Coronavirus Discussion

1235798

Comments

  • edited March 2020 Posts: 1,661
    Based on what I've read online - and you got be open minded about what how accurate things are online - season flu kills around 50 - 60,000 people per year. Coronavirus has killed just over 6,000 people. It's doubtful to exceed the flu's mortality rate. The rise is not fast enough? Looks that way. But seeing as there isn't a worldwide lockdown on seasonal flu, the reaction to coronavirus feels like hysteria fueled by fake news internet reporting.

    A so called expert was on UK Channel 4 news and compared coronavirus to the second world war. That war killed around 60 - 80 million people. The number of CR victims in the UK currently stands at 35 and world wide 6,600. To compare cr with the second world war shows you how hysteria has taken hold. We are living in crazy time where every negative news story is wildly exaggerated. Last year the news feeds were full of stories about impending world war three. No joke, many news agencies ran stories about war with China, North Korea, Russia. The current news reporting on cornavirus is identical to the fake news WW3 items from last year. Evidence:
    Why World War 3 could happen in 2019 – threats from North ...www.thesun.co.uk › news › world-war-3-north-korea-russia-trump
    ... testing have increased fears of a major military conflict breaking out in 2019. Here we look at trouble spots which could be potential World War 3 flash points. 8 ...

    When World War III Happens, It Will Start In One Of These 5 ...nationalinterest.org › blog › buzz › when-world-war-iii-happens-it-wi...
    12 Oct 2019 - When World War III Happens, It Will Start In One Of These 5 Places ... and 2018) what are the most dangerous flashpoints to watch in 2019?

    'It scares the hell out of me!': Chilling World War III warning ...metro.co.uk › News › Tech
    Thursday 12 Sep 2019 12:29 pm. World War III could erupt at any time and result in more deaths than any other conflict in human history. That's the chilling ...

    World War 3 MAP: The SIX places where WW3 could break outwww.express.co.uk › News › World
    28 Jan 2020 - WORLD WAR 3 fears were ignited across the globe just a few days into 2020. ... In 2019, Prime Minister Narendra Modi attempted to reduce the ...

    World War 3 news, predictions, date, coming, events | Express ...www.express.co.uk › latest › world-war-3
    World War 3, also known as the Third World War, refers to the next possible worldwide military conflict. Iran and the US, plus Russia and India have experienced ...

    'World War 3' interest spikes after US kills Iran's top general ...www.independent.co.uk › LIFE › Tech › News
    3 Jan 2020 - The phrase "World War 3" has seen a surge of popularity after the news that the US had killed Iran's top general. As news broke that the US had ...

    We live in dark times where news - fake or not - is exaggerated. The coronavirus is not a serious epidemic because the numbers are too low to warrant such a term. That's fact based on the stats. But the media want it to be an awful virus because they get more clicks, more readers, more viewers. Basically this virus is awful but the world we actually live in is worse! Full of people wanting to make the cr much worse than it is! Very few people can accept this.
  • Posts: 5,994

    Excellent! :))

    Whiskey was also the name of the horse in a western movie with young Schwarzenegger and Kirk Douglas.

    A very funny movie. And don't forget Ann Margret, who should have been a Bond Girl, but became a Helm Girl instead.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    fanbond123 wrote: »
    Based on what I've read online - and you got be open minded about what how accurate things are online - season flu kills around 50 - 60,000 people per year. Coronavirus has killed just over 6,000 people. It's doubtful to exceed the flu's mortality rate. The rise is not fast enough? Looks that way. But seeing as there isn't a worldwide lockdown on seasonal flu, the reaction to coronavirus feels like hysteria fueled by fake news internet reporting.

    A so called expert was on UK Channel 4 news and compared coronavirus to the second world war. That war killed around 60 - 80 million people. The number of CR victims in the UK currently stands at 35 and world wide 6,600. To compare cr with the second world war shows you how hysteria has taken hold. We are living in crazy time where every negative news story is wildly exaggerated. Last year the news feeds were full of stories about impending world war three. No joke, many news agencies ran stories about war with China, North Korea, Russia. The current news reporting on cornavirus is identical to the fake news WW3 items from last year. Evidence:
    Why World War 3 could happen in 2019 – threats from North ...www.thesun.co.uk › news › world-war-3-north-korea-russia-trump
    ... testing have increased fears of a major military conflict breaking out in 2019. Here we look at trouble spots which could be potential World War 3 flash points. 8 ...

