NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Discuss Hans Zimmer's Score

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  • edited November 2019 Posts: 3,327
    Made my day this news. Great stuff! Romer should have been booted out on his backside a long time ago, in fact he should never have been considered in the first place.

    Now come on EON and do the right thing to correct this madness, and bring in the only man fit for this job - David Arnold.

    No other composer gets Bond (and Barry) like he does. Arnold should be the first person on the crew list every time a new Bond film is made. To me he is just as important to Bond as Daniel Craig is.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited November 2019 Posts: 8,179
    Zekidk wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    The catch 22 is that no one will ever be Barry , but with his music he created a element that is an integral part of the cinematic James Bond ; but, when a composer employs these established motifs they are often accused of aping Barry.
    All I know is that I want a Bond score to sound like a Bond score; and to a degree that will sound like someone trying to be Barry. I can live with that.

    Most composers like Bill Conti did a good balance of the Bond sound and their own, which is all I ask for. Another issue I have with Arnold is that he has a tendency to overwrite and turn drama into melodrama. For example the scene with Bond and Paris at the hotel. It’s way too over the top when another composer like Barry or any other composer would have had a more delicate hand in writing it.

    It funny that you use Conti as an example; his score almost makes FYEO unwatchable for me .
    Conti is a great composer (he scored 'Rocky'), but like so many others in the late 70's/early 80's he used "modern sound", meaning 1st generation synthesizers that soon sounded dated. 'Scarface' is another cringeworthy example. And TSWLM in large parts, btw.

    WHAT?!!!




    Moroder’s score for SCARFACE is perfect! It’s a movie deeply rooted in the early 1980s and the synth score perfectly compliments it. Just like the OHMSS theme grooves with the moog synths of 1969.

  • Posts: 3,274
    @MakeshiftPython

    A gangster epic with a theme, that sounds like it was lifted from a porn-movie?
    tenor.gif?itemid=7663264

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited November 2019 Posts: 8,179
    For a gangster epic set in 1983 Miami?

    giphy.gif

    What’s next, no Sicilian themed music for THE GODFATHER?
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    edited November 2019 Posts: 8,195
    Zekidk wrote: »
    @MakeshiftPython

    A gangster epic with a theme, that sounds like it was lifted from a porn-movie?

    Scarfacial? 😏
  • Posts: 17,740
    talos7 wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    @MakeshiftPython

    A gangster epic with a theme, that sounds like it was lifted from a porn-movie?

    Scarfacial? 😏

    giphy.gif
  • edited November 2019 Posts: 255
    Lorne Balfe would be a good choice.

    16 Min. of his work on M:I-6

  • Now come on EON and do the right thing to correct this madness, and bring in the only man fit for this job - David Arnold.
    Hell yes. ^:)^
  • edited November 2019 Posts: 3,274
    For a gangster epic set in 1983 Miami?

    What’s next, no Sicilian themed music for THE GODFATHER?

    You are comparing violins, strings and mandolins with a Moog synthesizer?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    Zekidk wrote: »
    For a gangster epic set in 1983 Miami?

    What’s next, no Sicilian themed music for THE GODFATHER?

    You are comparing violins, strings and mandolins with a Moog synthesizer?

    If John Barry had a more strictly classical approach to music, we wouldn’t have the very Bond theme that opened DR. NO.

    Strings, horns, moog, drum machines? All valid instruments that can make great music.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The shape and names of the instruments are not important. The effect on the human spirit is.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    The shape and names of the instruments are not important. The effect on the human spirit is.

    +1
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    Bernie99 wrote: »
    Lorne Balfe would be a good choice.

    16 Min. of his work on M:I-6


    I like Lorne and I like that score but I wouldn't want him anywhere near Bond.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    Yeah, I’d rather have Zimmer himself rather than one of his protégés.
  • The shape and names of the instruments are not important. The effect on the human spirit is.
    I agree, that's why David Arnold scores are better to me. :x
  • Posts: 3,274
    The shape and names of the instruments are not important. The effect on the human spirit is.
    I guess it's not important for some, that Bond movies are scored with strings, horn and brass rather than with harmonicas and banjos.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,767
    Well that's hyperbole and stretching things, but in general there shouldn't be limits on instruments used for Bond music if they support the overall tone of the film. Likely with horns and strings anyway.

