The What if NTTD is the last EON produced Bond film? page 62

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  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,606
    thedove wrote: »
    As Elliot Carver once said "This just in..."

    https://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/pierce-brosnan-first-approach-for-james-bond-1983?fbclid=IwAR2YXLFpqgYXTjx2Tua6_E3cfOyKNj3z2_CHBp-qsuJ9m_Sodvtysv2fdmQ

    Looks like Cubby was a fan of Pierce before TLD and way before GE. It seems to be coming out that Pierce screen tested for the role in late 1983 to take over as Bond in AVTAK. Wow, one wonders how a new Bond would have improved AVTAK. Can we imagine Pierce and Walken sharing a screen? Or even Pierce and David Bowie (who was rumoured for the Zorin role).

    This would have altered things quite a bit from what we got had it happened. One wonders if Dalton would have lost his chance to become Bond and whether Brosnan would have added 3 more films to this run. What happens with LTK? Could Pierce pull that off? Or would a return to Fleming be put on hold for a tone more in line with Brosnan's other Bond films?

    What say you Mi6? What if Pierce Brosnan had starred in AVTAK?

    AVTAK's script was so tired and recycled(essentially a GF rehash that could've easily been titled Microchip-Finger) I would not have wanted either Brosnan or Dalton to make their 007 debut with it, at least not without a major script overhaul prior to shooting. As it stands, it's a little easier to overlook AVTAK's many faults as a finale for Sir Rog past his prime rather than as an exciting debut for a younger, new Bond lead actor. That stated I have in the past imagined a "what if?" standalone version of AVTAK with a 1985 Brosnan and with Priscilla Barnes(Mrs. Leiter from LTK) as Stacy Sutton. Essentially it may have played like Remington Steele with Teri Alden as his leading lady.

    If the script for AVTAK is criticized, I'm sure Richard Maibaum would blame someone else.
  • Speaking of AVTAK plot, I always thought that Wilson and Ruggiero's Bond 17 screenplay better used the microchip angle with Sir Henry Ching manufacturing critical components used in every British navigation, communication, weapon and missile guidance systems, allowing him to remotely paralyze and control them. For those who didn't read the script, Chiang intends to start a war between England and China by forcing a Royal Navy submarine to fire a missile at Shanghai. It's better than wanting to become the leading supplier of microchips in the world in my opinion. And closer to literary Drax (an established businessman who intends to turn his technology against the country he has been working for) who happens to share with Zorin a WW2 background.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,277
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    As Elliot Carver once said "This just in..."

    https://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/pierce-brosnan-first-approach-for-james-bond-1983?fbclid=IwAR2YXLFpqgYXTjx2Tua6_E3cfOyKNj3z2_CHBp-qsuJ9m_Sodvtysv2fdmQ

    Looks like Cubby was a fan of Pierce before TLD and way before GE. It seems to be coming out that Pierce screen tested for the role in late 1983 to take over as Bond in AVTAK. Wow, one wonders how a new Bond would have improved AVTAK. Can we imagine Pierce and Walken sharing a screen? Or even Pierce and David Bowie (who was rumoured for the Zorin role).

    This would have altered things quite a bit from what we got had it happened. One wonders if Dalton would have lost his chance to become Bond and whether Brosnan would have added 3 more films to this run. What happens with LTK? Could Pierce pull that off? Or would a return to Fleming be put on hold for a tone more in line with Brosnan's other Bond films?

    What say you Mi6? What if Pierce Brosnan had starred in AVTAK?

    AVTAK's script was so tired and recycled(essentially a GF rehash that could've easily been titled Microchip-Finger) I would not have wanted either Brosnan or Dalton to make their 007 debut with it, at least not without a major script overhaul prior to shooting. As it stands, it's a little easier to overlook AVTAK's many faults as a finale for Sir Rog past his prime rather than as an exciting debut for a younger, new Bond lead actor. That stated I have in the past imagined a "what if?" standalone version of AVTAK with a 1985 Brosnan and with Priscilla Barnes(Mrs. Leiter from LTK) as Stacy Sutton. Essentially it may have played like Remington Steele with Teri Alden as his leading lady.

