NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Discuss Hans Zimmer's Score

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  • Posts: 3,327
    mtm wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    The problem for me is that only John Barry can do John Barry. Arnold may have gotten the surface level of the Barry sound but the scores lacked the substance of what made those Barry scores masterful. Once Newman came on board it was like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in a long time I could actually feel the music building up tension during the SKYFALL PTS.

    Whatever Romer does, I hope it’s engrossing and not too slavish to Barry. Bond deserves to move forward and not become stagnant.

    I didn't mind Newman on Skyfall. Like you said, it felt like a fresh departure from Arnold's tenure.

    But by SP it became apparent Newman was a one-trick pony, and he couldn't pull off what Arnold had done with Bond. SP sounded worn out, tired, repeat mode throughout most of it.

    Arnold was just getting into his stride by CR and QoS, which are definitely his best scores for Bond, and he was just about getting the Barry sound perfected.

    I put an example on earlier showing the moon landing sequence on First Man. This evoked Barry without sounding too slavish. If Romer goes for something like that he'll be fine. It remains to be seen whether Romer can pull this type of sound off though, from every example I've heard so far. I'm not very convinced currently, but really hope I'm proved wrong.

    We listened to different soundtracks, then. SP wasn't as good as SF, but it was still better than most of Arnold's output. In particular the following tracks: Madeleine's theme, Donna Lucia, the Los Muertos music in the beginning (fantastic mix of Latin beats and the Bond theme), L'Americain, Vauxhall Bridge, and Silver Wraith.

    I hate to say it, because Arnold's work was quite good on CR and QoS, but he isn't in Newman's class. Not close.

    Absolutely: and class is the word. Newman's scores feel rich and sophisticated, just like the world of James Bond should. Arnold's scores are fun, but they're thin and a bit cheap-feeling.

    "Rich and sophisticated"


    "Thin and a bit cheap-feeling"

    Yep; that's what those sound like to me. Not quite sure what your point was other than to prove mine! :) Listen to the lovely layering in that Newman one.
    Let me know when Arnold gets nominated for some Oscars... or indeed gets any movie work ;) That's a bit mean; I like Arnold's stuff as much as the next fan, but there's an extra dimension to Newman's stuff which I just don't find to be there in Arnold's.
    The fact that you need to mock Arnold for not getting an Oscar nomination or working less than Newman does is rather telling. Both facts are totally unrelated to music quality and you only mention those to support your thesis that Newman is better than Arnold. Ridiculous.

    Well I admitted it was mean, but Newman will go down as one of the more important and, well, best composers of the last 50 years and Arnold won't. I don't find that unrelated to music quality at all: it's entirely concerning music quality. There's no need to be oversensitive about it: no-one's telling you you're wrong for enjoying it. I've happily listened to the Arnold soundtracks for years.

    Newman may well go down as an important composer outside of Bond. Yes, I like a lot of his work outside Bond too. But for the 2 Bond films he did (SP in particular), he was pure garbage. Simple as that. Arnold was light years ahead of Newman.

    Arnold will be thought of far more highly by Bond fans than Newman ever will. Newman isn't fit to lace up Arnold's shoelaces, IMO.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Arnold made the score for Independence Day which is arguably one of the best movie soundtracks ever, I don't think Newman ever did something as beautiful as that.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    "Pure garbage"? Come on, now.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Walecs wrote: »
    Arnold made the score for Independence Day which is arguably one of the best movie soundtracks ever, I don't think Newman ever did something as beautiful as that.

    I like that score, but one of the best? If screaming orchestras and unbalanced percussion loudness is your thing, then yes, I guess. ;-)
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    Arnold made the score for Independence Day which is arguably one of the best movie soundtracks ever, I don't think Newman ever did something as beautiful as that.

    I like that score, but one of the best? If screaming orchestras and unbalanced percussion loudness is your thing, then yes, I guess. ;-)

    There is a reason why it's a concert piece to this day in events across America. It's iconic.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    TripAces wrote: »
    Newman couldn't hold a candle to Arnold when it came down to scoring an action scene. I could take Arnold's worst track and it would still be better than what Newman provided for SP, which boils down to temp music.

