NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

patb

Some detailed analysis here. The bottom line is "did Safin work as a great Bond villain?" -IMHO, no and the movie was alwasy going to struggle on that basis.

ByRoyalDecree

No it would have been great revenge porn if we saw blofeld and mr white poison Safin’s family. And there would have been interesting moral ambiguity.

If we cannot see the villain suffer, he/she has to be extra charismatic to warrant any type of emotional appeal.

SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷

I think the way Safin was hyped led to fans expecting more. I think Barbara even called Safin "A nasty piece of work", so fans thought Safin would be a much more effective villain than Silva. I envisioned Safin as a shadowy villain that would be a threat difficult for Bond to track down and I also thought Safin would use his mask to stalk people more. Unfortunately, Safin was clearly an effective villain in the trailers alone.

Creasy47

I think there's been a bit of over-hyping with some characters in recent installments. I recall Estrella getting a heavier focus in the marketing for SP and she disappears after the first few minutes, with absolutely no development.

For the most part, I didn't mind Safin, I just wish he got some juicier material to work with. He's quite sinister when showing off the garden near the end but he doesn't have the same impact as, say, Dr. No, who finally, properly appears in the final 20 minutes and is totally classic with every shot and line.

SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷

Maybe we shouldn't fall for the hype in Bond 26? Albeit the introductory film of a new Bond is always stellar.

j_w_pepper

The intriguing part for me is that Safin is not just a Bond villain, but he's also in the middle between Bond and SPECTRE (and/or Quantum if anyone remembers this crutch to keep SPECTRE alive). Bond is not out to get him because he is a threat to the UK (his only attack on that insignificant little island, or how did Blofeld or whoever put it? - is stealing the nano-bot compound) and the West, but because he is a threat to Madeleine and ultimately Bond's family. One can like that setup or not. I do. And I think the finished product is nothing less than spectacularly good, even after four or five viewings.

LeonardPine

007HallY wrote: »

MI6HQ wrote: »

NickTwentyTwo wrote: »

I've said it a million times now but in my version of NTTD, Blofeld escapes and kills Safin and takes over for the latter half.

To be honest, I would rather have this as the faithful adaptation of Fleming's YOLT.

1. I would still keep the Bond-Madeleine break up in the PTS, no children (means no Mathilde) and no Bond having a family angle!
2. Have Safin introduced as the villain in the first act (yes, even in the PTS, it's him who would manipulate the break up between Bond and Madeleine, Safin is the reason for the Bond and Madeleine break up, because he wants revenge against Madeleine for Mr. White killing Safin's family).
Then once Blofeld had escaped (by the help of Primo), he would kill Safin and would take over as the villain for the rest of the film, then have him revived SPECTRE by creating up Nanobots.
3. Have Blofeld in that Poison Garden, going crazy but still pretending to be serious like Shatterhand in the YOLT novel, it would also be revealed that Lucia Sciarra (Monica Bellucci) became Blofeld's mistress akin to Irma Bunt.
4. Have Bond fought Blofeld in the final act.
5. Blofeld would inject Bond with the virus that could kill "every people that he touches".
6. Bond would still do his suicide mission to keep himself away from mankind.
7. But in the end, there would be a Plot Twist, that he's still alive and been picked up by Madeleine, and it would also be revealed that he has amnesia/he's amnesiac, he has no memories and couldn't remember anything. It also means that Madeleine would only appear at the PTS and ending of the film, she wouldn't appear for the rest of the film.

I think the issue with having Blofeld kill Safin and essentially take over as the film's main villain is that Waltz's Blofeld is... well, pretty naff, not to mention it's just one subplot/twist too many in a film that has a lot packed into it. Safin for all his faults in the second half of the film is a villain with an understandable motive and has quite a bit of menace to him early in the film. Also, the amnesiac plot is one that I think really demands a follow up, and can't be an ending for an actor's tenure. Even if they followed it up with a new actor in the next one, the shock of Bond being brainwashed isn't quite there because we haven't been introduced to this new Bond.

I always say NTTD is an annoying film because it seems like it was a couple of drafts away from being better. Just simple changes would have made it stronger and more engaging. ie.

