NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    slide_99 wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    On a side note, I respect and sympathize with someone saying "I hated the ending because he didn't resonate with me, since I found the Bond/Swann relationship poorly handled", for example. But if someone comes to me and say that "Bond CANNOT die because he just can't, he's an icon, he never died in 59 years, end of the story, the movie is automatically horse shit, EoN ruined my life" I just can't take that person seriously.

    Basically you're saying that Eon can do anything they want with the character

    Yes, they can.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    TripAces wrote: »
    I think it is also important to note that the two stalwarts of the series, Roger Moore and Sean Connery, have passed since the last film. To what extent that factored into the decisions on NTTD is questionable and maybe irrelevant, but I can't help but think that the death of James Bond is an ironic salute to RM and SC as much as it is a symbolic end to DC's tenure.

    Well, Connery died last autumn, after NTTD was completed, so I am not so sure about his death having any impactt on EON.

    Oh, that's right. COVID has messed with my brain. LOL

  • TheQueensPeaceTheQueensPeace That's Classified
    Posts: 74
    why is the tone here so divisive? and who on here feel they can speak either for / against either fandom or indeed EON. Also, EON are not watching the forums btw. You don't get teacher's pet marks for sucking up ;)
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    slide_99 wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    On a side note, I respect and sympathize with someone saying "I hated the ending because he didn't resonate with me, since I found the Bond/Swann relationship poorly handled", for example. But if someone comes to me and say that "Bond CANNOT die because he just can't, he's an icon, he never died in 59 years, end of the story, the movie is automatically horse shit, EoN ruined my life" I just can't take that person seriously.
    ...particularly for no reason...
    It's not really for no reason though. I understand why people might not resonate with the way it was done or the idea itself, but considering everything taken into account about Craig's era and the fact that this is his definitive last film, and seemingly the first actor to actually know when his last film would be, I wouldn't say it was for no reason.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 693
    Zekidk wrote: »
    So after waiting six years and hype being built up the last three years, all we are left with is not a Bond 25 celebration, but a huge brawl about the death of James Bond. How sad.

    That's because BB and MGW made a funeral, not a celebration.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited October 2021 Posts: 4,343
    slide_99 wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Most of the fans against this concept of Bond dying as the natural conclusion of a self contained arc have no interpretation to offer.

    Plenty of people in this thread and elsewhere have offered valid criticisms of the ending. BTW it's not a natural conclusion. Nothing in the previous movies made this conclusion inevitable. In fact I'd say the most natural end to Craig's tenure was what they did with SP.

    Some ideas are inherently bad. If NTTD ended like a typical Bond movie would you really be demanding the ending we currently have?

    True, but those people are not automatically against the idea no matter how it's done.

    Not a natural conclusion? If there's a common theme throughout the films is that Bond is a man cursed by death, where everything he touches, and I quote, "wither and die" and the end of NTTD even directly homages Bond's philosophy of life as it was written by Fleming himself.
    Saying that killing off Craig's Bond is an inherently bad idea is just an over simplification caused by obsession, plus it's an insult to a lot of people's intelligence.
    slide_99 wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    On a side note, I respect and sympathize with someone saying "I hated the ending because he didn't resonate with me, since I found the Bond/Swann relationship poorly handled", for example. But if someone comes to me and say that "Bond CANNOT die because he just can't, he's an icon, he never died in 59 years, end of the story, the movie is automatically horse shit, EoN ruined my life" I just can't take that person seriously.

    Basically you're saying that Eon can do anything they want with the character and that if people fundamentally object to that, their opinions are invalid. So if they make a movie where Bond is an alien or a ghost, fans have to blindly accept it and justify their dislike of the movie on other grounds (acting, direction, etc).

    I have to disagree. That might fly for a normal installment of a franchise, but when the filmmakers do something extreme and divisive, and particularly for no reason, people have every right to dislike it for that reason and no other. NTTD's ending invites controversy, and it's ultimately the only thing that people are going to be talking about.

    I'm not saying that, come on. And you keep of missing the point. Why "no reason"? It's been almost a week inhere that a lot of people kept on explaining the reasons why this notion works, makes sense. Just accept the fact that you hate the concept, and that's it. Because that's really it.
    Zekidk wrote: »
    So after waiting six years and hype being built up the last three years, all we are left with is not a Bond 25 celebration, but a huge brawl about the death of James Bond. How sad.

    Speak for yourself. ;)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    So after waiting six years and hype being built up the last three years, all we are left with is not a Bond 25 celebration, but a huge brawl about the death of James Bond. How sad.

    That's because BB and MGW made a funeral, not a celebration.

