The What if Amazon succeeds and makes Bond a streaming only film model?

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  • Posts: 1,005
    I can't play a "black Bond", but I would welcome another actor doing so. I'd have fun with a sexually fluid Bond tho haha
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 28 Posts: 16,660
    Troy wrote: »
    Ah yes, probably expressed that in a poor choice of words.

    What I was trying to say is that all change is not necessarily good - the onus should be on those making the change to explain why it would be beneficial. I gave Brexit as an example of a change that should have demonstrated the benefits before making the change.

    On the immigration point, I was (badly) making the point that Remain supporting media preferred to play the race card, with national newspapers like the Guardian and Independent claiming Brexiteers were racist, and therefore their readers should not vote for them. When actually, being in the EU meant half the immigration was overwhelmingly white, so Brexit actually led to a much more level playing field for different races to move to the UK - the implied opposite of the Guardian slurs. But then, when your argument is based on insulting your opponents, then you’ve probably lost the argument.

    Well we really are getting into politics now so shouldn't really go any further, but your points conflict a bit there: just because the truth of the situation may have been how you laid it out there, it doesn't mean that was the communicated benefit from those campaigning for leaving, and I think a lot of that was done on the basis that people thought they'd be seeing fewer foreigners coming in. I don't think we can exactly say, hand-on heart, that no one at all voted to leave from a position of bigotry. As you say, for a change of that nature the onus should be on the ones making the change as to why it would be beneficial.

    For a change of the nature we're talking about here, I'd argue it isn't much of a change at all; it seems to matter very little. And the onus would be on those who reject it to convince folks like me as to why it matters.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 14,017
    mtm wrote: »
    The hate spreading is literally what we're talking about, it's not a separate matter.

    We were, well I was anyway, talking about historical accuracy. I mentioned it in my 2nd post on this page. So it is a separate matter.
    mtm wrote: »
    I mean I'm just literally saying what I've seen written about it this afternoon, that the historical accuracy of the game (in many ways) is very much up for debate, I'm not talking about taking it on trust.
    That people would fight for it to ensure it's totally white over and above all other accuracy, well it certainly sounds like X/twitter, yes. Personally I think it's a bit like the Robin Hood thing above, most times when it comes to historical content in entertainment, the fidelity to the reality is less important than the effect it has on people today who are actually alive.

    They are from that part of the world, it's their history. What I am saying, is that I would believe the developers, over people who are criticising the game, just grifting for clicks.
    mtm wrote: »
    It felt a little disingenuous at the time, as if you were trying to shut down debate about them and accusing those who call them out for their hate and the damage they do as being the ones who were the jerk-offs (you made several comparisons to masturbation for some reason). Personally I don't sit there watching these people either, but I'm aware of what they do and the negative effect they have.
    I'm sure none of us here were fans of the CraigNotBond people, but that doesn't mean that we can't talk about them and reject the way they did Bond harm back then, all just because we didn't visit their site and read their nonsense.

    I don't see what would be 'disingenuous'. I remember before, when you got the bit between your teeth and said something about fighting against those Youtubers, they spread lies about films that harm the industry, and we should call them out to protect films. I remember thinking that that sounded like all that culture war silliness that I avoid.
    mtm wrote: »
    You can see why your point comes across as disingenuous though?

    No, because it doesn't.
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm not trying to catch you out or anything, but the hate filled YouTubers who want films and games changed to suit their particular outlook should just be ignored and not complained about, whereas folks who want a game changed to suit their opposite outlook should be complained about, called chumps, and deserve trolling? Why not just not read about their comments and not complain about them too? There must be a difference between them which you see as deserving a different response.

    Of course. "People" complaining about something, that they admit they are not interested in, to be changed to suit their view, makes no sense. Neither does your reaction to who I don't watch. I just think it's pointless.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,508
    Seems like a good time to end this discussion as it is drifting away from the "what if".

    Another aspect of the Variety article was that Amazon is pushing for "content" (which Barbara apparently bristles at). Currently EON is winning or at least resisting the pressure from Amazon for the content route.

    Amazon is likely also pitching that Bond become a streaming vehicle and not be about hitting the "big screen". Lets explore this, what if Bond becomes a streaming model going forward and doesn't do theatrical releases?

