NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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Comments

  • Posts: 1,095
    Seriously, you'd be happy with X-Ray eyes and teleportation in a Bond film?

    I think you're having a little joke here. Come on. . .

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited November 2023 Posts: 8,279
    Seriously, you'd be happy with X-Ray eyes and teleportation in a Bond film?

    I think you're having a little joke here. Come on. . .

    It’s not an avenue I would want to see Bond take. But we’ve already seen invisible cars and laser satellites, so this conceit that Bond films are “realistic” just doesn’t fly.
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    [
    Yes, I wished they've kept Bond's death vague.
    Like yes, it would be messy now, because what?

    Another new timeline for Bond 26? Where would that set? Another reboot?

    Obviously, and for the better.
    Unless, they went back to the original timeline where DAD ended

    Brosnan Bond was described as a relic of the Cold War. Unless Bond 26 is a period piece, I wouldn’t buy the conceit of the new guy being the same one we saw in the 90s.
    Because it would be already three different timelines: The Classic Bond Era, The Craig Era, and the New Bond Actor's Era.

    It’s more like seven timelines. Heck, when I introduced my friend to Bond, she already assumed that each new Bond was essentially a reboot of the character to an extent. And I can’t blame her, given how the films are largely standalone.

    Anyway, I’m personally glad that Craig’s era had a definitive ending and that they aren’t going to try to continue it with another actor. The idea of a 30 year old actor stepping in and supposedly being the same 50 year old Bond we saw in NTTD just doesn’t play well, especially with all that baggage. Better to just start anew with a Bond that’s already been established as a 00 agent for several years, the same way DR NO did in 1962.
  • Posts: 1,095
    Seriously, you'd be happy with X-Ray eyes and teleportation in a Bond film?

    I think you're having a little joke here. Come on. . .

    It’s not an avenue I would want to see Bond take. But we’ve already seen invisible cars and laser satellites, so this conceit that Bond films are “realistic” just doesn’t fly.

    But you will at least admit they're based on real world science, and they're not science fiction. I know there's a lot of improbabilities in James Bond films, and they're fantastical, but they're not sci-fi or fantasy films like The Hobbit or Spiderman.

    Is it only me that doesn't see Bond movies as science fiction films? Perhaps I've been approaching them wrong all these years.
  • edited November 2023 Posts: 4,499
    I mean, technically we’ve already had x-ray vision with Bond’s x-ray glasses in TWINE….
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,518
    James Bond films aren’t even realistic. They’re fantastical. Even Fleming had Bond fighting off a giant squid.

    And fighting a madman in a Japanese castle, with a Garden of Death, as he walked around in an armoured suit!

    Le Carre is a starting point for a more realistic spy, not James Bond.
  • Posts: 12,570
    Cool thing about both Bond movies and books is that we've gotten a nice variety of more and less realistic tales. And in all fairness, what goes "too far" is purely subjective.
  • DarthDimi wrote: »
    Would you have been satisfied if the "James Bond will return" line hadn't been added, and if Bond 26 was announced a few years later? Just an honest, neutral question, no trap.

    I'd always be unsatisfied with any James Bond film that killed him off. The fact that they announced that he's not dead in the credits only makes it worse.

    Wanna know what I want? I want to see him emerge from the cloud of the explosion, whizzing across the water on Roger's jet-ski with the James Bond theme blaring. That's satisfaction! None of this nuking a lovelorn Bond with a cuddly toy in his belt. Sod all that!
    Couldn’t have said it better myself!! Like you I have no use for a mopey teary-eyed Bond getting nuked like a good little sacrificial lamb for the good of mankind and his family. Unfortunately they don’t make Bond films for us anymore, where you walk out of the theater feeling 10 feet tall!! That’s why I’m glad that we have some of the most entertaining pieces of cinema in our collections with the REAL James Bond films of years past. We’ll always have those.

