People say Arnold overdoes the techno but that's not true at all. In an interview for TND he broke the film's score down into three parts.

    The beginning is, Bond is back. It's the classic style John Barry established. The Hamburg sections of the film is a little more techno driven to represent the modern world and Carver's technical prowess. The final half of the film uses Asian style instrumentation. Having listened to the newly released expanded edition of TWINE's score, there is very little techno in it. Die Another Day uses a bit more techno but it's never overbearing. It's just a shame the film versions of some tracks that didn't use the electronic elements weren't released in the expanded DAD soundtrack.

    I very much enjoy David Arnold's work. He knows and respects the Bond sound. He updated it the right way for the 90's and 2000's. His music is very much missed.

    When Skyfall came around, I didn't know anything of Thomas Newman's work other than Wall-E which was a soundtack I very much enjoyed. It was rather melodic and memorable to my ears. I think his score for Skyfall is fine. It's not great but it just isn't very memorable to me. It was fine for a one off. Then came Spectre. I was willing to give Newman another chance but after hearing how much of the score is just reused from Skyfall I was just so annoyed. Older Bond films reused a track or two in the Connery/Lazenby years but Spectre reuses 80% of Skyfall's soundtrack. As someone who enjoys hearing new music with each new Bond outing, Spectre's score was a big disappointment for sure.

    The basic foundation of the Bond sound is, a big band orchestra and brass. That is the basis for the Bond sound. Other one off composers used that foundation and then added a new ingredient to it. George Martin infused a funky 70's groove to it, and it was fantastic. Bill Conti infused 80's disco to the Bond sound resulting in an interesting and enjoyable spin on the Bond sound. Marvin Hamlich infused 70's disco to the Bond sound, though I'm not the biggest fan of his score for TSWLM. Though I do like that he did a new arrangement of Barry's "Stalking" track from FRWL when Bond and Anya are looking for Jaws and The Tanker is a very nice track as well. Michael Kamen was a bit of a proto Arnold. He went for a bigger more intensive sound for his score to LTK and for subtle moments used latin guitars. While Eric Serra was the most radical departure, It still very much has the Bond sound. Especially tracks like The Severnaya suite and That's What Keeps You Alone. Those scores never drone on. There's never a dull moment. There's always some sort of melody or theme.

    With Newman it's frustrating. He did a few tracks I enjoy. Los Muertos Vivos Estan being my favorite track by Newman. I wish he used the Bond theme more like this because if he wasn't so against using it he could have been among one of the greats. People saying the Bond theme gets overused in FRWL or TND. I can't agree to that at all. The Bond theme is one of Bond's defining traits. To remove that outright or just slap it in the end credits is just an insult. When I go to see a Bond film, I'd like to hear it used more than just in the end credits. I have over 20 different versions of the James Bond theme and enjoy listening to them one after another. The Bond theme never gets old or loses it's touch. It's just not a Bond movie without it.

    I'm just rambling at this point so I'll leave it at that. I'm just someone very passionate about Bond music. Wanting something more memorable and classic, isn't dogma. It's love for something I've been a fan of for just over 20 years now. Peace out.



    =D> =D> =D>

    One thing I recently realized is that the SPECTRE score doesn't seem to fit the movie the way Skyfall fits its movie.

    Skyfall is a very intimate movie, it delves into Bond's past, M's past, their relationship, their mistakes and secrets haunting them, and it doesn't have many action scenes. The PTS and the Skyfall battle are arguably the only big action pieces in the movie, everything else is very low key. And Newman's score works for that; it's made of moody pieces that accompany the intimate scenes very well.

    SPECTRE, on the other hand, is a strange hybrid which tries to be a Craig film and a Moore film at the same time; it's got some big action pieces (the PTS, the underwhelming car chase, the plane chase, the one at Blofeld's lair and the final battle in London) and Newman's score doesn't seem to fit that. The fact that they reused a lot of his music from Skyfall makes this even worse; maybe had Newman been able to write new pieces for SPECTRE his score might have done a more serviceable job, instead Mendes decided to take music which had been written for a very different movie and shoehorned it here.

    Skyfall soundtrack is actually pretty good; it's got some good action music (Grand Bazaar, Silhouette Fight, Kill Them First, She's Mine) and very good moody music (The Chimera, Brave New World, Day Wasted, Drive to Skyfall, Tennyson are great and Severine's theme is lovely).

    SPECTRE's score, on the other hand, has very few memorable pieces. Los Muertos Vivos Estan is arguably the best piece in the score, and the movie really needed more music like that. The Writing's on the wall instrumental is beautiful, too bad it wasn't even written by Newman as he couldn't bother weaving it into the score, proving he doesn't care about Bond and a 50+ years tradition as much as he cares about getting his paycheck and that's it. The two love themes, Donna Lucia and Madeleine, are also pretty good and then there's the recurring piano theme from Secret Room which is also rather fitting for the movie.
    Everything else is rather forgettable or just a Skyfall rehash, unfortunately.
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 3,274
    Walecs wrote: »
    Mendes decided to take music which had been written for a very different movie and shoehorned it here.

