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NEW 2021 UPDATES ON 'Quick Big Mi6 Bond Ranking Game': JOIN IN, FOLKS!

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  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,179
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Not ashamed to admit it was me who has it at 24!

    Bless you, @Mathis1! Like many I'm fond of it for sentimental reasons but I thoroughly enjoyed your dissection of its many, many faults.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited April 2021 Posts: 1,711
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Another example, I have seen instances where Star Wars fans are very critical of the early entries. Do they really think any of those films aside from STAR WARS or THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK could have kicked off the franchise and garnered any mass appeal? No, because those original films were made for audiences, not the fan base. They weren't stuck on ticking off boxes and showing a desperation to tie up continuity, and wasting screen time giving lip service to esoteric fan minutia.

    That is what separates the '60s STAR TREK from all of the later attempts. It was just a great show, it had no interest in referencing itself or appealing to any fanbase.

    Great post. Though I do think Bond, at least through the Cubby/Harry and Cubby eras, avoided the problem of appealing too hard to the base.

    Star Trek though, great example. I don't have any time for anything that isn't the original series, and not out of nostalgia--I came to it in my mid-thirties. But the phenomenon you describe couldn't be clearer. Or Star Wars, my god. I love the originals (and prequels!), but that franchise kind of began the journey up its own ass as early as Empire. If you went back in time to 1977 and showed someone the end of the "Skywalker Saga", they would certainly be baffled that the series would reach a point like that.

    I think franchise movies sometimes get to a point where they're not only competing with other movies, and they're not only competing with their own most recent movie, they're competing with people's memories of every single highlight of the franchise as a whole up to that point. And then the bloat sets in....and the self-references.
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 7,520
    Agent_99 wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Not ashamed to admit it was me who has it at 24!

    Bless you, @Mathis1! Like many I'm fond of it for sentimental reasons but I thoroughly enjoyed your dissection of its many, many faults.

    Cheers, Agent_99!
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited April 2021 Posts: 7,162
    @Mathis1 will be delighted this next one narrowly defeated GE. Nowhere on the internet gets our number 5 as much love as on these boards, it's an Mi6 Community favourite.

    STARRING
    Timothy Dalton as James Bond 007

    WITH
    Maryam d'Abo, Joe Don Baker, Jeroen Krabbé & Andreas Wisniewski

    THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS

    MUSIC BY John Barry
    DIRECTED BY John Glen

    Bollinger_THELIVINGDAYLIGHT.gif

    TLD collected 1st place, two 2nd places, three 3rd places, two 4th places and two 5th places. It ended up in nine more top 10's. No less than five members ranked it 9th.

    Looking at the bottom 5's, only one 22nd spot was noted.

    TLD received 187 points in total.

    That's the same as GE, but it wins the toss-up by virtue of one more top 10 spot. Both Dalton's films were involved in a toss-up, this time Tim comes out as the winner.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,152
    I’ve currently got it 6th, but a top 5 finish is more than welcome for me. A stunning Bond film, amazing debut from Dalton. A tonal shift after the Moore era. I’ve loved TLD since 1987. It will likely remain a top 10 Bond film for many years to come.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,219
    Yes, this is one of the greats. Dalton refuels the series with his energy and cool menace. The film has one of the best scores ever, combined with awesome sets and very good action. The chemistry between Bond and Kara ranks among the very best "romances" in the series. This film is the reason I'm a fierce Daltonite.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,152
    Three of those remaining are in my top four. So quite happy.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,223
    The top six are my top six, so I'm very happy with how this has gone! :)
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Three of the remaining are in my bottom ten, so my preferences obviously diverge from most of the forum! Hoping for OHMSS to come out on top!

