NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • FeyadorFeyador Montreal, Canada
    Posts: 735
    If we’re to be that strict, then they might as well stop making Bond films entirely. In fact we should dismiss the entire EON canon while we’re at it.
    Exactly so, bin them all as completely heretical!

    And while we're at it, let's dispense with the latter Fleming, as well ...
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,588
    I heard somewhere that after Casino Royale, Fleming's publishers wanted him to make Bond slightly more likeable, as they felt it would make it easier to sell the books?

    If that's the case, dispense with not just latter Fleming, but all Fleming aside from CR!
  • KenAustinKenAustin United States
    Posts: 226
    If we’re to be that strict, then they might as well stop making Bond films entirely. In fact we should dismiss the entire EON canon while we’re at it.

    Or just edit the actors...hair dye would have gone a long way...Bond has black hair for starters, not that hard to accomplish
  • Posts: 1,394
    Venutius wrote: »
    I doubt anyone questions Craig's ability as an actor

    There was someone on another thread who insisted that Craig was a 'good but not great' actor and that all of his acting as Bond had not only been equalled or bettered by the previous actors but that they'd also played Bond more 'naturalistically' than Craig had! Have to say that picturing any of them playing the train scene from CR better or more 'naturalistically' than Craig gave me a damn good laugh. Several, actually.

    Whenever Craig attempts an American accent in the likes of Lara Croft:Tomb Raider or Knives Out,i can’t stop laughing at him and wonder why no one tells him to stop taking roles like that when he obviously can’t do them,

  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,588
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    I doubt anyone questions Craig's ability as an actor

    There was someone on another thread who insisted that Craig was a 'good but not great' actor and that all of his acting as Bond had not only been equalled or bettered by the previous actors but that they'd also played Bond more 'naturalistically' than Craig had! Have to say that picturing any of them playing the train scene from CR better or more 'naturalistically' than Craig gave me a damn good laugh. Several, actually.

    Whenever Craig attempts an American accent in the likes of Lara Croft:Tomb Raider or Knives Out,i can’t stop laughing at him and wonder why no one tells him to stop taking roles like that when he obviously can’t do them,

    Netflix gave him $100,000,000 for a couple of Knives Out sequels, so I'd say you're in the extreme minority there.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited January 2022 Posts: 3,154
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Whenever Craig attempts an American accent in the likes of Lara Croft:Tomb Raider or Knives Out,i can’t stop laughing at him and wonder why no one tells him to stop taking roles like that when he obviously can’t do them

    Dunno about that, but did you ever hear his attempt at a Scottish accent in The Ice House ? :-O
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,588
    Venutius wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Whenever Craig attempts an American accent in the likes of Lara Croft:Tomb Raider or Knives Out,i can’t stop laughing at him and wonder why no one tells him to stop taking roles like that when he obviously can’t do them

    Dunno about that, but did you ever hear his attempt at a Scottish accent in The Ice House ? :-O

    :)) Definitely want to check that out.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited January 2022 Posts: 3,154
    I love Craig, I think he's a genuinely excellent actor - but with The Ice House, I have to 'fess that I couldn't work out what the hell I was hearing at times! And I've had Scottish girlfriends... :))
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,201
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    I doubt anyone questions Craig's ability as an actor

    There was someone on another thread who insisted that Craig was a 'good but not great' actor and that all of his acting as Bond had not only been equalled or bettered by the previous actors but that they'd also played Bond more 'naturalistically' than Craig had! Have to say that picturing any of them playing the train scene from CR better or more 'naturalistically' than Craig gave me a damn good laugh. Several, actually.

    Whenever Craig attempts an American accent in the likes of Lara Croft:Tomb Raider or Knives Out,i can’t stop laughing at him and wonder why no one tells him to stop taking roles like that when he obviously can’t do them,

    Netflix gave him $100,000,000 for a couple of Knives Out sequels, so I'd say you're in the extreme minority there.

    That and he’s had a lot of nominations for that first film. Besides, it’s SUPPOSED to sound goofy in the film. Characters even call out how he sounds ridiculous.
  • AstonLotus wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    I doubt anyone questions Craig's ability as an actor

    There was someone on another thread who insisted that Craig was a 'good but not great' actor and that all of his acting as Bond had not only been equalled or bettered by the previous actors but that they'd also played Bond more 'naturalistically' than Craig had! Have to say that picturing any of them playing the train scene from CR better or more 'naturalistically' than Craig gave me a damn good laugh. Several, actually.

