NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Discuss Hans Zimmer's Score

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Okay, now I'm not even sure what you're talking about anymore.

    Admittedly, the only DAD album I've listened to was an unofficial complete album I acquired online like a decade ago, and it sounds a lot like what I've heard on film. Can't comment on the official album that didn't even have all of the score.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    God Everytime we talk about new score there is always someone ready to jump on ship Arnold vs ship Newman. Both had it's days now let it go. I want to talk more about Romer and how it's going to be in NTTD. CJF may have some influence in the score as well being a director. Does anyone know that director in the past bond films ever getting much involved in composing the film's score?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2019 Posts: 16,420
    Walecs wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    Absolutely: and class is the word. Newman's scores feel rich and sophisticated, just like the world of James Bond should. Arnold's scores are fun, but they're thin and a bit cheap-feeling.

    "Rich and sophisticated"


    "Thin and a bit cheap-feeling"

    Yep; that's what those sound like to me. Not quite sure what your point was other than to prove mine! :) Listen to the lovely layering in that Newman one.
    Let me know when Arnold gets nominated for some Oscars... or indeed gets any movie work ;) That's a bit mean; I like Arnold's stuff as much as the next fan, but there's an extra dimension to Newman's stuff which I just don't find to be there in Arnold's.
    The fact that you need to mock Arnold for not getting an Oscar nomination or working less than Newman does is rather telling. Both facts are totally unrelated to music quality and you only mention those to support your thesis that Newman is better than Arnold. Ridiculous.

    Well I admitted it was mean, but Newman will go down as one of the more important and, well, best composers of the last 50 years and Arnold won't. I don't find that unrelated to music quality at all: it's entirely concerning music quality. There's no need to be oversensitive about it: no-one's telling you you're wrong for enjoying it. I've happily listened to the Arnold soundtracks for years.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited August 2019 Posts: 8,217
    Okay, now I'm not even sure what you're talking about anymore.

    Admittedly, the only DAD album I've listened to was an unofficial complete album I acquired online like a decade ago, and it sounds a lot like what I've heard on film. Can't comment on the official album that didn't even have all of the score.

    The Vic Flick guitar is present in film and on album. The techno isn't. So the comparison doesn't hold up.

    The bootleg of DAD doesn't have the film mixes of some of the cues. We'd need the recording sessions for that.

    That is what I'm talking about.
    mtm wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    Absolutely: and class is the word. Newman's scores feel rich and sophisticated, just like the world of James Bond should. Arnold's scores are fun, but they're thin and a bit cheap-feeling.

    "Rich and sophisticated"


    "Thin and a bit cheap-feeling"

    Yep; that's what those sound like to me. Not quite sure what your point was other than to prove mine! :) Listen to the lovely layering in that Newman one.
    Let me know when Arnold gets nominated for some Oscars... or indeed gets any movie work ;) That's a bit mean; I like Arnold's stuff as much as the next fan, but there's an extra dimension to Newman's stuff which I just don't find to be there in Arnold's.
    The fact that you need to mock Arnold for not getting an Oscar nomination or working less than Newman does is rather telling. Both facts are totally unrelated to music quality and you only mention those to support your thesis that Newman is better than Arnold. Ridiculous.

    Well I admitted it was mean, but Newman will go down as one of the more important and, well, best composers of the last 50 years and Arnold won't. I don't find that unrelated to music quality at all: it's entirely concerning music quality. There's no need to be oversensitive about it: no-one's telling you you're wrong for enjoying it. I've happily listened to the Arnold soundtracks for years.

    Irony.
    God Everytime we talk about new score there is always someone ready to jump on ship Arnold vs ship Newman. Both had it's days now let it go. I want to talk more about Romer and how it's going to be in NTTD. CJF may have some influence in the score as well being a director. Does anyone know that director in the past bond films ever getting much involved in composing the film's score?

    Sam Mendes!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Okay, now I'm not even sure what you're talking about anymore.

    Admittedly, the only DAD album I've listened to was an unofficial complete album I acquired online like a decade ago, and it sounds a lot like what I've heard on film. Can't comment on the official album that didn't even have all of the score.

    The Vic Flick guitar is present in film and on album. The techno isn't. So the comparison doesn't hold up.

