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Comments
They could have done the Layer Cake ending with everything settled and Craig with the girl on his arm walking into retirement and suddenly Ben Whishaw walks up and puts a bullet in his chest - fade to white.
I don't think people would have liked that more - even if it isn't Whishaw, but Hinx or Kabira from QoS or whomever (man, the Craig era had a henchmen problem).
Lol. Yes, I get what you mean. To be fair to Fukunaga he tries so hard and somewhat succeeds at amping up the romance during the early scenes in Italy. It's more pronounced in SP just how mismatched they are.
Why do you think this is? Seydoux is a good actress, although this isn't her best role. Would a different actress have helped?
Oh, very much so....very much so. Another actress would have helped. But not easy to pick a name even if she's good, until she shares a scene/scenes with Bond though.
It's a very strange one. Sometimes actors are just mismatched and don't have that spark with each other I guess. To be fair it doesn't help that Madeline is a bit of a cold character in SP and there's not much time to develop their relationship. Add to that they've kind of shoehorned her as one of Bond's great loves...
Yeah. That's how it felt. Really strange. Another thing is, I love Zimmer's score, but maybe it would have helped if he re-used Newman's Madeleine's theme from SP, instead of re-using WHATTITW from OHMSS. I feel re-using Newman's Madeleine's theme might have made her more original and would have strengthened her character to a reasonable extent, I can't say for sure, but it would have helped, because Newman's Madeleine's theme is one of the best tracks ever written for a Bond girl.
I like that bit of music a lot too. I also have a lot of problems with the fact that they even referenced WHATTITW so that's a pretty solid idea to me.
True, this is my main complaint, and I don't know, Madeleine the character the way she's written, she's cold and aloof that I didn't believe that they love each other, Craig showed it, I really sense and buy that he loves her, I really feel that in him, but Madeleine? I don't see it in her, and yes that painful lack of chemistry between the two, that's probably the most evident, and it didn't help that Lea Seydoux looks young enough to be Craig's daughter.
I really wish Monica Bellucci/Lucia Sciarra had been the Main Bond Girl instead, she has chemistry with Craig, that spark, I really buy that Bond would fall in love with her, giving up the service to be with her.
I could definitely buy Monica Bellucci being a mother of Bond's child, especially for her age, and she's age appropriate for Craig too.
If that happens, she could have topped every bond girl or maybe even Tracy in my list.
I really liked Monica, she's born to be a bond girl, she has the potential to be the next Tracy, but they've dropped the ball in Spectre.
It's a shame as I think a solution could have been simple script rewrites. Again, Madeline's a bit cold and we get so little time to develop her and Bond's relationship that this sense of her character never really changes throughout the film. Then again I maintain SP needed another few rewrites anyway it's such a messy film.
But I agree with the sentiment that NTTD fixes Spectre's problems, I buy their relationship more and I think Lèa Seydoux is excellent at giving a very subtle performance that the writers and filmmakers are better able to utilise in NTTD.
Not really... Usually the same ppl saying the same thing.
Wholly agree @CharmianBond ....
It’s been divisive since it’s release.More so because of the ending.There has been praise for the film here but it’s been far from universal.
I seem to remember back in November, there were only a few people on here disappointed with the film, and most people on here were very complimentary. Now it seems it's not so unusual to read people are less impressed. Perhaps there's a 'honeymoon period' for any new Bond film? And once the excitement dies down, and people watch it a few times at home, it gets a second appraisal.
I think the actress is great but she’s let down by the writing and the lack of chemistry between her and Craig.
I agree with this entirely
Lea is a wonderful actress and any of my Madeline Swann criticism, is no dig at her at all. Madeline falls into that trap of "we want to make a strong female character" so in moments she's helping Bond and is capable, the next she is a damsel in distress. It's not consistent in the writing
The thing that made Vesper so alluring and believable was she was an accountant. When Bond reaches for his gun in the lift, Vesper's slight change in demeanour is stark to us the audience, because we remember she's not from this world, she's an accountant. Her vulnerability ups the stakes and sets the tone. Madeleine is denied any moment of vulnerability
In every interview I've seen Lea in, she comes across as warm, bubbly and charming but in SP and NTTD her character is written so icy and cold that it needed a moment of her to let her guard down with Bond so they connect, and it's never afforded to her.
It doesn't help that in NTTD, when they're trying to sell you on the romance they call back to Vesper and after that Bond leaves Madeline again (like he did in the third act of SP), If Madeline means so little to Bond, why should she mean so much to us
Bond and Madeline needed something similar to the shower scene in Casino
I don't buy that a character written as cold can't have chemistry with Bond. Look at Tracy.
But OHMSS gave Tracy a vulnerable moment, at the bullfight.