    If the script for AVTAK is criticized, I'm sure Richard Maibaum would blame someone else.

    LOL.

    I remember reading a Maibaum interview about AVTAK at some point where he basically said, "Yeah, we overdid it with Zorin" (referring, I think, to the Nazi angle).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,344
    I think the Nazi angle was fine..?
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,606
    If Pierce was in AVTAK, he would have had a nice ending point with Everything or Nothing. Max Zorin’s heir Nikolai. Everything came together.
  • edited October 2023 Posts: 1,324
    GE was the safest movie since TSWLM.

    thedove wrote: »
    As Elliot Carver once said "This just in..."

    https://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/pierce-brosnan-first-approach-for-james-bond-1983?fbclid=IwAR2YXLFpqgYXTjx2Tua6_E3cfOyKNj3z2_CHBp-qsuJ9m_Sodvtysv2fdmQ

    Looks like Cubby was a fan of Pierce before TLD and way before GE. It seems to be coming out that Pierce screen tested for the role in late 1983 to take over as Bond in AVTAK. Wow, one wonders how a new Bond would have improved AVTAK. Can we imagine Pierce and Walken sharing a screen? Or even Pierce and David Bowie (who was rumoured for the Zorin role).

    This would have altered things quite a bit from what we got had it happened. One wonders if Dalton would have lost his chance to become Bond and whether Brosnan would have added 3 more films to this run. What happens with LTK? Could Pierce pull that off? Or would a return to Fleming be put on hold for a tone more in line with Brosnan's other Bond films?

    What say you Mi6? What if Pierce Brosnan had starred in AVTAK?

    AVTAK's script was so tired and recycled(essentially a GF rehash that could've easily been titled Microchip-Finger) I would not have wanted either Brosnan or Dalton to make their 007 debut with it, at least not without a major script overhaul prior to shooting. As it stands, it's a little easier to overlook AVTAK's many faults as a finale for Sir Rog past his prime rather than as an exciting debut for a younger, new Bond lead actor. That stated I have in the past imagined a "what if?" standalone version of AVTAK with a 1985 Brosnan and with Priscilla Barnes(Mrs. Leiter from LTK) as Stacy Sutton. Essentially it may have played like Remington Steele with Teri Alden as his leading lady.

    Well , GE was ThunderEye or GoldenEyes are forever.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    edited October 2023 Posts: 3,262
    GE was the safest movie since TSWLM.

    thedove wrote: »
    As Elliot Carver once said "This just in..."

    https://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/pierce-brosnan-first-approach-for-james-bond-1983?fbclid=IwAR2YXLFpqgYXTjx2Tua6_E3cfOyKNj3z2_CHBp-qsuJ9m_Sodvtysv2fdmQ

    Looks like Cubby was a fan of Pierce before TLD and way before GE. It seems to be coming out that Pierce screen tested for the role in late 1983 to take over as Bond in AVTAK. Wow, one wonders how a new Bond would have improved AVTAK. Can we imagine Pierce and Walken sharing a screen? Or even Pierce and David Bowie (who was rumoured for the Zorin role).

    This would have altered things quite a bit from what we got had it happened. One wonders if Dalton would have lost his chance to become Bond and whether Brosnan would have added 3 more films to this run. What happens with LTK? Could Pierce pull that off? Or would a return to Fleming be put on hold for a tone more in line with Brosnan's other Bond films?

    What say you Mi6? What if Pierce Brosnan had starred in AVTAK?

    AVTAK's script was so tired and recycled(essentially a GF rehash that could've easily been titled Microchip-Finger) I would not have wanted either Brosnan or Dalton to make their 007 debut with it, at least not without a major script overhaul prior to shooting. As it stands, it's a little easier to overlook AVTAK's many faults as a finale for Sir Rog past his prime rather than as an exciting debut for a younger, new Bond lead actor. That stated I have in the past imagined a "what if?" standalone version of AVTAK with a 1985 Brosnan and with Priscilla Barnes(Mrs. Leiter from LTK) as Stacy Sutton. Essentially it may have played like Remington Steele with Teri Alden as his leading lady.