    The bootleg of DAD doesn't have the film mixes of some of the cues. We'd need the recording sessions for that.

    That is what I'm talking about.

    That's pretty lame if none of the albums have the film versions with the electronics.
  • RC7RC7
    edited August 2019 Posts: 10,512
    God Everytime we talk about new score there is always someone ready to jump on ship Arnold vs ship Newman. Both had it's days now let it go. I want to talk more about Romer and how it's going to be in NTTD. CJF may have some influence in the score as well being a director. Does anyone know that director in the past bond films ever getting much involved in composing the film's score?

    It’s pertinent in that they’re responsible for the last 20 years of Bond scores and both had a different approach.

    Whether one thinks Arnold or Newman is ‘better’ is of course down to personal taste, for me it’s more about the framework of the score and I feel like Arnold understood the ‘format’, for want of a better word, forged by Barry (and carried through by others over the years) better than Newman.

    My point on a previous page is that I hope Romer does the same. He doesn’t need to ‘sound’ like Barry, but it would be great, from my point of view, if he structured his score in a similar manner, with strong recurring theme/s and action cues that are weaved throughout the film.

    For the record I actually like a lot of Newman’s Bond work, but individually rather than as a complimentary whole - which is where Barry excelled.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited August 2019 Posts: 8,217
    Okay, now I'm not even sure what you're talking about anymore.

    Admittedly, the only DAD album I've listened to was an unofficial complete album I acquired online like a decade ago, and it sounds a lot like what I've heard on film. Can't comment on the official album that didn't even have all of the score.

    The Vic Flick guitar is present in film and on album. The techno isn't. So the comparison doesn't hold up.

    The bootleg of DAD doesn't have the film mixes of some of the cues. We'd need the recording sessions for that.

    That is what I'm talking about.

    That's pretty lame if none of the albums have the film versions with the electronics.

    ....which stems back to my issue with the score overall.

    Buy anyway, major tangent here.
    RC7 wrote: »
    God Everytime we talk about new score there is always someone ready to jump on ship Arnold vs ship Newman. Both had it's days now let it go. I want to talk more about Romer and how it's going to be in NTTD. CJF may have some influence in the score as well being a director. Does anyone know that director in the past bond films ever getting much involved in composing the film's score?

    It’s pertinent in that they’re responsible for the last 20 years of Bond scores and both had a different approach.

    Whether one thinks Arnold or Newman is ‘better’ is of course down to personal taste, for me it’s more about the framework of the score and I feel like Arnold understood the ‘format’, for want of a better word, forged by Barry (and carried through by others over the years) better than Newman.

    My point on a previous page is that I hope Romer does the same. He doesn’t need to ‘sound’ like Barry, but it would be great, from my point of view, if he structured his score in a similar manner, with strong recurring theme/s and action cues that are weaved throughout the film.

    For the record I actually like a lot of Newman’s Bond work, but individually rather than as a complimentary whole - which is where Barry excelled.

    This is about as succinct as it gets, @RC7!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    RC7 wrote: »
    God Everytime we talk about new score there is always someone ready to jump on ship Arnold vs ship Newman. Both had it's days now let it go. I want to talk more about Romer and how it's going to be in NTTD. CJF may have some influence in the score as well being a director. Does anyone know that director in the past bond films ever getting much involved in composing the film's score?

    It’s pertinent in that they’re responsible for the last 20 years of Bond scores and both had a different approach.

    Whether one thinks Arnold or Newman is ‘better’ is of course down to personal taste, for me it’s more about the framework of the score and I feel like Arnold understood the ‘format’, for want of a better word, forged by Barry (and carried through by others over the years) better than Newman.

    That's just one way of doing a score though. Barry was undeniably the master at what he did, but why do you have to follow that structure to do a Bond film? There's a certain sound and full, epic brassiness you always want as part of the Bond aesthetic of course, but I don't see why you need a particular theme here or a love theme there in order for it to be Bond.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    mtm wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    God Everytime we talk about new score there is always someone ready to jump on ship Arnold vs ship Newman. Both had it's days now let it go. I want to talk more about Romer and how it's going to be in NTTD. CJF may have some influence in the score as well being a director. Does anyone know that director in the past bond films ever getting much involved in composing the film's score?