- Blofeld tricking Bond into thinking Madeline is a SPECTRE agent makes no sense. Just have SPECTRE try to assassinate Bond in the PTS, fail, and then have Bond break off his relationship with Madeline for their protection. Bond's exile would be more self-imposed, and there'd be more dramatic meat to him and Madeline reconciling by the end. Less contrivances, more natural drama.

- Safin needed to be the one to steal the nanobots at the beginning, not simply hijack SPECTRE's theft. Oburchev still works for him at the end of the day, so he'd still be going to the SPECTRE meeting. The CIA would still naturally assume the organisation is responsible for the theft due to Oburchev being sighted near the meeting, still giving Bond/Felix a reason to get involved. Bond would still infiltrate the SPECTRE party, be discovered, and before they'd be about to kill him Primo and Oburchev would release the nanobots. Same outcome, just the plot is more streamlined.

- Maybe to make M a bit more sympathetic it could be made clear that he was in the process of shutting down the project before the theft, and that Safin has in some way modified the nanobots. Maybe it was originally just meant to be a poison, unable to be passed from person to person, but just a weapon specifically modified to kill a specific target when programmed/injected into them. Maybe make up a fake plant that passes from animal to animal before poisoning specific ones that Safin could have been inspired by, and make clear that this feature is his/Oburchev's modification.

- Safin's motive of revenge and destroying SPECTRE needed to be sustained into the third act. As it is, he seems to randomly go mad, and it's never clear whether he's selling the nanobots or planning something with them himself as this 'invisible God'. Just specify that not all the SPECTRE agents were at the meeting, and some are still active around the world. Safin gains intel of their identity, programmes the nanobots, and his plan is to release them on the population. Of course, this would mean all these SPECTRE agent's family dying too. And there'd be this horrific weapon unleashed onto the population. So Bond and Nomi would still have to infiltrate Safin's lair by the end, just without the 'ticking clock' of buyer ships (which, to be honest, adds confusion to the plot and doesn't add as much tension as it seems to want to).

- Safin's obsession with Madeline needed to be emphasised more. I dunno, maybe the fact that he lived after Madeline shot him set off this new lease on life, and in his own twisted mind he sees her as being the one who 'inspired' him to destroy SPECTRE. It's a bit hamfisted, but should the writing make clear that Safin is going mad it could work, and of course we need Madeline to get captured/be in the lair by the end.

- Safin and Bond's dialogue needed to be changed. No invisible God rubbish, just Safin pointing out that SPECTRE wronged Bond too, and that he'd doing the world a service by destroying them, even if it means a few casualties in the process. The whole 'you and I are not so different' schtick is less about Bond and Safin both killing people, but about how they have a common enemy, which is much more interesting and appropriate.

While there are things about NTTD I don't like - Mathilde's inclusion, the way Bond dies, Felix's death - even an alternative script with these changes alone could have made the film more engaging and arguably simpler for viewers.

Some nice ideas there. I like the idea of Bond going into self imposed isolation to protect them. But then it would make Blofeld’s taunting of Bond regarding Madeleine kind of pointless...

007HallY

LeonardPine wrote: »

007HallY wrote: »

MI6HQ wrote: »

NickTwentyTwo wrote: »

I've said it a million times now but in my version of NTTD, Blofeld escapes and kills Safin and takes over for the latter half.

To be honest, I would rather have this as the faithful adaptation of Fleming's YOLT.

1. I would still keep the Bond-Madeleine break up in the PTS, no children (means no Mathilde) and no Bond having a family angle!
2. Have Safin introduced as the villain in the first act (yes, even in the PTS, it's him who would manipulate the break up between Bond and Madeleine, Safin is the reason for the Bond and Madeleine break up, because he wants revenge against Madeleine for Mr. White killing Safin's family).
Then once Blofeld had escaped (by the help of Primo), he would kill Safin and would take over as the villain for the rest of the film, then have him revived SPECTRE by creating up Nanobots.
3. Have Blofeld in that Poison Garden, going crazy but still pretending to be serious like Shatterhand in the YOLT novel, it would also be revealed that Lucia Sciarra (Monica Bellucci) became Blofeld's mistress akin to Irma Bunt.
4. Have Bond fought Blofeld in the final act.
5. Blofeld would inject Bond with the virus that could kill "every people that he touches".
6. Bond would still do his suicide mission to keep himself away from mankind.
7. But in the end, there would be a Plot Twist, that he's still alive and been picked up by Madeleine, and it would also be revealed that he has amnesia/he's amnesiac, he has no memories and couldn't remember anything. It also means that Madeleine would only appear at the PTS and ending of the film, she wouldn't appear for the rest of the film.