    I honestly have zero interest in the next incarnation of Bond films and I know that whatever they give us it won’t be to my liking. I don’t watch modern cinema at all (except maybe the M:I films) as there’s simply nothing out there anymore that grabs me. My TV/film viewing (whenever I find the time for it) is almost exclusively stuff from the 60s, 70s, and 80s. That’s really my sweet spot for the best of film and television.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited November 2023 Posts: 8,279
    Seriously, you'd be happy with X-Ray eyes and teleportation in a Bond film?

    I think you're having a little joke here. Come on. . .

    It’s not an avenue I would want to see Bond take. But we’ve already seen invisible cars and laser satellites, so this conceit that Bond films are “realistic” just doesn’t fly.

    But you will at least admit they're based on real world science

    Not at all, because they never were.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,728
    mtm wrote: »

    I remain puzzled about what's so bad about that scene.

    It's one I always look forward to. Waltz is certainly good in it, and I really like Craig's energy. As far as I can recall, it's easily the most awkward situation we've ever seen Bond in--recently unretired, just ran into his estranged ex who has just had a panic attack, and now he has to ask Blofeld for help, and he has virtually nothing to bargain with. He's not going to behave as he does in a casino scene.

    It's okay to not like films of course, but I think it's common that people don't like a film for one reason, a distaste for a thematic choice or whatever, and concoct other reasons for disliking it as explanation, typically pointing at things that are not obviously bad, but are unique to the film. Potential reasons for disliking NTTD are pretty obvious, and Craig moving his arms too much in one scene is not among them. My favorite Bond film is Spectre, and I've grown accustomed to rolling my eyes at ludicrous complaints about the production design (!) or poor PTS (!), and it's all just kind of amusing.
  • NoTimeToLiveNoTimeToLive Jamaica
    edited November 2023 Posts: 112
    mtm wrote: »
    I have no idea why the snarkiness is needed.

    It's more exasperation to be honest. Let me try to explain.

    For real world fiction to work, it has to adhere to real world rules. James Bond doesn't teleport, time travel, fly or have X-ray eyes. He doesn't regenerate like Dr Who or have magic powers like Harry Potter. He was conceived as a literary character just like Tom Sawyer, Sherlock Holmes and Gabriel Oaks. He doesn't die and come back to life, and no matter what word you use*, killing him and bringing him back is a deceitful thing to do, and shows no respect for the audience. How on earth can the viewer have any emotional attachment to a character dying, when they're told the same character will be back, minutes later?
    Simon Mayo made exactly this point to Mark Kermode when the latter did his review. He asked "what real-word cinematic character has been killed off and resurrected in the same series?". Kermode put him right in the same way I've been constantly put right on here.
    "It's a different continuity".

    There you go. It's an explanation that means nothing, because it makes no sense. If Fleming had killed Bond at the end of FRWL, and bought him back for the next book, saying "this is a different continuity", people would have rightly complained. Yet we're supposed to accept this silly conceit in a movie series. Why? Because bleedin' Batman did it? Sorry, but that's not good enough for James Bond.

    Read this next sentence and please ponder on its meaning. It completely explains my stance in five words.

    When anything's possible, nothing matters.



    *Let's compile a list, shall we?

    Continuity.
    Alternate Universe.
    Character Arc.
    Timeline.
    Incarnation.

    Are there any I've missed?

    I don't understand why Bond being part of the same continuity in the 1960s AND the 2020s (meaning he'd have to be at least 80 in No Time To Die!) adheres to real world rules. You still have to accept that they are in a different continuity.

    Had Bond lived in NTTD and returned as a younger man in Bond 26, that would have been just as impossible. If you don't question how he keeps getting younger, why would you question how he returned back to life?
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,518
    mtm wrote: »
    I have no idea why the snarkiness is needed.

    It's more exasperation to be honest. Let me try to explain.