    It’s pertinent in that they’re responsible for the last 20 years of Bond scores and both had a different approach.

    Whether one thinks Arnold or Newman is ‘better’ is of course down to personal taste, for me it’s more about the framework of the score and I feel like Arnold understood the ‘format’, for want of a better word, forged by Barry (and carried through by others over the years) better than Newman.

    That's just one way of doing a score though. Barry was undeniably the master at what he did, but why do you have to follow that structure to do a Bond film? There's a certain sound and full, epic brassiness you always want as part of the Bond aesthetic of course, but I don't see why you need a particular theme here or a love theme there in order for it to be Bond.

    See I wouldn’t even go as far as saying it needs ‘epic brassiness’, I’m all for playing with the sound, but a strong musical motif is something I look for in a Bond score. Something that pulls it all together. To me it’s part of the DNA.

    In all fairness it’s been harder recently as the idea of the composer working with the artist to create the title track has been shot to sh*t. Personally I think it should be a prerequisite when they sign up. I would be over the moon if Romer was allowed/keen to follow this path and subsequently weave the melody/riff of the title track through the score.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    mtm wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    Absolutely: and class is the word. Newman's scores feel rich and sophisticated, just like the world of James Bond should. Arnold's scores are fun, but they're thin and a bit cheap-feeling.

    "Rich and sophisticated"


    "Thin and a bit cheap-feeling"

    Yep; that's what those sound like to me. Not quite sure what your point was other than to prove mine! :) Listen to the lovely layering in that Newman one.
    Let me know when Arnold gets nominated for some Oscars... or indeed gets any movie work ;) That's a bit mean; I like Arnold's stuff as much as the next fan, but there's an extra dimension to Newman's stuff which I just don't find to be there in Arnold's.
    The fact that you need to mock Arnold for not getting an Oscar nomination or working less than Newman does is rather telling. Both facts are totally unrelated to music quality and you only mention those to support your thesis that Newman is better than Arnold. Ridiculous.

    Well I admitted it was mean, but Newman will go down as one of the more important and, well, best composers of the last 50 years and Arnold won't. I don't find that unrelated to music quality at all: it's entirely concerning music quality. There's no need to be oversensitive about it: no-one's telling you you're wrong for enjoying it. I've happily listened to the Arnold soundtracks for years.

    It was not mean, it was totally pointless. Who cares about awards and such*, we are talking about quality and personal tastes. I couldn't care less if God Almighty came on Earth and said that Newman or Arnold is the best composer who ever lived, what I care is discussing their works as a fan.

    *especially if it's the Oscar, which are not given for one's merits but for other reasons such as family name, money, and such.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    RC7 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    God Everytime we talk about new score there is always someone ready to jump on ship Arnold vs ship Newman. Both had it's days now let it go. I want to talk more about Romer and how it's going to be in NTTD. CJF may have some influence in the score as well being a director. Does anyone know that director in the past bond films ever getting much involved in composing the film's score?

    It’s pertinent in that they’re responsible for the last 20 years of Bond scores and both had a different approach.

    Whether one thinks Arnold or Newman is ‘better’ is of course down to personal taste, for me it’s more about the framework of the score and I feel like Arnold understood the ‘format’, for want of a better word, forged by Barry (and carried through by others over the years) better than Newman.

    That's just one way of doing a score though. Barry was undeniably the master at what he did, but why do you have to follow that structure to do a Bond film? There's a certain sound and full, epic brassiness you always want as part of the Bond aesthetic of course, but I don't see why you need a particular theme here or a love theme there in order for it to be Bond.

    See I wouldn’t even go as far as saying it needs ‘epic brassiness’, I’m all for playing with the sound, but a strong musical motif is something I look for in a Bond score. Something that pulls it all together. To me it’s part of the DNA.

    Yeah maybe not brassiness, but I think you want to evoke Bond's luxurious world in some way. It needs to be classy and rich, with deep quality: that's where Newman got it right for me. Plus you want some menace and danger of course.
    In terms of a strong musical motif.. I dunno. I'm not sure that's as important as the feeling that the music can evoke. I like to have one of course, but I don't think it's essential.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited August 2019 Posts: 8,217
    RC7 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    God Everytime we talk about new score there is always someone ready to jump on ship Arnold vs ship Newman. Both had it's days now let it go. I want to talk more about Romer and how it's going to be in NTTD. CJF may have some influence in the score as well being a director. Does anyone know that director in the past bond films ever getting much involved in composing the film's score?

