NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Discuss Hans Zimmer's Score

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  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    edited July 2019 Posts: 1,261
    Walecs wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    Newman didn't use it too much simply because he doesn't like using other people's works (hence why he didn't weave the theme song into the score).
    Not true. He used both. SF in Macao, SP in Morocco.
    He didn't. EON asked him to do so and he didn't even bother, so two different people (I can't remember their names but you'll easily find them on the Internet) did the instrumentals that we hear in the movies.

    Well, for years I believed that story. But then somebody here at the forum said, that TN had his own orchestrations for the Bond theme, but MGW and BB insited to use Arnold's version from CR, apparently because they did not want to have to pay more royalties to Monty Norman, who dragged EON and many others through the courts. Now I am not an insider, and I don't know, which story is the true one.

    EDIT: I was not too happy to learn that Eric Serra would compose the GE score, I could bnot imagine him to deliver a Bondian score. But then, apart from the dreadful "Ladies First" and the tank chase score (which was replaced by John Altman's version of the Bond theme), I quite liked it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    Well, for years I believed that story. But then somebody here at the forum said, that TN had his own orchestrations for the Bond theme, but MGW and BB insited to use Arnold's version from CR, apparently because they did not want to have to pay more royalties to Monty Norman, who dragged EON and many others through the courts. Now I am not an insider, and I don't know, which story is the true one.

    We fans tend to speculate a lot. The idea of MGW and BB insisting on using Arnold's arrangement wouldn't surprise me, but if anyone can verify that it would be even better.

    Many suspected Newman of just being lazy for recycling old cues, but thanks to @Murdock for clearing it up that it's on Lee Smith and Mendes for using what should have just been a standard temp score.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Walecs wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    Newman didn't use it too much simply because he doesn't like using other people's works (hence why he didn't weave the theme song into the score).
    Not true. He used both. SF in Macao, SP in Morocco.
    He didn't. EON asked him to do so and he didn't even bother, so two different people (I can't remember their names but you'll easily find them on the Internet) did the instrumentals that we hear in the movies.

    Well, for years I believed that story. But then somebody here at the forum said, that TN had his own orchestrations for the Bond theme, but MGW and BB insited to use Arnold's version from CR, apparently because they did not want to have to pay more royalties to Monty Norman, who dragged EON and many others through the courts. Now I am not an insider, and I don't know, which story is the true one.

    EDIT: I was not too happy to learn that Eric Serra would compose the GE score, I could bnot imagine him to deliver a Bondian score. But then, apart from the dreadful "Ladies First" and the tank chase score (which was replaced by John Altman's version of the Bond theme), I quite liked it.
    I'm very skeptical of this. If they decided to minimize the use of the Bond theme because they don't want to pay royalties to Norman, then why was the theme used in such a subtle way in CR and QoS, so much subtly that even most fans didn't notice that it was used multiple times, instead of using a full, recognizable rendition or just not use it at all?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    I’m partial to the idea that holding back the theme in CR taught the filmmakers not to rely on the Bond theme as a crutch for later films. IMO that played a part in making QOS Arnold’s best score, who back then overused the theme during the Brosnan era. It’s better to use it sparingly.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    Walecs wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    Newman didn't use it too much simply because he doesn't like using other people's works (hence why he didn't weave the theme song into the score).
    Not true. He used both. SF in Macao, SP in Morocco.
    He didn't. EON asked him to do so and he didn't even bother, so two different people (I can't remember their names but you'll easily find them on the Internet) did the instrumentals that we hear in the movies.

    Well, for years I believed that story. But then somebody here at the forum said, that TN had his own orchestrations for the Bond theme, but MGW and BB insited to use Arnold's version from CR, apparently because they did not want to have to pay more royalties to Monty Norman, who dragged EON and many others through the courts. Now I am not an insider, and I don't know, which story is the true one.

    EDIT: I was not too happy to learn that Eric Serra would compose the GE score, I could bnot imagine him to deliver a Bondian score. But then, apart from the dreadful "Ladies First" and the tank chase score (which was replaced by John Altman's version of the Bond theme), I quite liked it.
    I'm very skeptical of this. If they decided to minimize the use of the Bond theme because they don't want to pay royalties to Norman, then why was the theme used in such a subtle way in CR and QoS, so much subtly that even most fans didn't notice that it was used multiple times, instead of using a full, recognizable rendition or just not use it at all?

    Yeah, I don't buy it either. Norman receives royalties every time the theme is played in a film regardless of whether it's a new rendition or not. His claim doesn't end if it's re-orchestrated. If they used Arnold's "The Name's Bond, James Bond" instead of having Newman re-record it, they would still have to pay royalties.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    I’m partial to the idea that holding back the theme in CR taught the filmmakers not to rely on the Bond theme as a crutch for later films. IMO that played a part in making QOS Arnold’s best score, who back then overused the theme during the Brosnan era. It’s better to use it sparingly.

