Coronavirus Discussion

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  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    Well, what can I say? Mideaval superstition, belief in divine creation, alien/ghost/illuminati theories, vaccines = witchcraft, ..., all of these are still with us. We're living in the 21st century yet some people haven't evolved all that much since the caveman's days. It's a lot easier to fool yourself than to think for yourself. Pretending that it's the Devil's work, that Putin did it, that "the Elite" want us all dead, ... seems to be the hip thing to do. Normally, I wouldn't care all that much. Let people do weird "karma" stuff in their backyard, have someone read their future in the cards, let them believe in angels, ... the rest of us will happily enjoy intellectual freedom instead. Unfortunately, we need everybody on board if we want to fight this virus, even the stupid lot. But the stupid lot believes the virus isn't real, or that "the corporations" are behind it, or that vaccines make you autistic. In some sense, this does feel like an evolutionary test.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,244
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Meanwhile, stupid students in my country are mardi gras'ing themselves through the nights, causing one corona disaster after the other. Pubs are overstuffed, youngsters do not maintain any distance. Is it wrong that I want these fools to suffer?

    Not in the slightest. I get a bit of satisfaction out of it, personally.

    Exactly. As I was walking home from work today, I passed a bunch of teens who were sharing beer bottles (at 4.15 PM!), vaping tools and a box of cookies. My look must have said, "wait, whut?" I mean, come the ef on! We're in about the worst state we've ever been in since March, and they're just screwing it up for the rest of us.

    They seem like the types who will shout endlessly about how fake the coronavirus is, only to finally take it seriously when they catch it themselves.

    Or like certain national leaders not learn a damn thing at all.

    We'll have to wait and see about that one. If they really stopped his treatment, the virus might be back wwith a vengeance within a couple of days. At least that's the pattern that's been seen before. And this guy does fit to some of the risk-groups criteria. I understand he's still got a 1 in 5 chance not to survive.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,244
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Well, what can I say? Mideaval superstition, belief in divine creation, alien/ghost/illuminati theories, vaccines = witchcraft, ..., all of these are still with us. We're living in the 21st century yet some people haven't evolved all that much since the caveman's days. It's a lot easier to fool yourself than to think for yourself. Pretending that it's the Devil's work, that Putin did it, that "the Elite" want us all dead, ... seems to be the hip thing to do. Normally, I wouldn't care all that much. Let people do weird "karma" stuff in their backyard, have someone read their future in the cards, let them believe in angels, ... the rest of us will happily enjoy intellectual freedom instead. Unfortunately, we need everybody on board if we want to fight this virus, even the stupid lot. But the stupid lot believes the virus isn't real, or that "the corporations" are behind it, or that vaccines make you autistic. In some sense, this does feel like an evolutionary test.

    In the mena time, I'm short-selling. Might as well make some money out of stupidity. We're up to 5000 new cases per day. On our way to 'The Netherlads Second' I suppose.
  • Posts: 5,989
    As you know, where I work, I'm forced to wear a mask. But this morning, I had the urge to throw it away, consequences be damned. Why, might you ask ? Well, I wear spectacles. Worn them since I was 7-8 years old, and my vision hasn't gotten better with age, far from it. And because of those smegging masks, and the temps early in the morning, my glasses were fogged. So, I couldn't see without them, but I also couldn't see with them on. So, I spent the beginning of my shift being almost blind, trying to find my way around (and getting it wrong one or two times), and wondering if all of that was really necessary. Plus of course the fact that wearing those frakking masks limit my oxygen intake. Ah well, next week, i'm going on vacation. Two weeks will be enough to replenish my body with oxygen. I hope.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    I agree, @Gerard, that the fogging of glasses is a damned annoying side-effect of wearing masks. However, masks don't limit oxygen intake; that feeling, which I assume we all have, is false. But again, I sympathise with your frustration.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,767
    @Gerard maybe you've already tried some remedies, I can repeat some to consider to prevent fogging of glasses. Hope you enjoy your vacation.
    • Wash the lenses with soapy water, shake them off, allow to dry. The soap film acts as an anti-fog layer. Or there are products for this available for purchase.
    • Use sports or medical tape across the top of the mask to prevent venting onto the eyeglasses.
    • Rest the eyeglasses on top of the mask to seal it, where there's enough material.
    • Use a mask with a wire sewn in, to mold it to the nose bridge.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited October 2020 Posts: 4,343
    I spent the last three days in isolation since a colleague of mine went to dinner with some friends and one tested positive. Luckily she’s now officially negative so I’m free. Smartworking is no longer an option, hopefully. Italy has 10.010 cases today so the spread is officially out of control. In 10 regions IC are already saturated, most in the center/south.
  • Posts: 5,989
    Here, in some regions, the governmtn has decided that a curfew, from 9 PM to 6 AM, was the way to go. Which means that I can no longer go to my stepdancing classes, at least for the duration. Because, of course, I live near Paris, and the whole Île de France is subject to this rule. Thankfully, Britanny isn't yet, so I'll be able to do whatever I want during my vacations there. Let's hope it stays that way.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    Belgium has issued several new rules too, including a curfew, all pubs and restaurants closed for a month and almost no people allowed at home. I'm glad something is done, but the curfew is just too bad. I loved my noctural walks... Ah well, for the greater good.
  • DarthDimi wrote: »
    Ah well, for the greater good.