    Action music is not especially memorable, no matter who the composer is. It's not the stuff I want on my speakers while I'm sipping a martini. So I usually "drop" those tracks from my Bond playlists.

    For me it's just the opposite. Whether it's Barry, Martin, Arnold, or even Newman, I gravitate towards the action cues. Then again I don't listen to Bond music while sipping martinis - rather during my commute and good luck trying to enjoy 'Wine with Stacey' with all the surrounding environment's noise.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Fair enough. I think it goes down easily and it's probably one of my most-listened-to scores ever, believe it or not. In my mid-teens, I had this score in heavy rotation. But as I matured to more refined film music, I realised that Arnold was still a rough diamond at this stage. When the ships enter through our clouds, I wonder if Arnold is trying to pierce my eardrums rather than provide ominous music. The first assault against the aliens comes with percussion that rearranges my furniture rather than beat me into excitement. I'm exaggerating, of course, but all I mean to say is, it's a good score, but not one of the best IMO. Then again, "good", "one of the best", ... these are vague gradings anyway. ;-)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Yeah, I'm not sure I'd call it one of the "greats". Simply being bombastic and melodic isn't everything. It's a serviceable score for a cheesy alien invasion movie, but iconic? Let's not get carried away. But I get it, Arnold's biggest fan base is naturally Bond fans, so there's much more enthusiasm for his work. Though outside of that fan base, I don't see too much championing for his non-Bond works.

    I can't make fun of him for not doing as many movies as he used to. I can see why he doesn't do much movies given his past collaborators aren't as active anymore. Michael Apted doesn't work as much anymore as he's getting older. John Singleton passed away just recently, and his output was already becoming less and less. Then there's Roland Emmerich, who Arnold had a falling out over GODZILLA, which must have been pretty toxic because he wasn't even invited to score the sequel.
  • DCisaredDCisared Liverpool
    Posts: 1,329
    I wonder if we might get some more of Newman’s ‘madeleine’ in NTTD. I’d like that.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Yeah, I'm not sure I'd call it one of the "greats". Simply being bombastic and melodic isn't everything. It's a serviceable score for a cheesy alien invasion movie, but iconic? Let's not get carried away. But I get it, Arnold's biggest fan base is naturally Bond fans, so there's much more enthusiasm for his work. Though outside of that fan base, I don't see too much championing for his non-Bond works.

    I can't make fun of him for not doing as many movies as he used to. I can see why he doesn't do much movies given his past collaborators aren't as active anymore. Michael Apted doesn't work as much anymore as he's getting older. John Singleton passed away just recently, and his output was already becoming less and less. Then there's Roland Emmerich, who Arnold had a falling out over GODZILLA, which must have been pretty toxic because he wasn't even invited to score the sequel.

    Well said, @MakeshiftPython!

    The sequel to ID4 could have used Arnold, to be sure.

    In my opinion, Arnold matured with the Bonds. His last two scores are his best scores in my opinion, Bond and beyond. Stargate, ID4 and Godzilla were, indeed, bombastic and melodic, playful and adventurous, but they lack the more balanced, refined qualities of CR and QoS. His score for Shaft is probably the one I listen to the most nowadays. It's funky and "cool" and it plays at the intersection of the '70s and the techno '90s.

    I wouldn't be against an Arnold score for NTTD, but I'm also rather intrigued by the hiring of Romer. I guess we'll see what he delivers first, before I start screaming for a return of Arnold.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I think more Bond fans should feel grateful to have an opportunity to hear someone new have a crack at a Bond score, rather than dismiss them just because they're not David Arnold.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited August 2019 Posts: 8,217
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Fair enough. I think it goes down easily and it's probably one of my most-listened-to scores ever, believe it or not. In my mid-teens, I had this score in heavy rotation. But as I matured to more refined film music, I realised that Arnold was still a rough diamond at this stage. When the ships enter through our clouds, I wonder if Arnold is trying to pierce my eardrums rather than provide ominous music. The first assault against the aliens comes with percussion that rearranges my furniture rather than beat me into excitement. I'm exaggerating, of course, but all I mean to say is, it's a good score, but not one of the best IMO. Then again, "good", "one of the best", ... these are vague gradings anyway. ;-)

    True, as always @DarthDimi ;)

    Though the moment you talk of (and I hear the music as I type this) is one of my favourite bits of music in the score. To one it might sound unbalanced, but I love how real the percussion sounds in that track. I can visualise the section pounding out those tribal style hits when I hear it.