    As long as it fits. And even Barry did that. The Romeo and Juliet suite and the theme for Magnficicent Seven in MR, for example. Most Bond movies have music that is from somewhere else, and from even entirely different composers: Here's Vivaldi in SP (from 00:30):




  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    True, even FRWL's climax reused the music from DN's climax. It's not wrong if it's used once in the movies, it's a problem if more than one third of the music in the movie is rehash from the previous movie.
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 831
    Walecs wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    For me personally, wanting a more memorable Bond score that is melody heavy isn't some "dogma" as someone put it. It's a passionate desire. When I first saw GoldenEye at the ripe age of six years old and heard the gunbarrel for it for the very first time, my mind was blown. Hearing that along with the final half of The GoldenEye Overture was one of the most exciting moments of my life and childhood. From that moment on I've held music in Bond films to a much higher standard to that of other films. Granted GoldenEye isn't a typical Bond score and it certainly lacks the classic John Barry style brass bar the Archives Escape/Tank Chase music, wonderfully done by John Altman to give GoldenEye's score a tiny bit of that classic Bond music feel. It was fantastic. Music in Bond films isn't a background element or an extra standing in the background. It's a major character. It changes and adapts to the locations of the world that Bond travels to. It's Bond's invisible partner who joins him on his adventure and emphasizes the gravitas of his adventure.

    From a young age music in film and video games have been something I've cherished for a long time now. It's really opened my mind and shaped my tastes in music. I simply love complex and melodic music. It speaks volumes to me. It was always exciting to hear a bold and exciting movie score. It didn't matter if the movie was good or bad. If the music was fantastic, I'd tune right in. Music is usually the first thing I notice when watching a movie or playing a game.

    I'm not one who is enjoying the direction contemporary film music is at at the moment. I find many film soundtracks of the present sounding very similar to one another like they were taken from some royalty free website. It's disappointing to someone like me who very much enjoys film music to hear so many soundtracks today become so generic and forgettable.

    I wasn't much of a fan of David Arnold when I was younger. I just followed the majority opinion for the longest time. It wasn't until I started collecting the soundtracks for the Bond films and immersed myself in their great music that I got to listen to them over and over again, absorbing them. People say Arnold overdoes the techno but that's not true at all. In an interview for TND he broke the film's score down into three parts.

    The beginning is, Bond is back. It's the classic style John Barry established. The Hamburg sections of the film is a little more techno driven to represent the modern world and Carver's technical prowess. The final half of the film uses Asian style instrumentation. Having listened to the newly released expanded edition of TWINE's score, there is very little techno in it. Die Another Day uses a bit more techno but it's never overbearing. It's just a shame the film versions of some tracks that didn't use the electronic elements weren't released in the expanded DAD soundtrack.

    I very much enjoy David Arnold's work. He knows and respects the Bond sound. He updated it the right way for the 90's and 2000's. His music is very much missed.

    When Skyfall came around, I didn't know anything of Thomas Newman's work other than Wall-E which was a soundtack I very much enjoyed. It was rather melodic and memorable to my ears. I think his score for Skyfall is fine. It's not great but it just isn't very memorable to me. It was fine for a one off. Then came Spectre. I was willing to give Newman another chance but after hearing how much of the score is just reused from Skyfall I was just so annoyed. Older Bond films reused a track or two in the Connery/Lazenby years but Spectre reuses 80% of Skyfall's soundtrack. As someone who enjoys hearing new music with each new Bond outing, Spectre's score was a big disappointment for sure.

    The basic foundation of the Bond sound is, a big band orchestra and brass. That is the basis for the Bond sound. Other one off composers used that foundation and then added a new ingredient to it. George Martin infused a funky 70's groove to it, and it was fantastic. Bill Conti infused 80's disco to the Bond sound resulting in an interesting and enjoyable spin on the Bond sound. Marvin Hamlich infused 70's disco to the Bond sound, though I'm not the biggest fan of his score for TSWLM. Though I do like that he did a new arrangement of Barry's "Stalking" track from FRWL when Bond and Anya are looking for Jaws and The Tanker is a very nice track as well. Michael Kamen was a bit of a proto Arnold. He went for a bigger more intensive sound for his score to LTK and for subtle moments used latin guitars. While Eric Serra was the most radical departure, It still very much has the Bond sound. Especially tracks like The Severnaya suite and That's What Keeps You Alone. Those scores never drone on. There's never a dull moment. There's always some sort of melody or theme.

    With Newman it's frustrating. He did a few tracks I enjoy. Los Muertos Vivos Estan being my favorite track by Newman. I wish he used the Bond theme more like this because if he wasn't so against using it he could have been among one of the greats. People saying the Bond theme gets overused in FRWL or TND. I can't agree to that at all. The Bond theme is one of Bond's defining traits. To remove that outright or just slap it in the end credits is just an insult. When I go to see a Bond film, I'd like to hear it used more than just in the end credits. I have over 20 different versions of the James Bond theme and enjoy listening to them one after another. The Bond theme never gets old or loses it's touch. It's just not a Bond movie without it.