    When World War III Happens, It Will Start In One Of These 5 ...nationalinterest.org › blog › buzz › when-world-war-iii-happens-it-wi...
    12 Oct 2019 - When World War III Happens, It Will Start In One Of These 5 Places ... and 2018) what are the most dangerous flashpoints to watch in 2019?

    'It scares the hell out of me!': Chilling World War III warning ...metro.co.uk › News › Tech
    Thursday 12 Sep 2019 12:29 pm. World War III could erupt at any time and result in more deaths than any other conflict in human history. That's the chilling ...

    World War 3 MAP: The SIX places where WW3 could break outwww.express.co.uk › News › World
    28 Jan 2020 - WORLD WAR 3 fears were ignited across the globe just a few days into 2020. ... In 2019, Prime Minister Narendra Modi attempted to reduce the ...

    World War 3 news, predictions, date, coming, events | Express ...www.express.co.uk › latest › world-war-3
    World War 3, also known as the Third World War, refers to the next possible worldwide military conflict. Iran and the US, plus Russia and India have experienced ...

    'World War 3' interest spikes after US kills Iran's top general ...www.independent.co.uk › LIFE › Tech › News
    3 Jan 2020 - The phrase "World War 3" has seen a surge of popularity after the news that the US had killed Iran's top general. As news broke that the US had ...

    We live in dark times where news - fake or not - is exaggerated. The coronavirus is not a serious epidemic because the numbers are too low to warrant such a term. That's fact based on the stats. But the media want it to be an awful virus because they get more clicks, more readers, more viewers. Basically this virus is awful but the world we actually live in is worse! Full of people wanting to make the cr much worse than it is! Very few people can accept this.

    You're obviously not understanding what is going on, here. The TV commentator aside, this is not being exaggerated. Please take a look at what happened to Italy when they did what you are doing right now: shrugging this off.

    COVID-19 would NOT be a serious matter if it weren't as contagious as it is--much more contagious than flu. And it would not be so dangerous if every nation had all of the ICU beds and respirators it needed--but it doesn't.

    Here in the U.S., we have about 100,000 ICU beds available at any one time, even fewer respirators. If COVID-19 spreads like crazy, and by all estimates 20% of those infected need to be in the ICU, that is a serious situation.

    RIGHT NOW the health care system is NOT strained, and that is why the mortality rate is so low. If/when the need for ICU beds exceeds availability, we could be looking at 5-6% mortality rate.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    Sorry for the double post, but this needs to be separate: the virus has hit the Bond family.

    Olga Kurylenko has it: https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/16/entertainment/olga-kurylenko-coronavirus/index.html
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    edited March 2020 Posts: 3,126
  • Posts: 9,847
    everything has been closed in Connecticut so yeah kind of sad I have no idea how I am gonna work out between now and then
  • Posts: 5,994
    Here, in my town, people have become crazy. I went to the local mall to do my after vacation shopping, and couldn't find a single loaf of sliced bread (my teeth, well what' left of them, don't allow me to eat anything else). I managed to find some ham, but barely. Milk started to be in short supply as well. In the small store near my home, same thing. I had to improvise, buying some crêpes, biscuits and a few loaf of rye bread. For the rest, everything is all right, I had filled my freezer and my pantry before leaving for vacations. But if as big a mall as this one is is completely out of the necessary, what of the rest ?