    I actually much prefer GODZILLA to INDEPENDENCE DAY, myself.
    Yeah, I'm not sure I'd call it one of the "greats". Simply being bombastic and melodic isn't everything. It's a serviceable score for a cheesy alien invasion movie, but iconic? Let's not get carried away. But I get it, Arnold's biggest fan base is naturally Bond fans, so there's much more enthusiasm for his work. Though outside of that fan base, I don't see too much championing for his non-Bond works.

    I can't make fun of him for not doing as many movies as he used to. I can see why he doesn't do much movies given his past collaborators aren't as active anymore. Michael Apted doesn't work as much anymore as he's getting older. John Singleton passed away just recently, and his output was already becoming less and less. Then there's Roland Emmerich, who Arnold had a falling out over GODZILLA, which must have been pretty toxic because he wasn't even invited to score the sequel.

    You can call it serviceable, but the score is iconic. Its use as a fanfare at events is proof enough of that as a fact, regardless of whether you like the score or not. Something can be iconic even if not everyone thinks it's world class. I'm not huge on Bill Conti's ROCKY score beyond its fanfare, but it would be foolish of me to deny that it is an iconic fanfare.
    Not everything is blind fanboyism. A huge portion of Arnold admirers, like myself, come from the STARGATE/INDEPENDENCE DAY stage of his career, pre-Bond.

    There is plenty of championing for his non-Bond works. Almost any film music critic and/or film writer worth their salt has positive things to say about it, usually lamenting that he has turned down several gigs to focus on stage and TV (rightly or wrongly, but he seems happy). The conflict during Godzilla arose from Emmerich absolutely butchering the score in the edit. Arnold has since said that there was never any bad blood, but the story surrounding that debacle were around for a long time anyway.
    The scores for the Emmerich films skyrocketed Arnold's status, which led to people offering comparisons to John Williams, which then proved to be quite ironic when it was Williams that replaced Arnold on THE PATRIOT. Of course, times have changed since then, for all involved.

    But, while it is important to not get carried away for sure, it's equally as important to not dilute or underestimate just how popular those scores still are among the film music community - and in ID4's case, the public's mind. More people know that theme than don't.



    But anyway, DAN ROMER.

    Romer was heavily involved in post-production with CJF on BEASTS OF NO NATION. Now, his score on that film was more straightforward, with 90% of it created in a studio using samples, but still.....it was good to see a composer be so involved with the director in the edit. Considering how much bigger NTTD is as a project, I wonder will Romer be much more prominent - rather than just turning up, doing his thing, and heading home?

    It could also bode well for his involvement with a title song, something that is very important for a Bond score as pointed out by @RC7 on the last page.
  • DoctorNoDoctorNo USA-Maryland
    edited August 2019 Posts: 755
    h
    I think more Bond fans should feel grateful to have an opportunity to hear someone new have a crack at a Bond score, rather than dismiss them just because they're not David Arnold.
    They should be open to it. Grateful only comes if it’s good.
  • GertGettlerGertGettler Laptop Barcelona
    Posts: 431
    Some like David Arnold. Some like Thomas Newman. Isn't it wonderful :-)?
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    edited August 2019 Posts: 3,157
    DoctorNo wrote: »
    h
    I think more Bond fans should feel grateful to have an opportunity to hear someone new have a crack at a Bond score, rather than dismiss them just because they're not David Arnold.
    They should be open to it. Grateful only comes if it’s good.