    It’s been missing too long now, though. Nearly 20 years without a full on Bond theme blaring is unacceptable. They should use it in the PTS. It’s wasted over the end credits.

    Screw the Navy uniform and the skiing and all the other irrelevances people want to see. Craig backed by the Bond theme in an action scene is a must before he departs.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    RC7 wrote: »
    I’m partial to the idea that holding back the theme in CR taught the filmmakers not to rely on the Bond theme as a crutch for later films. IMO that played a part in making QOS Arnold’s best score, who back then overused the theme during the Brosnan era. It’s better to use it sparingly.

    It’s been missing too long now, though. Nearly 20 years without a full on Bond theme blaring is unacceptable. They should use it in the PTS. It’s wasted over the end credits.

    Screw the Navy uniform and the skiing and all the other irrelevances people want to see. Craig backed by the Bond theme in an action scene is a must before he departs.

    100% this. Give me that Bond theme goodness.
  • Posts: 3,333
    Yeah, I don't buy it either. Norman receives royalties every time the theme is played in a film regardless of whether it's a new rendition or not. His claim doesn't end if it's re-orchestrated. If they used Arnold's "The Name's Bond, James Bond" instead of having Newman re-record it, they would still have to pay royalties.
    Not sure how accurate this is but according to the Roger Ebert site on all the Bond gunbarrel arrangements, it says this...

    "Thomas Newman’s approach to the James Bond theme was to base it on arrangements by Arnold, mainly the finale cue for "Casino Royale," entitled 'The Name's Bond ... James Bond.' Like "Quantum," "Skyfall" ended with the gun barrel, while "Spectre" opened with it, but both were based on Arnold's cue. It's a credit to David Arnold that his interpretation of the classic John Barry arrangement of Monty Norman's theme is valued so highly."

    So according to their research Thomas Newman simply reused Arnold's arrangements because he preferred it over Barry's. The full write up is on the link below.

    https://rogerebert.com/balder-and-dash/the-musical-history-behind-the-james-bond-gun-barrel-sequences
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,161
    RC7 wrote: »
    Screw the Navy uniform and the skiing and all the other irrelevances people want to see. Craig backed by the Bond theme in an action scene is a must before he departs.

    tenor.gif
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    edited July 2019 Posts: 10,591
    Am I the only one in thinking Barry's arrangement would sound ridiculously out of place in Craig Bond film? That said, I'm all for Arnold's arrangement or a new one blaring through an action sequence in B25.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Since Cary's a fan of AVTAK, I'd love to hear a new arrangement of "He's Dangerous."
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,161
    I bet someone out there could turn '007' into a suitable action piece for the Craig era.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I bet someone out there could turn '007' into a suitable action piece for the Craig era.

    That would also be great. I love some musical fan service.
  • Posts: 3,333
    I asked this question before, but when did CJF say that he was a fan of AVTAK or that it was his favourite? I understand that CJF was most likely 9-years-old when AVTAK came out and that it was his first taste of a Bond picture, but I've read nothing to confirm that it was his favourite. Just curious where this rumour started and if there's any truth to it.
  • Posts: 17,744
    Murdock wrote: »
    Since Cary's a fan of AVTAK, I'd love to hear a new arrangement of "He's Dangerous."
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I bet someone out there could turn '007' into a suitable action piece for the Craig era.

    Would love a new arrangement of both of these!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    bondsum wrote: »
    I asked this question before, but when did CJF say that he was a fan of AVTAK or that it was his favourite? I understand that CJF was most likely 9-years-old when AVTAK came out and that it was his first taste of a Bond picture, but I've read nothing to confirm that it was his favourite. Just curious where this rumour started and if there's any truth to it.

    Yeah, I don’t recall him calling it a “favorite” but rather referring to AVTAK as a fond memory being his first Bond film. Now both he and Mendes have brought up Moore films as being part of their childhood upbringing. Wouldn’t be surprised if the a director during the next decade will cite GE as their childhood Bond film.
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    Murdock wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I bet someone out there could turn '007' into a suitable action piece for the Craig era.

    That would also be great. I love some musical fan service.

    I don't know, whether they want to use the "007 theme" (not to be confused with the Bond theme, but then would it not be Fukunaga's decision to use it?
  • Posts: 6,709
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I bet someone out there could turn '007' into a suitable action piece for the Craig era.

    YES YES YES

    Been saying this for ages.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,161
    Are they even allowed to use it, I wonder?
  • Posts: 6,709
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Are they even allowed to use it, I wonder?