    It’s pertinent in that they’re responsible for the last 20 years of Bond scores and both had a different approach.

    Whether one thinks Arnold or Newman is ‘better’ is of course down to personal taste, for me it’s more about the framework of the score and I feel like Arnold understood the ‘format’, for want of a better word, forged by Barry (and carried through by others over the years) better than Newman.

    That's just one way of doing a score though. Barry was undeniably the master at what he did, but why do you have to follow that structure to do a Bond film? There's a certain sound and full, epic brassiness you always want as part of the Bond aesthetic of course, but I don't see why you need a particular theme here or a love theme there in order for it to be Bond.

    See I wouldn’t even go as far as saying it needs ‘epic brassiness’, I’m all for playing with the sound, but a strong musical motif is something I look for in a Bond score. Something that pulls it all together. To me it’s part of the DNA.

    In all fairness it’s been harder recently as the idea of the composer working with the artist to create the title track has been shot to sh*t. Personally I think it should be a prerequisite when they sign up. I would be over the moon if Romer was allowed/keen to follow this path and subsequently weave the melody/riff of the title track through the score.

    Which is why George Martin's score is so good. He does all the things you mention there, and does it without going anywhere near Barry's style. It's unmistakably Bond because of its structure.

    Arnold and Martin, for me, had it nailed down. The others all had their moments, but like you said, they're individual moments rather than a cohesive whole.

    I hope Romer does indeed take note of the importance of it, and looks to older scores for inspiration and then merges that with his own ideas. That's the sweet spot for a potential new score.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    Newman couldn't hold a candle to Arnold when it came down to scoring an action scene. I could take Arnold's worst track and it would still be better than what Newman provided for SP, which boils down to temp music.

    Action music is not especially memorable, no matter who the composer is. It's not the stuff I want on my speakers while I'm sipping a martini. So I usually "drop" those tracks from my Bond playlists.
  • GertGettlerGertGettler Laptop Barcelona
    Posts: 431
    Hence I prefer to listen my own made 'album' these days. Perfect for having this in the background while re-reading the Bond novels as a preparation to "No Time To Die" :D :


    ABF9cye.png
    DPKrCYF.png
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    TripAces wrote: »
    Newman couldn't hold a candle to Arnold when it came down to scoring an action scene. I could take Arnold's worst track and it would still be better than what Newman provided for SP, which boils down to temp music.

    Action music is not especially memorable, no matter who the composer is. It's not the stuff I want on my speakers while I'm sipping a martini. So I usually "drop" those tracks from my Bond playlists.

    Now, there's a red hot take! ;)
  • Posts: 5,767
    Skyfall had the best soundtrack for Bond since The Living Daylights. I'm very happy Arnold isn't back. Can't wait to hear what Dan Romer gives us. I'm hopeful it isn't Barryesque in the slightest. There are too many nods to the past in Bond nowadays anyway. It becomes a parody. I want fresh and progressive.

    A true artist does not imitate. He creates.
    Which says absolutely nothing, since the world has brought forth great sampling artists.

  • edited August 2019 Posts: 5,767
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    And remember, the use of SF tracks in SP is Mendes' call and not Newman's.



    Agreed. For me at least, Newman was a breath of fresh air after enduring a decade of Arnold's pastiche. I don't even think Arnold did that great of a job recreating the Barry sound, no matter how many wah-wah trumpets he threw in.
    It´s really a problem that so many people think Arnold was trying to get the Barry sound. He didn´t. He went for a modern music approach mixed with Barry-esque elements. And that he did splendidly.
    I agree that technically Arnold will probably never be as capable as Newman, but to call Newman´s SF score a breath of fresh air is quite a stretch. There were a few more elaborate harmonies, I´ll give him that. But basically, whatever Arnold lacked, Newman did much worse. The only thing he may have done right was that his music fits to the drab colours and lighting of the film. I for my part can live better without those.