    What if Amazon wins and Bond content is created for Prime?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 28 Posts: 16,660
    mtm wrote: »
    The hate spreading is literally what we're talking about, it's not a separate matter.

    We were, well I was anyway, talking about historical accuracy. I mentioned it in my 2nd post on this page. So it is a separate matter.

    I thought you were talking about how the left or anti-wokers or whatever we're calling them are as bad as the other side.
    mtm wrote: »
    I mean I'm just literally saying what I've seen written about it this afternoon, that the historical accuracy of the game (in many ways) is very much up for debate, I'm not talking about taking it on trust.
    That people would fight for it to ensure it's totally white over and above all other accuracy, well it certainly sounds like X/twitter, yes. Personally I think it's a bit like the Robin Hood thing above, most times when it comes to historical content in entertainment, the fidelity to the reality is less important than the effect it has on people today who are actually alive.

    They are from that part of the world, it's their history. What I am saying, is that I would believe the developers, over people who are criticising the game, just grifting for clicks.

    As I say, I'm going by what historians have apparently been saying rather than trusting the guys whose work it is, because of course they'd say it was right. It just seems there's a debate around it, as there often is around history.
    mtm wrote: »
    It felt a little disingenuous at the time, as if you were trying to shut down debate about them and accusing those who call them out for their hate and the damage they do as being the ones who were the jerk-offs (you made several comparisons to masturbation for some reason). Personally I don't sit there watching these people either, but I'm aware of what they do and the negative effect they have.
    I'm sure none of us here were fans of the CraigNotBond people, but that doesn't mean that we can't talk about them and reject the way they did Bond harm back then, all just because we didn't visit their site and read their nonsense.

    I don't see what would be 'disingenuous'. I remember before, when you got the bit between your teeth and said something about fighting against those Youtubers, they spread lies about films that harm the industry, and we should call them out to protect films. I remember thinking that that sounded like all that culture war silliness that I avoid.

    So you thought you'd say I have a boner and jerk off about it? I mean, that really is culture war silliness isn't it? Insulting people because you don't like their point of view?
    I didn't realise you actually were aiming it at me specifically, but you seem to confirm that you were. That's kind of horrible.
    Even looking at that page here I can't see what you're talking about. I (and others) were just pointing out that they were telling lies.

    Is it that you think their lies don't harm things? We see their point of view and specific lies repeated a lot. I hate the culture wars too, which is why I mention it. Just ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

    mtm wrote: »
    I'm not trying to catch you out or anything, but the hate filled YouTubers who want films and games changed to suit their particular outlook should just be ignored and not complained about, whereas folks who want a game changed to suit their opposite outlook should be complained about, called chumps, and deserve trolling? Why not just not read about their comments and not complain about them too? There must be a difference between them which you see as deserving a different response.

    Of course. "People" complaining about something, that they admit they are not interested in, to be changed to suit their view, makes no sense. Neither does your reaction to who I don't watch. I just think it's pointless.

    I mean, that is still the same thing, so it's not really cleared up there.
    I don't have a reaction to who you watch or you don't: it's your choice. But you were passing an opinion on who I can talk and complain about, which is what seemed disingenuous as you phrased it as an 'I don't care', but in fact you seem to be saying you did indeed intend it as an attack.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,280
    Re: What if Amazon succeeds and makes Bond a streaming only film model?

    1) Quality will drop.
    2) The audience's interest will drop.
    3) Bond will become tainted goods.
    4) No more Bond in a long time.
  • LucknFate wrote: »
    LucknFate wrote: »
    My belief will always be pick the best actor for the job, with looking like the actual character being a tiebreaker (rather than a criteria). But I don't think that an actor of a different race should influence the story or the film in any way. At that point it goes from casting the best actor to changing the character needlessly, which would be fine in some franchises, but not in one that tries to adapt a character from a set of stories. Similarly, if the actor is gay, no problem, but that shouldn't mean changing Bond to a gay character.