    They've used it briefly, I think in DUD, during the hovercraft chase, in the middle of some horrible electronics.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,161
    Remind me, please, what "DUD" stands for. :)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited July 2019 Posts: 8,179
    The 007 theme hasn’t been utilized in 40 years, and even back then it was only used sporadically by Barry. I don’t see that happening. Back in Craig’s start of his tenure I thought that would be a neat thing to do, but I don’t see it happening.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Remind me, please, what "DUD" stands for. :)

    Deadly Under Duress. ;)
  • Posts: 11,425
    Definitely Unuther Dud
  • HildebrandRarityHildebrandRarity Centre international d'assistance aux personnes déplacées, Paris, France
    Posts: 480
    Monty Norman must get royalties automatically every time the theme, regardless of who arranged it is played, just like his original deal with EON says. The controversy has never affected the films. It is that a few people, including journalists, claim from time to time that he didn't write the theme, which is the work, so they say, of the sole John Barry. Norman sues them and wins every time, because he has drafts of the melody written before Barry was involved.

    Sure, Barry, in a fair world, should have been credited as co-writer of the theme, because he didn't just arrange it, he altered it and added a few key elements that ultimately turned it into the juggernaut we all know and love, and he was able to do it again over and over with "007" or "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" for instance without any need for a Monty Norman. But he had been brought to EON at the 11th hour to arrange a theme for the titles of Dr. No based on his reputation as a fast (and cheap) worker, and he was in no position to negotiate a credit, or to get one in retrospect when he was established as the main composer of the franchise. Norman's contract was tight, and EON may not have wanted to jeopardize their rights to use the theme the same way they had lost part of the intellectual property to Kevin McClory.
    Also, remember that in comics it took something like 80 years for writer Bill Finger to get credited for creating Batman, as artist Bob Kane had negotiated a deal with the publisher in which he would be the sole person to get a credit. But he never took part in developing the characters apart from his idea of having a vigilante dressed like a bat. It's just that Kane was in a position of authority at the publisher and Bill Finger was the rookie who was expendable.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Walecs wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    Newman didn't use it too much simply because he doesn't like using other people's works (hence why he didn't weave the theme song into the score).
    Not true. He used both. SF in Macao, SP in Morocco.
    He didn't. EON asked him to do so and he didn't even bother, so two different people (I can't remember their names but you'll easily find them on the Internet) did the instrumentals that we hear in the movies.

    Well, for years I believed that story. But then somebody here at the forum said, that TN had his own orchestrations for the Bond theme, but MGW and BB insited to use Arnold's version from CR, apparently because they did not want to have to pay more royalties to Monty Norman, who dragged EON and many others through the courts. Now I am not an insider, and I don't know, which story is the true one.

    EDIT: I was not too happy to learn that Eric Serra would compose the GE score, I could bnot imagine him to deliver a Bondian score. But then, apart from the dreadful "Ladies First" and the tank chase score (which was replaced by John Altman's version of the Bond theme), I quite liked it.
    I'm very skeptical of this. If they decided to minimize the use of the Bond theme because they don't want to pay royalties to Norman, then why was the theme used in such a subtle way in CR and QoS, so much subtly that even most fans didn't notice that it was used multiple times, instead of using a full, recognizable rendition or just not use it at all?

    Yeah, I don't buy it either. Norman receives royalties every time the theme is played in a film regardless of whether it's a new rendition or not. His claim doesn't end if it's re-orchestrated. If they used Arnold's "The Name's Bond, James Bond" instead of having Newman re-record it, they would still have to pay royalties.
    Exactly.
    I’m partial to the idea that holding back the theme in CR taught the filmmakers not to rely on the Bond theme as a crutch for later films. IMO that played a part in making QOS Arnold’s best score, who back then overused the theme during the Brosnan era. It’s better to use it sparingly.
    Creative wise it was a pretty good decision, I agree. I just refuse to believe that they did it because they didn't want to pay the royalties to Norman.
  • RyanRyan Canada
    Posts: 692
    Murdock wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Remind me, please, what "DUD" stands for. :)

    Deadly Under Duress. ;)

    That's putting it mildly, 007.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    Posts: 3,497
    I think that would be unfair to write him off before he even delivered his score, as it was unfair of those who wrote off Craig before even seeing his first performance as Bond.

    Lol yeah I was vehemently opposed to Craig.

    And gave Thomas Newman a chance... which turned out in me having three songs of him on my Itunes...
  • Posts: 6,709
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Remind me, please, what "DUD" stands for. :)

    DAD, which was a dud ;)
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dud
  • Posts: 11,425
    So is Beyonce going to collaborate with Romer on the title track?
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