And the Klebbie goes to...Worst execution of a good idea page 147

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  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    And, on a side note, I'd say the deus ex machina filled background of Graves/Moon is utterly implausible even for a Bond film and pretty ridiculous.
    That's what I'm saying, and have been for twenty years. It's much more than a side note, but one of the central problems of this mess of a movie. But nevertheless Tobey, like most of the others in the race, did what the script and the directors ordered them to do. And if they managed to follow suit, it doesn't really warrant a negative award.

    Agreed. In particular, his sudden anger toward Bond in the fencing match makes sense after you realize he is Moon.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    Well well well! As I take to the stage with a side of pork, I grab the envelope and rip it with a flourish. The Klebbie for hammiest performance goes to...we have a tie! Obruchev from NTTD and Carver from TND both received 5 votes.

    Orlov received 4 votes, we had a write in votes for Lamore, Koskov, Boris GE, and Graves.

    In these awards we don't award ties, one must triumph! So dear academy members we shall re-start the votes, but you must choose between Carver in TND or Obruchev in NTTD. Which one is the hammiest performance in a Bond film? You are allowed to vote again and change your vote if you wish.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Carver
  • Carver for me too.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Obruchev of the two. I like Carver better.

    (Goes against my previous logic in voting for Orlov, but I genuinely disliked almost every scene Obruchev featured in NTTD.)
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    obruchev, carver isn't over-acting, he's playing a media mogul, and people in that line of work are way too often exactly like that. Thankfully they don't all try to start big wars...
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    edited November 2022 Posts: 9,030
    Neither is overacting, considering each one's role as determined by the script and very likely also the director. David Dencik is doing exactly what is expected of him. Playing an emotionally disturbed scientist who suddenly thinks he's hit it big after being the butt of jokes for most of his life (it's not his fault that Boris Grishenko was there before him, and much like him), and still behaving like he did in school when everybody picked on him, and now he's seeking revenge on those. He's (along with Ana de Armas) the comic relief of this somewhat dark movie, and he did a fine job.

    Same with Pryce, he is expected to portray a playbook cliché media billionaire, possibly not so far away from Rupert Murdoch and Robert Maxwell, with a satirical twist. Neither of the two deserves a "Klebbie", which seems to be the equivalent of the Golden Raspberry, but both deserve a "Bondie" for their performance. So I abstain from this tiebreaker round. Neither deserves a negative "award" for that.
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    Posts: 554
    I don't dislike Dencik's performance but I love Carver, so Obruchev.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Maybe if Obruchev was a lead, I’d dislike him (instead he mildly annoyed me early, but I thought I understood what his character was supposed to be by the end); but I just dislike Carver as the lead villain— great plan, but he was just so non-threatening that I can’t believe anything about him, including being the mastermind behind WWIII. Not all villains have to be physically intimidating, but a cold, calculating menace and psychopathy would go a long way for a media tycoon planning a war. Plus being unlikeable as a character doesn’t mean there couldn’t also be nuance and subtlety in the performance.

    Whether the director called for this mad-scientist schtick or not, it just rings hollow to me. And I love big baddies like Goldfinger and Mr. Big/Kananga …
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,030
    peter wrote: »
    Maybe if Obruchev was a lead, I’d dislike him (instead he mildly annoyed me early, but I thought I understood what his character was supposed to be by the end); but I just dislike Carver as the lead villain— great plan, but he was just so non-threatening that I can’t believe anything about him, including being the mastermind behind WWIII. Not all villains have to be physically intimidating, but a cold, calculating menace and psychopathy would go a long way for a media tycoon planning a war. Plus being unlikeable as a character doesn’t mean there couldn’t also be nuance and subtlety in the performance.

    Whether the director called for this mad-scientist schtick or not, it just rings hollow to me. And I love big baddies like Goldfinger and Mr. Big/Kananga …

    I probably repeat myself here considerably, but I think - apart from his portrayal, his mannerisms and his handling of computer keyboards - Carver (including his scheme) is the most realistic villain of the entire franchise. He basically does nothing else than what William Randolph Hearst did in connection with the Spanish-American War...only updated to the late 20th century ("You'll furnish the pictures, I'll furnish the war.").

    It's considerably closer to the real world than someone, say, tries to release specially prepared young women to spread lethal diseases worldwide or so, or blow up your pants Kansas or whatever state it was ...oh, wait, no one would know about that for weeks.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited November 2022 Posts: 9,509
    @j_w_pepper I've always loved the plan, as I said above. I just hated the mad scientist schtick that, IMO, is the way Pryce played Carver.

    Just my opinion, and I'm not known for having the highest IQ, so nothing to take all that seriously.

    Edit: it was an earlier post on this thread that I mentioned liking the plan, hating the villain.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,030
    peter wrote: »
    @j_w_pepper I've always loved the plan, as I said above. I just hated the mad scientist schtick that, IMO, is the way Pryce played Carver.
    Yes, but I don't believe for a second that he exaggerated his role without being requested to so so.
    peter wrote: »
    Just my opinion, and I'm not known for having the highest IQ, so nothing to take all that seriously.
    Don't worry, Peter, no need for justifying your position, and I certainly wouldn't question your IQ. Carver is as good an answer for this "runoff election" as the other...or none.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Obruchev. So hammy, I thought someone had thrown a leg o' pig onto the set. It's like Dencik prepared for his scenes by going into Asda for an hour and staring at meat products.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2022 Posts: 7,547
    If it's between the two, I think Carver hammed it up more. But it's deserving of a Bondie, not a Klebbie... I wouldn't give a Klebbie to either performance honestly... The dilemma!