    Maybe used for establishing an international locale. Like LA.
    (Lower Alabama).

    Harmonica https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB-yz58Ril8

    Banjo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSfAtFu_LdA

    "Thunderball", Johnny Cash https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSfAtFu_LdA

    "James Bond Theme", Robot Quadrotors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sUeGC-8dyk

    "James Bond Theme", Boomwackers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwK9IvF7N5s
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    Zekidk wrote: »
    The shape and names of the instruments are not important. The effect on the human spirit is.
    I guess it's not important for some, that Bond movies are scored with strings, horn and brass rather than with harmonicas and banjos.

    No one is advocating the use of banjos and harmonicas, so I don’t see what point you’re making there. John Barry seemed perfectly content with experimenting with the Bond sound as far back as the 60s, which I can’t blame him given the many times he had to score and find new ways of keeping them feeling fresh. Because of his more liberal use of instruments we got great pieces like this:





    If you rather Bond films stick to a more conservative orchestra, fair enough.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    Last thing I'd like for a Bond film is a Zimmer simulacrum.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited November 2019 Posts: 4,043
    Trying to please Bond fans with scores these days is almost an impossible task.

    Whereas some need to appreciate what Newman did, I think is SF score has some real inspired moments but I definitely found Arnold's CR and QOS score more memorable.

    It's down to, does the composer set the mood and accompany the scene appropriately like Barry did, although Barry also made it memorable and melodic.

    It seems composers can only do one or the other these days and not both like Barry could.

    Arnold didn't have nowhere the hit ratio that Barry did but then Barry was an innovator, its like comparing Oasis to the Beatles. Maybe that is harsh because at least Arnold has varied his sound rather than banging out the same old tired sound since day one.

    Trying to please us all is an impossible task at the end of the day.
  • edited November 2019 Posts: 5,767
    talos7 wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    What made his scores for CR and QoS so effective was that he was released from the constraints of having to sound like Barry. Wasn’t it mandated that he not use the Bond theme and other established motifs?
    I absolutely love these two scores and would love to hear him build on them and close out Daniel’s tenure.

    My understanding is that he didn’t necessarily have constraints put on him in the Brosnan era. All instances of using the Bond theme was on his own accord, and his general approach was “if Bond does something Bondian, I throw in the theme” which he did A LOT in Brosnan’s run. It was Campbell that told him to hold back on the theme so that when it would appear full blast at the end it would truly feel special, which I think Arnold learned for QOS.

    To a degree, and I like the Brosnan films , the entire franchise of that era was guilty of cranking up the “ look how Bond we are” elements, all culminating with DAD.
    Arnold was not the only “guilty” party.

    Certainly, but it’s telling even in GE with all of the “greatest hits” thrown in that Serra still managed to do his own thing without Campbell telling him “no no no, use the theme more for this and this!” Unless Arnold has stated that he was pressured to use the theme more, it was always on his own accord.
    I dare say it was obvious that after being critisised for GE for not sounding Bondian enough everybody involved tried to make the next film sound more "Bondian".


    talos7 wrote: »
    The catch 22 is that no one will ever be Barry , but with his music he created a element that is an integral part of the cinematic James Bond ; but, when a composer employs these established motifs they are often accused of aping Barry.
    All I know is that I want a Bond score to sound like a Bond score; and to a degree that will sound like someone trying to be Barry. I can live with that.

    Most composers like Bill Conti did a good balance of the Bond sound and their own, which is all I ask for. Another issue I have with Arnold is that he has a tendency to overwrite and turn drama into melodrama. For example the scene with Bond and Paris at the hotel. It’s way too over the top when another composer like Barry or any other composer would have had a more delicate hand in writing it.
    Barry worked in different times. He could allow himself to write much less music for the whole film. I prefer this approach a lot, but I don´t blame Arnold for his overscoring, because he is very aware of the producers´ demands, it´s a symptom of the times.



    talos7 wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    The catch 22 is that no one will ever be Barry , but with his music he created a element that is an integral part of the cinematic James Bond ; but, when a composer employs these established motifs they are often accused of aping Barry.
    All I know is that I want a Bond score to sound like a Bond score; and to a degree that will sound like someone trying to be Barry. I can live with that.