    Pleased to see TLD reach such a height though. It's not my absolute favorite, but if I wanted a Bond movie to serve as a template for future films, that'd be the one.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,152
    My guess for the final four.
    4th GF
    3rd OHMSS
    2nd CR
    1st FRWL
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I was the one who ranked it 22nd. There are some truly magnificent sequences here, such as the pts, sniper scene and the showdown with Whitaker, but so much of it is utterly unengaging.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,219
    Three of my personal top 5 films are still in the running, so I'm truly pleased as well.
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 7,520
    Ah, here we differ Thunderfinger!
    Loved it when I saw it first in that Summer of '87!
    Even more now! Dalton is magnificent and its a really first class Bond thriller. So many great scenes and set pieces, top notch cast and last John Barry score! Delighted so much affection for it here! Am hoping OHMSS has the top spot, but have a feeling its going to be FRWL, which I woukd still be happy with!
  • SomethingThatAteHimSomethingThatAteHim
    Posts: 532
    TLD is #4 for me. Love the romantic sweep of the film, it almost feels like a Bond impression of a David Lean film at times, and Dalton brings a jaded, world weary tale on Bond that hadn’t been done before. I can stomach the overly convoluted plot, and the baggy third act, but it’s a real shame that *both* main villains are very weak. At least we got Necros’ milkman assault out of it. Also very satisfying to me that John Barry’s swan song for the series is arguably his best.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    I had GE at 8 and TLD at 7 so the results have been pretty close to my own rankings, just slightly higher.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,162
    Needless to say I love TLD to bits. Film posters of this one overlook both my dinner table as well as my bed, so yeh I really love it.

    Agree with you on the David Lean vibes @SomethingThatAteHim. The last third in Afghanistan is as epic as Bond gets for me. The desert sunset with Barry's drums playing in the background. Love it.

    Personally I have always liked Whitaker and especially Koskov. Sure they're no Goldfingers or Scaramanga's but I honestly don't need that every film. Sometimes a more grounded villain suits the film fine and I can really picture those two slimeballs in a Fleming story too, to be honest.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    I was the one who ranked it 22nd. There are some truly magnificent sequences here, such as the pts, sniper scene and the showdown with Whitaker, but so much of it is utterly unengaging.

    That’s how I feel about everything that happens once they head to the Middle East. Except for the show down with Whitaker, I also like that. Aside from the snow scene and the rooftop chase, I pretty much love the first half.

    I see eye to eye with you there.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,619
    TLD #3 for me. A cracking entry. Best sniper scene and best interrogation scene (Pushkin) in the series. PTS, Blayden attack, thanking Saunders at the Prater cafe etc... so much quality here.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Birdleson wrote: »
    And it contains one of the best PTSs in the series. I have a friend who is a retried film critic and teacher (still gets me screeners!) who would use it in class, when teaching cinematography and editing. In that PTS, Glen and cinematographer Alec Mills, utilize near every major type of framing shot, tracking shot and pan, and exhibit magnificent visual storytelling through flawless, classic, textbook editing. Because it's in a Bond film, you don't see it mentioned in that capacity often, or, more likely, at all. But the TLD PTS can stand tall next to any piece of editing that is out there.

    I often use a scene from FRWL in my Advanced Multimedia class. Any guess as to what that would be? Not the fight on the train, which would seem the obvious choice.

    Is it the scene where Blofeld briefs his underlings while feeding his fish?
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited April 2021 Posts: 14,619
    That has to be it, when Klebb's movement is reversed to fit the scene.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,219
    QBranch wrote: »
    TLD #3 for me. A cracking entry. Best sniper scene and best interrogation scene (Pushkin) in the series. PTS, Blayden attack, thanking Saunders at the Prater cafe etc... so much quality here.

    "On your feet, general."

    Dalton is awesome in that scene!

    I don't understand the issues people have with the Afghan scenes. Lots of cool moments, epic Barry score, phenomenal use of the plane (unlike, say, DAD), I love the bridge explosion, the fight with Nekros and the aerial stunts... My only beef with the film is John Terry's Felix.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,219
    Birdleson wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    That has to be it, when Klebb's movement is reversed to fit the scene.

