Coronavirus Discussion

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  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    Great news. Now, everybody else. :)
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    A 90-year UK woman becomes the first in the world to receive a COVID-19 vaccine outside of trial

    Margaret Keenan, 90, from Enniskillen, Northern Ireland, became the first person in the world to receive the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine outside of a clinical trial, marking the start of the UK’s mass vaccination programme.

    Nothing has been peer reviewed, so this is still a trial.
  • Posts: 5,990
    Her most gracious Majesty queen Elizabeth the Second has decided to follow the example set by french king Louis XVI (who was the first monarch to get vaccinated against smallpox, which had killed his grandfather Louis XV) in getting vaccinated against CoVid. My hat off to you, Your Majesty.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,277
    A 90-year UK woman becomes the first in the world to receive a COVID-19 vaccine outside of trial

    Margaret Keenan, 90, from Enniskillen, Northern Ireland, became the first person in the world to receive the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine outside of a clinical trial, marking the start of the UK’s mass vaccination programme.

    Nothing has been peer reviewed, so this is still a trial.

    Fake news.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    echo wrote: »
    A 90-year UK woman becomes the first in the world to receive a COVID-19 vaccine outside of trial

    Margaret Keenan, 90, from Enniskillen, Northern Ireland, became the first person in the world to receive the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine outside of a clinical trial, marking the start of the UK’s mass vaccination programme.

    Nothing has been peer reviewed, so this is still a trial.

    Fake news.

    Where have the clinical data been published?

    After recently changing the law, the company has also been given indemnity from lawsuits, just as all the big pharmaceutical companies already have in the US since the 80s. Tax payers money is available for that instead.
  • 007InAction007InAction Australia
    Posts: 2,516
    The vaccine is unproven.
    Who knows how effective it is and how long it lasts ?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    I'm curious. Why are people so afraid of vaccines? What side effects are they worried about? We receive a bit of RNA from the virus, nothing more. Our body will produce antibodies in response. This isn't some strange chemical that might, after a long time, prove chronically toxic or teratogenic.
  • edited December 2020 Posts: 7,507
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I'm curious. Why are people so afraid of vaccines? What side effects are they worried about? We receive a bit of RNA from the virus, nothing more. Our body will produce antibodies in response. This isn't some strange chemical that might, after a long time, prove chronically toxic or teratogenic.

    There were in fact a couple of issues with the swine flu vaccine a couple of years ago. It was also issued early and gave a couple of patients som long lasting side effects, mainly tiredness and lack of energy that negatively effected their working lives. So although the general scepticism to vaccines is pretty daft, concerns about a vaccine that has not gone through all stages of testing is not that unreasonable. My father happens to be a professor in medicine, and I asked him the other day whether he would take the vaccine right now if given the chance. He said he was unsure and that it would be a difficult decision to make.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited December 2020 Posts: 24,159
    Fair enough, @jobo, but don't you agree that there's a vast difference between a few minor side effects reported in a small fraction of the population (which is always the case) versus the total poison some seem to worry it might (conspiratorily be engineered to) be?

    I take it most of us have our driver's licence and put it to good use. But is a car safe? Let me tell you, the "peer review" doesn't look so good. Still far too many people die in traffic accidents. Yet when has that ever stopped us from getting behind the wheel, sometimes tired and completely unfocused, sometimes totally stressed and boiling with rage, in bad weather or poor visibility conditions? Never. Has an aeroplane accident ever stopped those millions from flying, for pleasure no less? No! Do threats of cancer keep all people from drinking and smoking? No. "Hey, you, smoking will almost certainly kill you!" "Yeah, whatever, I'm good... *Fills lungs with deeply inhaled cigarette smoke.*"

    Yet I'm willing to bet that one reported case of a Corona vaccine doing bad to a person will suffice to discourage millions from taking one themselves. Yet we need enough vaccinated folks to keep this pandemic under control since nothing else seems to work in the me-world called "the West". I understand the fear and I understand the reasoning. All I'm saying is: some people's assessment of the risks with these Corona vaccines is disproportional to the many death-risks they are perfectly happy to take on a daily basis.

    Yes, I'm willing to accept a certain risk of one of those vaccines having unfortunate side-effects in my body. The risks I'm taking when driving to work in rush hour or when eating fish a subscribed two times a week (mercury poisoning?) are comparatively much greater. Long-term side effects are, indeed, a big unknown in this entire affair, I will concede that much. But it's not unreasonable to assume that we will be fine. It is, however, completely certain that we won't be if we continue on like this, with this pandemic running amok everywhere.
  • Posts: 7,507
    @DarthDimi

    I didn't have time to read all of it, but I agree with the general gist. Those who are extra vulnerable to the disease should definitely vaccinate as soon as possible! For the rest of us, we will most likely not get the chance for several months anyway when we will know more about how it works in practice.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,244
    The vaccine is unproven.
    Who knows how effective it is and how long it lasts ?