    Still, one good thing : I don't need to pay for my bus ticket anymore : the driver is separated from his passengers by a barrier (tape and a placard), and said passengers have to enter the bus by the rear door.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    edited March 2020 Posts: 9,040
    To a degree, same here (small town south of Hamburg). I went shopping today since I took a week off (originally because friends from the USA would come to visit, but they cancelled it last week - good decision!) and plan to cook every night for when my wife comes home. If she comes home, that is, since her job is occupational health and safety and she's sort of the coronavirus queen of her company right now. Anyway, I'm amazed why people stockpile toilet paper (not a single roll left in some shelves), cheap industrial flour (I bake with wholemeal anyway and grind my own grain), cheap rice and noodles and canned veggies and so on. Everybody - including the large retailers - is saying that there is no shortage in supplies and I'm sure there isn't, or wouldn't be unless such a number of people were stockpiling like crazy.
  • AgentJamesBond007AgentJamesBond007 Vesper’s grave
    Posts: 2,632
    Idris Elba tested positive for Coronavirus

  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited March 2020 Posts: 12,480
    Good we have a thread on this as it is affecting everybody.
    But it cannot keep politics out completely; that is such a key part of this.

    By the way, I just read that Idris Elba has tested positive for the virus. We will hear more and more public figures being positive for this virus, I'm sure.

    I'll just drop by to read a bit now and then. Yes, social distancing and proactive measures by local govts are important.

    I would self isolate if I could, but I cannot yet. I did quit one job, but I'm staying with my main job for now .. though I hope it shuts soon. I personally am well suited to stay at home, and I also live with two friends. So I wouldn't be without social interaction. The problem with that is if one of us gets the virus, we all get it - and I'm not quite 65 yrs old, and my friends are older than me. We are in a very vulnerable category.

    Good luck to all of us. I'm hoping and praying a genuinely safe and effective vaccine is produced in less than a year. I realize it would normally take longer. I appreciate that so many researchers/scientists are fervently working round the clock to make this a priority.

    Meanwhile, I try to enjoy each day, ordered more books and dvds from Amazon (that will help keep my spirits up), crank my music, and have rediscovered the joy of much lathered soap on my hands (I time out at well over 30 seconds) several times a day. :)

    And @DarthDimi, that is very good news to hear. It's an encouraging development. Anything to stop the dangerous consequences of this virus; vaccine or otherwise.

  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,131

    Very mixed messages
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    @4EverBonded
    I'm reading more and more relatively hopeful bits of news. It's probably not for next week or even next month, but the sooner, the better. Who knows, with an ounce of luck, ... It's not impossible, for sure. The right molecule can be found today, tomorrow, ... After that, it's technically just a matter of mass producing the stuff. And then we can only hope that everybody who needs it, will have access to it.
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    edited March 2020 Posts: 3,126
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @4EverBonded
    I'm reading more and more relatively hopeful bits of news. It's probably not for next week or even next month, but the sooner, the better. Who knows, with an ounce of luck, ... It's not impossible, for sure. The right molecule can be found today, tomorrow, ... After that, it's technically just a matter of mass producing the stuff. And then we can only hope that everybody who needs it, will have access to it.

    They say it still won't be out for at least a year if it was mass produced it's not that easy as you and I would think and I'm not being debbie downer. I'm just going off of what I hear from professionals including this guy on the radio today. Micheal Osterholm is an expert with alot of experience on diseases he has done it all it's worth listening to him if you haven't. He might scare you though here is him with the news.
  • edited March 2020 Posts: 12,837

    Very mixed messages

    Ohhh not at all, I could tell exactly what he's on about. Basically, they're backtracking on their initial plan, after the backlash and other experts saying it's a terrible idea. But of course, he can't enforce a lockdown. Because then his rich mates in the insurance companies will have to compensate businesses. So instead, he's "suggesting" they close, encouraging people to stay home, while not enforcing it. Nobody will go anywhere, why would you, but it means that all of the financial burden will be on the individuals. Small businesses will suffer greatly but at least his donors won't have to pay up.

    If I felt at all optimistic about the British public I'd say this would be the end of him but y'know what, I reckon he's going to come out of this a hero. The death toll will probably be higher than it otherwise would have done, thanks to his initial reluctance to act. A recession has always been all but guaranteed, but now thanks to putting off a lockdown businesses will suffer even more. But he'll still in the end be seen as the Churchill esque figure getting us through it. Summoning up our British Bulldog Blitz spirit and all that sentimental bollocks.