    Whenever Craig attempts an American accent in the likes of Lara Croft:Tomb Raider or Knives Out,i can’t stop laughing at him and wonder why no one tells him to stop taking roles like that when he obviously can’t do them,

    Netflix gave him $100,000,000 for a couple of Knives Out sequels, so I'd say you're in the extreme minority there.

    That and he’s had a lot of nominations for that first film. Besides, it’s SUPPOSED to sound goofy in the film. Characters even call out how he sounds ridiculous.

    You know your accent is bad when your fellow cast are breaking character to call you out on it.
  • I heard somewhere that after Casino Royale, Fleming's publishers wanted him to make Bond slightly more likeable, as they felt it would make it easier to sell the books?

    If that's the case, dispense with not just latter Fleming, but all Fleming aside from CR!

    It wouldn’t surprise me, he’s really a machine-like bastard in Casino Royale compared with all the other books lol.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited January 2022 Posts: 4,343
    That’s a great read:
    https://www.007.com/what-it-takes-to-write-a-bond-film/

    No Time To Die has a virus that could spread around the world… how did that come about?

    Neal: Well, we’d had the idea some time ago about what was, in the old days, called a gene bomb which could affect or kill people of particular genetic makeup but we were always uncertain to what extent that was really true or likely. Then Michael G. Wilson mentioned to us that he’d read about something that actually was going on in the medical profession. DNA targeting for illnesses and ailments. That was for good purposes, obviously and so we all thought we can do something similar but have a malevolent reason behind it. A malevolent plan like Heracles.

    How important was it for you to make Bond fall in love?

    Robert: I think that at the end of Casino Royale, he realises that he can’t have a normal relationship and he can’t have love. He’s also realised that he knows what he’s protecting now. So that gave us a starting position to then move forward.

    Neal: The journey for Bond in Casino Royale is that he’s an orphan. He’s loyal to Her Majesty in it but basically he doesn’t really understand life. And then he meets this other orphan and they fall in love and he suddenly apprehends what life could be like. If you were an orphan, you’ve never really known a loving environment and then suddenly you could have your own little life. And so he understands what life is about and then it’s taken away because he discovered that she was always deceiving him, even though she may well have actually loved him, but he dons his armor. It’s a line in the film, but that’s when it happens. And he says ‘The bitch is dead now.’ which is the last line of the novel and it was very important to us that it would be in the film. He now understands that this is real life, that people do fall in love. He can never allow himself to do that because it made him vulnerable and he can’t go around the world protecting that. And so finally in Spectre he meets someone and he starts to think maybe I can walk away from this for love. So that’s the journey.

    Robert: At the end of the Casino Royale book, he’s determined to find and hunt down the arm that holds the whip and gun.

    Neal: That’s his quest, isn’t it?

    Robert: Yeah. That’s the arc that we’re trying to get is that he can’t stop doing that even if he’s got a relationship and even if he’s retired.


    So how did No Time To Die’s ending come about?

    Neal: Barbara had mentioned it to us when Daniel first came on during Casino Royale. We’d actually completely forgotten that. When it came up again, it’s such a bold idea. You can’t just throw yourself into it. There were lots of different ways you could play it but we actually came down on the side of this missile ending from a naval vessel quite early on. That kind of environment felt right and then knowing that something’s coming is a really good way of keeping the tension and really makes you think that it’s not really going to happen.
  • Posts: 1,394
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    I doubt anyone questions Craig's ability as an actor

    There was someone on another thread who insisted that Craig was a 'good but not great' actor and that all of his acting as Bond had not only been equalled or bettered by the previous actors but that they'd also played Bond more 'naturalistically' than Craig had! Have to say that picturing any of them playing the train scene from CR better or more 'naturalistically' than Craig gave me a damn good laugh. Several, actually.

    Whenever Craig attempts an American accent in the likes of Lara Croft:Tomb Raider or Knives Out,i can’t stop laughing at him and wonder why no one tells him to stop taking roles like that when he obviously can’t do them,

    Netflix gave him $100,000,000 for a couple of Knives Out sequels, so I'd say you're in the extreme minority there.

    They also gave lots of zeros to the likes of Adam Sandler.Popularity does not equal talent.