I think the issue with having Blofeld kill Safin and essentially take over as the film's main villain is that Waltz's Blofeld is... well, pretty naff, not to mention it's just one subplot/twist too many in a film that has a lot packed into it. Safin for all his faults in the second half of the film is a villain with an understandable motive and has quite a bit of menace to him early in the film. Also, the amnesiac plot is one that I think really demands a follow up, and can't be an ending for an actor's tenure. Even if they followed it up with a new actor in the next one, the shock of Bond being brainwashed isn't quite there because we haven't been introduced to this new Bond.

I always say NTTD is an annoying film because it seems like it was a couple of drafts away from being better. Just simple changes would have made it stronger and more engaging. ie.

- Blofeld tricking Bond into thinking Madeline is a SPECTRE agent makes no sense. Just have SPECTRE try to assassinate Bond in the PTS, fail, and then have Bond break off his relationship with Madeline for their protection. Bond's exile would be more self-imposed, and there'd be more dramatic meat to him and Madeline reconciling by the end. Less contrivances, more natural drama.

- Safin needed to be the one to steal the nanobots at the beginning, not simply hijack SPECTRE's theft. Oburchev still works for him at the end of the day, so he'd still be going to the SPECTRE meeting. The CIA would still naturally assume the organisation is responsible for the theft due to Oburchev being sighted near the meeting, still giving Bond/Felix a reason to get involved. Bond would still infiltrate the SPECTRE party, be discovered, and before they'd be about to kill him Primo and Oburchev would release the nanobots. Same outcome, just the plot is more streamlined.

- Maybe to make M a bit more sympathetic it could be made clear that he was in the process of shutting down the project before the theft, and that Safin has in some way modified the nanobots. Maybe it was originally just meant to be a poison, unable to be passed from person to person, but just a weapon specifically modified to kill a specific target when programmed/injected into them. Maybe make up a fake plant that passes from animal to animal before poisoning specific ones that Safin could have been inspired by, and make clear that this feature is his/Oburchev's modification.

- Safin's motive of revenge and destroying SPECTRE needed to be sustained into the third act. As it is, he seems to randomly go mad, and it's never clear whether he's selling the nanobots or planning something with them himself as this 'invisible God'. Just specify that not all the SPECTRE agents were at the meeting, and some are still active around the world. Safin gains intel of their identity, programmes the nanobots, and his plan is to release them on the population. Of course, this would mean all these SPECTRE agent's family dying too. And there'd be this horrific weapon unleashed onto the population. So Bond and Nomi would still have to infiltrate Safin's lair by the end, just without the 'ticking clock' of buyer ships (which, to be honest, adds confusion to the plot and doesn't add as much tension as it seems to want to).

- Safin's obsession with Madeline needed to be emphasised more. I dunno, maybe the fact that he lived after Madeline shot him set off this new lease on life, and in his own twisted mind he sees her as being the one who 'inspired' him to destroy SPECTRE. It's a bit hamfisted, but should the writing make clear that Safin is going mad it could work, and of course we need Madeline to get captured/be in the lair by the end.

- Safin and Bond's dialogue needed to be changed. No invisible God rubbish, just Safin pointing out that SPECTRE wronged Bond too, and that he'd doing the world a service by destroying them, even if it means a few casualties in the process. The whole 'you and I are not so different' schtick is less about Bond and Safin both killing people, but about how they have a common enemy, which is much more interesting and appropriate.

While there are things about NTTD I don't like - Mathilde's inclusion, the way Bond dies, Felix's death - even an alternative script with these changes alone could have made the film more engaging and arguably simpler for viewers.