    Agreed. Appreciation must be earned. So far Romer has never composed anything remotely akin to Bond style. Some pretty good atmosphere/mood pieces, but nothing bombastic or melodic or something with an identity. I'm not trying to use that as proof of him being a bad composer - he simply worked on movies/shows which asked for mood pieces and he delivered in that. Hence why I'm giving the benefit of the doubt since Bond is going to be his biggest work yet. But at the same time I can't help but wish that Arnold returned.
    I'd rather have Arnold because I love his scores and I know he'd deliver a score I would enjoy. With Romer, it's a mystery

    So, is being happy for Romer wrong? Not at all, especially if you think that Arnold was not appropriate for Bond and some fresh blood is certainly good news for you.
    But should Arnold fans be grateful to hear someone new? There's no reason to think they should.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    Some like David Arnold. Some like Thomas Newman. Isn't it wonderful :-)?

    Some like both, and that's why things are never boring! ;)
    Walecs wrote: »
    DoctorNo wrote: »
    h
    I think more Bond fans should feel grateful to have an opportunity to hear someone new have a crack at a Bond score, rather than dismiss them just because they're not David Arnold.
    They should be open to it. Grateful only comes if it’s good.

    Agreed. Appreciation must be earned. So far Romer has never composed anything remotely akin to Bond style. Some pretty good atmosphere/mood pieces, but nothing bombastic or melodic or something with an identity. I'm not trying to use that as proof of him being a bad composer - he simply worked on movies/shows which asked for mood pieces and he delivered in that. Hence why I'm giving the benefit of the doubt since Bond is going to be his biggest work yet. But at the same time I can't help but wish that Arnold returned.
    I'd rather have Arnold because I love his scores and I know he'd deliver a score I would enjoy. With Romer, it's a mistery

    So, is being happy for Romer wrong? Not at all, especially if you think that Arnold was not appropriate for Bond and some fresh blood is certainly good news for you.
    But should Arnold fans be grateful to hear someone new? There's no reason to think they should.

    +1

    I'm excited to hear what Romer does. It isn't his usual thing (just like it isn't Fukanaga's), as you say, so it will likely push him out of his comfort zone and yield some really interesting results in one way or another. These guys are extremely talented.

    It's another aspect of NTTD that is a mystery, and I'm looking forward to the reveal of it all despite him not being a choice I would have went with. I would like to see Pemberton given a crack of the conductor's baton one day. I've also been an advocate of Clint Mansell since I heard his music for SAHARA a long time ago. It is the end result that matters.

    As mentioned above, I do like how Romer gets involved with post beyond just composing the music. It shows some real collaborative metal.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    Walecs wrote: »
    Arnold made the score for Independence Day which is arguably one of the best movie soundtracks ever, I don't think Newman ever did something as beautiful as that.

    I'm a bit confused by this. ID is a fun score, but I've never heard it regarded as one of the best ever. It's just.... not. And the idea that Thomas Newman never did anything beautiful... it's kind of like reading a post from opposite land! :)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2019 Posts: 16,420
    Some like David Arnold. Some like Thomas Newman. Isn't it wonderful :-)?

    I can enjoy both :) I can just see the strengths each has over the other: Arnold is more of a hummable tunes sort of composer, and he comes up with some very nice ones, which Newman doesn't or can't really do. Newman is more of a soundscape kind of composer and manages to evoke a feeling and rich quality which Arnold's slightly more thin, insubstantial stuff doesn't really manage. They're not doing the same thing.
    Of course John Barry does all of the above, and with knobs on! I'm sure we can agree that he's above the both of them, and I'm sure they'd agree too! :)
  • ContrabandContraband Sweden
    Posts: 3,022
    Know it's the wrong thread but Italian media today:

    Ed Sheeran and Andrea Bocelli will sign the soundtrack of the film "No time to die" with James Bond

    Ed Sheeran and Andrea Bocelli will sign the soundtrack of the film "No time to die" with James Bond, entrusted to Lotus Production. Filming started last week in the city of Matera and will continue until September 17th, but rumors are also on the soundtrack. Abandoned the idea Dua Lipa the British Lotus has decided to focus on the house artist Ed Sheeran but since the film also turns in Italy has seen fit to combine the king of world pop also a star of the world firmament "Made in Italy "As far as opera music is concerned, Andrea Bocelli. A winning choice since Ed Sheeran and Andrea Bocelli have already signed a great artistic collaboration. The videoclip will be filmed in Matera and on the wild beach of Marina di Pisticci, where an inspection has already taken place with the presence of producer Barbara Broccoli and the artist Ed Sheeran.