    To be honest I'm with @4EverBonded. I don't see how we can keep politics out of it when a lot of what's going to happen is being determined by how governments respond. And my government are being their usual vile Tory selves, so I'm pretty angry about it.

    This really is going to expose all the flaws in Tory Britain imo. The underfunded NHS will struggle. The people in poverty thanks to austerity will suffer even more. The dog eat dog capitalist mantra of the last decade will result in businesses going bust. Private hospitals are actually charging our NHS millions to rent them out. In Spain, they've requisitioned them. But we can't have anything like that in Tory Britain can we. And our statutory sickpay is a joke.

    But nothing will change. That's the sad part, there's 0 hope in my opinion. The wealthy elites will thrive as they always do. The rest of us plebs will suffer. And then they'll convince us to elect them again. I don't recognise the country I grew up in sometimes. I remember a time when there was at least solidarity amongst the working class. But now? We've become a nation of subservient peasants. On social media there's tons of comments blaming the businesses for staying open to keep their livelihoods. Not the government backing them into a corner and forcing them to. Because of course the Tories can do no wrong can they. They're on our side, even though history has shown time and time again that they never, ever are.

    This country has been a joke for the last few years, and thanks to that this virus is going to hit us hard. We'll get through it. We just need to keep calm and help eachother. But I think the predictable lack of help being afforded to us by our callous Tory government is going to mean it costs us more than it could have done under different circumstances.

    Delete this if you want mods but I do think politics play a large role in this, and I needed to get that off my chest.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,138
    We can and will keep politics out of this thread.
    Sadly when it comes to such things, politics, religion etc, it has been proven time and again that it doesn’t work.
    As I’ve said before. We can have a discussion about a global pandemic without politics entering into it.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited March 2020 Posts: 24,183
    Indeed. In essence, objective political facts can be referred to, of course. But we only have to make sure we don't end up grabbing at each other's throats over yet another Brexit vs EU, Trump, ... fight. That's not what this thread is for.

    We strongly believe that while this community is a James Bond fan community in the first place, there's also a valuable social dimension involved, which means that we can
    1. Feed each other information, because information is a powerful tool in fighting anything;
    2. We must, at all times, keep each other's kung-fu strong by maintaining an optimistic, courageous and very friendly attitude;
    3. Just talk and talk some more, because many of us will be virtually locked up in our houses for many weeks on end, and a friendly voice, even if coming from the other side of the globe, is always a welcome one.
    So let's not waste this thread on political cockfights. That's what @Benny is saying.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,040
    I find this TEDx talk quite sensible and comprehensive:

  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited March 2020 Posts: 25,131
    .
  • edited March 2020 Posts: 1,661
    There is a huge potential problem that few people are considering....

    What if coronavirus remains active, never goes away? Flu has never been eradicated, kills around 50 - 60 thousand people per year even with vaccines. Are we all going to remain in near permanent lock down, not going out much? That would be crazy.

    I think the governments of the world, WHO and other health authorties may have created an even bigger problem than cr! If the virus is still active in November what happens to all the delayed films? What happens to all the service industries that have had suffered during the spring and summer months? What happens to the airline industry, to the share prices of major corps? What happens to all the jobs that have been put on hold, all the salaries, all the people that need to keep working to pay their rent and mortgage?

    We're all playing with major fire here if the virus is not contained or in reverse after summer. At some point the travel bans will have to be lifted with or without coronavirus because the world economy cannot operate under such strict restrictions. For example, you can't expect Italians to remain under curfew for months. The reaction to coronavirus - even if it's well-intentioned - may turn out to be a catastrophic mistake. It might be better to leave cr alone, some people will die but others will be immune to it. Long term that makes more sense than the world economy collapsing due to crazy restrictions. People die from the flu - there is no world panic. We may have to adopt the same mindset with cornavirus if there is no dramatic fall in cases and no feasible vaccine.

    The best way forward is to drop all restrictions and invest in huge scanning machines at all airports, seaports and any other areas of entry. Every person entering a country has to have a cr scan and if they get the negative result they have to be put in self isolation. That makes more sense than long term travel bans and other restrictions.