Some nice ideas there. I like the idea of Bond going into self imposed isolation to protect them. But then it would make Blofeld’s taunting of Bond regarding Madeleine kind of pointless...

It would have required the dialogue during the interrogation scene to be reworked, but it could have been done. All Blofeld needed to do was ultimately taunt Bond/get him to snap.

Jordo007

I think the premise of Safin was most interesting in concept than in practice.

Rami was great and did well with the material he had, but I wonder with his scheduling conflicts, if a different actor with more free time, would have made Safin a more memorable villain?

007HallY

Jordo007 wrote: »

I think the premise of Safin was most interesting in concept than practice.

Rami was great and did well with the material he had, but I wonder with his scheduling conflicts, if a different actor with more free time, would have made Safin a more memorable villain?

I suppose in the producer's minds having Malek was a selling point for their film. Obviously he'd won an Oscar and had been in Mr. Robot etc.

To be honest, I don't think there's much he or any other actor could have done. The problems with Safin all come from the third act, and while perhaps Malek's schedule prevented him from doing 'overtime' as it were, I suspect the problems go deeper. I get the sense the script wasn't quite ready yet for those scenes (apparently Malek and Craig went off and made up their dialogue during the 'invisible God' scene, and boy does it feel like it). Also, I get the sense that the buyer ships were added in post production and mentions of it within the film were ADR'd or added later into production. Presumably to artificially raise the tension and give the film a 'ticking clock'. I also suspect certain things were trimmed in the edit to the film's detriment (one example being Safin raising his gun at Mathilde, which I think we see him doing in the trailer. In the film we got Mathilde seems to randomly walk away, which I find to be unintentionally funny).

Venutius

Yes, I'd've preferred it if they'd kept the shot of Safin pointing the gun at Mathilde before he let her go. He is the villain, after all.

echo

007HallY wrote: »

Jordo007 wrote: »

I think the premise of Safin was most interesting in concept than practice.

Rami was great and did well with the material he had, but I wonder with his scheduling conflicts, if a different actor with more free time, would have made Safin a more memorable villain?

I suppose in the producer's minds having Malek was a selling point for their film. Obviously he'd won an Oscar and had been in Mr. Robot etc.

To be honest, I don't think there's much he or any other actor could have done. The problems with Safin all come from the third act, and while perhaps Malek's schedule prevented him from doing 'overtime' as it were, I suspect the problems go deeper. I get the sense the script wasn't quite ready yet for those scenes (apparently Malek and Craig went off and made up their dialogue during the 'invisible God' scene, and boy does it feel like it). Also, I get the sense that the buyer ships were added in post production and mentions of it within the film were ADR'd or added later into production. Presumably to artificially raise the tension and give the film a 'ticking clock'. I also suspect certain things were trimmed in the edit to the film's detriment (one example being Safin raising his gun at Mathilde, which I think we see him doing in the trailer. In the film we got Mathilde seems to randomly walk away, which I find to be unintentionally funny).

There are examples of ADR throughout the film. "Madeleine's a daughter of Spectre," etc.

NickTwentyTwo

I always assume there's a ton of ADR in these things.

007HallY

echo wrote: »

007HallY wrote: »

Jordo007 wrote: »

I think the premise of Safin was most interesting in concept than practice.

Rami was great and did well with the material he had, but I wonder with his scheduling conflicts, if a different actor with more free time, would have made Safin a more memorable villain?

I suppose in the producer's minds having Malek was a selling point for their film. Obviously he'd won an Oscar and had been in Mr. Robot etc.

To be honest, I don't think there's much he or any other actor could have done. The problems with Safin all come from the third act, and while perhaps Malek's schedule prevented him from doing 'overtime' as it were, I suspect the problems go deeper. I get the sense the script wasn't quite ready yet for those scenes (apparently Malek and Craig went off and made up their dialogue during the 'invisible God' scene, and boy does it feel like it). Also, I get the sense that the buyer ships were added in post production and mentions of it within the film were ADR'd or added later into production. Presumably to artificially raise the tension and give the film a 'ticking clock'. I also suspect certain things were trimmed in the edit to the film's detriment (one example being Safin raising his gun at Mathilde, which I think we see him doing in the trailer. In the film we got Mathilde seems to randomly walk away, which I find to be unintentionally funny).