    A funeral can be celebratory.
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 575
    I love how there's literally other things that could be quite contentious in this film (Bond and his daughter) and we're still stuck on Bond dying.

    It's going to be like this for the next few years, isn't it?
  • Posts: 82
    Yep ;)
  • SkyfallCraigSkyfallCraig Rome, Italy
    Posts: 630
    Zekidk wrote: »
    So after waiting six years and hype being built up the last three years, all we are left with is not a Bond 25 celebration, but a huge brawl about the death of James Bond. How sad.

    Oh on my side I am left with a wonderful movie i already saw twice.
    I was not a fan of the delays and very critic of how Eon handled the situation, but I am very satisfied.
    This Is One that Will go in the Christmas rotation
  • TheQueensPeaceTheQueensPeace That's Classified
    Posts: 74
    incidentally, though i cannot of course speak for fleming? suspect he knew his creation would outlive him? Kingsley Amis was already lined up as editor and thereby successor in all but name? And fact is: Ian tried to kill 007 twice. Both occasions saw his and Bond's return. It never diminished the danger or thrills but did in effect set Bond on course for immortality and reinvention in new decades /eras; none of which depended on his being 'dead' in any: quite the opposite, in fact!

    As for the average viewer vs fans? IT IS THE FORMER GROUP who might be more annoyed by NTTD. They go to Bond for escapism, tropes, nostalgia and fun, albeit with VERY occasional punctuation films for 'the fans'. They will leave perhaps confused, annoyed and thinking Bond gone for good. Cue confusion, too, at any mooted reboot.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    00Heaven wrote: »
    I love how there's literally other things that could be quite contentious in this film (Bond and his daughter) and we're still stuck on Bond dying.

    It's going to be like this for the next few years, isn't it?

    It’ll take a decade.

    I remember when the Brosnan films were new, most fans thought of his run as being too distinctive and not something you can easily lump in with the 1962-1989 films. But long after his era passed the sentiment had changed to his films being lumped in with the older films. It’s only older fans that still regard 1962-1989 as “the original run”.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 3,276
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    So after waiting six years and hype being built up the last three years, all we are left with is not a Bond 25 celebration, but a huge brawl about the death of James Bond. How sad.

    That's because BB and MGW made a funeral, not a celebration.
    Thought it was DC's call. My point is that I find it sad that they wanted the audience to leave the theatre in tears, rather with a smile on their face.
    matt_u wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    So after waiting six years and hype being built up the last three years, all we are left with is not a Bond 25 celebration, but a huge brawl about the death of James Bond. How sad.

    Speak for yourself. ;)
    Just stating the fact that the number one topic of discussion is the heated for/against Bond dying. And as others have mentioned....you do come of as a very arrogant person. Please dial down the charm.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 579
    Thoughts about Bond's death: I have no issues with Bond dying, but the "Death of Bond" film should have been much better, I'm talking top 3 material. Also, it should have had a big connection to the Bond mythology. Bond being blown to pieces by rockets on a Japanese/Russian island seems pretty random. For starters, Bond should have died in Scotland, or even better, Jamaica. Now that I think about it, I wish Mendes refused to direct Bond 24 and instead returned to direct the "Death of Bond" film.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    incidentally, though i cannot of course speak for fleming? suspect he knew his creation would outlive him? Kingsley Amis was already lined up as editor and thereby successor in all but name? And fact is: Ian tried to kill 007 twice. Both occasions saw his and Bond's return. It never diminished the danger or thrills but did in effect set Bond on course for immortality and reinvention in new decades /eras; none of which depended on his being 'dead' in any: quite the opposite, in fact!

    As for the average viewer vs fans? IT IS THE FORMER GROUP who might be more annoyed by NTTD. They go to Bond for escapism, tropes, nostalgia and fun, albeit with VERY occasional punctuation films for 'the fans'. They will leave perhaps confused, annoyed and thinking Bond gone for good. Cue confusion, too, at any mooted reboot.

    I highly suspect average viewers won’t be that bothered. They’re not as hung up about Bond tropes as fans are.
  • Simon wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    At the same time, some of those fans imply that the ones that like this idea aren't true Bond fans.

    Can anyone care to explain to me what 'True Bond Fan' is? I personally took it that I am a Bond fan partly because out of 25 films, I thoroughly enjoy more than I don't, and to a degree other film series haven't yet come close to. No, I am not a fan of NTTD, or it's ending. If there is anyone else who also likes the films and does like NTTD, I'm not going to start lobbing dressed up digs at people insinuating or outright calling out people as 'Bad Fans'.