    No, it's the rendezvous with Tatiana on the deck of the ship. Excellent and subtle storytelling. They start a conversation, which goes into a tape recorder, we dissolve to the conversation being played back (which has continued without interruption, though sound has been altered to fit the new environment) in M's Office. Present are M and his underlings, along with Miss Moneypenny taking dictation. M stops the recorder and sends Moneypenny out of the room. He then turns the machine back on, and the Bond/Tatiana conversation continues. We then cut to Moneypenny, now at her desk, who turns on her intercom and listens in, and us with her. M knows that she has done this and cuts in and asks her to a take a cable to 007. He begins to dictate, while she begins to write. We fade to Bond reading the telegram (picking up right where M left off) to Kerim Bey. What could have been a dull bit of information drop becomes this fluid, humorous and beautiful piece of circular filmmaking. Yet, I would venture a near statistical 100% of the audience never noticed nor appreciated what was going on.

    I've always loved that scene but you have explained why. ;-)
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 7,520
    Birdleson wrote: »
    And it contains one of the best PTSs in the series. I have a friend who is a retried film critic and teacher (still gets me screeners!) who would use it in class, when teaching cinematography and editing. In that PTS, Glen and cinematographer Alec Mills, utilize near every major type of framing shot, tracking shot and pan, and exhibit magnificent visual storytelling through flawless, classic, textbook editing. Because it's in a Bond film, you don't see it mentioned in that capacity often, or, more likely, at all. But the TLD PTS can stand tall next to any piece of editing that is out there.

    I often use a scene from FRWL in my Advanced Multimedia class. Any guess as to what that would be? Not the fight on the train, which would seem the obvious choice.

    Well said re TLD pts. I consider it the best of the series. Its tightly put together, relevant to the plot, and has a superbly set up shot of Dalton as Bond! But ultimately, its just a thrilling opener!
    If I recall, it won best pts in one of the elimination games here?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    And it contains one of the best PTSs in the series. I have a friend who is a retried film critic and teacher (still gets me screeners!) who would use it in class, when teaching cinematography and editing. In that PTS, Glen and cinematographer Alec Mills, utilize near every major type of framing shot, tracking shot and pan, and exhibit magnificent visual storytelling through flawless, classic, textbook editing. Because it's in a Bond film, you don't see it mentioned in that capacity often, or, more likely, at all. But the TLD PTS can stand tall next to any piece of editing that is out there.

    I often use a scene from FRWL in my Advanced Multimedia class. Any guess as to what that would be? Not the fight on the train, which would seem the obvious choice.

    Well said re TLD pts. I consider it the best of the series. Its tightly put together, relevant to the plot, and has a superbly set up shot of Dalton as Bond! But ultimately, its just a thrilling opener!
    If I recall, it won best pts in one of the elimination games here?

    Yes, it did when we last did that a few years ago. A couple years before that, CR won that prize and on both occasions it was between those two in the end.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,334
    I had TLD third so I'm basically pleased with this result. Its major weak point is of course the villains, who lack focus (aside from Necros). Krabbe plays the comedy just right but needed to feel more menacing.

    Eon got the template of multiple villains right a few movies earlier--with OP--and it's surprising they didn't here. But it's obvious much of the effort spent in conceptualizing TLD was on the leading lady and not the villains.
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    Birdleson wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    That has to be it, when Klebb's movement is reversed to fit the scene.

    No, it's the rendezvous with Tatiana on the deck of the ship. Excellent and subtle storytelling. They start a conversation, which goes into a tape recorder, we dissolve to the conversation being played back (which has continued without interruption, though sound has been altered to fit the new environment) in M's Office. Present are M and his underlings, along with Miss Moneypenny taking dictation. M stops the recorder and sends Moneypenny out of the room. He then turns the machine back on, and the Bond/Tatiana conversation continues. We then cut to Moneypenny, now at her desk, who turns on her intercom and listens in, and us with her. M knows that she has done this and cuts in and asks her to a take a cable to 007. He begins to dictate, while she begins to write. We fade to Bond reading the telegram (picking up right where M left off) to Kerim Bey. What could have been a dull bit of information drop becomes this fluid, humorous and beautiful piece of circular filmmaking. Yet, I would venture a near statistical 100% of the audience never noticed nor appreciated what was going on.