    Most composers like Bill Conti did a good balance of the Bond sound and their own, which is all I ask for. Another issue I have with Arnold is that he has a tendency to overwrite and turn drama into melodrama. For example the scene with Bond and Paris at the hotel. It’s way too over the top when another composer like Barry or any other composer would have had a more delicate hand in writing it.

    It funny that you use Conti as an example; his score almost makes FYEO unwatchable for me .
    Oh well, different strokes for different folks.
    Why? Because of the elevator music in some action scenes? I find that music very amusing. But most of the time the music doesn´t sound that much different from other Bond films. The bass line I think when Bond enters the hotel in Cortina is one of my favorite Bond sounds of all times.


    Zekidk wrote:
    Conti is a great composer (he scored 'Rocky'), but like so many others in the late 70's/early 80's he used "modern sound", meaning 1st generation synthesizers that soon sounded dated. 'Scarface' is another cringeworthy example. And TSWLM in large parts, btw.
    1st generation synthsesizers? What was it then that Pink Floyd and Jean-Michel Jarre used ten years earlier ;-)?


    Shardlake wrote: »
    Trying to please Bond fans with scores these days is almost an impossible task.

    Whereas some need to appreciate what Newman did, I think is SF score has some real inspired moments but I definitely found Arnold's CR and QOS score more memorable.

    It's down to, does the composer set the mood and accompany the scene appropriately like Barry did, although Barry also made it memorable and melodic.

    It seems composers can only do one or the other these days and not both like Barry could.

    Arnold didn't have nowhere the hit ratio that Barry did but then Barry was an innovator, its like comparing Oasis to the Beatles. Maybe that is harsh because at least Arnold has varied his sound rather than banging out the same old tired sound since day one.

    Trying to please us all is an impossible task at the end of the day.
    It´s out of the question that a) Arnold is much more limited in his talent than Barry (saying this as a huge fan of Arnold´s music!), and b) the film music business has totally changed, Arnold lives in an age where film composers are much more hired to merely accompany a film and enhance the already existing mood, rather than (as Goldsmith described it) adding to the film what is not there without the music. Another thing is that we live in a derivative time, where every composer is supposed to be able to emulate every major composer of the past, so that film producers can demand, "give us something that sounds like Williams" or "like Vangelis", so that naturally more pastiche is produced by demand of the producers. Of course it doesn´t help that Zimmer and his armada openly embrace their role as (as Zimmer or Lorne Balfe on one occasion indirectly formulated it) Hollywood whores.
    It´s a shame, because I think it´s a gross misconception. I´m sure that a strong, self-contained film score would sell at least as well as what we usually get these days.
  • Not familier with Dan Romer's work so I can't comment there. If he has left the production then it could be because he was let go by the producers (something they should have done with the trainwreck of a score that is GE) or maybe he decided to leave himself as he felt he wasn't able to bring the right sound for the film - or for any other number of reasons. Either way it happens quite often in film production even with some of the well know and respected composers in hollywood. I remember seeing a poster for the first Mission Impossible film with Alan Silvestri listed as composer - only to be replaced at the last minute by Danny Elfman as the score Silvestri produced was rejected by the filmmakers. Even the great John Barry left film productions after signing on to write the music for one reason or another. He left The Bodyguard and was replaced by Alan Silvestri and quit The Prince Of Tides and was replaced by James Newton Howard.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Being honest, I don't have a preference. So long as the Bond theme is actually used in all its glory this time, I really don't care who composes the film. Not that I could name many composers, mind. So long as the Bond theme is used properly, i'm open.
  • mtm wrote: »
    Lol, Arnold “too good” for Hollywood. Okie dokie.

    Haha I am curious though, was john Barry completely uk based or he never really worked in Hollywood?