    Some people like it, some don't. I haven't posted regularly here since 2009 and got drawn back in a little on the back of seeing a piece of entertainment, and wanted to discuss the merits of the film. If I can get a heads up on if petty name calling and insinuation is just a post-NTTD phenomenon or the norm, I'd appreciate the info before sinking anymore time in.

    Edit: Nothing aimed specifically at matt_u here - that post was the most recently quotable with the term True Bond Fan in it.

    A few pages ago bondywondy and SpectreNumberTwo were suggesting that fans that accept the idea of depicting Bond’s death were not “true fans” and that ruffled a lot of feathers. That’s where that came from. Our mod Birdleson put a stop to that rhetoric.

    I refute your accusation, I think you interpreted some things your way, things may have been said direct at you & @matt_u because at the time I remember it got a bit heated on a personal basis on both sides and @Birdleson did in fact delete both our posts.

    I believe as I have said on numerous posts that everyone is entitled to their opinion & that we are all Bond fans or why the hell would we give this the time of day if we weren't, so stop ruffling feathers as you say & directing snidey comments that have no foundation at other contributors who don't share your view.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Zekidk wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    So after waiting six years and hype being built up the last three years, all we are left with is not a Bond 25 celebration, but a huge brawl about the death of James Bond. How sad.

    That's because BB and MGW made a funeral, not a celebration.
    Thought it was DC's call. My point is that I find it sad that they wanted the audience to leave the theatre in tears, rather with a smile on their face.

    They’ve done it once before: OHMSS.

    I’m sure everyone was all smiles leaving those screenings.

    “Boy, what a fun film! I totally did not see the bullet hitting Tracy’s forehead coming! Grand old time! Let’s go to the pub and get smashed!”
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 328
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    So after waiting six years and hype being built up the last three years, all we are left with is not a Bond 25 celebration, but a huge brawl about the death of James Bond. How sad.

    That's because BB and MGW made a funeral, not a celebration.

    You do realise that a funeral can also be a celebration, right?
    Personally, I wasn't initially happy that Bond died but I'm okay with it. I still think the film has issues and Bond could have saved himself but he decided to end his life on his own terms, while reconciling with his nearest and dearest. Nomi said at the start of the film that he has nothing to live for and that he's just killing time. He wasn't living, he was just existing. But with the "foxdie" virus stopping him from ever being with the ones he can live for, we can celebrate Bond saving the day and saving himself from the life of nothing and emptiness he would have lived without Madeleine and Mathilde. For Bond, there was no point in living....as he couldn't "feel alive" without them.

    When looking at it from this perspective, it makes narrative sense, even if I don't necessarily like it but I can respect it and see it as a bookend to the Craig era. The next Bond can now shift focus onto something less tragic.
  • TheQueensPeaceTheQueensPeace That's Classified
    edited October 2021 Posts: 74

    [/quote} I highly suspect average viewers won’t be that bothered. They’re not as hung up about Bond tropes as fans are.[/quote]

    On this? You are might be wrong, I am afraid! It's the 'fans' who will see imminent reboot as solution and death itself as tribute to rather than betrayal of character, lore, myth and actor etc.

    IMHO (above and below)

    The average non spoiler reading bloke? Or girl /someone in between, spoiler free? Who enjoys bank holiday bond fun and maybe took in Skyfall for Jubilee/Olympic spirit? They will be utterly flummoxed, gutted and maybe even angry!

    Also: what of KIDS who see this? And those with fragile mental health? Seriously. This will go down as a misfire. It will make all its money. It will sit in fan lore as a favourite, for sure and critics like it.

    But to person of unspecified gender on clapham omnibus back home from the cinema? It's not just Bond who died. It's possibly, the series..

  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    My frustration with this film is the unequivocal fact we witnessed Craig's Bond die, because it leaves no room for debate about the ending, it's conclusive.

    Unfortunately that will overshadow opinion on No Time To Die, and I'm surprised the producers didn't consider that when filming that particular ending
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    My frustration with this film is the unequivocal fact we witnessed Craig's Bond die, because it leaves no room for debate about the ending, it's conclusive.

    Unfortunately that will overshadow opinion on No Time To Die, and I'm surprised the producers didn't consider that when filming that particular ending

    I’m sure they did. They just had faith that most people would be accepting. It’s really only hardcore fans that are divided on it.
  • Posts: 1,394
    Here’s the Craig era of Bond all summed up.