    You cannot allow the service sector of a country to collapse. It will be catastrophic for hundreds or millions of people, their jobs, their mortgages/rent, their child care the list goes on and on. We live in a capitalist world. If you break that system you're screwed. We're playing with fire, folks. Forget coronavirus, the world economy might be at even greater risk. Hopefully this scenario won't happen but it's possible. Just pointing this out. I try to be brutally honest rather than just say what's politically correct. We all want the virus to end asap but we have to think of the longer term ramifications.
  • Posts: 9,847
    fanbond123 wrote: »
    There is a huge potential problem that few people are considering....

    What if coronavirus remains active, never goes away? Flu has never been eradicated, kills around 50 - 60 thousand people per year even with vaccines. Are we all going to remain in near permanent lock down, not going out much? That would be crazy.

    I think the governments of the world, WHO and other health authorties may have created an even bigger problem than cr! If the virus is still active in November what happens to all the delayed films? What happens to all the service industries that have had suffered during the spring and summer months? What happens to the airline industry, to the share prices of major corps? What happens to all the jobs that have been put on hold, all the salaries, all the people that need to keep working to pay their rent and mortgage?

    We're all playing with major fire here if the virus is not contained or in reverse after summer. At some point the travel bans will have to be lifted with or without coronavirus because the world economy cannot operate under such strict restrictions. For example, you can't expect Italians to remain under curfew for months. The reaction to coronavirus - even if it's well-intentioned - may turn out to be a catastrophic mistake. It might be better to leave cr alone, some people will die but others will be immune to it. Long term that makes more sense than the world economy collapsing due to crazy restrictions. People die from the flu - there is no world panic. We may have to adopt the same mindset with cornavirus if there is no dramatic fall in cases and no feasible vaccine.

    The best way forward is to drop all restrictions and invest in huge scanning machines at all airports, seaports and any other areas of entry. Every person entering a country has to have a cr scan and if they get the negative result they have to be put in self isolation. That makes more sense than long term travel bans and other restrictions.

    You cannot allow the service sector of a country to collapse. It will be catastrophic for hundreds or millions of people, their jobs, their mortgages/rent, their child care the list goes on and on. We live in a capitalist world. If you break that system you're screwed. We're playing with fire, folks. Forget coronavirus, the world economy might be at even greater risk. Hopefully this scenario won't happen but it's possible. Just pointing this out. I try to be brutally honest rather than just say what's politically correct. We all want the virus to end asap but we have to think of the longer term ramifications.

    this is true and scary
  • zebrafishzebrafish <°)))< in Octopussy's garden in the shade
    edited March 2020 Posts: 4,341
    fanbond123 wrote: »
    There is a huge potential problem that few people are considering....

    What if coronavirus remains active, never goes away? Flu has never been eradicated, kills around 50 - 60 thousand people per year even with vaccines. Are we all going to remain in near permanent lock down, not going out much? That would be crazy.

    I think the governments of the world, WHO and other health authorties may have created an even bigger problem than cr! If the virus is still active in November what happens to all the delayed films? What happens to all the service industries that have had suffered during the spring and summer months? What happens to the airline industry, to the share prices of major corps? What happens to all the jobs that have been put on hold, all the salaries, all the people that need to keep working to pay their rent and mortgage?

    We're all playing with major fire here if the virus is not contained or in reverse after summer. At some point the travel bans will have to be lifted with or without coronavirus because the world economy cannot operate under such strict restrictions. For example, you can't expect Italians to remain under curfew for months. The reaction to coronavirus - even if it's well-intentioned - may turn out to be a catastrophic mistake. It might be better to leave cr alone, some people will die but others will be immune to it. Long term that makes more sense than the world economy collapsing due to crazy restrictions. People die from the flu - there is no world panic. We may have to adopt the same mindset with cornavirus if there is no dramatic fall in cases and no feasible vaccine.

    The best way forward is to drop all restrictions and invest in huge scanning machines at all airports, seaports and any other areas of entry. Every person entering a country has to have a cr scan and if they get the negative result they have to be put in self isolation. That makes more sense than long term travel bans and other restrictions.