There are examples of ADR throughout the film. "Madeleine's a daughter of Spectre," etc.

Yes, another being 'It's working, only SPECTRE are dying'.

NickTwentyTwo wrote: »

I always assume there's a ton of ADR in these things.

It's common practice in post production. Sometimes as much as 70% of a film's dialogue is ADR. It's usually done to enhance performances though, but fresh dialogue can be added to change plot details, make certain things more clear etc. It's not always ideal when used for the latter reasons though, but sometimes it can't be helped. I suspect NTTD actually uses ADR quite a bit for this purpose, more than most of us would suspect. The 'it's working, only SPECTRE are dying' moment is an example (watch it, Oburchev's lips barely even move and it's a relatively wide shot where a closer one would have been more effective), and my instinct is it was felt that it needed to be added in because it was felt this plot point wasn't clear enough. It actually makes sense, NTTD is a rather convoluted film and even I had to take a few seconds to think about what was going on the first time I watched it.

ImpertinentGoon

I think we're all in agreement that Safin just drops off massively later in the film.
I've written it here before, but the idea that he is a villain who uses other people's resources against them is fascinating. He has MI6 give Obruchev the resources to develop and then manipulate Heracles (and I do think it's in the film that he built it differently to what MI6/M wanted and the whole "killing relatives"-thing wasn't supposed to be part of the original Heracles). Then he has SPECTRE steal the virus from MI6 and get Obruchev out. After that he has Ash use the CIA to get Bond to go into the party (and provide him operational support in Paloma) and give Blofeld a reason to actually trigger the weapon and then have Bond and Paloma exfiltrate Obruchev - fighting off MI6! - and the weapon. Until we arrive on his island, it's basically him, Ash and Obruchev and the three of them manage to take down SPECTRE and completely throw MI6 into disarray.

And then he suddenly has an army of balaclava-wearing henchmen on his island, plus a farm and a factory (whatever the hell that is supposed to be). Again, I've said this before, but I think the henchmen in the finale should have been other soldiers from a different country or from some other criminal organization that Safin manipulated - maybe SPECTRE remnants - into working towards his aims (protecting him, killing Bond). They even could have done a whole thing about parasitic plants that latch onto a host plant and get all their resources through that until it dies and then carries on.

ProfJoeButcher

'Book of Mormon' is ADR too, and I wish I was a better lip-reader so I could know the original line...

SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷

I think one of the best things that could happen to Bond 26, is if the villain were to be a one man show like Scaramanga and as good as Bond. Maybe Bond 26 can have other villains with their henchmen, but the main villain can be an elusive one man villain.

007HallY

ImpertinentGoon wrote: »

And then he suddenly has an army of balaclava-wearing henchmen on his island, plus a farm and a factory (whatever the hell that is supposed to be). Again, I've said this before, but I think the henchmen in the finale should have been other soldiers from a different country or from some other criminal organization that Safin manipulated - maybe SPECTRE remnants - into working towards his aims (protecting him, killing Bond). They even could have done a whole thing about parasitic plants that latch onto a host plant and get all their resources through that until it dies and then carries on.

I love the idea of Safin's men being SPECTRE remnants. To be fair I guess Primo is when you think about it, but he's just a lone wolf of sorts. It would have been interesting if the film had specifically said that Safin had made a deal or something with the remaining SPECTRE agents not to hurt them or their family with the nanobots if they helped him. Like they're being held hostage almost. It would have given this idea that Safin is a man slowly morphing from a man out for revenge into this maniacal villain, one who has created this little 'kingdom' for himself (so not unlike Blofeld with his Garden of Death in YOLT). It might have made him a bit more tragic if anything too, seeing what revenge can do to a man.