    Barry lived in the States from the mid-70s onwards.

    No I was actually asking if he worked more in Hollywood productions?
    Hollywood used to be good enough for Barry but it’s not good enough for Arnold or any decent composer. Nothing but nonsense superhero films and stupid fantasy/horror or agenda-pushing films that are Oscar bait.

    But James Bond films are good enough? They're not nonsense at all?
    Absolutely not!! They’re some of the best films ever made! TSWLM and LALD are pretty much my 2 all-time favorite films. I’d throw in DIE HARD in there as well. And GLADIATOR.
  • mtm wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    The catch 22 is that no one will ever be Barry , but with his music he created a element that is an integral part of the cinematic James Bond ; but, when a composer employs these established motifs they are often accused of aping Barry.
    All I know is that I want a Bond score to sound like a Bond score; and to a degree that will sound like someone trying to be Barry. I can live with that.

    Most composers like Bill Conti did a good balance of the Bond sound and their own, which is all I ask for. Another issue I have with Arnold is that he has a tendency to overwrite and turn drama into melodrama. For example the scene with Bond and Paris at the hotel. It’s way too over the top when another composer like Barry or any other composer would have had a more delicate hand in writing it.

    It funny that you use Conti as an example; his score almost makes FYEO unwatchable for me .
    Oh well, different strokes for different folks.

    I used to find that myself but I've grown to like it. It's of its time. It's certainly more energetic, and to be honest more exciting than most of Barry's stuff from around that period.
    Whenever I'm skiing fast down a hill I try to hum OHMSS, but it's always Runaway that I actually hear! :D
    I absolutely agree!! Whenever I’m skiing all I hear in my head is “Runaway”. And sometimes “Bond 77”. Conti’s score is criminally underrated and my favorite score from 1981. You’re absolutely right that it makes the film much more energetic than the Barry scores for MR before or OP after (and I happen to love those scores as well as those films). But FYEO just has this fresh burst of energy that the other 2 don’t. Just a great ushering in of the 80s!!

  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,195
    boldfinger wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    What made his scores for CR and QoS so effective was that he was released from the constraints of having to sound like Barry. Wasn’t it mandated that he not use the Bond theme and other established motifs?
    I absolutely love these two scores and would love to hear him build on them and close out Daniel’s tenure.

    My understanding is that he didn’t necessarily have constraints put on him in the Brosnan era. All instances of using the Bond theme was on his own accord, and his general approach was “if Bond does something Bondian, I throw in the theme” which he did A LOT in Brosnan’s run. It was Campbell that told him to hold back on the theme so that when it would appear full blast at the end it would truly feel special, which I think Arnold learned for QOS.

    To a degree, and I like the Brosnan films , the entire franchise of that era was guilty of cranking up the “ look how Bond we are” elements, all culminating with DAD.
    Arnold was not the only “guilty” party.

    Certainly, but it’s telling even in GE with all of the “greatest hits” thrown in that Serra still managed to do his own thing without Campbell telling him “no no no, use the theme more for this and this!” Unless Arnold has stated that he was pressured to use the theme more, it was always on his own accord.
    I dare say it was obvious that after being critisised for GE for not sounding Bondian enough everybody involved tried to make the next film sound more "Bondian".


    talos7 wrote: »
    The catch 22 is that no one will ever be Barry , but with his music he created a element that is an integral part of the cinematic James Bond ; but, when a composer employs these established motifs they are often accused of aping Barry.
    All I know is that I want a Bond score to sound like a Bond score; and to a degree that will sound like someone trying to be Barry. I can live with that.

    Most composers like Bill Conti did a good balance of the Bond sound and their own, which is all I ask for. Another issue I have with Arnold is that he has a tendency to overwrite and turn drama into melodrama. For example the scene with Bond and Paris at the hotel. It’s way too over the top when another composer like Barry or any other composer would have had a more delicate hand in writing it.
    Barry worked in different times. He could allow himself to write much less music for the whole film. I prefer this approach a lot, but I don´t blame Arnold for his overscoring, because he is very aware of the producers´ demands, it´s a symptom of the times.



    talos7 wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    The catch 22 is that no one will ever be Barry , but with his music he created a element that is an integral part of the cinematic James Bond ; but, when a composer employs these established motifs they are often accused of aping Barry.
    All I know is that I want a Bond score to sound like a Bond score; and to a degree that will sound like someone trying to be Barry. I can live with that.