    Well , GE was ThunderEye or GoldenEyes are forever.

    GE a hybrid of TB and DAF? I've noticed that too.

    TB/GE: Criminal organization(SPECTRE/Janus) uses its femme fatale(Volpe, Onatopp) to seduce and murder an allied officer and replace him with a double in order to steal a nuclear weapon to use against a Western city(Miami/London).

    DAF/GE: The villain(Blofeld/006) appears to die in the PTS. Bond's investigation leads him to a meeting with the mysterious mastermind(Willard Whyte/Janus behind the events in the film. The mysterious figure turns out to be the aforementioned "dead" villain. The villain plans to use a satellite's laser to assault a Western capital(Washington, DC/London).

  • Posts: 4,109
    echo wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    As Elliot Carver once said "This just in..."

    https://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/pierce-brosnan-first-approach-for-james-bond-1983?fbclid=IwAR2YXLFpqgYXTjx2Tua6_E3cfOyKNj3z2_CHBp-qsuJ9m_Sodvtysv2fdmQ

    Looks like Cubby was a fan of Pierce before TLD and way before GE. It seems to be coming out that Pierce screen tested for the role in late 1983 to take over as Bond in AVTAK. Wow, one wonders how a new Bond would have improved AVTAK. Can we imagine Pierce and Walken sharing a screen? Or even Pierce and David Bowie (who was rumoured for the Zorin role).

    This would have altered things quite a bit from what we got had it happened. One wonders if Dalton would have lost his chance to become Bond and whether Brosnan would have added 3 more films to this run. What happens with LTK? Could Pierce pull that off? Or would a return to Fleming be put on hold for a tone more in line with Brosnan's other Bond films?

    What say you Mi6? What if Pierce Brosnan had starred in AVTAK?

    AVTAK's script was so tired and recycled(essentially a GF rehash that could've easily been titled Microchip-Finger) I would not have wanted either Brosnan or Dalton to make their 007 debut with it, at least not without a major script overhaul prior to shooting. As it stands, it's a little easier to overlook AVTAK's many faults as a finale for Sir Rog past his prime rather than as an exciting debut for a younger, new Bond lead actor. That stated I have in the past imagined a "what if?" standalone version of AVTAK with a 1985 Brosnan and with Priscilla Barnes(Mrs. Leiter from LTK) as Stacy Sutton. Essentially it may have played like Remington Steele with Teri Alden as his leading lady.

    If the script for AVTAK is criticized, I'm sure Richard Maibaum would blame someone else.

    LOL.

    I remember reading a Maibaum interview about AVTAK at some point where he basically said, "Yeah, we overdid it with Zorin" (referring, I think, to the Nazi angle).

    Ironically that’s probably one of the better ideas in AVTAK.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,344
    Me too, and actually fairly subtly done for a Bond film- I don't know what he means by 'overdid'. It's not like there were swastikas on the walls or anything.
  • Posts: 15,106
    GE was the safest movie since TSWLM.

    thedove wrote: »
    As Elliot Carver once said "This just in..."

    https://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/pierce-brosnan-first-approach-for-james-bond-1983?fbclid=IwAR2YXLFpqgYXTjx2Tua6_E3cfOyKNj3z2_CHBp-qsuJ9m_Sodvtysv2fdmQ

    Looks like Cubby was a fan of Pierce before TLD and way before GE. It seems to be coming out that Pierce screen tested for the role in late 1983 to take over as Bond in AVTAK. Wow, one wonders how a new Bond would have improved AVTAK. Can we imagine Pierce and Walken sharing a screen? Or even Pierce and David Bowie (who was rumoured for the Zorin role).

    This would have altered things quite a bit from what we got had it happened. One wonders if Dalton would have lost his chance to become Bond and whether Brosnan would have added 3 more films to this run. What happens with LTK? Could Pierce pull that off? Or would a return to Fleming be put on hold for a tone more in line with Brosnan's other Bond films?

