And the Klebbie goes to...Worst execution of a good idea page 147

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  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    Would it have felt strange if they killed off Connery in a less-camp DAF?

    I guess at that point Eon would be afraid that they were signaling that the series was over. It's different with Craig leaving because everyone knows there's always a next Bond...
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited September 2022 Posts: 28,694
    I don't really understand how people think Bond was going to get out of that situation alive. I don't mean any disrespect, but I don't know what movie others were watching. He was already likely going to bleed out from all his bullet wounds, but on top of that even if he did get off the island he was cursed to never be with Madeliene or his daughter again. I think Bond accepts his fate partially because he doesn't want to live if that is his life going forward. His entire life he was alone, and struggled to find companionship, and when he finally found happiness it was taken from him. He did what he could, but at the end there wasn't a way out for him and he wouldn't have wanted to go on if his life was going to remain so hollow. He was done with the spy life and ready to move on, to be a family man, but he couldn't do that now. On top of it, I don't know anyone could think Bond was going to outrun a gigantic barrage of missiles headed for him in just minutes. People complain about Bond surviving a fall from the bridge in SF, but you expect him to survive THAT?! I could only imagine the complaints fans would've made if the scene had been written this way. On top of that, the island had to be destroyed post-haste because there couldn't be any chance that any of the virus would slip through and remain out there in the world, which could mean doom and gloom for millions all over the world.

    I don't see Bond dying as Craig being a diva either. It was a discussion that was had between he and EON, and EON wouldn't let it happen if they didn't believe in the idea as well. You learn as much listening to them all discussing that creative choice and how it came about. And as I stated, the entire era was leading to this kind of ending, or made the idea of Bond dying far more inevitable than surprising, because those themes have been tightly woven from the beginning. Bond dying in the Craig era is far more fitting than Moore's Bond dying, when 95% of those movies weren't taking themselves seriously. There it would've felt bizarre and out of place, but here it's very fitting and makes sense.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,433
    I love your passion, we shall agree to disagree! I have tried to share why I am not a fan of the ending. Again, nothing against killing the character. I am against killing him just so the star can have his tragic end. I had heard he wasn't going to return unless they killed him off. If that's true (who knows) it shows someone who is demanding an ending without a script. I still say telling Nomi to take his lover and child off the island and he stays alone to fight makes no sense. Madeline was set up as this smart character, now she suddenly needs someone to navigate the boat. Matilde gets dropped by Safin, who after seemingly really wanting to keep her simply lets her go. Bond and Madeline are easily able to find her on the massive complex?

    Why do they need to blow up the island? What is the end game? Who were the buyers? Why don't we know who they are? To my mind it is contrivance on top of contrivance.

    It's done, Bond is dead. In some ways I am enjoying the corner that EON has now got on it's hands. Seems fitting that they now are having to re-imagine the character. At least we know they won't kill him again anytime soon. Until the next actor demands it.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    'Daniel had negotiated that (ie. Bond's death) as part of his deal, so that was bolted on', as Danny Boyle put it. Which indicates that it is true that Dan wanted Bond to die and also that they had the ending before the rest of the script. They hadn't worked out exactly how Bond was going to die (at one point they discussed having him die after being struck by a random, stray bullet), but from Boyle's comment it looks like all the versions of the script would've ended with Bond's death.
  • Posts: 2,402
    My vote should *probably* lie with NTTD but I'm gonna wildcard Casino Royale in instead. Baffled that it wasn't in the short list.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Venutius wrote: »
    'Daniel had negotiated that (ie. Bond's death) as part of his deal, so that was bolted on', as Danny Boyle put it. Which indicates that it is true that Dan wanted Bond to die and also that they had the ending before the rest of the script. They hadn't worked out exactly how Bond was going to die (at one point they discussed having him die after being struck by a random, stray bullet), but from Boyle's comment it looks like all the versions of the script would've ended with Bond's death.