    My favorite scene in that film.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited April 2021 Posts: 14,619
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    That has to be it, when Klebb's movement is reversed to fit the scene.

    No, it's the rendezvous with Tatiana on the deck of the ship. Excellent and subtle storytelling. They start a conversation, which goes into a tape recorder, we dissolve to the conversation being played back (which has continued without interruption, though sound has been altered to fit the new environment) in M's Office. Present are M and his underlings, along with Miss Moneypenny taking dictation. M stops the recorder and sends Moneypenny out of the room. He then turns the machine back on, and the Bond/Tatiana conversation continues. We then cut to Moneypenny, now at her desk, who turns on her intercom and listens in, and us with her. M knows that she has done this and cuts in and asks her to a take a cable to 007. He begins to dictate, while she begins to write. We fade to Bond reading the telegram (picking up right where M left off) to Kerim Bey. What could have been a dull bit of information drop becomes this fluid, humorous and beautiful piece of circular filmmaking. Yet, I would venture a near statistical 100% of the audience never noticed nor appreciated what was going on.

    I've always loved that scene but you have explained why. ;-)
    Same here! I'll have to analyze this a bit next time, to see how the scenes flow into each other. I always liked how the consulate map cuts to the larger blueprints too.
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 4,487
    Very interesting comments about the editing of the PTS and the wonderful FRWL scene. Thanks @Birdleson.

    I ranked TLD as #5. The PTS from TLD and GE are my favourites. And what a strong scene is the confrontation with Pushkin in the hotel room? A perfect scene for the darker performance of Dalton.
    Yes, the villains are different and not iconic but they are fitting. Good comment @GoldenGun.
  • StirredNotShakenStirredNotShaken Toronto
    Posts: 2,402
    Birdleson wrote: »
    That is what separates the '60s STAR TREK from all of the later attempts. It was just a great show, it had no interest in referencing itself or appealing to any fanbase.

    I don't know if this is quite fair, speaking as someone who just spent four years going back through all of it. Deep Space Nine, at the very least, clearly set itself apart very quickly as just an effort to be a great television series (which I think it succeeded at). It's very much the Casino Royale of the franchise, and while it connects itself to Trek very well (bringing O'Brien and later Worf on, and of course "Trials and Tribble-ations" which is a pure Trek love letter), I've never felt watching a DS9 episode that they were trying to appeal to Trek fans.
  • DwayneDwayne New York City
    edited April 2021 Posts: 2,851
    Even though I had TLD ranked at #10, it has always maintained a slot in the lower half of my top ten – and probably always will.

    Its’ only real weaknesses – and they are significant IMO - are the mid-tier nature of the two villains, and the geo-politics of “Bond in Afghanistan.” That last issue has not aged well! Other than that, however, I’ve always found TLD to be “classic” Bond – in the best sense – and Dalton’s more measured and world-weary approach to his work to be a real highlight. For example, the hotel room scene between Bond and General Pushkin is IMO among the very best in the entire history of the franchise.

    Interestingly, when LTD was released in 1987 there were some critics that were underwhelmed by it – especially here in the U.S. IIRC, one critic called Timothy Dalton a flashy new hood ornament when, instead, a completely new car was called for. And, in truth, while its’ box office was better than that for AVTAK, it represented only a modest improvement.

    Now, decades removed from its’ original release, it is good to see that people are – finally – coming around to appreciate Dalton and TLD.

    il_570xN.2099409562_4h69.jpg

    And of course, as a charter member of the Maryam d'Abo fan club, I find Bond’s relationship with Kara to be one of the best of the series, with Ms. D’Abo being my second favorite Bond Girl of all-time.

    maryam-dabo-actress-1987-BPTTRH.jpg

    Perhaps it the general public hadn’t seen Dalton as EON’s “back-up” choice” and they had taken an extra year or so to better tailor the script for Dalton, he may have been more accepted. For many casual movie goers, their first word that he had become Bond was an on-set interview taken while he was finishing “Brenda Starr” (*).

    ** Get well wishes to Brooke Shields!!


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