    You cannot allow the service sector of a country to collapse. It will be catastrophic for hundreds or millions of people, their jobs, their mortgages/rent, their child care the list goes on and on. We live in a capitalist world. If you break that system you're screwed. We're playing with fire, folks. Forget coronavirus, the world economy might be at even greater risk. Hopefully this scenario won't happen but it's possible. Just pointing this out. I try to be brutally honest rather than just say what's politically correct. We all want the virus to end asap but we have to think of the longer term ramifications.

    Panicking is not an option. Saving lives is more important than saving businesses. "Some people will die" should NOT be an option. There are thousands of young and middle aged people in our society with asthma and other diseases that are put at an unnecessary risk of dying from Covid-19. Without very severe restrictions, ICUs are full and they will be left alone without medical treatment.

    Where is the logic in dropping all restrictions? Scanning machines require a reliable quick-test, yet current quick tests (testing a blood drop from a finger tip) only are 33% reliable, i.e. 66% of people testing negative may still be sick. The reliable tests require a PCR protocol in a lab and take 24-48 hours. Virus spread is much faster than such an implementation, so the only option really is to shut down contact between people. Covid-19 has an estimated lethality of 1% if you get medical attention, or 6% if not. Letting the virus go on a rampage means in a few weeks hospital staff will have some tough choices of whom they still can take care of, and this will be the 6% scenario. You want to kill off 6% of your friends and family? In a global recession, many will suffer financially, but at least they are alive.
  • edited March 2020 Posts: 1,661
    File in the 'you couldn't make this up' folder:

    People queuing for toilet roll at a newly opened UK supermarket (according to The Daily Mail - the world's most honest newspaper - lol).

    26033212-8120729-Worried_shoppers_form_long_queues_ahead_of_the_opening_of_a_Cost-a-4_1584439504672.jpg

    I don't know if that is funny, sad, serious, bizarre. Kinda hard to know what reaction to have! :-O
  • Posts: 5,994
    Today at work, they gave me a paper to present to the gendarmes or policemn (not the same thing) in case they want to know what I'm doing at 5.30 in the morning. Yup, neither rain, nor corona virus must keep the mail to arrive at their intended destinations. Meanwhile, we have to maintain a safety distance of one meter with my colleagues at work. Oh, and I also received grief this morning with a driver who didn't understand that I have no longer the right to loan him my pen.
  • Posts: 1,661
    All cinemas in the UK closing due to cr. I guess the decision to delay NTTD turned out right. No cinema was going to show it anyway!

  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,551
    My work just shored up thanks to industry closures. I'll be finding (hopefully more than a quantum of) solace in Bond over the next little while. Thank goodness we have a lifetime worth of media to consume, and a great community to discuss things. :)
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    My work just shored up thanks to industry closures. I'll be finding (hopefully more than a quantum of) solace in Bond over the next little while. Thank goodness we have a lifetime worth of media to consume, and a great community to discuss things. :)

    Same here. I've been using the time to catch up on my Netflix Watch List back log. A Bondathon is surely next!
  • Posts: 5,994
    And another movie I was looking forward to cancelled :

    https://www.newsarama.com/49456-marvel-studios-black-widow-postponed-indefinitely-due-to-coronavirus-pandemic.html

    That's the fourth one now, after NTTD, Mulan and The New Mutants.
  • Gerard wrote: »
    And another movie I was looking forward to cancelled :

    https://www.newsarama.com/49456-marvel-studios-black-widow-postponed-indefinitely-due-to-coronavirus-pandemic.html

    That's the fourth one now, after NTTD, Mulan and The New Mutants.

    Theatres are going to be closed 6-8 weeks minimum. No theatre-> no movie..unless..
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,040
    Gerard wrote: »
    On the other hand, I only learned today from the newspaper reports that there is still "Big Brother" on German TV... Social distancing from precariat TV, I guess. (Disclaimer: I actually don't watch TV at all, with very occasional exceptions, like the World Cup or an election debate. Not even public channels.)
Sign In or Register to comment.