    Personally I find Danny Boyle not the soundest source on any of it, considering the fact that he left the film. But even if that is true, it still makes sense, as @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 already elequently put it. Now, should we consider that 'diva' behaviour, or the dedication of Craig to the Bond he played? If anything I've never seen Craig behave entitled in anything, but he's been extremely dedicated to all the roles he played. If you think this is too much influence, that is a fair stance. But by what I've read from your and @thedove 's point of view, it seems you both let the presumption of a diva-Craig wanting to kill off the character for his own enjoyement colour the execution of it all, and I wonder if that's fair.
    Now there are a few things in the last sequences that are perhaps a bit overdramatic and may feel a bit contrived, but storywise I think it all worked properly. The only real fair point I see is the fact that he sends Nomi away,but at the same time: he knew the rockets were coming, and trusted himself to open the doors. Perhaps not realising Safin was still there or thinking he could easily dispose of him himself, it makes sense for Bond to also send Nomi away. After all, the less people are at risk (of not making it back) the better. And that risk was big, no matter all the epic action-movie escapes we've grown so accustomed to in films.
    Personally I didn't like the fact that he got infected at the last moment. That was too much. I'd have preferred him to just not make it, as he was wounded enough, and I think that's more fitting for the warrior he's always been. It wouldn't have changed much, he still would've had his converstation with Madeleine, he still could've climbed the stairs. But at least his enemy would've been time and space, everyday limits we all cope with, instead of the doomsday-blood that could only ask of him to kill himself to protect his loved ones.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited September 2022 Posts: 3,152
    Well, I didn't actually express an opinion on it either way, tbf - I just gave Boyle's quotation to show that there was never going to be a version of NTTD that didn't include Bond's death. According to Boyle, obviously. But I think that's worth knowing because it's not journalistic speculation, it's a direct quotation from someone who was actually involved. So unless Boyle's flat-out lying, that's pretty good evidence that Bond dying was part of the agreement that EON made with Dan to get him to come back for NTTD, no?
    My actual opinion on all this is that I don't think that Dan got the idea to kill Bond in a fit of iconoclastic glee - I think he wanted to go there because he could see the dramatic potential it offered. I don't think that Craig's a diva and I don't think that he had too much influence with EON. I'm actually glad that Dan had that input and that BB and MGW took his concerns and ideas seriously. I think that Craig genuinely cared about the films and that he wanted them to be as good as they could possibly be. I think that Dan's films benefited greatly from his influence.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Venutius wrote: »
    Well, I didn't actually express an opinion on it either way, tbf - I just gave Boyle's quotation to show that there was never going to be a version of NTTD that didn't include Bond's death. According to Boyle, obviously. But I think that's worth knowing because it's not journalistic speculation, it's a direct quotation from someone who was actually involved. So unless Boyle's flat-out lying, that's pretty good evidence that Bond dying was part of the agreement that EON made with Dan to get him to come back for NTTD, no?
    My actual opinion on all this is that I don't think that Dan got the idea to kill Bond in a fit of iconoclastic glee - I think he wanted to go there because he could see the dramatic potential it offered. I don't think that Craig's a diva and I don't think that he had too much influence with EON. I'm actually glad that Dan had that input and that BB and MGW took his concerns and ideas seriously. I think that Craig genuinely cared about the films and that he wanted them to be as good as they could possibly be. I think that Dan's films benefited greatly from his influence.

    I'm not sure what to think of Boyle. So often in these cases one says this, the other the opposite and in the end the truth is actually in the middle, as both sides failed miserably to communicate in a normal manner. So he might've been under the impression that this was the case, whilst that still could've been 'on the table'. Other than that, I completely agree with the rest of your post.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited September 2022 Posts: 7,551
    Jumping into the discussion late, but it almost feels as though NTTD is a little like The Last Jedi in a way; filmmakers wanting to create the best film / story they can, and it running up against expectations of a massive, passionate fanbase, that, if they're honest with themselves (and I'm talking generally, about the masses), don't want groundbreaking filmmaking, but more of the same.
    To continue with the Star Wars example, it's no surprise that TFA, which was basically a remake of ANH, was the most well received of the three films. There were other factors at play as well, of course.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,433
    I thank God that we did not get the "Luke Skywalker" tear down that occurred in TLJ. I was fearful that Nomi was going to be better in every way to Bond. That he'd get put in his place. Refreshing to see a story where the characters were allowed to be themselves.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited September 2022 Posts: 3,152
    I'm not sure what to think of Boyle. So often in these cases one says this, the other the opposite and in the end the truth is actually in the middle, as both sides failed miserably to communicate in a normal manner. So he might've been under the impression that this was the case, whilst that still could've been 'on the table'.
    Yes, Boyle and Hodge and EON/Dan seem to have been pretty far apart on what they wanted and/or expected from NTTD, so it looks like there really was a big failure of communication somewhere along the line. I'm actually glad Boyle left, tbh - I'm not sure there's any aspect of NTTD that would've been better if Boyle had been at the helm. I'd still like to see the Boyle/Hodge script or at least know what they were planning, though!