    vlcsnap-2020-04-20-20h41m22s901_4zw4.png

  • Which is not to say I'm anti curfews, quarantine, or what have you. I just can't help myself whenever anyone mentions—THE GREATER GOOD!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Why do you accept house arrest, and that people tell you how many you can invite into your own home? You are of course free to accept whatever you like, but I would never let anyone dictate anything of the kind to me.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    Why do you accept house arrest, and that people tell you how many you can invite into your own home? You are of course free to accept whatever you like, but I would never let anyone dictate anything of the kind to me.

    Me too.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    I prefer to be part of the solution, rather than the problem.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,276
    Why do you accept house arrest, and that people tell you how many you can invite into your own home? You are of course free to accept whatever you like, but I would never let anyone dictate anything of the kind to me.

    For the safety of your fellow human beings.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    Many people seem to forget that "freedom" in an ideological sense works two ways: you are free, except when the freedom of others is threatened by yours. Staying home and restricting your immediate contacts helps others. It's not about what you want, it's about what you don't want to happen to others. The egotistical version of "my absolute freedom and screw everybody else's" is precisely why we're in this pandemic and why it's taking us so long to crawl back out of it. The Chinese are doing fine right now. Why? Because they understand that freedom is limited. We, however, don't seem to. And it doesn't help that the assinine notion of "Corona vs my freedom" is perpetuated by politicians with delusions of grandeur, moronic conspiracy theorists and 14-year olds who have nothing better to do. Having left Medieval times far behind us, one would assume that such problems wouldn't present themselves anymore, but alas. The rationale behind some folks' irresponsible behaviour is no better than when people who were lucky enough to heal from a disease were subsequently burnt as witches.

    People who want their freedom back, have to understand that such a thing simply won't happen if they continue to cling to their "absolute freedoms" while we're battling this pandemic. A year of sacrifice now, could result in many more of near-perfect freedom afterwards. It's a small price to pay.
  • ^Great post, Darth. =D>
  • I just can't help myself whenever anyone mentions—

    My trigger in this same fashion is "freedom."

    "Free is when you don't have to pay for nothing or do nothing; we want to be free! Free as the wind!" --Frank Zappa, "Teen Age Wind"

    (I'll put the obligatory song link in the General Music Thread where @Thundy can be sure to find it...)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Many people seem to forget that "freedom" in an ideological sense works two ways: you are free, except when the freedom of others is threatened by yours. Staying home and restricting your immediate contacts helps others. It's not about what you want, it's about what you don't want to happen to others. The egotistical version of "my absolute freedom and screw everybody else's" is precisely why we're in this pandemic and why it's taking us so long to crawl back out of it. The Chinese are doing fine right now. Why? Because they understand that freedom is limited. We, however, don't seem to. And it doesn't help that the assinine notion of "Corona vs my freedom" is perpetuated by politicians with delusions of grandeur, moronic conspiracy theorists and 14-year olds who have nothing better to do. Having left Medieval times far behind us, one would assume that such problems wouldn't present themselves anymore, but alas. The rationale behind some folks' irresponsible behaviour is no better than when people who were lucky enough to heal from a disease were subsequently burnt as witches.

    People who want their freedom back, have to understand that such a thing simply won't happen if they continue to cling to their "absolute freedoms" while we're battling this pandemic. A year of sacrifice now, could result in many more of near-perfect freedom afterwards. It's a small price to pay.

    Ironically, those same bozos who put others in danger always say "freedom isn't free". Perhaps they should apply that to this situation.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,546
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Many people seem to forget that "freedom" in an ideological sense works two ways: you are free, except when the freedom of others is threatened by yours. Staying home and restricting your immediate contacts helps others. It's not about what you want, it's about what you don't want to happen to others. The egotistical version of "my absolute freedom and screw everybody else's" is precisely why we're in this pandemic and why it's taking us so long to crawl back out of it. The Chinese are doing fine right now. Why? Because they understand that freedom is limited. We, however, don't seem to. And it doesn't help that the assinine notion of "Corona vs my freedom" is perpetuated by politicians with delusions of grandeur, moronic conspiracy theorists and 14-year olds who have nothing better to do. Having left Medieval times far behind us, one would assume that such problems wouldn't present themselves anymore, but alas. The rationale behind some folks' irresponsible behaviour is no better than when people who were lucky enough to heal from a disease were subsequently burnt as witches.