Seydoux is not awarded an equivalent moment in SP. She is great in the drunken L'Americain scene, but maybe she could have had a longer scene in the hidden room, where you can see her sadness at her father having abandoned her, taking her to these locales just to conduct interrogations and hide secrets. She's written in SP as a tough woman, a survivor who can load and unload a gun, and that's great as far as it goes, but it doesn't go far enough to establish the romance in SP.
There’s certainly that. The film surely isn’t perfect and I myself would say I have a more sober but still generally positive view of it. I probably wouldn’t go to bat for it the way I did right after it came out. There’s less emotion in it now. And we’re maybe all a bit cynical, so a thread like „what would you change about NTTD“ or „what went wrong“ is just generally more interesting and leads to more engagement than „what was your favourite thing“ or „does anyone else agree that Paloma was perfect?“
Plus, I think when the film came out a lot of non-regulars or old regulars came in, said they liked the film and left again. Among the current regulars and high contributors the opinions seem to a bit more mixed.
Yeah, a Bond girl being cold is fine, it's just that I find the way their relationship developed never really resulted in this part of her character convincingly changing, at least in SP.
I agree with what you're saying. SP is a film in general which feels like it wants these grand moments/ideas, but doesn't put in the effort. The film wants us to believe that this character is going to be one of Bond's great loves and yet it never quite works. On a more random note, I also have the same problem when Bond randomly charges at Blofeld when he shows Madeline the video of White's suicide. Why would he do this? It's so... strange. Not like he was hiding the fact that her father killed himself, and he certainly didn't kill him (would have been more interesting if Bond had done/was lying to Madeline about it).
Yes, you've hit the nail on the head. That's what's I find so frustrating about Spectre it assumes your approval but doesn't put in the effort to earn it.
As for NTTD, there's definitely a honeymoon phase that I guess has ended for a lot of people. Personally I've only gotten more enthusiastic about as time's gone on. I think recency bias also plays a part though, plus I'm not even gonna deny I have a huge Daniel Craig bias but if I wasn't for this film I wouldn't currently be as obsessed with Bond as I am right now, so I just think it's neat.
Craig's age was really showing in NTTD, greying hair and all, he looks like her father.
If they're going to do that one true love scene, especially the one where the bond girl bears a child on him, I think they should hire an actress that is age appropriate, or at least looks more matured enough, it would have been more believable.
Yes he is a male fantasy wish fulfilment figure, but he's no longer a playboy here, he's matured and serious here, wanting to be a family man. For me, the male fantasy wish fulfilment was him banging different sexy and young bond girls, affording luxuries etc, just like the classic Bond.
I'm fine with him being paired to young bond girls as long as it is an ordinary fling one night stand kind of thing, but the love of his life thing and acting as if they're married with a child? Was something a bit uncomfortable to me, or maybe it's just me?
I'm not sure the excitement really has quieted down. Those who praise the film have probably, for the most part, already said so a few times, stated their reasons and moved on. Those who struggle with the film, meanwhile, are more likely to continue to seek confirmation from like-minded individuals, in particular because Bond fans not completely happy with the latest Bond product may, unnecessarily, fear ostracization.
I will, however, agree with the 'second appraisal phenomenon'. I think it's only natural that initial emotions and validations at the peak of the latest hype can be strong and unnuanced. Sometime later, and with one or two more viewings under one's belt, previously overlooked details can suddenly draw our attention, impressions can be more organized and final conclusions can be more thoroughly reached. But, in all fairness, this usually seems to help a film grow more popular (DAD, QOS, SP), rather than the other way around. I have so far seen very few Bond films lose a segment of their fanbase, even if said fanbase may at some point be willing to admit that the "best Bond ever" is just as imperfect as all the others. I have, however, seen a few heavily stigmatized Bond films slowly recover and expand their fanbases, DAD being the most obvious example.
Exactly this. 100%. Couldn't have put it better.
Yeah this always happens on here with a new Bond film, even SF had a notable “backlash” like this. Once it’s been out for a while, most people have moved on by this point whether they liked it or not. The people left who are still talking about it quite regularly tend to be the ones who really didn’t like it. Which gives off the impression that opinion has soured, and it will have done to an extent (always a honeymoon phase with things like this), but I think forums like this can give a skewed impression sometimes. I guess I can only speak for myself, but I still really like the film. I’ve just said most of what I’ve got to say about it already.
Exactly. It is my impression that few lovers ever turn into haters. But after a phase of love-at-first-sight, one usually does grow more critical of a film, seeing the flaws, taking in others' opinions. The "best film ever" is then pushed a bit lower in the rankings, and OHMSS comfortably reclaims its eternal number one spot. ;-) CR is the only Bond film so far that hasn't dropped a single spot in my rankings since 2006.