NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Discuss Hans Zimmer's Score

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    And remember, the use of SF tracks in SP is Mendes' call and not Newman's.



    Agreed. For me at least, Newman was a breath of fresh air after enduring a decade of Arnold's pastiche. I don't even think Arnold did that great of a job recreating the Barry sound, no matter how many wah-wah trumpets he threw in.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    edited August 2019 Posts: 16,351
    Newman used a lot of wah-wah trumpets too. But Newman good Arnold bad!


    Heck, you can hear a Weh WAH WAHHHHH every 30 seconds in this track.


  • GertGettlerGertGettler Laptop Barcelona
    Posts: 431
    It's all a matter of taste really. Yes, Arnold and Barry made the most Bond scores. But what about
    - George Martin
    - Marvin Hamlisch
    - Bill Conti
    - Michel Legrand (Yes, I. Love. His. Score. for NSNA :-P)
    - Michael Kamen
    - Eric Serra, and indeed....
    - Thomas Newman

    It's too easy for me to say "that one knows the Bond feeling and the other one doesn't". It's much mure opaque for me. Every composer gave his own interpretation to the character James Bond. That in itself fascinates me; not one composer who perfectly copies the Barry-stuff.

    I try not to use this "Bond brandmark" as the sole element of reviewing an upcoming Bond-score. Because then we might all get disappointed. Hence I am looking forward to what Dan Romer brings to the franchise, regardless if it's Bond-esque or not :-).
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    It's all a matter of taste really. Yes, Arnold and Barry made the most Bond scores. But what about
    - George Martin
    - Marvin Hamlisch
    - Bill Conti
    - Michel Legrand (Yes, I. Love. His. Score. for NSNA :-P)
    - Michael Kamen
    - Eric Serra, and indeed....
    - Thomas Newman

    It's too easy for me to say "that one knows the Bond feeling and the other one doesn't". It's much mure opaque for me. Every composer gave his own interpretation to the character James Bond. That in itself fascinates me; not one composer who perfectly copies the Barry-stuff.

    I try not to use this "Bond brandmark" as the sole element of reviewing an upcoming Bond-score. Because then we might all get disappointed. Hence I am looking forward to what Dan Romer brings to the franchise, regardless if it's Bond-esque or not :-).

    It’s not about sounding like Barry, but embracing the essence of what makes a Bond score tick. A lot of the time it’s about melody and atmosphere, musical motifs that bring the picture together. Those outside Barry did great work, Martin in particular for me. Even Serra gave GE something recognisable and distinctive. Newman’s scores just don’t feel cohesively ‘whole’ to me, more just disparate tracks (some of them greatly listenable, no doubt about that).
  • GertGettlerGertGettler Laptop Barcelona
    Posts: 431
    Even then….even when you apply that 'tick-that-makes-Bond'....it still is a matter of personal taste. Newman is very much a composer that tries to grab drama and atmosphere. And does so by using rhythmn and electric percussion instead of melody. In a way, David Arnold did exactly that for his last score for QOS, which was perhaps even more anti-melodic when compared to Newman's Bond scores (that's what Ii think).

    Perhaps one of the reasons why Newman always makes my skin crawl in a positive way, is because I have always been a fan of electronic music :-).

    One track I am listening atm is for instance this one (would love to hear it in a Bond-film):


    And then afterwards I listen to this (which I also love and which adds my understanding of what is typical Bond-ian):


    Anyway, looking at the discography of Dan Romer...…...I think he will be a bit of a mix between Alan Silvestri, David Arnold and Thomas Newman.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,344
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    Absolutely: and class is the word. Newman's scores feel rich and sophisticated, just like the world of James Bond should. Arnold's scores are fun, but they're thin and a bit cheap-feeling.

  • I'd be glad if Romer did a fully orchestral score (no electronics) like the good old days, doubt we'll ever have a fully orchestral Bond score again.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    mtm wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    Absolutely: and class is the word. Newman's scores feel rich and sophisticated, just like the world of James Bond should. Arnold's scores are fun, but they're thin and a bit cheap-feeling.