    God Everytime we talk about new score there is always someone ready to jump on ship Arnold vs ship Newman. Both had it's days now let it go. I want to talk more about Romer and how it's going to be in NTTD. CJF may have some influence in the score as well being a director. Does anyone know that director in the past bond films ever getting much involved in composing the film's score?
    Not necessarily Bond. Although I think the producers together with the editor decide a lot. E.G. the JB theme in SF, or the music for the tank chase scene in GE, or the JB theme in DN (amusing to read how Barry recalls seeing the film for the first time and noticing that the theme he thought would feature in one or two scenes of the film appeared every few minutes). Arnold said that his tracks for QoS were placed differently in the film than he originally intended, but that he liked the result.
    But as far as directors go, I read that Michael Mann altered scores which were crafted by composers. Not the pop music tracks which are heavily featured in many of his films. I believe there´s a special guy for those. But Mann allegedly changed or had someone else change the scores of Last of the Mohicans, and Blackhat. The credited composer of the latter said that what you hear in the film has not much to do with what he composed and recorded.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    boldfinger wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    And remember, the use of SF tracks in SP is Mendes' call and not Newman's.



    Agreed. For me at least, Newman was a breath of fresh air after enduring a decade of Arnold's pastiche. I don't even think Arnold did that great of a job recreating the Barry sound, no matter how many wah-wah trumpets he threw in.
    It´s really a problem that so many people think Arnold was trying to get the Barry sound. He didn´t. He went for a modern music approach mixed with Barry-esque elements. And that he did splendidly.
    I agree that technically Arnold will probably never be as capable as Newman, but to call Newman´s SF score a breath of fresh air is quite a stretch. There were a few more elaborate harmonies, I´ll give him that. But basically, whatever Arnold lacked, Newman did much worse. The only thing he may have done right was that his music fits to the drab colours and lighting of the film. I for my part can live better without those.



    God Everytime we talk about new score there is always someone ready to jump on ship Arnold vs ship Newman. Both had it's days now let it go. I want to talk more about Romer and how it's going to be in NTTD. CJF may have some influence in the score as well being a director. Does anyone know that director in the past bond films ever getting much involved in composing the film's score?
    Not necessarily Bond. Although I think the producers together with the editor decide a lot. E.G. the JB theme in SF, or the music for the tank chase scene in GE, or the JB theme in DN (amusing to read how Barry recalls seeing the film for the first time and noticing that the theme he thought would feature in one or two scenes of the film appeared every few minutes). Arnold said that his tracks for QoS were placed differently in the film than he originally intended, but that he liked the result.
    But as far as directors go, I read that Michael Mann altered scores which were crafted by composers. Not the pop music tracks which are heavily featured in many of his films. I believe there´s a special guy for those. But Mann allegedly changed or had someone else change the scores of Last of the Mohicans, and Blackhat. The credited composer of the latter said that what you hear in the film has not much to do with what he composed and recorded.

    Many composers have refused to work with Mann again because of the way he approaches the music in his films. I think it was Harry Gregson-Williams on Blackhat duty.
  • Posts: 5,767
    .
    boldfinger wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    And remember, the use of SF tracks in SP is Mendes' call and not Newman's.



    Agreed. For me at least, Newman was a breath of fresh air after enduring a decade of Arnold's pastiche. I don't even think Arnold did that great of a job recreating the Barry sound, no matter how many wah-wah trumpets he threw in.
    It´s really a problem that so many people think Arnold was trying to get the Barry sound. He didn´t. He went for a modern music approach mixed with Barry-esque elements. And that he did splendidly.
    I agree that technically Arnold will probably never be as capable as Newman, but to call Newman´s SF score a breath of fresh air is quite a stretch. There were a few more elaborate harmonies, I´ll give him that. But basically, whatever Arnold lacked, Newman did much worse. The only thing he may have done right was that his music fits to the drab colours and lighting of the film. I for my part can live better without those.