    The male part I'm less ready to change. Bond is perhaps the biggest and longest lasting symbol for masculinity over the past 60 or so years and swapping Bond to a woman forces the film to acknowledge the change and changes the character significantly.
    LucknFate wrote: »
    I just always remind friends that, imagine talking to a nonwhite person about this. Are you really going to tell a nonwhite actor to their face that they can't play James Bond because they're not white? That's what it comes down to, none of us fortunately have this power, but that is the ultimate question. I could never do that based on "tradition." It just is not that serious.

    I mean as stated above I would accept a non-white Bond but this logic doesn't really make sense. So many questions kind of follow this road. Are you going to tell an actress to her face she can't play Bond because she's a woman? Are you going to tell an overweight man to his face he can't play Bond because of his weight? Are you to tell an actress to her face she can't be a Bond girl because she's not conventionally attractive?

    All of these are controversial grounds for denial and ultimately all can be soothed with "You aren't the image I wanted for such and such character."

    One is called casting and one is called racism. You figure it out. If the role is male, you don't cast a woman. If the role is for a skinny person, you cast that. Fleming said Bond was white but now many many fans and even Eon are now saying he doesn't have to be a white guy, and people are upset. I'm just saying, that's the convo Eon won't have. They won't tell a black person or asian person they can't play a role that has zero reason to remain white except for tradition. If this is hard for you I am sorry, I feel bad for your nonwhite friends. The tradition argument in this thread literally sounds like children who refuse to share. It's sad.

    Well Gregg Wilson is saying that the sex of the character doesn't matter. That's the "male" part of straight white male being modernised. People getting annoyed with that however isn't sexism. Similarly, with your logic, you equally could say that Bond is a white role, so you cast that. Bond is supposed to skinny, but both Brosnan and Connery were overweight for certain films. So are you going to turn down the overweight actor when the series has precedence for such casting? Now you could easily make the case that Brosnan and Connery's cases were different, but then what's the reason for not casting the overweight actor?

    People simply draw arbitrary lines because they want the character they enjoy to stay how they enjoyed said character in the past. That's ultimately what "tradition" means. Keep it the same for the same (relatively) positive results. Many key facets stay in Bond because of "tradition." What the hell is the point of the gunbarrel sequence on the story? We've seen it 25 times, each time Bond shoots his mark. Never mind keeping it at the start, why keep it?

    Some people draw their arbitrary line at race. I very much made clear that I don't. So you don't have to feel sorry for anyone. But I think it's a poor argument that it would difficult to say no to certain actors because of a superficial reason; because that happens all the time. I also think that doing something because of tradition is not bad at all. Traditions however, must be flexible and able to change, and I believe the tradition of the Bond actor being white is one of those.

    Race and weight are not at all the same and society does not approach them the same, so Bond shouldn't. Come on. This is kindergarten playground stuff. Withstanding what you now define as a white tradition and leaving out black people is pretty clear cut on the racism scale. I don't think you are racist but I do think arguing for tradition is a very bad look to a nonwhite person. If you can't convince the white fans who are open to a nonwhite actor about your argument, you're not going to convince nonwhite fans at all that Bond can only ever be white. At the end of the day, Fleming is dead, and who but IFP and Eon have a say? Nobody. It's up to them, and both of them seem open to playing with the character's definitions. So you've already lost as a fan, I'm sorry.

    I'm not losing anything! I've said twice now I'm fine with a nonwhite actor for Bond. This argument isn't about me and my opinions, but ultimately about what tradition is, and why it is important to the fanbase, and not always a bad thing.

    Of course race and weight are not the same issue. But the reason you (and many others) don't want an overweight Bond is because of tradition! Because of how it has mostly been done in the past! And you didn't even mention the female aspect of it. There is clamour from some to see a female Bond. Gregg Wilson seems to be also OK with that. So why not cast a woman? The answer is always going to come down to tradition. Some aspects of tradition are more crucial than another. Again same thing with the gunbarrel sequence. Some were fine with it being moved in Skyfall because of the opening shot. Many were fine with it being moved in CR because of the significance of earning 00 status. But ultimately if it was removed entirely, I don't think anybody would be happy because we would be losing a key part of Bond's brand.