    For real world fiction to work, it has to adhere to real world rules. James Bond doesn't teleport, time travel, fly or have X-ray eyes. He doesn't regenerate like Dr Who or have magic powers like Harry Potter. He was conceived as a literary character just like Tom Sawyer, Sherlock Holmes and Gabriel Oaks. He doesn't die and come back to life, and no matter what word you use*, killing him and bringing him back is a deceitful thing to do, and shows no respect for the audience. How on earth can the viewer have any emotional attachment to a character dying, when they're told the same character will be back, minutes later?
    Simon Mayo made exactly this point to Mark Kermode when the latter did his review. He asked "what real-word cinematic character has been killed off and resurrected in the same series?". Kermode put him right in the same way I've been constantly put right on here.
    "It's a different continuity".

    There you go. It's an explanation that means nothing, because it makes no sense. If Fleming had killed Bond at the end of FRWL, and bought him back for the next book, saying "this is a different continuity", people would have rightly complained. Yet we're supposed to accept this silly conceit in a movie series. Why? Because bleedin' Batman did it? Sorry, but that's not good enough for James Bond.

    Read this next sentence and please ponder on its meaning. It completely explains my stance in five words.

    When anything's possible, nothing matters.



    *Let's compile a list, shall we?

    Continuity.
    Alternate Universe.
    Character Arc.
    Timeline.
    Incarnation.

    Are there any I've missed?

    I don't understand why Bond being part of the same continuity in the 1960s AND the 2020s (meaning he'd have to be at least 80 in No Time To Die!) adheres to real world rules. You still have to accept that they are in a different continuity.

    Had Bond lived in NTTD and returned as a younger man in Bond 26 would have been just as impossible. If you don't question how he keeps getting younger, why would you question why he returned back to life?

    Good point.

    In other words, don’t complicate things.

    Just hate the film, and watch the other ones.

    Whether it makes sense to you or not, Bond will be back in cinemas in a few years.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,279
    mtm wrote: »
    I have no idea why the snarkiness is needed.

    It's more exasperation to be honest. Let me try to explain.

    For real world fiction to work, it has to adhere to real world rules. James Bond doesn't teleport, time travel, fly or have X-ray eyes. He doesn't regenerate like Dr Who or have magic powers like Harry Potter. He was conceived as a literary character just like Tom Sawyer, Sherlock Holmes and Gabriel Oaks. He doesn't die and come back to life, and no matter what word you use*, killing him and bringing him back is a deceitful thing to do, and shows no respect for the audience. How on earth can the viewer have any emotional attachment to a character dying, when they're told the same character will be back, minutes later?
    Simon Mayo made exactly this point to Mark Kermode when the latter did his review. He asked "what real-word cinematic character has been killed off and resurrected in the same series?". Kermode put him right in the same way I've been constantly put right on here.
    "It's a different continuity".

    There you go. It's an explanation that means nothing, because it makes no sense. If Fleming had killed Bond at the end of FRWL, and bought him back for the next book, saying "this is a different continuity", people would have rightly complained. Yet we're supposed to accept this silly conceit in a movie series. Why? Because bleedin' Batman did it? Sorry, but that's not good enough for James Bond.

    Read this next sentence and please ponder on its meaning. It completely explains my stance in five words.

    When anything's possible, nothing matters.



    *Let's compile a list, shall we?

    Continuity.
    Alternate Universe.
    Character Arc.
    Timeline.
    Incarnation.

    Are there any I've missed?

    I don't understand why Bond being part of the same continuity in the 1960s AND the 2020s (meaning he'd have to be at least 80 in No Time To Die!) adheres to real world rules. You still have to accept that they are in a different continuity.

    Had Bond lived in NTTD and returned as a younger man in Bond 26 would have been just as impossible. If you don't question how he keeps getting younger, why would you question why he returned back to life?

    giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952ql29fr64sbovn35r4rmujb9jnakxbgsgihiws76a&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 14,040
    My feelings haven't changed. I watched it once in the cinema, and haven't seen it since. It might as well be... one of the 90% of Marvel films that I haven't seen, for all the lack of interest I have in seeing it again.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,431
    But...but...but...James Bond can't die! James Bond can't have a child!

