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Where was it in doubt?
Why not redo and come up with a new iteration of Goldfinger/Oddjob? They died in in 60s era Bond but let's create a new universe where they are alive and ready for another battle with Bond? Or any villain for that matter?
My assumption of why Bond's death doesn't sit well with many.
Yes, while I'm on there, it's different, it's the first time that Bond finds an eternity of happiness by having him got married and escaped from the life of being a secret agent, and settle down, but it's taken away from him by someone who's related to his job, that's tragic. The man spent his life chasing and killing bad guys, it's tiring for him, he's already jaded by this time.
And yes, while Vesper's death was upsetting, his reasoning for giving up his career over her was a bit rushed, because we knew that he's just a beginner in the service, he's just starting in this job, fresh and new, then all of a sudden he would given up his new job for this woman? And yes, that reason also gave me that "yeah, it would not end well" and it happened, because for me, she would be the driving force for Bond to be the Ruthless Secret Agent that we knew.
And yes, NTTD's ending was also depressing, but it's not upsetting, since from the start, I already know that he would gonna die, and the execution of that idea, at least to me was a bit poor.
It all started with him thinking Madeleine betrayed him, but the story was still telling us that Bond already found his eternal happiness in her?
Then after that betrayal nonsense, the film then expect us to believe that Bond would given up his life after that?
But yes, the idea of Bond's death was really sad and tragic, but the execution was poor.
See the post I quoted.
Blofeld and Felix both started walking again, I wouldn't have an issue if that happened. Much like how Batman keeps meeting different Jokers, I don't see the issue.
Exactly why it's almost impossible for the producers to make a please-all Bond film and why sentiments such as "I don't like this film; Babs should be fired" are absolutely ludicrous.
In comparison to the sheer bleakness of NTTD however, the ending of OHMSS feels like Rocky II, III and IV rolled into one.
Add Top Gun Maverick too if you please.
Fans on these boards were complaining that you can't do something so different from the rest of the series when Casino Royale came out: turns out you can, and with a few years' distance it just looks like part of the series.
Let's see how well NTTD stands the test of time in a few years from now. CR was an outright classic even on first release, and nothing has really changed since then. It's still a typical fans firm favourite.
Whereas my bold prediction for NTTD in a few years from now, it will have the unfortunate position of being bottom of the barrel, propping up the list along with the usual suspects like DAD, DAF, MR and AVTAK.
One never knows though. I'd argue all those other movies have their strong points too, and I rewatch them if the mood takes me.
I'm also having that kind of prediction, especially if the next Bond film would turn out to be good or excellent, NTTD will be thrown in the darkest shadow and would be overshadowed by that new film (if again turn out to be good).
MR has been getting it's appreciation these days, many people were appreciating it for what it was, same for QoS.
Maybe TMWTGG? I never heard any appreciation for that film, even outside this forum, it's still considered as one of the weaker ones or worst.
Three of the films you've mentioned were the last Bond films of each actor.
I'm afraid that the curse hasn't break yet (that the final film of each actor who will play the character for long was bad)
DAF for Connery, AVTAK for Moore and DAD for Brosnan, and now NTTD for Craig.
Here's hoping that Bond #7 would break it.
They absolutely could, but I think they’ll have the sense not to, especially following the botched Blofeld/SPECTRE reintroduction.
There was a fairly significant backlash against the Craig era in those early days (mostly confined to fansites, but that’s the same with the NTTD backlash). I know because I struggled to adjust to it myself. Quantum in particular was insanely divisive, but there’s an ever growing section of fans who love it now.
I think @mtm is right. Some people were probably saying “you can’t do that!” the first time we had a rock theme song (and from an artist who Bond himself had slagged off). And they said it when they cast a blonde guy. And when the sex was dialled down because of the AIDS crisis. And when Brosnan was using machine guns all the time. Bet I can find a few reviews of OHMSS criticising it for ruining the fantasy of the series too, if I looked hard enough. Eventually times change, the shock wears off, kids who’ve grown up with those films turn into fans on fansites, and what seemed like a shocking affront to the legacy of the series becomes part of that legacy.
NTTD is also a very well made film. It doesn’t have the piss poor CGI or cringey dialogue of DAD, and it doesn’t come across as lazy and half arsed in the way TMWTGG, AVTAK and the latter half of DAF do. So, I don’t think it deserves to be lumped in with them personally. It might not be what you wanted from a Bond film, but it’s still a good film.
The memory cheats. Especially of before it was released: there was endless complaining about things which seem perfectly part of the Bond world now.
You've missed my point: I'm not claiming it will be seen as a classic- just that the currently-controversial elements will be seen as no more wild than LALD ending on a supernatural baddie.
Also, after LALD, they made a bunch of films that didn't end with a supernatural baddie. And now they're going to make a bunch of films where James Bond doesn't die. It'll just be a thing that happened once, and either you like that aspect or you don't.
A Bond movie ending on a visual gag isn't comparable to a Bond movie that was constructed entirely just to kill off the current iteration of the character.
Still not in the same league as killing off Bond himself.
I don’t see the big deal. Unless Bond was a childhood hero.
Agree of course.