    People who want their freedom back, have to understand that such a thing simply won't happen if they continue to cling to their "absolute freedoms" while we're battling this pandemic. A year of sacrifice now, could result in many more of near-perfect freedom afterwards. It's a small price to pay.

    Well said. It’s astounding people who live in a society of humans believe in absolute freedoms over the health and well being of others. Here are some other freedoms the government has taken away from you for the exact same reason:
    Freedom to steal from whomever you want
    Freedom to murder
    Freedom to rape
    Freedom to drive without stopping at intersections
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited October 2020 Posts: 24,159
    Exactly. The West has corrupted itself by turning far too permissive. I notice such things at work every day. Tell a kid he did wrong, make him do some extra homework for punishment, and neither the kid nor his parents will accept it. They'll just flatout tell you it ain't happening and go ef yourself. What am I going to do? Laywer up? Call the headmaster and have her sort it out? No, because as soon as they said, "no", I lost the fight. You see, that's how we are living our lives these days. We simply say no.

    "Can you help me with-"
    "No."

    "You just bought yourself some detention, young man."
    "No. I didn't. Call my parents and see if they care."

    "Stay home as much as possible and don't meet up with people unless it's absolutely necessary."
    "No."

    During our first lockdown, the police had to shut down "corona parties" and fine people for violating the rules. Makes sense, right? Well, do you know how some people responded to that? "The cops are turning this country into a police state! They are fascist pigs!" Yeah, uh-uh, double negative on that. The cops are part of a system that is trying to prevent us from going from bad to even worse, they are part of a system of control. But that's an ugly word these days, isn't it? We don't want to be controlled. 'Cause then it's all about "Orwell's Big Brother society", about the "Illuminati", about secret cabals putting the chains on us and our thinking. Seriously? We're trying to fight a bloody virus that's killing more people than anyone could've imagined eight months ago. But social inertia prevents us from doing what should be done, unless experts and people in authority tell us what we can and cannot do. And we won't obey them, unless there's a system of punishment behind that. The sad part isn't that said system exists, but that our inability to cooperate necessitates its existence.

    Nearly everything bad that's going on at this point in the pandemic, we entirely owe to ourselves and our paradoxical quest for freedom, paradoxical in the sense that the more we break the rules now for a semblance of freedom, the longer it'll take to get the actual thing back and the higher the death toll.
  • Posts: 6,709
    Very good posts, @DarthDimi. All true.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,244
    Well said @DarthDimi, as usual.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Many people seem to forget that "freedom" in an ideological sense works two ways: you are free, except when the freedom of others is threatened by yours. Staying home and restricting your immediate contacts helps others. It's not about what you want, it's about what you don't want to happen to others. The egotistical version of "my absolute freedom and screw everybody else's" is precisely why we're in this pandemic and why it's taking us so long to crawl back out of it. The Chinese are doing fine right now. Why? Because they understand that freedom is limited. We, however, don't seem to. And it doesn't help that the assinine notion of "Corona vs my freedom" is perpetuated by politicians with delusions of grandeur, moronic conspiracy theorists and 14-year olds who have nothing better to do. Having left Medieval times far behind us, one would assume that such problems wouldn't present themselves anymore, but alas. The rationale behind some folks' irresponsible behaviour is no better than when people who were lucky enough to heal from a disease were subsequently burnt as witches.

    People who want their freedom back, have to understand that such a thing simply won't happen if they continue to cling to their "absolute freedoms" while we're battling this pandemic. A year of sacrifice now, could result in many more of near-perfect freedom afterwards. It's a small price to pay.