    From the test results, around 90 to 97%. That's why they do the tests. How long it lasts nobody nows. That's the problem with long-term testing, you can't do it in a week or two.

    @DarthDimi if you ask me why people react like this, I think it has something to do with our safe and cozy lives. We just don't know danger anymore and humans are quite bad at adjusting to a new situation from a cozy startingpoint. That's why we design our world as safe as possible. And virusses are invisible, so they don't exist. Ghosts, on the other hand, you can sometimes see..... etc. etc.

    Our ancestors were confronted by death just about every other day. Families were big only to makes sure enough offspring managed to live into adulthood to do the same thing all over. It's interesting to read letters from the 17th century, whre people wrote things like 'aunt mary sadly passed way last week. Just like her sister a year ago she had maningitis. How are you and the family? Has little jack recovered?" etc. etc.

    https://kloptdatwel.nl/2020/12/02/retraction-paper-pcr/

    I hope your Dutch is good enough.
  • SuperintendentSuperintendent A separate pool. For sharks, no less.
    Posts: 871
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I'm curious. Why are people so afraid of vaccines? What side effects are they worried about? We receive a bit of RNA from the virus, nothing more. Our body will produce antibodies in response. This isn't some strange chemical that might, after a long time, prove chronically toxic or teratogenic.

    Fear is subjective. Some people are afraid of going to the dentist or having their blood taken.

    People with 'significant' allergic reactions urged not to have Covid vaccine

    Being categorically against vaccines is one thing, being concerned about something new is another. Those who equate the two are of the same mindset as anti-vaxxers.



  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    All I'm saying is: some people's assessment of the risks with these Corona vaccines is disproportional to the many death-risks they are perfectly happy to take on a daily basis.
    Mr. Spock would approve of your logic, sir.
  • 007InAction007InAction Australia
    edited December 2020 Posts: 2,516
    jobo wrote: »
    @DarthDimi

    I didn't have time to read all of it, but I agree with the general gist. Those who are extra vulnerable to the disease should definitely vaccinate as soon as possible! For the rest of us, we will most likely not get the chance for several months anyway when we will know more about how it works in practice.

    The elderly and health workers are the first ones to get a vaccine apparently so most of us will have to wait much longer.

    Also the richer countries will get it faster than the poorer countries as usual i'm afraid.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    chrisisall wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    All I'm saying is: some people's assessment of the risks with these Corona vaccines is disproportional to the many death-risks they are perfectly happy to take on a daily basis.
    Mr. Spock would approve of your logic, sir.

    Aren t both of you terrified of this virus? How does that fit in ?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    I'm terrified of the virus, yes, as we should all be.
    But these corona vaccines aren't going to, well, give you covid-19.
  • A 90-year UK woman becomes the first in the world to receive a COVID-19 vaccine outside of trial

    Margaret Keenan, 90, from Enniskillen, Northern Ireland, became the first person in the world to receive the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine outside of a clinical trial, marking the start of the UK’s mass vaccination programme.
    Already, here in the States, supporters of a certain politician known for wearing orange face paint are claiming on social media that Mrs. Keenan -- and her vaccination -- are fake. She's a "crisis actor", they say.

    God help us all.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    chrisisall wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    All I'm saying is: some people's assessment of the risks with these Corona vaccines is disproportional to the many death-risks they are perfectly happy to take on a daily basis.
    Mr. Spock would approve of your logic, sir.

    Aren t both of you terrified of this virus? How does that fit in ?
    I'm terrified this virus might kill those I love. Personally, I'm not *that* afraid of it. Be that as it may, I have way more chance of dying in an automobile accident than having severe complications from a Covid vaccine.... bring it.

  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,546
    chrisisall wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    All I'm saying is: some people's assessment of the risks with these Corona vaccines is disproportional to the many death-risks they are perfectly happy to take on a daily basis.
    Mr. Spock would approve of your logic, sir.

    Aren t both of you terrified of this virus? How does that fit in ?
    I'm terrified this virus might kill those I love. Personally, I'm not *that* afraid of it. Be that as it may, I have way more chance of dying in an automobile accident than having severe complications from a Covid vaccine.... bring it.

    I think "terrified" is also the wrong word for it; fear comes from misunderstanding, and there is a lot we understand about the virus, as well as lot we understand about how it travels, and how we can prevent it from travelling among people.

    You don't have to be terrified of the virus to know how important it is to take the necessary precautions in order to prevent it spreading.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,244
    One of my direct collegues has fallen ill. I'm quite impressed as what the virus can do to someone who's generally very healthy, and not old at all. But I guess that for the likes of @Thunderfinger it only counts when you die.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489


    https://aaqr.org/articles/aaqr-20-07-covid-0403
    One of my direct collegues has fallen ill. I'm quite impressed as what the virus can do to someone who's generally very healthy, and not old at all. But I guess that for the likes of @Thunderfinger it only counts when you die.