    I'm just rambling at this point so I'll leave it at that. I'm just someone very passionate about Bond music. Wanting something more memorable and classic, isn't dogma. It's love for something I've been a fan of for just over 20 years now. Peace out.



    =D> =D> =D>

    One thing I recently realized is that the SPECTRE score doesn't seem to fit the movie the way Skyfall fits its movie.

    Skyfall is a very intimate movie, it delves into Bond's past, M's past, their relationship, their mistakes and secrets haunting them, and it doesn't have many action scenes. The PTS and the Skyfall battle are arguably the only big action pieces in the movie, everything else is very low key. And Newman's score works for that; it's made of moody pieces that accompany the intimate scenes very well.

    SPECTRE, on the other hand, is a strange hybrid which tries to be a Craig film and a Moore film at the same time; it's got some big action pieces (the PTS, the underwhelming car chase, the plane chase, the one at Blofeld's lair and the final battle in London) and Newman's score doesn't seem to fit that. The fact that they reused a lot of his music from Skyfall makes this even worse; maybe had Newman been able to write new pieces for SPECTRE his score might have done a more serviceable job, instead Mendes decided to take music which had been written for a very different movie and shoehorned it here.

    Skyfall soundtrack is actually pretty good; it's got some good action music (Grand Bazaar, Silhouette Fight, Kill Them First, She's Mine) and very good moody music (The Chimera, Brave New World, Day Wasted, Drive to Skyfall, Tennyson are great and Severine's theme is lovely).

    SPECTRE's score, on the other hand, has very few memorable pieces. Los Muertos Vivos Estan is arguably the best piece in the score, and the movie really needed more music like that. The Writing's on the wall instrumental is beautiful, too bad it wasn't even written by Newman as he couldn't bother weaving it into the score, proving he doesn't care about Bond and a 50+ years tradition as much as he cares about getting his paycheck and that's it. The two love themes, Donna Lucia and Madeleine, are also pretty good and then there's the recurring piano theme from Secret Room which is also rather fitting for the movie.
    Everything else is rather forgettable or just a Skyfall rehash, unfortunately.

    Some really great points here.

    My chief problem with SPECTRE (a film I generally love, and I'm even a fan of Newman's work) is that there's some straight-up misalignment in its direction. And this is a great example of how.

    Mendes was very consciously trying to make a different kind of Bond film—bigger, brasher, more classic—and yet he tethered key elements of it to his Skyfall approach without similarly maturing them. The music's a great example. SPECTRE demanded, frankly, more of a "David Arnold-style" score I think. Which is why re-using some of those Skyfall pieces sticks out in such a weird way. They don't not work. They just don't work nearly as well as something original, tailored to the film they're in, may have worked.

    That, and there's little point shooting those beautiful locations with such a talented cinematographer and then applying a piss-yellow colour grade to it all. ;)
  • Posts: 4,044
    Zekidk wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    Mendes decided to take music which had been written for a very different movie and shoehorned it here.

    As long as it fits. And even Barry did that. The Romeo and Juliet suite and the theme for Magnficicent Seven in MR, for example. Most Bond movies have music that is from somewhere else, and from even entirely different composers: Here's Vivaldi in SP (from 00:30):




    It’s much more common in movies to use source music like those classical pieces. Much less common to just plunder a previous movie for soundtrack ideas.
  • DoctorNoDoctorNo USA-Maryland
    Posts: 755
    SP... I like the Rome melodic cue a lot, though half of the song is ambient nothingness which makes me only half love it. I would like the Los Muertos song for its great use of the Bond theme on the rooftops but the start in the hotel room, taking off the mask, uses a clarinet/oboe intro of the theme a la Henry Mancini. It annoyed me the first time I saw it and still does..Its not a Pink Panther movie Newman. Ape the Bond franchise not another’s. Hate the SF rehash like everyone else, but there’s also a lot of dour music in the second half which really sets a dreary tone and is totally inappropriate for a Bond movie. Then there’s the climatic London boat chase where the score is offensively horrible. I don’t dislike SF.. Not greatness but it’s good, though the bond theme with the car exploding in the end was lame.

    Romer... no one’s talking about his ‘trademark’ plucky strings used in all his scores. It’s a safe bet we’re getting a plucky string Bond score, with little brass (seriously brass rarely exists in his scores), and then the ambient sounds of little melody. It will be interesting to see if he gets the larger than life quality to Bond, wants to show some or any nods to tradition, or just scores it like he would any of his other works... and I’m sorry I’m not hearing great diverse range the way others are claiming about his scores. But I realize time wise his career has been limited, so it’s a big question mark to find out what his range and what he delivers will be... fingers crossed it’s great... but I’m not going to be surprised either if it ends up being kind of just there with a nice moment or two and then forgettable.

    One last thing... people keep defending the ambient style as being appropriate to a director’s vision making it “great.” While it may fit a scene like wallpaper or something unnoticed, it doesn’t actually make it great, it can just be “there.” Conversely, there are scores like John William’s and John Barry’s who elevate the material as is the case with Star Wars and Bond. That’s a rare thing and obviously becomes beloved by fans and it’s not nostalgia, it’s just love of great work.
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