I'd also observe the song "We Have All the Time in the World" is a beautiful, beautiful love song. It's not some dirge of angst and doom. Every time I hear it I'm drawn in, and it's not for despair. Thrilling every time it's used in NTTD and each use for a positive effect.
Likewise the ending is set up as triumph over defeat, and tribute to a national hero. That's beyond not liking the choices made for the story and how it's presented.
But people see what they see.
Of course it is: or rather I could pick any slight change from any of the older movies which would have been regarded as heresy had there been lots of vocal dyed-in-the-wool fans at the time, but is nowadays looked back on as just another Bond film. Just LALD alone features: a smaller aspect ratio; no Bond in the opening credits; no MI6 HQ; no Q; no martini; no dinner suit; no cigarettes; no casino; no swanky sportscar; the aforementioned supernatural baddie who can come back to life; voodoo; some smarmy guy with fair hair(!) playing Bond; no John Barry for the first time since he started scoring them etc. etc. Imagine how all that would have gone down had you been posting on 007 forums after the first seven films- so much you liked gone. But nowadays it's just another Bond film, slotting seamlessly between the others. I still remember being shocked, waiting for TWINE, at the idea that Bond would get injured; wow, Bond actually gets hurt in this one! But that's not even a novelty now.
NTTD will be remembered as the one in which Bond dies, much like LALD is the one with Baron Samedi. That won't be a statement of quality, just of fact; and people are as unlikely to be annoyed by one as they are the other.
It absolutely is: they're main characters in some films. If you get hung up on him being an icon then you can never do anything with him.
I'm not a stickler for tradition or an opponent of novelty. LTK and QOS are two of my favorites in the series. I was a big supporter of Craig when he was announced and I didn't miss Q or Moneypenny in his first two films. If anything I wish the Craig era had continued in the direction they set and not reintroduced Q, Moneypenny, or Blofeld.
I don't really care about the trappings of Bond- the casinos, Aston Martins, catchphrases, martinis- etc. but I do care about respecting the character himself. Pretty much all Bond movies do this except for Craig's last several films, which IMO were made to undermine him and turn him into a tragic figure. And killing him is a big no-no. I don't think that "no killing off the hero" is such an unfair rule to have, especially in an ongoing franchise.
Absolutely. My first film at 4 years old was GF. I read the books when I was around 11 or 12.
The franchise made me believe that Bond will always be around, to survive another day. Killing him off didn't feel like they were using artistic licence, because they can reboot, or that the Craig era really deserved it - the death was rightly earned. I didn't feel that either.
It just felt, cheap, gimmicky, and cashing in on the latest Hollywood/Netflix trend right now of killing off its heroes.
Tom Cruise instinctively knew what audiences wanted and expected from Top Gun, and he delivered it in spades. What audiences expect and want from Bond, I don't believe the producers delivered this with spades (despite the diehard NTTD fans like yourself, who seemed to rejoice in seeing Bond get killed).
OHMSS followed the book Fleming wrote, so they had to go with that ending, to do the book justice. Bond's death in NTTD had nothing to do with what Fleming wrote, it instead was about feeding the ego of one actor to lure him back one last time, and at the same time cash in on the latest Hollywood trend of making heroes tragic figures you feel sorry for, and then kill them off at the end.
Not something I buy into. I still want my heroes to be characters you look up to, and see them survive to fight another day.
Judging by the global audience reaction of Top Gun in comparison to NTTD, I guess I'm not alone.
The only solution was to have this film a full rewrite, from the story, plot, to the characters motivation and etc.
This film was really messed up from the start, especially continuing it after SPECTRE wasn't a good idea after all for me.
As for now, it's already happened, it's already there, there's nothing that my ranting could do.
Just hoping that the next film would turned out to be better.
It's just sad really, looking at the overall reception for the film was not that good, there's some good reactions, but the majority of comments were bad really, if not for the killing of Bond, people just calling the film out for being woke, or that black 007 thing, the villain, the plot, the romance and etc. Got those reaction from my daily visit to IMDb, Rotten Tomatoes, Amazon, Metacritic or even those comments in YouTube.
There's so many complaints about this film, that I'm afraid that this film would be one of the so called 'Final Bond film curse' where every actor's last Bond film was their worst.
There is only one way to rectify NTTD. Bond doesn't retire, doesn't have a daughter, Felix doesn't die, Bond doesn't have Madeline in his life, Safin and the whole dreadful backstory in Norway doesn't exist, a female 007 doesn't exist, the silly nanobots don't exist.
Instead, Bond is sent out on an old fashioned, straight forward mission in Japan, and eventually ends up at Blofeld's castle of death, poisonous garden an' all, and finally kills Blofeld. You can decide whether to tack on the Sparrows Tears final chapter to give the film a gloomy tragic ending or not, but Bond doesn't die. He escapes with amnesia, all set for the next actor with the opening to TMWTGG (and maybe adapt Horowitz latest novel too as part of it).
Or you could end it on a happy, traditional note, with Bond copping off with some local girl on a boat. No big dramas. Just a straight forward Bond flick, not too over complicated. Plenty of action, and a feelgood factor at the end. Nice way to bring down the curtain on Craig's tenure.
Either way I'd be happy.