Jordo007

@ImpertinentGoon that's really good thinking, I just wished they played up to that a little bit more. Safin is like the puppet master Blofeld was meant to be in Spectre

ertert

I thought Safin was an excellent villain although definitely not a central figure in the film like Silva was in Skyfall. I also like that he comes off as kind of a wannabe with delusions of grandeur, like he's this pathetic angry little man but he does manage to completely get the drop on Bond at the very last second. At first I thought they should've done more with him and had more scenes with him, especially with him in the mask, but an actor as good as Rami Malek shouldn't have his face hidden for very long. He works really well within the plot and his handful of scenes are excellent have a lot of buildup.

My favorite part is when Bond points the gun at him, and knowing that he's about to die, he just smirks at Bond because he knows he's won. Then Bond can't even look at him when he pulls the trigger. He's just so done with this loser and so angry that he ruined his chance to be with his family.

peter

@ertert … I’m on the same page as you. I loved Safin. And yes, the angry, little man… one, as I’ve stated before, I think is clearly an incel. I loved this character in that he felt so deeply creepy and pathetic. He had nothing to lose, especially after Blofeld’s death, making him a very dangerous person, indeed.

CharmianBond

I'd also like to chime in and say that Safin really works for me. The first thing we see of him is murdering in the name of revenge and then saving Madeleine, his character has such a twisted need for control that by the time we get to the finale all he can think to do is destroy I find effective, and that also contrasts with Bond having 'created' Mathilde. And like you say the incel metaphor, he is pathetic and that's also what makes him so chilling. I think it could've been sharper in it's execution, the idea that he's so creatively bankrupt that he's just steal everyone else's ideas and resources, and even the fact the Poison Garden is inherited from his father I think could've been played up more but I like that that reading is there.

SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷

I still feel Amalric played the subtle villain better. I think he would have absolutely nailed Safin, like he did Greene.

Venutius

Amalric played Greene brilliantly - he really made you hate the oily little rat!

NickTwentyTwo

Venutius wrote: »

Amalric played Greene brilliantly - he really made you hate the oily little rat!

Yes, and IMO he felt much more realistic than Safin did. Malek was pushing, while Amalric was natural (again, in my opinion).

Venutius

Yeah, I completely agree, Nick. I didn't dislike Safin but there were a couple of times where you could see Remi acting, whereas Amalric was so naturalistic there wasn't any 'process' on show - Greene came across as an actual person, not a character. If that makes sense!?

RichardTheBruce

Dominic Greene was presented with inherent sleaziness, no backstory or further rationale behind his activities. And realistic. Worked great for me.

Safin has among the most deeply defined history and motivations and presence of a villain through a Bond film. If not the most. Where exaggerated or extreme, that's usually a good fit for a Bond film. Again, well received by me.

Two very different villains.

NickTwentyTwo

Good points, @RichardTheBruce. Similar to Trevelyan, I suppose, another villain we got to see years prior to the plot and had a deep enough backstory.

007HallY

NickTwentyTwo wrote: »

Venutius wrote: »

Amalric played Greene brilliantly - he really made you hate the oily little rat!

Yes, and IMO he felt much more realistic than Safin did. Malek was pushing, while Amalric was natural (again, in my opinion).

I get that. It's a shame - Malek is a naturally intense performer with an idiosyncratic manner to him. If the writing had been stronger in the third act or they'd allowed Malek to do something different we might have gotten a stronger performance. Compare his performance to Amalric's in QOS, or Bardem's in SF. Both Bardem and Amalric look like they're almost having fun with their roles (especially Bardem) and it gives the villains that extra bit of menace - that weird sense of glee they have when they hurt Bond/those close to him. Malek in the last third of NTTD just doesn't have that, and it looks like he's taking things just a bit too seriously with his generic nowhere European accent and horrendously cliched 'I'm an invisible God, you and I are not so different Mr. Bond' dialogue. Not all his fault of course.

jetsetwilly

ColonelAdamski wrote: »

NickTwentyTwo wrote: »

I dream of the day where everybody just gets over it. Including the two of you; I don't think he was even responding to either of you was he?

Charming! I've not been here for months and I get a 'shut up and get over it' straight away.

Same here. Probably why I have not been on here for a while. @NickTwentyTwo gave us both a kindly reminder that we are no longer welcome.... ;)