  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 575
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    I doubt anyone questions Craig's ability as an actor

    There was someone on another thread who insisted that Craig was a 'good but not great' actor and that all of his acting as Bond had not only been equalled or bettered by the previous actors but that they'd also played Bond more 'naturalistically' than Craig had! Have to say that picturing any of them playing the train scene from CR better or more 'naturalistically' than Craig gave me a damn good laugh. Several, actually.

    Whenever Craig attempts an American accent in the likes of Lara Croft:Tomb Raider or Knives Out,i can’t stop laughing at him and wonder why no one tells him to stop taking roles like that when he obviously can’t do them,

    Netflix gave him $100,000,000 for a couple of Knives Out sequels, so I'd say you're in the extreme minority there.

    They also gave lots of zeros to the likes of Adam Sandler.Popularity does not equal talent.

    Yikes!!
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,230
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    I doubt anyone questions Craig's ability as an actor

    There was someone on another thread who insisted that Craig was a 'good but not great' actor and that all of his acting as Bond had not only been equalled or bettered by the previous actors but that they'd also played Bond more 'naturalistically' than Craig had! Have to say that picturing any of them playing the train scene from CR better or more 'naturalistically' than Craig gave me a damn good laugh. Several, actually.

    Whenever Craig attempts an American accent in the likes of Lara Croft:Tomb Raider or Knives Out,i can’t stop laughing at him and wonder why no one tells him to stop taking roles like that when he obviously can’t do them,

    Netflix gave him $100,000,000 for a couple of Knives Out sequels, so I'd say you're in the extreme minority there.

    They also gave lots of zeros to the likes of Adam Sandler.Popularity does not equal talent.

    Unless Craig does an American accent in NTTD, I'm not sure what the relevancy is.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,999
    Mona Lisa + Cosmetic DLC for $2.99

    It’s a microtransaction, walk away.
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    Venutius wrote: »
    I love Craig, I think he's a genuinely excellent actor - but with The Ice House, I have to 'fess that I couldn't work out what the hell I was hearing at times! And I've had Scottish girlfriends... :))

    And being a Yorkshireman?
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    Don't agree with this. Some of Moore's films still reference Fleming characters and scenes (DAF and LALD has quite a few).

    You've made a mistake there. DAF was Lazenby, everyone knows that.

    DAF was 70's...

    No. DAF was 45,7's.
  • Posts: 2,402
    I had an idea for an alternative ending. I still absolutely love the ending of NTTD and my overall opinion that this is the greatest Bond film hasn't changed whatsoever, but this was just something I was tinkering with in my mind.

    ALT. ENDING

    Every frame of the movie up until Safin shoots Bond is exactly the same. He gets him in the leg, he shoots him a second time while he's down, and a third time when Bond lunges at him. They grapple, Safin moves to smash the Heracles vial on him, but Bond blocks it, the vial goes flying, it smashes harmlessly on the ground in the garden somewhere. Bond breaks Safin's gun arm as he does in the film.

    Safin is dazed, in shock at having lost his backup plan. Gives some spiel about how Bond will never make it off the island in time. Bond hobbles up, grabs the gun. "I still have time." Shoots Safin, pretty dispassionately, but not with the complete lack of interest from the film. Bond limps away, gets on the radio with Q as he approaches the blast door switch. Pulls it while having the same initial conversation, "the missiles have launched, just get out of there."

    Bond heads back towards the sub pen so he can take the stealthy bird out. He loses comms with Q as he heads back down into the structure, but gets them back as he nears the sub pen (just as he had earlier in the film). Asks to talk to Madeleine. Tells her that he IS going to make it. But starts telling her all of the things he tells her in the film, "you have made the most beautiful thing I have ever seen," etc., because he's not sure if he WILL make it. Madeleine tells him she loves him, he's at the sub pen, trying to get the door of the stealthy bird open, he's about to tell her he loves her too...and then the missiles hit. Bond is blown into the water. Explosions going off all around him, rubble falling, he's knocked out and we smash to black.

    We fade back up and we're underwater. Bond is barely stirring, having trouble focusing, there's just deep dark water all around him. He's slowly sinking deeper and deeper, which is a visual motif akin to Skyfall when he is shot and again when he falls into the lake with Silva's goon in the climax. He's tired, wounded, he considers just letting himself literally drift away...but a figure comes from below. A dark haired woman in a red dress.