    "Rich and sophisticated"


    "Thin and a bit cheap-feeling"
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    To be fair, anyone can cherry-pick the best and the worst of either composer to illustrate a point. Bottom line, both brought a fair amount of good music to the franchise. And I'm willing to bet Romer's effort will be just as controversial as Newman's Bond work.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited August 2019 Posts: 8,205
    jake24 wrote: »
    To be fair, anyone can cherry-pick the best and the worst of either composer to illustrate a point. Bottom line, both brought a fair amount of good music to the franchise. And I'm willing to bet Romer's effort will be just as controversial as Newman's Bond work.

    Just like anyone can use buzzwords to dismiss one over the other.

    But I agree with you about Newman, Arnold and Romer. I think he'll do fine, personally.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    jake24 wrote: »
    To be fair, anyone can cherry-pick the best and the worst of either composer to illustrate a point. Bottom line, both brought a fair amount of good music to the franchise. And I'm willing to bet Romer's effort will be just as controversial as Newman's Bond work.

    Just like anyone can use buzzwords to dismiss one over the other. To be fair.
    Ok, cool.
  • Arnold will always be the best post-Barry composer, I feel.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    Arnold will always be the best post-Barry composer, I feel.

    I flip between Martin and Arnold depending on the day of the week.
  • Posts: 3,327
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    And remember, the use of SF tracks in SP is Mendes' call and not Newman's.



    Like you said, we listened to different soundtracks then.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    edited August 2019 Posts: 10,591
    Newman's SF score was terrific. His work on SP was mediocre (that includes his original stuff), aside from two or three tracks. It's hard to believe they both came from the same composer.
  • Posts: 3,327
    jake24 wrote: »
    Newman's SF score was terrific. His work on SP was mediocre (that includes his original stuff), aside from two or three tracks. It's hard to believe they both came from the same composer.

    Exactly! One trick pony, yet listening to many here, you'd think he was better than John Barry.
  • Posts: 4,044
    Do we all think that David Arnold just spent most of his time doing a John Barry pastiche? Which particular tracks make you think that?

    I think any new composer needs to incorporate a classic Bond sound, but not necessarily a Barry clone. Something that sounds modern but with a sixties spy flavour (especially for a sneaky Bond moment). At least some tracks to be largely orchestral. Create their own secondary theme. Use the song a few times, not just a straight instrumental take. Ambient moments are fine but not a whole movie of noodling.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2019 Posts: 16,344
    mtm wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    Absolutely: and class is the word. Newman's scores feel rich and sophisticated, just like the world of James Bond should. Arnold's scores are fun, but they're thin and a bit cheap-feeling.

    "Rich and sophisticated"


    "Thin and a bit cheap-feeling"

    Yep; that's what those sound like to me. Not quite sure what your point was other than to prove mine! :) Listen to the lovely layering in that Newman one.
    Let me know when Arnold gets nominated for some Oscars... or indeed gets any movie work ;) That's a bit mean; I like Arnold's stuff as much as the next fan, but there's an extra dimension to Newman's stuff which I just don't find to be there in Arnold's.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2019 Posts: 16,344
    vzok wrote: »
    Do we all think that David Arnold just spent most of his time doing a John Barry pastiche? Which particular tracks make you think that?

    I don't think he ever really did any Barry pastiche, apart from when he took little bits and pieces like the OHMSS and FRWL nods in stuff like White Knight.
    The only time I thought he was really going for a Barry sound was Vesper's theme in Casino Royale; the entrance into Venice is as Barry as he got.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    Absolutely: and class is the word. Newman's scores feel rich and sophisticated, just like the world of James Bond should. Arnold's scores are fun, but they're thin and a bit cheap-feeling.

    "Rich and sophisticated"


    "Thin and a bit cheap-feeling"

    Yep; that's what those sound like to me. Not quite sure what your point was other than to prove mine! :) Listen to the lovely layering in that Newman one.
    Let me know when Arnold gets nominated for some Oscars... or indeed gets any movie work ;) That's a bit mean; I like Arnold's stuff as much as the next fan, but there's an extra dimension to Newman's stuff which I just don't find to be there in Arnold's.