    James Bond must womanize! Oh wait, James Bond can't have a child!

    That brings me to the title of Bond 26...Shooting Blanks.

    [/snark]
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,518
    echo wrote: »
    But...but...but...James Bond can't die! James Bond can't have a child!

    James Bond must womanize! Oh wait, James Bond can't have a child!

    That brings me to the title of Bond 26...Shooting Blanks.

    [/snark]

    😂 😂 😂
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2023 Posts: 16,899
    Anyway, I’m personally glad that Craig’s era had a definitive ending and that they aren’t going to try to continue it with another actor. The idea of a 30 year old actor stepping in and supposedly being the same 50 year old Bond we saw in NTTD just doesn’t play well, especially with all that baggage. Better to just start anew with a Bond that’s already been established as a 00 agent for several years, the same way DR NO did in 1962.

    Yeah, whether he died or not makes no difference really; this version of the character was always ending with Craig. To get caught up on the death and being confused about how he can possibly come back is to rather miss the point of many of the plots. From the moment 007 became an 'old dog' in Skyfall, eleven years ago, Bond #7 was always going to be a reboot.

    Edit: I see NoTimeToLive made this point better above.
  • I could see them recasting after Skyfall, that could have been a perfect time and still been "Craigs" Bond character. But yeah, definitive end after SP and NTTD.
  • Posts: 1,095
    I'd have loved them to have re-cast Bond after Skyfall. Craig's Bond would then have been a great 'Bond begins' trilogy, then we could have gone back to proper missions, where Bond goes off after bad bastards without any emotional baggage.
    That said, I did enjoy SPECTRE more than most on here.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,128
    Oh, christ, I've just been skimming over the last sixty or so posts on this thread, and to the extent I understood their contents I can only say that I still think that NTTD is one of the top 5 Bond movies for me, including his death which I accept as such. He'll be back, in yet a different timeline, just like CR started a different timeline. So cool down, people. The Craid tenure was great, but it is over. But another one is to come.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,518
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Oh, christ, I've just been skimming over the last sixty or so posts on this thread, and to the extent I understood their contents I can only say that I still think that NTTD is one of the top 5 Bond movies for me, including his death which I accept as such. He'll be back, in yet a different timeline, just like CR started a different timeline. So cool down, people. The Craid tenure was great, but it is over. But another one is to come.

    Hopefully wise words will be listened to @j_w_pepper
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,598
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Oh, christ, I've just been skimming over the last sixty or so posts on this thread, and to the extent I understood their contents I can only say that I still think that NTTD is one of the top 5 Bond movies for me, including his death which I accept as such. He'll be back, in yet a different timeline, just like CR started a different timeline. So cool down, people. The Craid tenure was great, but it is over. But another one is to come.

    Pretty much how I feel.

    After all, didn't Blofeld DIE when dropped down a smoke stack in FYEO? But then he was back?
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited November 2023 Posts: 4,546
    It take 6 years before Spectre get his Dutch tv première and there show second time very quike. But No Time To Die wil get his Dutch tv premiere in late December 2023. On 22 November 2023 RTL7 wil turn in RTL007 again and start repeating with the movies. There possible plan on it on way NTTD wil be on Sunday. I expect 17 December.

    Quistion wil be, wil there start the movie with showing Moon or straight to the dots after MGM logo.

    https://www.rtl.nl/pers/persberichten/nieuw-bij-rtl-in-november-the-jump-kopen-of-slopen-all-against-1-james-bond--sport/ZQvneBEAACAAz7SH
    RTL 7 Films: James Bond Marathon
    Cancel maar vast je plannen voor november, want deze marathon wil je niet missen! Vanaf 22 november zie je alle James Bond films bij RTL 7. Sean Connery, George Lazenby, Roger Moore, Timothy Dalton, Pierce Brosnan en Daniel Craig zijn allemaal te zien in de rol van de Britse geheimagent. De 007 marathon loopt door in december en eindigt met de TV première van de nieuwste James Bond film: ’No Time To Die’. De spannendste en bekendste filmreeks komt dus vanaf november naar de Nederlandse huiskamers op RTL 007!
  • Posts: 11,213
    I've just realised that I've never posted my thoughts on NTTD.