    What say you Mi6? What if Pierce Brosnan had starred in AVTAK?

    AVTAK's script was so tired and recycled(essentially a GF rehash that could've easily been titled Microchip-Finger) I would not have wanted either Brosnan or Dalton to make their 007 debut with it, at least not without a major script overhaul prior to shooting. As it stands, it's a little easier to overlook AVTAK's many faults as a finale for Sir Rog past his prime rather than as an exciting debut for a younger, new Bond lead actor. That stated I have in the past imagined a "what if?" standalone version of AVTAK with a 1985 Brosnan and with Priscilla Barnes(Mrs. Leiter from LTK) as Stacy Sutton. Essentially it may have played like Remington Steele with Teri Alden as his leading lady.

    Well , GE was ThunderEye or GoldenEyes are forever.

    GE a hybrid of TB and DAF? I've noticed that too.

    TB/GE: Criminal organization(SPECTRE/Janus) uses its femme fatale(Volpe, Onatopp) to seduce and murder an allied officer and replace him with a double in order to steal a nuclear weapon to use against a Western city(Miami/London).

    DAF/GE: The villain(Blofeld/006) appears to die in the PTS. Bond's investigation leads him to a meeting with the mysterious mastermind(Willard Whyte/Janus behind the events in the film. The mysterious figure turns out to be the aforementioned "dead" villain. The villain plans to use a satellite's laser to assault a Western capital(Washington, DC/London).

    GE is DAF done right. But yeah I also saw the parallels with TB, especially the double.

    Regarding the what if question, I have no doubt that the script would have been tailored for a new Bond. What always struck me with AVTAK is how comedic it is: even the action scenes are often frustratingly light hearted. It made sense to have them like that with an ageing Roger Moore, but I'd expect them to be more dynamic and suspenseful with a new and younger Bond actor. I think a youthful Brosnan would have made Zorin more menacing in comparison.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,404
    Time to turn our attention to a deleted scene or should I say scenes from OHMSS.

    Taking place after Bond meets with Bray there was an elaborate action sequence that involved bugging of Bray's office, a rooftop chase of Bond and the SPECTRE agent. The sequence climaxed in the underground of London on the mail tube line.

    No video was saved, however you can see the reconstructed sequence here:




    My question is what if this sequence had stayed in the film? Do you think it would have worked better than the truncated version we got in the film? Or was the right decision made to cut out the entire sequence?

    What if OHMSS had kept the London rooftop chase in the film?
  • edited November 2023 Posts: 4,109
    That's an interesting video. Never knew how the sequence worked in the context of the film.

    Personally, I don't think it would have added anything. It even takes away a sense of the covert nature of Bond's mission and somewhat undermines the build up to meeting Blofeld. It just seems like an unnecessary action beat for the sake of it.

    It would have been cool to have had such a snapshot of late 60s London in a Bond film. I certainly don't think it would have ruined the film but think it would have been considered one of the weaker elements of it. Honestly, I think we're better off with SF's foot chase through the tube for this sort of sequence.
  • Posts: 1,858
    Best that it was deleted. It just was not needed and not missed.
  • Interesting. And yes, it would have been wonderful to see Lazenby's Bond in action in late '60s London - I love the shots of the city gents and the girl in the boots!

    How did they manage to lose the actual film of this sequence? Always thought Eon were pretty meticulous when it came to archiving material...
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,787
    I would've liked to see this, to be honest, I think it would've add something to the plot about how Blofeld was keeping in touch with Sir Hillary Bray to the point of sending a man to spy.

    There's Bond racing against time to chase Phidian before he could report to SPECTRE, and Phidian seemed like an interesting character too, because he's a SPECTRE agent and him having a chase with another agent working on the different side of the spectrum (MI6) would've been interesting to see.

    And it would've improved the film more in terms of action.