    CR- Bond retires to settle down with the love of his life.
    QOS- Bond mopes about his lost love.Goes rogue.
    SF- Bond retires.Comes back and goes Rogue.
    SP- Bond goes rogue.Retires to settle down with the love of his life.
    NTTD- Bond retires permanently.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 3,276
    Zekidk wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    So after waiting six years and hype being built up the last three years, all we are left with is not a Bond 25 celebration, but a huge brawl about the death of James Bond. How sad.

    That's because BB and MGW made a funeral, not a celebration.
    Thought it was DC's call. My point is that I find it sad that they wanted the audience to leave the theatre in tears, rather with a smile on their face.

    They’ve done it once before: OHMSS.

    I’m sure everyone was all smiles leaving those screenings.
    But that was part of the Fleming canon, so fans pretty much saw it coming. Besides there's another huge difference: offing a character we have only seen in one movie, and the protagonist of the whole series.
    Jimjambond wrote: »
    lived without Madeleine and Mathilde.
    But he could. There are many ways he could have a life with them. That's actually my main gripe: he can't touch them, so there's no point in living? What!?!? He could live in the same house, as long as he doesn't touch them. Too risky? Use Facetime or Messenger. What kind of father doesn't want to see his kid grow up?
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 693
    matt_u wrote: »
    Just accept the fact that you hate the concept, and that's it. Because that's really it.

    Yes, I am. That's my point. People are allowed to be inherently against certain ideas on general principles. However, I still disagree about this being an inevitable conclusion to Craig's Bond. Are you saying that back when you first saw CR (or heck even Skyfall), that you knew this is how they'd end his tenure, that it couldn't possibly have any other conclusion? Really?

  • edited October 2021 Posts: 389
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Here’s the Craig era of Bond all summed up.

    CR- Bond retires to settle down with the love of his life.
    QOS- Bond mopes about his lost love.Goes rogue.
    SF- Bond retires.Comes back and goes Rogue.
    SP- Bond goes rogue.Retires to settle down with the love of his life.
    NTTD- Bond retires permanently.

    PERFECT >:)
  • Posts: 82
    Tell you what, kick back with a glass of something smooth, and stick on some John Barry. You’ll feel better in no time. All of you. It was extremely cheeky of them to use WHATTITW in NTTD but I envy their cojones.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Basically you're saying that Eon can do anything they want with the character and that if people fundamentally object to that, their opinions are invalid. So if they make a movie where Bond is an alien or a ghost, fans have to blindly accept it and justify their dislike of the movie on other grounds (acting, direction, etc).

    Nonsense. The death of a character is plausibele, an alien Bond isn't. Apples and oranges.

    Fans don't have to like it but they will accept it. The only alternative is the "entitled fan's" wet dream of having the producers do what he wants and that would be the end of cinema.
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    So after waiting six years and hype being built up the last three years, all we are left with is not a Bond 25 celebration, but a huge brawl about the death of James Bond. How sad.

    That's because BB and MGW made a funeral, not a celebration.
    There are 24 happy endings in this series for those who want one. Why all the anger over one ending that isn't the happiest? To call this a funeral is a gross exaggeration. This film keeps the tone fairly light for the most part.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Here’s the Craig era of Bond all summed up.

    CR- Bond retires to settle down with the love of his life.
    QOS- Bond mopes about his lost love.Goes rogue.
    SF- Bond retires.Comes back and goes Rogue.
    SP- Bond goes rogue.Retires to settle down with the love of his life.
    NTTD- Bond retires permanently.

    Not an accurate account.
    Zekidk wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    So after waiting six years and hype being built up the last three years, all we are left with is not a Bond 25 celebration, but a huge brawl about the death of James Bond. How sad.

    That's because BB and MGW made a funeral, not a celebration.
    Thought it was DC's call. My point is that I find it sad that they wanted the audience to leave the theatre in tears, rather with a smile on their face.

    They’ve done it once before: OHMSS.

    I’m sure everyone was all smiles leaving those screenings.
    But that was part of the Fleming canon, so fans pretty much saw it coming. Besides there's another huge difference: offing a character we have only seen in one movie, and the protagonist of the whole series.

    Stop shifting goal posts. You were talking about how audiences would react to downer endings, not fans of Fleming’s works.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    My frustration with this film is the unequivocal fact we witnessed Craig's Bond die, because it leaves no room for debate about the ending, it's conclusive.

    Unfortunately that will overshadow opinion on No Time To Die, and I'm surprised the producers didn't consider that when filming that particular ending

    I’m sure they did. They just had faith that most people would be accepting. It’s really only hardcore fans that are divided on it.

    That's true mate, but I'm surprised in how definitive it was
  • Posts: 3,276
    @MakeshiftPython
    Why mention OHMSS when the circumstances are very different, then?
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