    On 26 September 2017, the king of world pop Ed Sheeran has in fact published a special version of "Perfect" engraved together with Andrea Bocelli, who interprets a text in Italian, alongside that already present in English. The disc, renamed "Perfect Symphony" immediately became viral on Youtube with over 205 million views.

    Sassi

  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Never trust the Italian media.
  • GertGettlerGertGettler Laptop Barcelona
    Posts: 431
    Walecs wrote: »
    Never trust the Italian media.

    So far that little trash-paper Sassi had everything correct with regard to filming most stuff in Italy. Pretty early on during pre-production already….
  • Didn't Sassi live say that the movie was called The Mater Spy too?
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    No Time To Mater Spy
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    Yeah, if Sheeran and Bocelli hadn't worked together before I'd think it was too odd a pairing to be made up, but as they have it smacks of being a fabrication.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    Let's hope Romer knocks it out of the park.

    I'm not too familiar with his work to be honest. I have listened to some of his stuff and I can't say I have heard anything remotely Bondian, but that doesn't mean he can't do it.

    I suppose anything will be an upgrade on Newman. His generic, repeated scores really hurt Spectre and Skyfall, for me.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    The way I see it, Romer is still 'new' enough to this game of film composing not to be tied to one particular trademark style. He still has the ability to experiment, to explore new ground. Plus, my assumption is that it's always best for Bond composers to not lose track of the well-known Bondian flavours. By that, I mean that even if a composer, initially, feels somewhat lost in this challenge, he can still rely on a template. Doesn't mean he has to follow it religiously, but at least it's a place to start.

    What's more, is that Romer was asked if he wanted to do it. Knowing Bond, knowing that the ears of the world, or at least of a very vocal fan base, will be on him, he probably didn't say yes on a whim. He must have thought it through. So there's at least some guarantee, in my opinion, that he understands Bond music and knows what he's in for, i.e. that we won't be satisfied with the kind of ambient tunes that come with the average Netflix film, but that we will demand a whole lot more.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Romer's score really is more of a mystery than we have had in a long time. It's the unknown quantity of this film if you will.

    Newman is a highly respected composer, almost Hollywood royalty and part of a musical dynasty.

    There was plenty of his work out there to get an idea of what his score was going to be like, also whether you like his scores or not he did lean quite a bit on his own trademark sound for his Bond scores

    I know some disagree but I think he was thinking more of the Newman sound than he was of the Bond sound.

    We can call it arrogance if we like because of his stature but I hold the opinion he wasn't much swayed by the legacy of the series music (primarily Barry) or if he was he didn't pay it the same kind of heed that Arnold did.

    Romer on the other hand as some of us have already pointed out is much different, he's relatively new to the game and this isn't just the next gig for him and he knows it.

    This could well change the direction of his career, he hasn't got Newman's legacy and just being arrogant and composing a score that he thinks fits the bill with no consideration for the Barry sound like some here are fearing, I think is unlikely.

    I think we are going to get a very interesting score and someone very much looking to show the world what he can do, Bond scores aren't exactly just any scoring job they are attached to the longest running iconic film series of all time, this indeed a big deal, especially the way the DC era has affected the brand.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    It is a big deal regardless of the era. Everyone who steps into this should be aware that their score will be listened to and ranked by fanboys for decades to come. You need to bring your A game.
  • DoctorNoDoctorNo USA-Maryland
    edited September 2019 Posts: 755
    people keep talking about the gig like it means he will deliver... Yes the composer will be aware that it’s high profile and will get reviewed and be scrutinized and could be career changing... still doesn’t mean he will actually deliver if it isn’t in him.

    I hope like others here have said that he brings a sense of identity for the film itself, is memorable and not aesthetic soundscapes, and also uses the locations to help give flavor to the music.

    I can’t wait to hear it, so it is exciting having the unknown... and it’s also the only way to ever get a John Barry again... you have to let people try to find that person. Not a clone of Barry, but I mean someone whose great like Barry was. I say that having wanted Arnold back... not because he was greatness, but because he was good with some great moments that were Barryesque
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    I think we are all crying out for something Barry-esque.
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