    Eva Green is there, as Vesper, looking up at him. She rises up to his level, they stare eye to eye, no dialogue whatsoever. She closes her eyes, kisses his hands, and opens them again, just like in Casino Royale. And then the image of her dissipates in the water. This is Bond FULLY letting go of her, letting go of everything. He looks up to the surface. He sees the faint image of a dinghy above him, and he gains a newfound resolve to live as he swims up.

    When Bond barely makes it to the surface, he gasps out, but is too weak to pull himself up, which is when a pair of hands get him under the shoulders and pull him up: Nomi. Bond fades in and out, we see images of the sky/boat/water moving around him, and when things finally come into proper focus again, Bond is looking right at Madeleine: Nomi has gotten him to that island where they were. Mathilde is behind her, scared, barely peeking one eye out at the wounded Bond. Bond calls his daughter over. "It's alright." Mathilde curls up against him. Nomi is working on Bond's wounds with some kind of medkit or something. Madeleine is on the verge of sobbing out of concern for Bond.

    "She does have your eyes." "I know...

    ...I know."

    Bond loses consciousness. Cue up the same establishing shot of London. MI6 crew gathered. Similar speech, but without the Jack London quote as it wouldn't make sense here. Same toast: "To James," but with an addendum: "...wherever he is."

    Cut to Matera. James is driving the V8 with Madeleine in the passenger seat. Mathilde is in the back. They arrive at a hotel or restaurant or something that they have a reservation for. Some type of host walks up to the car. "Name?"

    Bond looks at his family, smiles slightly, and turns back to the host.

    "Bond.

    James Bond."

    SMASH TO BLACK

    Again, I positively adore the ending of NTTD. This was just something I thought of today. I'm really not even sure if it's actually any good or not. I was considering having him still die with his family beside him, but then I don't think the whole bit with the Vesper apparition makes much sense, this whole thing of him moving forward with his life beyond her and beyond his time as an agent, if he just dies right afterwards anyway.
  • Posts: 2,161
    I’m not crazy about the whole Vesper thing, but I’ll still take it.
  • Posts: 1,085
    Certainly preferable to what they dished up.

    In my ideal world, he'd have escaped the exploding island on Roger's jet-ski, and the only kid in a James Bond movie would have been Raj the elephant seller.
  • Posts: 2,161
    I want him teleported to Drax's space station. I would have accepted that. And in my world Bond has dozens of offspring scattered about the globe that he'd rather not hear from.
  • Posts: 2,402
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I’m not crazy about the whole Vesper thing, but I’ll still take it.

    It'd certainly have been something ENTIRELY different for the series, and with everything else going on, it'd maybe have been one element too many for that ending anyway. But if there was ever a time to do such a "vision," that'd probably have been the only one.
  • edited January 2022 Posts: 1,085
    Birdleson wrote: »
    And in my world Bond has dozens of offspring scattered about the globe that he'd rather not hear from.

    I've seen a few times on here people saying 'but he had a kid in the books'. But he actually didn't, Kissy was pregnant but it was never revealed if it was born, or if it was, whether it was a boy or a girl.
    And Bond didn't even know of its existence. That apple was never peeled.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,077
    I had an idea for an alternative ending. I still absolutely love the ending of NTTD and my overall opinion that this is the greatest Bond film hasn't changed whatsoever, but this was just something I was tinkering with in my mind.

    ALT. ENDING

    Every frame of the movie up until Safin shoots Bond is exactly the same. He gets him in the leg, he shoots him a second time while he's down, and a third time when Bond lunges at him. They grapple, Safin moves to smash the Heracles vial on him, but Bond blocks it, the vial goes flying, it smashes harmlessly on the ground in the garden somewhere. Bond breaks Safin's gun arm as he does in the film.

    Safin is dazed, in shock at having lost his backup plan. Gives some spiel about how Bond will never make it off the island in time. Bond hobbles up, grabs the gun. "I still have time." Shoots Safin, pretty dispassionately, but not with the complete lack of interest from the film. Bond limps away, gets on the radio with Q as he approaches the blast door switch. Pulls it while having the same initial conversation, "the missiles have launched, just get out of there."