    Well said. It’s astounding people who live in a society of humans believe in absolute freedoms over the health and well being of others. Here are some other freedoms the government has taken away from you for the exact same reason:
    Freedom to steal from whomever you want
    Freedom to murder
    Freedom to rape
    Freedom to drive without stopping at intersections

    Walking outside after a certain hour, or poeople meeting friends in their own homes is not, in my opinion, equal to rape and murder. It is this type of unfounded superstition that poses the real threat to other people. It is an unacceptable attitude.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,244
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Many people seem to forget that "freedom" in an ideological sense works two ways: you are free, except when the freedom of others is threatened by yours. Staying home and restricting your immediate contacts helps others. It's not about what you want, it's about what you don't want to happen to others. The egotistical version of "my absolute freedom and screw everybody else's" is precisely why we're in this pandemic and why it's taking us so long to crawl back out of it. The Chinese are doing fine right now. Why? Because they understand that freedom is limited. We, however, don't seem to. And it doesn't help that the assinine notion of "Corona vs my freedom" is perpetuated by politicians with delusions of grandeur, moronic conspiracy theorists and 14-year olds who have nothing better to do. Having left Medieval times far behind us, one would assume that such problems wouldn't present themselves anymore, but alas. The rationale behind some folks' irresponsible behaviour is no better than when people who were lucky enough to heal from a disease were subsequently burnt as witches.

    People who want their freedom back, have to understand that such a thing simply won't happen if they continue to cling to their "absolute freedoms" while we're battling this pandemic. A year of sacrifice now, could result in many more of near-perfect freedom afterwards. It's a small price to pay.

    Well said. It’s astounding people who live in a society of humans believe in absolute freedoms over the health and well being of others. Here are some other freedoms the government has taken away from you for the exact same reason:
    Freedom to steal from whomever you want
    Freedom to murder
    Freedom to rape
    Freedom to drive without stopping at intersections

    Walking outside after a certain hour, or poeople meeting friends in their own homes is not, in my opinion, equal to rape and murder. It is this type of unfounded superstition that poses the real threat to other people. It is an unacceptable attitude.

    Until you happen to have corona (even though you don't show symptoms), or one of your friends does, and one of them has diabetes and dies because of it.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    Walking outside isn't a problem. Walking outside as groups of people who can't maintain distance, is. You can say that one is allowed, but no more. Then, still, if you walk outside at night, all alone, it's perfectly possible that you are going to visit people or clandestine parties, or that you have. And after a certain hour, people tend to get drunk and 'forget' many of our sanitary rules. By keeping people off the streets at night, many will also be discouraged from doing such stupid things. It's an effective rule. And one that wouldn't have been invoked if violations of the kind I just described hadn't been committed yet, and rather frequently at that.

    Please don't forget that several of the rules we have now, were imposed on us because stupid people sought creative ways of violating the few simple and effective ones we had first. Complain all you want, but politicians aren't after your freedom; they're after the virus. They don't like this any more than we do, because this is costing the states a lot of money. The ones you should be complaining to are those who refuse to put even a small effort into this battle, those who pretend it's not real, or who complain about their freedom.

    The point is not that these are quite as bad as rape or murder, but that some "freedoms" have to be restricted if we want to fight a common enemy.

    And superstition? Really? You want to talk about superstition? Okay, talk to all those morons out there who believe this pandemic is an act of their oh-so benevolent god and that we don't need to wear mouthmasks but, instead, pray; and that science isn't to be trusted, but a senile old geezer is.

    If a few simple rules with which we can effectively fight the pandemic are met with such stubborn opposition, what hopes do we have of stopping global warming, people? How is this possible? Yeah, a lockdown is unpleasant. Deal with it, grow a pair and deal with it. Don't cry about bad men restricting your precious freedoms. Stop acting like the kid in the candy store who can have some sweets, but not all. Be part of the solution, not of the problem. Your freedoms will come back to you. Maybe. It'll all depend on how stubbornly people will continue to cling to their many precious luxury entitlements.
  • Posts: 4,603
    Darth is pretty much spot on. We have seen the growing "culture of me" over the last few decades. Re-enforced by social media where "me" seems to be the topic of choice for many users. And, of course, further re-enforced by ellements of capitalism/consumerism which encourages the idea of "me" (what's the shampoo phrases "because you are worth it"). People tend to judge freedom in terms of their own, individual freedom rather than a more complex form of freedom that exists within a community. We seem to only be able to judge "in the first person".

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    patb wrote: »
    Darth is pretty much spot on. We have seen the growing "culture of me" over the last few decades. Re-enforced by social media where "me" seems to be the topic of choice for many users. And, of course, further re-enforced by ellements of capitalism/consumerism which encourages the idea of "me" (what's the shampoo phrases "because you are worth it"). People tend to judge freedom in terms of their own, individual freedom rather than a more complex form of freedom that exists within a community. We seem to only be able to judge "in the first person".

    Better put than I possibly could have.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,108
    Very eloquently put @DarthDimi and @patb. Couldn't have said it better myself.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,019
    Once again (though I probably quoted this before, but haven't found that post), let me quote Paul Krugman in an NYT opinion piece about the "anti-coronavirus" (in fact, anti-protection matters) protesters: "What they call “freedom” is actually absence of responsibility."
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