    Why do you say that?
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,244

    https://aaqr.org/articles/aaqr-20-07-covid-0403
    One of my direct collegues has fallen ill. I'm quite impressed as what the virus can do to someone who's generally very healthy, and not old at all. But I guess that for the likes of @Thunderfinger it only counts when you die.

    Why do you say that?

    Because you've consistently posted links to articles that either downplayed the impact of the virus, or of the measures taken by government bodies. Links, too, that were easily debunked with a very quick search on google. The latest beeing an article in which was stated that the testing method was faulty. Signed by 'doctors' whom either were no doctor in the first place, or admitted to know absolutely nothing of virology (as, i.e. a neuro-surgeon).
    It gives the feeling that you don't take this whole affair serious in the first place. Either that, or you just don't know how to check sources. In that case I apaologise. As someone working in information management i may have some presumptions on checking information before one shares it.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489

    https://aaqr.org/articles/aaqr-20-07-covid-0403
    One of my direct collegues has fallen ill. I'm quite impressed as what the virus can do to someone who's generally very healthy, and not old at all. But I guess that for the likes of @Thunderfinger it only counts when you die.

    Why do you say that?

    Because you've consistently posted links to articles that either downplayed the impact of the virus, or of the measures taken by government bodies. Links, too, that were easily debunked with a very quick search on google. The latest beeing an article in which was stated that the testing method was faulty. Signed by 'doctors' whom either were no doctor in the first place, or admitted to know absolutely nothing of virology (as, i.e. a neuro-surgeon).
    It gives the feeling that you don't take this whole affair serious in the first place. Either that, or you just don't know how to check sources. In that case I apaologise. As someone working in information management i may have some presumptions on checking information before one shares it.

    You obviously don t know what you re talking about.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited December 2020 Posts: 7,546

    https://aaqr.org/articles/aaqr-20-07-covid-0403
    One of my direct collegues has fallen ill. I'm quite impressed as what the virus can do to someone who's generally very healthy, and not old at all. But I guess that for the likes of @Thunderfinger it only counts when you die.

    Why do you say that?

    Because you've consistently posted links to articles that either downplayed the impact of the virus, or of the measures taken by government bodies. Links, too, that were easily debunked with a very quick search on google. The latest beeing an article in which was stated that the testing method was faulty. Signed by 'doctors' whom either were no doctor in the first place, or admitted to know absolutely nothing of virology (as, i.e. a neuro-surgeon).
    It gives the feeling that you don't take this whole affair serious in the first place. Either that, or you just don't know how to check sources. In that case I apaologise. As someone working in information management i may have some presumptions on checking information before one shares it.

    You obviously don t know what you re talking about.

    That's rich. What the commander said about auditing your sources is 100% correct. You say others have 'no idea what they're talking about' because your "argument" hasn't got a leg to stand on.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Compare this
    https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2020/10/07/covid-19-to-add-as-many-as-150-million-extreme-poor-by-2021

    to this
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qLbVmE3QyBh06GFFYkUv7eEWvz8DInZam4dx5vyLtT8/edit#gid=1259834744
    American counterpart to the Belgian and Dutch letters.

    https://gbdeclaration.org/

    Good to see the Russians are up to their usual antics.

    Your source for this amazing conspiracy theory?
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    edited December 2020 Posts: 8,244
    Thank you for proving my point. Comparing a list of rich people to a news report about poor people leaves us... where? That Piketty's ideas are accelerated by the pandemic?
    American counterpart to the Belgian and Dutch letters.

    https://gbdeclaration.org/

    Good to see the Russians are up to their usual antics.

    Your source for this amazing conspiracy theory?

    Just check the list of names. Plenty of Russians to be found.

    And on your amazing declaration, first, it's written by an institute for ECONOMICS. Obviously, the experts to go to for a pandemic. Second, if even Wikipedia says it's unethical and dangerous, then you might be a bit careful sharing those statements.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Barrington_Declaration

    On the home ront, we're welcoming the next complete lockdown of the year! Up until 19th of januari.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    Italy has reached the highest number of deaths for COVID-19 in Europe. Plus, it’s suffering the highest domestic product decrease in all UE. At this point I’m pretty sure it’s gonna be the last to start the vaccination campaign.
  • edited December 2020 Posts: 2,264
    I think that even when people do start getting vaccinated, normality isn’t going to be happening right away, particularly here in the US. I still see mask mandates and lockdown precautions happening for at least another 3-6 months.
  • 007InAction007InAction Australia
    Posts: 2,516
    matt_u wrote: »
    Italy has reached the highest number of deaths for COVID-19 in Europe. Plus, it’s suffering the highest domestic product decrease in all UE. At this point I’m pretty sure it’s gonna be the last to start the vaccination campaign.

    The poorer countries i'm afraid will get it last unlike countries like the usa,australia,canada etc
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