    These examples are all to say that tradition is tradition because it is beneficial. Bond being white in itself is not beneficial, but it's beneficial because it provides a superficial connection back to the novels. Same thing as black hair for example. In my opinion, tradition should be broken because otherwise we limit the actor pool from potentially great actors. We broke the black hair tradition for Craig because he was a good actor, similar to how we could break the racial tradition.

    A comparison is for example a continuation novel. A continuation novel where Bond is black doesn't really gain much: the character doesn't gain from a race change and instead becomes further from Fleming's image: a negative. A film where Bond's actor is black has potential to gain: the actor has potential to give a great performance while also being a bit further from Bond's image: a positive.

    For some, this distancing is too much and it becomes a negative. The loss in tradition is not made up by with a positive performance: similar to the gap if a woman took charge. If that is the case, then saying "no" to an actor I don't think is racism. It's just a differing view on what makes Bond Bond, and the importance of those factors.
  • Posts: 1,005
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Re: What if Amazon succeeds and makes Bond a streaming only film model?

    1) Quality will drop.
    2) The audience's interest will drop.
    3) Bond will become tainted goods.
    4) No more Bond in a long time.

    Straight away you know the quality would drop. You'd lose that excitement feel of a no cinema release and lose prestige. Bond is high class.
  • edited December 28 Posts: 12,530
    If Amazon succeeds in making Bond a streaming-only film model, my guess is the quality will dip, and many fans will refuse to consider them "real" Bond films. To be honest, I'm pretty worried about the future of the franchise. The combination of the rocky road to getting NTTD and then the gap since then without good updates has definitely been a rough patch for the series. I expected to have to wait a while after NTTD for the next movie, but at the rate things are going, we could definitely see the longest stretch between two films yet. Makes it extra rough when SP to NTTD was already one of the longest. I just hope things can work out, and we still get to enjoy classic, theatrical Bond experiences with generally high quality. To be honest, no matter who ends up handling the series, I have a bad feeling they're going to get too far away from Bond's character moving forward.
  • Posts: 16,228
    I don't have Prime, and have no intention of getting Prime. Therefore, I'd probably rely on this forum to get an idea of what the new film is like.
    Hmm..........a James Bond movie that I actually skip..........well there has to be a first time for everything.
    A little dramatic, I suppose, but I'm awaiting a package from Amazon that was supposed to arrive yesterday.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,841
    IMO, SP is the last decent Bond film we will ever get until they realize that adapting the novels faithfully either in animation or semi-live action will be the best & most unexpectedly lucrative way to go. Or, they could make a couple more crappy & expensive live action streaming failures...
  • Posts: 15,250
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Re: What if Amazon succeeds and makes Bond a streaming only film model?

    1) Quality will drop.
    2) The audience's interest will drop.
    3) Bond will become tainted goods.
    4) No more Bond in a long time.

    I'd also add: Bond is diluted in various series featuring Q, Moneypenny, M, etc.
  • Posts: 1,474
    1. More movies or a TV series.
    2. Cheaper.
    3. More Fleming-esque
    Basically what happened with Jack Reacher
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,703
    Not everyone knows how to stream or cares to learn. Plus every time I've tried to stream something the quality wavers or cuts out. Best to release theatrically, promote the hell out of the fact, and then stream afterwards. More access options sounds like a better plan.

    Personally I'd miss my popcorn box and plastic cup collectible. Not to mention experiencing a brand new Bond film on a massive screen with friends and fans alike. Plus it gives the world a reason to get outside and touch grass.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,179
    I’ve always maintained that James Bond is an event movie.
    It should always be seen on a big screen first giving the audience and fans alike the chance to see the latest Bond film in all its glory.
    More than happy for it to join the streaming services like Prime, even getting a release on streaming sooner than is currently the norm, but a cinematic release only initially has to be the way to go.
  • Posts: 1,005
    No point in promoting it globally if the only audience is a couch potato. Remember that documentary Being Bond, that was on Prime a few months after the cinematic release. You could still have "added content".
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 14,017
    @mtm I'll keep this brief, as I am sure everyone else will soon get tired of this. I made the post, nearly 2 years ago, I never even mentioned you, so why you keep dredging it up is beyond me. Now, if there is anything to add, we can take it to pm's.
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