    Seeing as I gave it a rewatch a few days ago I thought I'd do so now.

    Initially when walking out the cinema I thought it was a decent if flawed Bond film. I liked the controversial decision to kill off Bond and felt it was a good end to Craig's run.

    However, I don't think it stands up to repeated viewings.

    I continue to love the first 20 minutes. Tense, exciting and beautifully shot. Both Craig and Seydoux are excellent, as is Rami Malek and the young actress who played child Madeline.

    After the opening song however the film takes a dive and never fully recovers.

    We have a low rent story about a nasty bioweapon and a cartoon scientist who I call Boris 2 (at least Alan Cumming had some funny/memorable dialogue). David Denclick also represents one of the film's main problems - the awkward shifting in tone. There are times when it wants to be a serious drama, and other times when it wants to be a cheesy comic flick.

    The party action sequence felt like I was playing 007 Nightfire right down to the colours, dialogue and music cues. Not once did I feel Bond or anyone else was in danger. This style just doesn't suit Daniel Craig either. This isn't the blunt instrument we saw beating up the bloke in the bathroom in Casino Royale or even the desperate man looking for answers in this film's PTS.

    The "007" gimmick also seemed really overdone upon this rewatch. How many times do they say "find 007" or "it's only a number". We get it.

    There are times when the direction and performances are off - most notably involving Daniel Craig. I know I'm not the first to point this out but his acting during the Blofeld interrogation sequence is REALLY bad. It feels very mannered as if the director told him to move his hands more because the virus is on them. Not very natural at all. Blofeld's death is also poorly handled. No gasping for air like the other Spectre agents - just bang! dead. A poor end to an underwhelming Blofeld.

    The last 40 minutes where we are introduced to Madeline's daughter and Bond expresses his regret are ok but nothing that special.

    I do quite like the raid of the island in the last act. The Saving Private Ryan-esque moments of the sound dropping out after an explosion are very effective (it was good in the PTS too). I also enjoy the final fight with Primo and his inevitable demise.

    Rami Malek also makes a very creepy Safin and you are glued to him in all his scenes. His final execution is brutal.

    Bond's death scene will continue to be very divisive amongst Bond fans but I for one think it was well done. Great score by Zimmer and excellent performances from both Craig and Seydoux.

    Overall though for all its plus points the film is uneven and has a messy script. I honestly don't think it will go down as one of the all time great Bond classics. It's also created something of a backlash towards Daniel Craig too. I adore him in CR and think he's great in QoS and SF but the silly humour is NOT his strong point. He also needs good direction to get the best out of him - much like Brosnan did.
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    TripAces wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Oh, christ, I've just been skimming over the last sixty or so posts on this thread, and to the extent I understood their contents I can only say that I still think that NTTD is one of the top 5 Bond movies for me, including his death which I accept as such. He'll be back, in yet a different timeline, just like CR started a different timeline. So cool down, people. The Craid tenure was great, but it is over. But another one is to come.

    Pretty much how I feel.

    After all, didn't Blofeld DIE when dropped down a smoke stack in FYEO? But then he was back?

    Fully agree on that. But freedom of thought is important. As is freedom of taste.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,598
    TripAces wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Oh, christ, I've just been skimming over the last sixty or so posts on this thread, and to the extent I understood their contents I can only say that I still think that NTTD is one of the top 5 Bond movies for me, including his death which I accept as such. He'll be back, in yet a different timeline, just like CR started a different timeline. So cool down, people. The Craid tenure was great, but it is over. But another one is to come.

    Pretty much how I feel.

    After all, didn't Blofeld DIE when dropped down a smoke stack in FYEO? But then he was back?