    Most composers like Bill Conti did a good balance of the Bond sound and their own, which is all I ask for. Another issue I have with Arnold is that he has a tendency to overwrite and turn drama into melodrama. For example the scene with Bond and Paris at the hotel. It’s way too over the top when another composer like Barry or any other composer would have had a more delicate hand in writing it.

    It funny that you use Conti as an example; his score almost makes FYEO unwatchable for me .
    Oh well, different strokes for different folks.
    Why? Because of the elevator music in some action scenes? I find that music very amusing. But most of the time the music doesn´t sound that much different from other Bond films. The bass line I think when Bond enters the hotel in Cortina is one of my favorite Bond sounds of all times.


    talos7 wrote: »
    Conti is a great composer (he scored 'Rocky'), but like so many others in the late 70's/early 80's he used "modern sound", meaning 1st generation synthesizers that soon sounded dated. 'Scarface' is another cringeworthy example. And TSWLM in large parts, btw.
    1st generation synthsesizers? What was it then that Pink Floyd and Jean-Michel Jarre used ten years earlier ;-)?


    Shardlake wrote: »
    Trying to please Bond fans with scores these days is almost an impossible task.

    Whereas some need to appreciate what Newman did, I think is SF score has some real inspired moments but I definitely found Arnold's CR and QOS score more memorable.

    It's down to, does the composer set the mood and accompany the scene appropriately like Barry did, although Barry also made it memorable and melodic.

    It seems composers can only do one or the other these days and not both like Barry could.

    Arnold didn't have nowhere the hit ratio that Barry did but then Barry was an innovator, its like comparing Oasis to the Beatles. Maybe that is harsh because at least Arnold has varied his sound rather than banging out the same old tired sound since day one.

    Trying to please us all is an impossible task at the end of the day.
    It´s out of the question that a) Arnold is much more limited in his talent than Barry (saying this as a huge fan of Arnold´s music!), and b) the film music business has totally changed, Arnold lives in an age where film composers are much more hired to merely accompany a film and enhance the already existing mood, rather than (as Goldsmith described it) adding to the film what is not there without the music. Another thing is that we live in a derivative time, where every composer is supposed to be able to emulate every major composer of the past, so that film producers can demand, "give us something that sounds like Williams" or "like Vangelis", so that naturally more pastiche is produced by demand of the producers. Of course it doesn´t help that Zimmer and his armada openly embrace their role as (as Zimmer or Lorne Balfe on one occasion indirectly formulated it) Hollywood whores.
    It´s a shame, because I think it´s a gross misconception. I´m sure that a strong, self-contained film score would sell at least as well as what we usually get these days.

    The second quote that you have credited to me , concerning the Synthesizer, is not mine.

    Either way, the score to FYEO shows the danger of doing a score that is too current or trendy..
  • edited November 2019 Posts: 3,274
    If you rather Bond films stick to a more conservative orchestra, fair enough.
    Not necessarily. I just want a score/sound that I don't think sounds dated after 10 years.
    That's why I am rooting for Arnold to come back. Here we have him blending classic sound with modern (from 01:32) and more than 20 years later it still sounds fresh:
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    I wish Arnold’s overall scores were as good as that one track.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,195
    I wish Arnold’s overall scores were as good as that one track.

    They are, with CR and QOS being even better. 😏
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    talos7 wrote: »
    I wish Arnold’s overall scores were as good as that one track.

    They are, with CR and QOS being even better. 😏

    DAD and QOS are really the only Arnold scores I find myself revisiting the most. DAD for basically being Arnold "let loose", and QOS being his most cohesive work. Forster assigning Arnold to base the writing of the score on the script rather than dailies did wonders.

    Everything else I wouldn't be upset about never hearing again.
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