    Although, I'm also okay of it not being there if considering the film's already long runtime (2 Hrs), so, I think it would just add up to the film's pacing.
  • Posts: 2,159
    It would have been a cool action sequence to see, but the film is already quite long and full of great action sequences, so removing it was probably for the best.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2023 Posts: 16,344
    Monorailer wrote: »
    How did they manage to lose the actual film of this sequence? Always thought Eon were pretty meticulous when it came to archiving material...

    Have they actually said that they have lost it? There's just lots of deleted stuff they've never released. Did they get around to shooting the train stuff...?

    It would be lots of fun to see, I love a foot chase, but I'm not sure the film needed it. It feels like another side mission like the Gumbold thing, and might have been one too many.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,404
    Sadly in the "old days" they often scrapped or destroyed the deleted scenes. Same in TB where there is a deleted scene of Bond being shown around by Largo on the Disco Volante, only some pictures remain.

    Once the home theatre craze happened studios started to realize the value of the deleted scenes.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,787
    thedove wrote: »
    Sadly in the "old days" they often scrapped or destroyed the deleted scenes. Same in TB where there is a deleted scene of Bond being shown around by Largo on the Disco Volante, only some pictures remain.

    Once the home theatre craze happened studios started to realize the value of the deleted scenes.

    Indeed, actually there are many deleted scenes that I'm not sure if some footages retained:

    https://screenrant.com/james-bond-best-deleted-scenes-better-left-out/

    https://screenrant.com/007-best-unused-ideas-james-bond-movies/#elephant-chase-the-man-with-the-golden-gun

    There's some pictures in there, I'm not sure in the second article.

    I think the first deleted scene that ever survived from the early days was the one in Diamonds Are Forever.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,344
    Have Eon specifically said that they've been scrapped?
  • edited November 2023 Posts: 1,324
    Mallory wrote: »
    It would have been a cool action sequence to see, but the film is already quite long and full of great action sequences, so removing it was probably for the best.

    Well, the first half doesn't have a lot of action sequences. That's why they made the TV cut.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,404
    mtm wrote: »
    Have Eon specifically said that they've been scrapped?

    The TB one of the tour of the Disco Volante, yes. Not sure if there is official word about the OHMSS one, they apparently didn't shoot the tube stuff.
  • Posts: 15,106
    thedove wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Have Eon specifically said that they've been scrapped?

    The TB one of the tour of the Disco Volante, yes. Not sure if there is official word about the OHMSS one, they apparently didn't shoot the tube stuff.

    Might have been too hard to do technically at that time. Not impossible, mind you, but expensive and not worth the trouble. The sequence brings nothing to the film so I'm glad it was taken out.
  • Posts: 1,858
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    I would've liked to see this, to be honest, I think it would've add something to the plot about how Blofeld was keeping in touch with Sir Hillary Bray to the point of sending a man to spy.

    There's Bond racing against time to chase Phidian before he could report to SPECTRE, and Phidian seemed like an interesting character too, because he's a SPECTRE agent and him having a chase with another agent working on the different side of the spectrum (MI6) would've been interesting to see.

    And it would've improved the film more in terms of action.

    Although, I'm also okay of it not being there if considering the film's already long runtime (2 Hrs), so, I think it would just add up to the film's pacing.

    There might have also been a story problem. If Phidian was a Blofeld spy and was killed or incarcerated and then if he did not report into Blofeld then Blofeld could have been become suspicious of Bray. It's a can of worms that did not need to be opened for the audience to question.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,344
    Well the idea that they’d then stage a train accident for him to die in would have taken care of that (as seen on the front of Campbell’s newspaper) although I’m curious how that would be explained in the film? Would that have been an M’s office scene?
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,404
    Lets stay with OHMSS and talk about another one that sometimes gets brought up. Cubby had Timothy Dalton on his radar back in 1969. Tim thought he was too young to take up the mantle, or maybe he was smart enough to know the guy after Connery was going to have an uphill battle. For whatever reason he turned down the chance to screen test.