    God Everytime we talk about new score there is always someone ready to jump on ship Arnold vs ship Newman. Both had it's days now let it go. I want to talk more about Romer and how it's going to be in NTTD. CJF may have some influence in the score as well being a director. Does anyone know that director in the past bond films ever getting much involved in composing the film's score?
    Not necessarily Bond. Although I think the producers together with the editor decide a lot. E.G. the JB theme in SF, or the music for the tank chase scene in GE, or the JB theme in DN (amusing to read how Barry recalls seeing the film for the first time and noticing that the theme he thought would feature in one or two scenes of the film appeared every few minutes). Arnold said that his tracks for QoS were placed differently in the film than he originally intended, but that he liked the result.
    But as far as directors go, I read that Michael Mann altered scores which were crafted by composers. Not the pop music tracks which are heavily featured in many of his films. I believe there´s a special guy for those. But Mann allegedly changed or had someone else change the scores of Last of the Mohicans, and Blackhat. The credited composer of the latter said that what you hear in the film has not much to do with what he composed and recorded.

    Many composers have refused to work with Mann again because of the way he approaches the music in his films. I think it was Harry Gregson-Williams on Blackhat duty.
    @CraigMooreOHMSS, yes, I believe so too. The whole thing with Mann is kind of funny, because I find the music in nearly all of his films pretty great.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    boldfinger wrote: »
    .
    boldfinger wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    And remember, the use of SF tracks in SP is Mendes' call and not Newman's.



    Agreed. For me at least, Newman was a breath of fresh air after enduring a decade of Arnold's pastiche. I don't even think Arnold did that great of a job recreating the Barry sound, no matter how many wah-wah trumpets he threw in.
    It´s really a problem that so many people think Arnold was trying to get the Barry sound. He didn´t. He went for a modern music approach mixed with Barry-esque elements. And that he did splendidly.
    I agree that technically Arnold will probably never be as capable as Newman, but to call Newman´s SF score a breath of fresh air is quite a stretch. There were a few more elaborate harmonies, I´ll give him that. But basically, whatever Arnold lacked, Newman did much worse. The only thing he may have done right was that his music fits to the drab colours and lighting of the film. I for my part can live better without those.



    God Everytime we talk about new score there is always someone ready to jump on ship Arnold vs ship Newman. Both had it's days now let it go. I want to talk more about Romer and how it's going to be in NTTD. CJF may have some influence in the score as well being a director. Does anyone know that director in the past bond films ever getting much involved in composing the film's score?
    Not necessarily Bond. Although I think the producers together with the editor decide a lot. E.G. the JB theme in SF, or the music for the tank chase scene in GE, or the JB theme in DN (amusing to read how Barry recalls seeing the film for the first time and noticing that the theme he thought would feature in one or two scenes of the film appeared every few minutes). Arnold said that his tracks for QoS were placed differently in the film than he originally intended, but that he liked the result.
    But as far as directors go, I read that Michael Mann altered scores which were crafted by composers. Not the pop music tracks which are heavily featured in many of his films. I believe there´s a special guy for those. But Mann allegedly changed or had someone else change the scores of Last of the Mohicans, and Blackhat. The credited composer of the latter said that what you hear in the film has not much to do with what he composed and recorded.

    Many composers have refused to work with Mann again because of the way he approaches the music in his films. I think it was Harry Gregson-Williams on Blackhat duty.
    @CraigMooreOHMSS, yes, I believe so too. The whole thing with Mann is kind of funny, because I find the music in nearly all of his films pretty great.

    Same here. Even his lesser films always have very interesting soundtracks.

    And the soundtrack for HEAT is sublime.
  • edited August 2019 Posts: 5,767
    Absolutely. Almost as good as the soundtrack for Manhunter ;-).

    Ok, both are equally good.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    boldfinger wrote: »
    Absolutely. Almost as good as the soundtrack for Manhunter ;-).

    Ok, both are equally good.

    Touché. And we haven't even mentioned the soundtrack for THIEF, by Tangerine Dream! ;)
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    It's best to be clear: a preference for Newman's work does not mean Arnold's work (in the DC era) was trash. Not at all. Arnold did some really good stuff on CR and QoS, and I have stated multiple times that for me "Night at the Opera" is one of the very best pieces of Bond music ever.

    Great film music takes you back to a scene or a moment, so effectively, that you can see it all over again in your mind. "Night at the Opera" does that. But I found Newman's work did it for me more than Arnold's. "The Chimera," for instance: damn, I am ON THAT BOAT every time I hear it. "Brave New World": I am over Shanghai.