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Venutius wrote: »
    I'm not sure what to think of Boyle. So often in these cases one says this, the other the opposite and in the end the truth is actually in the middle, as both sides failed miserably to communicate in a normal manner. So he might've been under the impression that this was the case, whilst that still could've been 'on the table'.
    Yes, Boyle and Hodge and EON/Dan seem to have been pretty far apart on what they wanted and/or expected from NTTD, so it looks like there really was a big failure of communication somewhere along the line. I'm actually glad Boyle left, tbh - I'm not sure there's any aspect of NTTD that would've been better if Boyle had been at the helm. I'd still like to see the Boyle/Hodge script or at least know what they were planning, though!

    Well, that's the thing. I'm curious about what they wanted, but I won't believe anything until I see proof. I'm happy with the film we got, so I'm probably happy that he left, but I don't think I'll ever be sure of it.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Boyle said that his and Hodge's script wasn't finished, but he's not said how far they'd got with it. I've only seen passing references to it from Boyle himself, where he said that it went back to Bond's Cold War origins, that most of it was set in Russia and that Bond discovered a daughter he didn't know he had, but that aspect of it was 'very different' to what NTTD did with Mathilde. Who knows? No doubt EON own Hodge's script and it's locked in their vaults, but yes, it'd be fascinating to see where Boyle and Hodge were going with it.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited September 2022 Posts: 7,134
    I don’t mind the concept of Bond dying, I do mind when it’s done with so much sentimentalism, with the overly dramatic Hans Zimmer music not helping at all.

    If that’s how one likes it, that’s fine of course. To each his/her own.

    Considering the NTTD ending next to the OHMSS one makes me dislike the former even more. OHMSS is so much more classy, definitely a case of less is more imo. In general I’d say downer endings should always remain a bit restrained in their execution, they hit me harder that way.

    If it’s too much on the nose, too much trying to emphasise that “this is so sad you know”, it becomes a bit of an eye-roller for me. I’m afraid NTTD was exactly like that.

  • Posts: 15,124
    My vote should *probably* lie with NTTD but I'm gonna wildcard Casino Royale in instead. Baffled that it wasn't in the short list.

    I'm very surprised CR isn't in the list.
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited September 2022 Posts: 554
    thedove wrote: »
    I don't have an issue of them killing off Bond. I think the handling of it was clumsy and rather pointless. I felt zero emotion when they did the office eulogy, or the Madeline to Matilde dialogue that ends the film.

    I would hazard a guess that Connery's Bond dying, or even Moore's Bond dying, I would shed a tear and have some heartstrings pulled. When Craig's Bond died I was left going, why? What was so pointless of his position? Why couldn't have swam off the island? What were the buyers up to that they had no way to stop them except to blow up the island?

    I think the writers painted themselves into a corner and then added things to the plot to help that. Or maybe it was Craig who seemed to demand he be killed. To me his death should serve the story, not come from the whim of an actor who owes much to Bond. For him to demand that the character die seems a bit prima donna for me.

    Maybe that hits to another reason I dislike the ending. That it was Craig who wanted the character killed. No other Bond actor has been given so much clout. Connery left the role because of the lack of control, Moore was happy to play along, Dalton and Lazenby didn't stay long enough to have control. Brosnan tried to lobby for things, but ended up with inferior product.

    I guess it is complex for me. I appreciate your passion @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 and you make some compelling reasons. For me NTTD ending left me cold and rather upset with the execution of an idea that had merit.
    Bond couldn't swim away because he'd been shot multiple times in the chest, in addition to the nanobots

    The story was written from the start to lead to Bond dying, so in a sense the story serves the death rather than the reverse.

    My vote goes to OHMSS.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,433
    Ludovico wrote: »
    My vote should *probably* lie with NTTD but I'm gonna wildcard Casino Royale in instead. Baffled that it wasn't in the short list.