    But what if he didn't. What if Timothy Dalton screen tested and was offered the role of James Bond in 1969? What impact would it have had on the movie and the series as a whole? Would the need for Connery to return be eliminated? Would Moore not be cast as Bond?

    What if Timothy Dalton had been James Bond in OHMSS in 1969?

    Here is what Timothy looked like in 1970, was he too young?

    1647940050_422785056754947_goldstyles.jpg
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Very handsome, and he didn't appear too young.

    I think that photo was from Wuthering Heights, and in that, I found Tim too "stagey", his emotions on his sleeve and he stomped about like he was on the boards.

    So, although he looked fantastic, I just don't think his talent was yet mature enough to play agent 007 (especially right after the very cool, laid back killer in Sean Connery)
  • edited November 2023 Posts: 4,109
    Good question. Well, I suspect he would have put in a better or at least more consistent performance than Lazenby (even a 23 year old Dalton would have been able to handle much of the material I think).

    Ultimately though, I suspect OHMSS would still have had an underwhelming reception. Neither Lazenby nor Dalton were stars at the time, Dalton was rather young, and Connery had been too big in the role. A change in direction for the next one would have been needed.

    I’m not too sure what would have happened from here. Dalton’s strength as Bond was never humour (which may well be his own personal take on the character as an older actor, as he’s actually a pretty solid comedic actor when he wants to be) so perhaps he wouldn’t have wanted to star in a more lighthearted DAF. That said he was far less arrogant than Lazenby, and seemed a committed actor. He could well have played the role ‘straight’ in such a film, albeit less memorably or tongue in cheek as Moore or Connery. I doubt he would have been swayed by an agent or the idea of the series dying. He may well have done another, and I think we would have gotten a version of DAF (maybe not quite as camp or even memorable as the film we got, but in a similar mould - perhaps closer to TMWTGG or LALD, but certainly nothing as dark as LTK).

    I don’t know if he’d read the novels at that time/would have consciously channeled Fleming as much as he did as an actor in his 40s… perhaps that would have had an impact on the writing if he had.

    Not sure how long he would have played Bond. I think the general course corrections that the series actually went through would have been more or less the same (ie. Going from the more low key/ comedic but cynical DAF, LALD and TMWTGG to the more big budget, family friendly TSWLM). I don’t think this era of Bond would have played to his strengths. Dalton may well have called it quits after two or been pushed out and we’d have gotten Moore anyway… I really don’t know. I think his reputation as Bond would have gone through a similar later appraisal regardless though, with him having his fans.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    It would mean not having TLD, which I absolutely love, mainly due to Timothy's performance, but the only thing lacking in OHMSS is Lazenby's wooden performance for me.
    Timothy would have elevated OHMSS significantly, despite his youthfulness
  • 007HallY wrote: »
    Ultimately though, I suspect OHMSS would still have had an underwhelming reception. Neither Lazenby nor Dalton were stars at the time, Dalton was rather young, and Connery had been too big in the role. A change in direction for the next one would have been needed.
    That's also my opinion. While Dalton would have been a better actor than Lazenby, I don't think the audience would have reacted well to him. The only actor I could imagine fully succeeding in 1969 would have been Moore. Moore was popular, he would have been accepted as the new Bond; I'm not sure a dashing 23 years old Dalton would have been seen as Connery's successor.

    I would even go as far as thinking that it would have been even more likely to see a second Lazenby Bond instalment after OHMSS than a second Dalton one. Taking into account OHMSS filming conditions (56 days of shooting in Switzerland) and Dalton's young age, I doubt he would have wanted to continue. I read he was still uncomfortable with all the marketing part of the Bond films in the 80s, so I can only imagine it would have been worse in '69, especially when their was a need to sell this new face and to really have him be at the heart of the marketing campaign.

    With Dalton playing Bond in '69 and leaving the role after OHMSS, I guess the future of the series would have been more or less the same on the short term: Connery returns for DAF, then Moore stars in LALD. The real change would come in 1986 with the casting of a new actor in the lead role for TLD. Sam Neill, Antony Hamilton, it could have been anyone.
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