    Really? You think that proves your point? Yikes.

    The Newman track is dull as dishwater. The "lovely layering", as you say, is just pads and looped rhythms of that fail to generate any peril or excitement whatsoever. And that scene badly needed peril and excitement. It sounds like something a college graduate composer would put together for a low budget Bond knockoff. The Arnold track, by comparison, has weight and momentum to it, using the power of the orchestra to actually enhance its accompanying scene.

    Correct, that is a bit mean, but more importantly has echoes of the broken records of overreaching, desperate criticism that have been spouted time and time again as if it's somehow indicative of the quality of the work. So indeed, let me know when there's actually something said that doesn't amount to "it looks like he doesn't get hired anymore, therefore he is bad". ;)

    Overall though, as @jake24 said above, they both had merits. Newman did quite well in the romantic/ambient cues. Those have always been the types of cues that "won him Oscars" as well as Grammys (a music award that interestingly Mr. Arnold also has a couple of!) but his action music is so very bland. It's monotonous and plodding and feels thrown together bar one or two cues.

    But, he did give us Severine, so credit where credit is due.

    I hope Romer distinguishes himself from Newman's last two scores big time. SP, again, had a few good cues but was ultimately stale by film's end. The lack of seemingly super-important Oscar recognition for it would prove that! :)
    talos7 wrote: »
    The “My Greatest Triumph” track from Maniac is very reassuring that he’s up to the challenge.

    It's not bad at all. It's hard to know what to expect with Romer, which makes it interesting.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    I can’t agree with your dismissal of his actions cues when something like the one-two punch that is “Grand Bazaar, Istanbul” and “The Bloody Shot” are sitting right there. It’s the first PTS music since Serra’s “GoldenEye Overture” to get me pumped at the beginning of a Bond film.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2019 Posts: 16,344
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    Absolutely: and class is the word. Newman's scores feel rich and sophisticated, just like the world of James Bond should. Arnold's scores are fun, but they're thin and a bit cheap-feeling.

    "Rich and sophisticated"


    "Thin and a bit cheap-feeling"

    Yep; that's what those sound like to me. Not quite sure what your point was other than to prove mine! :) Listen to the lovely layering in that Newman one.
    Let me know when Arnold gets nominated for some Oscars... or indeed gets any movie work ;) That's a bit mean; I like Arnold's stuff as much as the next fan, but there's an extra dimension to Newman's stuff which I just don't find to be there in Arnold's.

    Really? You think that proves your point? Yikes.

    The Newman track is dull as dishwater. The "lovely layering", as you say, is just pads and looped rhythms of that fail to generate any peril or excitement whatsoever. And that scene badly needed peril and excitement. It sounds like something a college graduate composer would put together for a low budget Bond knockoff. The Arnold track, by comparison, has weight and momentum to it, using the power of the orchestra to actually enhance its accompanying scene.

    Correct, that is a bit mean, but more importantly has echoes of the broken records of overreaching, desperate criticism that have been spouted time and time again as if it's somehow indicative of the quality of the work. So indeed, let me know when there's actually something said that doesn't amount to "it looks like he doesn't get hired anymore, therefore he is bad". ;)

    Overall though, as @jake24 said above, they both had merits. Newman did quite well in the romantic/ambient cues. Those have always been the types of cues that "won him Oscars" as well as Grammys (a music award that interestingly Mr. Arnold also has a couple of!) but his action music is so very bland. It's monotonous and plodding and feels thrown together bar one or two cues.

    But, he did give us Severine, so credit where credit is due.

    I hope Romer distinguishes himself from Newman's last two scores big time. SP, again, had a few good cues but was ultimately stale by film's end. The lack of seemingly super-important Oscar recognition for it would prove that! :)
    talos7 wrote: »
    The “My Greatest Triumph” track from Maniac is very reassuring that he’s up to the challenge.

    It's not bad at all. It's hard to know what to expect with Romer, which makes it interesting.