    I'm very surprised CR isn't in the list.

    I like to be as controversial as the real academy awards! LOL!
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,582
    CR for the win! If not, QOS.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    It's not going to be my vote, but Skyfall should be at least nominated here.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    It's not going to be my vote, but Skyfall should be at least nominated here.

    Well, that, honestly, makes no sense. After all, you're stating it's not good enough to get your vote. So, following that line of thinking, it probably isn't the best to anyone, hence beeing nominated won't increas its chances of winning, which then makes the nomination nothin more than clutter.

    It's a good ending to the film, but I don't think it carreis as much Bondian weight as the nominations we got.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,433
    Okay the academy has spoken with some members stating the case for their best ending very eloquently. The winner is....We have all the time in the world On Her Majesty's Secret Service coming to the stage to accept the award is George Lazenby, but he will not make an acceptance speech as he doesn't wish to offend anyone!

    The votes looked like this!
    • OHMSS received 13 votes
    • No Time to Die received 1 vote
    • Octopussy received 1 vote
    • Quantum of Solace received 4 votes
    • write in votes for CR (2), MR (1), TMWTGG (1), FYEO (1), DN (1)

    Our next category was created by @NickTwentyTwo with assistance of @alibondgirl. The Bondie is for great scenes that don't feature James Bond! Many times in the series there have been wonderful scenes where our man is no where in sight. Might be villains plotting, or other nefarious actions! I made one small change and removed Necros fighting with Number 4 and inserted the meeting of Klebb with Tatiana in FRWL

    Here are the nominees:
    • Franz and Dario Give Lupa his Heart in LTK
    • Klebb meets Tatiana in FRWL
    • Dr. No Threatens Dent in DN
    • Spectre Meeting in Paris TB
    • Ourumov and Xenia Test GoldenEye Firing Time in GE
    • Mallory tells Q and Tanner We're All Buggered in SF

    So what does the academy think? Which scene deserves a Bondie for being the best without James Bond?
  • I was going to give my vote to Dent/Dr. No, but the more I think of it, it definitely has to be the SPECTRE Meeting scene. That Ken Adam set is one of my favorite designs from
    him.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 2022 Posts: 3,789
    The SPECTRE meeting in Paris in TB would be my vote here, it introduces SPECTRE and its operations, it showed how menacing and threatening they are, giving a deep insight into Bond's nemesis.

    I liked that it showed us them as the Evil Counterpart of MI6.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,551
    thedove wrote: »
    Okay the academy has spoken with some members stating the case for their best ending very eloquently. The winner is....We have all the time in the world On Her Majesty's Secret Service coming to the stage to accept the award is George Lazenby, but he will not make an acceptance speech as he doesn't wish to offend anyone!

    The votes looked like this!
    • OHMSS received 13 votes
    • No Time to Die received 1 vote
    • Octopussy received 1 vote
    • Quantum of Solace received 4 votes
    • write in votes for CR (2), MR (1), TMWTGG (1), FYEO (1), DN (1)

    Our next category was created by @NickTwentyTwo with assistance of @alibondgirl. The Bondie is for great scenes that don't feature James Bond! Many times in the series there have been wonderful scenes where our man is no where in sight. Might be villains plotting, or other nefarious actions! I made one small change and removed Necros fighting with Number 4 and inserted the meeting of Klebb with Tatiana in FRWL

    Here are the nominees:
    • Franz and Dario Give Lupa his Heart in LTK
    • Klebb meets Tatiana in FRWL
    • Dr. No Threatens Dent in DN
    • Spectre Meeting in Paris TB
    • Ourumov and Xenia Test GoldenEye Firing Time in GE
    • Mallory tells Q and Tanner We're All Buggered in SF

    So what does the academy think? Which scene deserves a Bondie for being the best without James Bond?

    Great idea for the change you made. I’ll go Spectre meeting as well.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    DN, easily.
  • R1s1ngs0nR1s1ngs0n France
    Posts: 2,148
    DN
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,044
    Dr. No. Such a menacing scene without a show of violence. The doctor's god-like voice and the almost empty room, does it all.
  • Posts: 7,430
    Dr. No
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    I'll write in the kitchen fight from TLD for my vote.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    DN today (tomorrow it’s likely go to TB).

    But today, DN.
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