    Fully agree on that. But freedom of thought is important. As is freedom of taste.

    Agree 100%
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    mtm wrote: »
    I have no idea why the snarkiness is needed.

    It's more exasperation to be honest. Let me try to explain.

    For real world fiction to work, it has to adhere to real world rules. James Bond doesn't teleport, time travel, fly or have X-ray eyes. He doesn't regenerate like Dr Who or have magic powers like Harry Potter. He was conceived as a literary character just like Tom Sawyer, Sherlock Holmes and Gabriel Oaks. He doesn't die and come back to life, and no matter what word you use*, killing him and bringing him back is a deceitful thing to do, and shows no respect for the audience. How on earth can the viewer have any emotional attachment to a character dying, when they're told the same character will be back, minutes later?
    Simon Mayo made exactly this point to Mark Kermode when the latter did his review. He asked "what real-word cinematic character has been killed off and resurrected in the same series?". Kermode put him right in the same way I've been constantly put right on here.
    "It's a different continuity".

    There you go. It's an explanation that means nothing, because it makes no sense. If Fleming had killed Bond at the end of FRWL, and bought him back for the next book, saying "this is a different continuity", people would have rightly complained. Yet we're supposed to accept this silly conceit in a movie series. Why? Because bleedin' Batman did it? Sorry, but that's not good enough for James Bond.

    Read this next sentence and please ponder on its meaning. It completely explains my stance in five words.

    When anything's possible, nothing matters.



    *Let's compile a list, shall we?

    Continuity.
    Alternate Universe.
    Character Arc.
    Timeline.
    Incarnation.

    Are there any I've missed?

    I don't understand why Bond being part of the same continuity in the 1960s AND the 2020s (meaning he'd have to be at least 80 in No Time To Die!) adheres to real world rules. You still have to accept that they are in a different continuity.

    Had Bond lived in NTTD and returned as a younger man in Bond 26 would have been just as impossible. If you don't question how he keeps getting younger, why would you question why he returned back to life?

    giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952ql29fr64sbovn35r4rmujb9jnakxbgsgihiws76a&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

    Yes, nobody could seriously insist, that Bond in DN is still the same charcter than NTTD Bond. He'd be well in this eoighties or nineties. And Arthur Conan Doyle was serious, when he killed off Sherlock Holmes. That he gave in after several years to the readers of the Strand Magazibne and his publisher, is a different beast. And the explanation, how Holmes could survive the fall from the Reichenbach ... Falls, and Moriarty dies, is also a bhit weird...
  • Posts: 2,090
    I'm fine with accepting the Bond in DN is the same character in NTTD. Not the same actor and filmed years apart, but very much Bond. If not the same character, then who else? Another guy named James Bond? Shades of CR 67? Not a fan of another timeline explanation. Too much the alternate or parallel universe for my liking. How do I make sense of all the discrepancies. I don't. Why bother? This is a series that has never shown much interest in such matters.
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    Okay, I phrased it wrong, maybe linguistic inadequacy. I meant, that the different Bonds were Bonds of the times the movies were made in. Fleming's Bond lived in the 1950/s/eárly 1960's. Connery's Bond was a 60's Bond, Brosnan was the 90's Bond, etc. Even if they are supposed to be the same character, the times they live in, are different. Otherwise Bond would be, well, in his nineties and probably retired....
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,061
    Or dead.

  • edited December 2023 Posts: 1,095
    CrabKey wrote: »
    If not the same character, then who else? Another guy named James Bond?

    The next film will feature the same James Bond, who is similar to the character that Daniel Craig played, but because Craig's Bond is dead, then the next film will be a different character.
    But there aren't two cinematic James Bonds, okay? There's only one, and he can move between different 'incarnations'. He's a bit more like Dr Who now.
    So, the next movie will feature a new character called James Bond, who is the same person Daniel Craig played, but he's in a different timeline, and a different incarnation of the same person. But a different character.

    It's all very simple really.
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