    I think you're after a nasty aggressive argument: not interested, sorry. When you start dismissing layering as being 'just' instrumentation, as if all music isn't basically that, then I know you're just being argumentative for the sake of it. If you want to tone it down a bit, lose the attempts to patronise etc. then I'd be happy to talk about this in a civilised way. We're just talking about Bond music; it should be fun- not Brexit.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited August 2019 Posts: 8,205
    I can’t agree with your dismissal of his actions cues when something like the one-two punch that is “Grand Bazaar, Istanbul” and “The Bloody Shot” are sitting right there. It’s the first PTS music since Serra’s “GoldenEye Overture” to get me pumped at the beginning of a Bond film.

    "Grand Bazaar, Istanbul" is one of the exceptions, I would say. Along with "She's Mine".

    "The Bloody Shot" though is the definition of cheap sounding to me. It always sounded Zimmer-lite in its progressions and the pad and drum work reminds me of Die Another Day, which is my least favourite Arnold score by a mile.

    I share your love for the "GoldenEye Overture" though, at least! ;)
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    Absolutely: and class is the word. Newman's scores feel rich and sophisticated, just like the world of James Bond should. Arnold's scores are fun, but they're thin and a bit cheap-feeling.

    "Rich and sophisticated"


    "Thin and a bit cheap-feeling"

    Yep; that's what those sound like to me. Not quite sure what your point was other than to prove mine! :) Listen to the lovely layering in that Newman one.
    Let me know when Arnold gets nominated for some Oscars... or indeed gets any movie work ;) That's a bit mean; I like Arnold's stuff as much as the next fan, but there's an extra dimension to Newman's stuff which I just don't find to be there in Arnold's.

    Really? You think that proves your point? Yikes.

    The Newman track is dull as dishwater. The "lovely layering", as you say, is just pads and looped rhythms of that fail to generate any peril or excitement whatsoever. And that scene badly needed peril and excitement. It sounds like something a college graduate composer would put together for a low budget Bond knockoff. The Arnold track, by comparison, has weight and momentum to it, using the power of the orchestra to actually enhance its accompanying scene.

    Correct, that is a bit mean, but more importantly has echoes of the broken records of overreaching, desperate criticism that have been spouted time and time again as if it's somehow indicative of the quality of the work. So indeed, let me know when there's actually something said that doesn't amount to "it looks like he doesn't get hired anymore, therefore he is bad". ;)

    Overall though, as @jake24 said above, they both had merits. Newman did quite well in the romantic/ambient cues. Those have always been the types of cues that "won him Oscars" as well as Grammys (a music award that interestingly Mr. Arnold also has a couple of!) but his action music is so very bland. It's monotonous and plodding and feels thrown together bar one or two cues.

    But, he did give us Severine, so credit where credit is due.

    I hope Romer distinguishes himself from Newman's last two scores big time. SP, again, had a few good cues but was ultimately stale by film's end. The lack of seemingly super-important Oscar recognition for it would prove that! :)
    talos7 wrote: »
    The “My Greatest Triumph” track from Maniac is very reassuring that he’s up to the challenge.

    It's not bad at all. It's hard to know what to expect with Romer, which makes it interesting.

    I think you're after a nasty aggressive argument: not interested, sorry. When you start dismissing layering as being 'just' instrumentation, as if all music isn't basically that, then I know you're just being argumentative for the sake of it. If you want to tone it down a bit, lose the attempts to patronise etc. then I'd be happy to talk about this in a civilised way. We're just talking about Bond music; it should be fun- not Brexit.

    I think you're being a tad sensitive here, considering "Let me know when Arnold gets nominated for some Oscars.....or indeed gets any movie work ;)" is about as patronising as it gets in this context. Please, don't be a hypocrite. We weren't talking about instrumentation as a concept though. We were countering about which were rich and which sounded cheap. And pads and loops over what sounds like a very small string section sounds very cheap to me in comparison with the weight of the orchestra being heard in the Arnold cue. Both examples of "just instrumentation, as if all music isn't basically that", but one is far superior to the other in what it aims to do, and it isn't Newman's imo.

    I'm having fun criticising your criticisms - both are being put out in good faith.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    Absolutely: and class is the word. Newman's scores feel rich and sophisticated, just like the world of James Bond should. Arnold's scores are fun, but they're thin and a bit cheap-feeling.