    One of the problems with Arnold's music, and it is not his fault, is that his better tracks are really, really short. For instance, the transition music "Bond in Haiti" in QoS is excellent. But it's only 35 seconds long. :-(
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited August 2019 Posts: 8,217
    TripAces wrote: »
    It's best to be clear: a preference for Newman's work does not mean Arnold's work (in the DC era) was trash. Not at all. Arnold did some really good stuff on CR and QoS, and I have stated multiple times that for me "Night at the Opera" is one of the very best pieces of Bond music ever.

    Great film music takes you back to a scene or a moment, so effectively, that you can see it all over again in your mind. "Night at the Opera" does that. But I found Newman's work did it for me more than Arnold's. "The Chimera," for instance: damn, I am ON THAT BOAT every time I hear it. "Brave New World": I am over Shanghai.

    One of the problems with Arnold's music, and it is not his fault, is that his better tracks are really, really short. For instance, the transition music "Bond in Haiti" in QoS is excellent. But it's only 35 seconds long. :-(

    Fair comments for sure. I feel the same about Newman's transition pieces for the most part, which I think he actually did a much better job of in SP. I love "Crows Klinik", for example, and it's also quite short.

    It inspires the same thing, mentally - an instant visual reminder of a plane soaring through snow-capped mountains.
  • Posts: 1,860
    Music is very personal. I have never liked Newman and felt he was a "fish of water" regarding Bond. I grew up on Barry and Martin so I'm biased against the Serra/Conti etc. sound that's stray to far away. The thing that I miss in the current batch is the lack of a strong guitar led, in your face James Bond film theme. It's almost as though the filmmakers are embossed to embrace it these days. Hoping Romer will be as original as Daniel Pemberton was with UNCLE.
  • edited August 2019 Posts: 678
    Walecs wrote: »
    It was not mean, it was totally pointless. Who cares about awards and such*, we are talking about quality and personal tastes. I couldn't care less if God Almighty came on Earth and said that Newman or Arnold is the best composer who ever lived, what I care is discussing their works as a fan.

    *especially if it's the Oscar, which are not given for one's merits but for other reasons such as family name, money, and such.
    Very well said. I mean, Writing's on the Wall is an Oscar-winning song, and I'll be damned if that makes it a great song, or superior to the many actually great Bond themes that didn't get that award. I don't care how David Arnold is regarded overall as a composer in general. Him being out of work is irrelevant. What I care about is the fact he gave me great Bond OSTs, starting from the Brosnan era.
  • I for one, am far more concerned with the score adhering to the style/tone of the film itself rather than the classic “Bond sound.” First and foremost I think the composer should utilize their strongest skills, make sure it is in service of the film itself, and lastly incorporate sprinklings of the typical Bond sound of and where appropriate.

    I’d rather have a strong score that deviates heavily from the formula than a mediocre “Bondian” score. The series is evolving and the music needs to evolve with it.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    I for one, am far more concerned with the score adhering to the style/tone of the film itself rather than the classic “Bond sound.” First and foremost I think the composer should utilize their strongest skills, make sure it is in service of the film itself, and lastly incorporate sprinklings of the typical Bond sound of and where appropriate.

    I’d rather have a strong score that deviates heavily from the formula than a mediocre “Bondian” score. The series is evolving and the music needs to evolve with it.

    The ideal score strikes a balance of both of these things, imo. You can follow the structure of a Bond score and experiment with and add unique touches to it, the same way a director can with the film. It shouldn't be one or the other.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    I for one, am far more concerned with the score adhering to the style/tone of the film itself rather than the classic “Bond sound.” First and foremost I think the composer should utilize their strongest skills, make sure it is in service of the film itself, and lastly incorporate sprinklings of the typical Bond sound of and where appropriate.

    I’d rather have a strong score that deviates heavily from the formula than a mediocre “Bondian” score. The series is evolving and the music needs to evolve with it.

    This is why I think Romer will be fine. CJF felt comfortable with him as the composer, and that's good enough for me.
  • The ideal score strikes a balance of both of these things, imo. You can follow the structure of a Bond score and experiment with and add unique touches to it, the same way a director can with the film. It shouldn't be one or the other.
    Preach.

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