    Bond heads back towards the sub pen so he can take the stealthy bird out. He loses comms with Q as he heads back down into the structure, but gets them back as he nears the sub pen (just as he had earlier in the film). Asks to talk to Madeleine. Tells her that he IS going to make it. But starts telling her all of the things he tells her in the film, "you have made the most beautiful thing I have ever seen," etc., because he's not sure if he WILL make it. Madeleine tells him she loves him, he's at the sub pen, trying to get the door of the stealthy bird open, he's about to tell her he loves her too...and then the missiles hit. Bond is blown into the water. Explosions going off all around him, rubble falling, he's knocked out and we smash to black.

    We fade back up and we're underwater. Bond is barely stirring, having trouble focusing, there's just deep dark water all around him. He's slowly sinking deeper and deeper, which is a visual motif akin to Skyfall when he is shot and again when he falls into the lake with Silva's goon in the climax. He's tired, wounded, he considers just letting himself literally drift away...but a figure comes from below. A dark haired woman in a red dress.

    Eva Green is there, as Vesper, looking up at him. She rises up to his level, they stare eye to eye, no dialogue whatsoever. She closes her eyes, kisses his hands, and opens them again, just like in Casino Royale. And then the image of her dissipates in the water. This is Bond FULLY letting go of her, letting go of everything. He looks up to the surface. He sees the faint image of a dinghy above him, and he gains a newfound resolve to live as he swims up.

    When Bond barely makes it to the surface, he gasps out, but is too weak to pull himself up, which is when a pair of hands get him under the shoulders and pull him up: Nomi. Bond fades in and out, we see images of the sky/boat/water moving around him, and when things finally come into proper focus again, Bond is looking right at Madeleine: Nomi has gotten him to that island where they were. Mathilde is behind her, scared, barely peeking one eye out at the wounded Bond. Bond calls his daughter over. "It's alright." Mathilde curls up against him. Nomi is working on Bond's wounds with some kind of medkit or something. Madeleine is on the verge of sobbing out of concern for Bond.

    "She does have your eyes." "I know...

    ...I know."

    Bond loses consciousness. Cue up the same establishing shot of London. MI6 crew gathered. Similar speech, but without the Jack London quote as it wouldn't make sense here. Same toast: "To James," but with an addendum: "...wherever he is."

    Cut to Matera. James is driving the V8 with Madeleine in the passenger seat. Mathilde is in the back. They arrive at a hotel or restaurant or something that they have a reservation for. Some type of host walks up to the car. "Name?"

    Bond looks at his family, smiles slightly, and turns back to the host.

    "Bond.

    James Bond."

    SMASH TO BLACK

    Again, I positively adore the ending of NTTD. This was just something I thought of today. I'm really not even sure if it's actually any good or not. I was considering having him still die with his family beside him, but then I don't think the whole bit with the Vesper apparition makes much sense, this whole thing of him moving forward with his life beyond her and beyond his time as an agent, if he just dies right afterwards anyway.

    That's better than the ending they dished up. I just would have preferred an ambiguous ending overall.

    I'm surprised you think it's the 'greatest Bond film' though.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,201
    .
    Birdleson wrote: »
    And in my world Bond has dozens of offspring scattered about the globe that he'd rather not hear from.

    I've seen a few times on here people saying 'but he had a kid in the books'. But he actually didn't, Kissy was pregnant but it was never revealed if it was born, or if it was, whether it was a boy or a girl.
    And Bond didn't even know of its existence. That apple was never peeled.

    Yet the seed was planted.

    Just because Fleming never got around to exploring that idea before he dropped dead doesn’t mean the filmmakers should have been forbidden from playing with that idea.
  • Posts: 1,085
    Just because Fleming never got around to exploring that idea before he dropped dead doesn’t mean the filmmakers should have been forbidden from playing with that idea.

    I never said it did. I'm just pointing out that the people who have said he was a father in the books, are stretching it. The same as the people that say he was killed off in the books, when he wasn't.
    No they, can do what they want in the films, and we can come here and give our opinions on whatever they do with the character. And the way things are going, I think the next movie will have him in a cape with his very own Batcave and X-ray eyes.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,201
    Just because Fleming never got around to exploring that idea before he dropped dead doesn’t mean the filmmakers should have been forbidden from playing with that idea.

    And the way things are going, I think the next movie will have him in a cape with his very own Batcave and X-ray eyes.

    We can only hope!
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,154
    And being a Yorkshireman?
    Being a Yorkshireman, I know that Craig flunked a Yorkshire accent in Sylvia, but at least you could sort of tell what he was going for - which wasn't always the case in The Ice House ;) .
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