    "Rich and sophisticated"


    "Thin and a bit cheap-feeling"

    Yep; that's what those sound like to me. Not quite sure what your point was other than to prove mine! :) Listen to the lovely layering in that Newman one.
    Let me know when Arnold gets nominated for some Oscars... or indeed gets any movie work ;) That's a bit mean; I like Arnold's stuff as much as the next fan, but there's an extra dimension to Newman's stuff which I just don't find to be there in Arnold's.
    The fact that you need to mock Arnold for not getting an Oscar nomination or working less than Newman does is rather telling. Both facts are totally unrelated to music quality and you only mention those to support your thesis that Newman is better than Arnold. Ridiculous.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    Newman couldn't hold a candle to Arnold when it came down to scoring an action scene. I could take Arnold's worst track and it would still be better than what Newman provided for SP, which boils down to temp music.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    Walecs wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    Absolutely: and class is the word. Newman's scores feel rich and sophisticated, just like the world of James Bond should. Arnold's scores are fun, but they're thin and a bit cheap-feeling.

    "Rich and sophisticated"


    "Thin and a bit cheap-feeling"

    Yep; that's what those sound like to me. Not quite sure what your point was other than to prove mine! :) Listen to the lovely layering in that Newman one.
    Let me know when Arnold gets nominated for some Oscars... or indeed gets any movie work ;) That's a bit mean; I like Arnold's stuff as much as the next fan, but there's an extra dimension to Newman's stuff which I just don't find to be there in Arnold's.
    The fact that you need to mock Arnold for not getting an Oscar nomination or working less than Newman does is rather telling. Both facts are totally unrelated to music quality and you only mention those to support your thesis that Newman is better than Arnold. Ridiculous.

    And yet, oft repeated and always as if we've never heard it before.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited August 2019 Posts: 8,179
    I can’t agree with your dismissal of his actions cues when something like the one-two punch that is “Grand Bazaar, Istanbul” and “The Bloody Shot” are sitting right there. It’s the first PTS music since Serra’s “GoldenEye Overture” to get me pumped at the beginning of a Bond film.

    "Grand Bazaar, Istanbul" is one of the exceptions, I would say. Along with "She's Mine".

    "The Bloody Shot" though is the definition of cheap sounding to me. It always sounded Zimmer-lite in its progressions and the pad and drum work reminds me of Die Another Day, which is my least favourite Arnold score by a mile.

    I share your love for the "GoldenEye Overture" though, at least! ;)

    Funny, DAD for me is one of his better efforts. But then again I think Madonna's song is a lot better than people (read: Bond fans) give it credit.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    I can’t agree with your dismissal of his actions cues when something like the one-two punch that is “Grand Bazaar, Istanbul” and “The Bloody Shot” are sitting right there. It’s the first PTS music since Serra’s “GoldenEye Overture” to get me pumped at the beginning of a Bond film.

    "Grand Bazaar, Istanbul" is one of the exceptions, I would say. Along with "She's Mine".

    "The Bloody Shot" though is the definition of cheap sounding to me. It always sounded Zimmer-lite in its progressions and the pad and drum work reminds me of Die Another Day, which is my least favourite Arnold score by a mile.

    I share your love for the "GoldenEye Overture" though, at least! ;)

    Funny, DAD for me is one of his better efforts. But then again I think Madonna's song is a lot better than people give it credit.


    Different strokes, as they say!
    There's film version mixes of cues from DAD out there somewhere that I hope are released eventually. Same cues, just minus the techno stuff. Would really like to hear them as they are in the film.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited August 2019 Posts: 8,179
    The techno elements are a feature, not a bug! It would be like asking for a mix of the 1962 recording of the Bond theme but without Vic Flick's guitar work!
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    The techno elements are a feature, not a bug! It would be like asking for a mix of the 1962 recording of the Bond theme but without Vic Flick's guitar work!

    They are a feature on the album alright, but it is a film score after all and if that were a fair comparison, the techno would be in the film mix too. So it is not that simple and you know it. ;)
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