    I'll vote Carver.
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Maybe if Obruchev was a lead, I’d dislike him (instead he mildly annoyed me early, but I thought I understood what his character was supposed to be by the end); but I just dislike Carver as the lead villain— great plan, but he was just so non-threatening that I can’t believe anything about him, including being the mastermind behind WWIII. Not all villains have to be physically intimidating, but a cold, calculating menace and psychopathy would go a long way for a media tycoon planning a war. Plus being unlikeable as a character doesn’t mean there couldn’t also be nuance and subtlety in the performance.

    Whether the director called for this mad-scientist schtick or not, it just rings hollow to me. And I love big baddies like Goldfinger and Mr. Big/Kananga …

    I probably repeat myself here considerably, but I think - apart from his portrayal, his mannerisms and his handling of computer keyboards - Carver (including his scheme) is the most realistic villain of the entire franchise. He basically does nothing else than what William Randolph Hearst did in connection with the Spanish-American War...only updated to the late 20th century ("You'll furnish the pictures, I'll furnish the war.").

    It's considerably closer to the real world than someone, say, tries to release specially prepared young women to spread lethal diseases worldwide or so, or blow up your pants Kansas or whatever state it was ...oh, wait, no one would know about that for weeks.

    Yeah, totally. It was a good real world plot, made Bondian by a megalomaniacal performance by Pryce. For a Bond fan, it feels like just what the Doctor Kaufman ordered... IMO.

    He's probably one of my favourite Villain / Actor combos in the entire franchise.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,571
    If it's between the two, I think Carver hammed it up more. But it's deserving of a Bondie, not a Klebbie... I wouldn't give a Klebbie to either performance honestly... The dilemma!

    I'll vote Carver.
    Same thoughts here. I'll vote Carver, and I do love his performance. Just look at that extra eyebrow raise when he claims, "There's no news, like bad news!"
  • Posts: 7,418
    Carver
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 4,483
    Obruchev
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Neither is overacting, considering each one's role as determined by the script and very likely also the director. David Dencik is doing exactly what is expected of him. Playing an emotionally disturbed scientist who suddenly thinks he's hit it big after being the butt of jokes for most of his life (it's not his fault that Boris Grishenko was there before him, and much like him), and still behaving like he did in school when everybody picked on him, and now he's seeking revenge on those. He's (along with Ana de Armas) the comic relief of this somewhat dark movie, and he did a fine job.

    Same with Pryce, he is expected to portray a playbook cliché media billionaire, possibly not so far away from Rupert Murdoch and Robert Maxwell, with a satirical twist. Neither of the two deserves a "Klebbie", which seems to be the equivalent of the Golden Raspberry, but both deserve a "Bondie" for their performance. So I abstain from this tiebreaker round. Neither deserves a negative "award" for that.

    As convincing as I find Pryce's Carver, as unconvincing I find Dencik's portrayal. Perhaps it's the (not too convincing) accent, or the not-so-convincing interaction with his 'collegues', but it just doesn't work at all for me. He's condescending without coming over as overtly intelligent. Perhaps the character is just out of place here. I don't find him funny in the slightest, and even him beeing annoying doesn't work (as it did with Boris). If he is a 'schoolboy-baddy', there should be some venom in there, but even his lines about his soup, all set to do just that, come over empty and flat.

    His role may have been intended as comic relief, for me it doesn't work. Thankfully, Ana's compensates in spades. Now THAT's acting. her timing is incredable, her character as unrealistic as it is believable.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited November 2022 Posts: 8,216
    Yeah the reason why I find Pryce more palatable is that he actually fits quite well with the enjoyable excesses of TND.

    Obruchev sticks out like a sore thumb in NTTD. I would have loved if he had taken a turn once he had been found out following the Cuba sequence, as if his idiocy was an act (along the lines of the final scene of Primal Fear, where Norton's character's facade drops). Something like that would have really helped the moment where Nomi kicks him to his death, because by that point he would really have transformed into a hateful bastard worthy of such a violent end.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited November 2022 Posts: 3,152
    Obruchev sticks out like a sore thumb in NTTD. I would have loved if he had taken a turn once he had been found out following the Cuba sequence, as if his idiocy was an act.
    Great idea, CraigMoore - far preferable to the unleavened buffoonery we did get. Dencik was pretty good in the ITV version of The Ipcress File, so he could definitely have been convincing if Obruchev had revealed himself as a hardline ruthless swine with the stock fool act having just been a front so that people would dismiss and underestimate him. Good call, mate.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Neither is overacting, considering each one's role as determined by the script and very likely also the director. David Dencik is doing exactly what is expected of him. Playing an emotionally disturbed scientist who suddenly thinks he's hit it big after being the butt of jokes for most of his life (it's not his fault that Boris Grishenko was there before him, and much like him), and still behaving like he did in school when everybody picked on him, and now he's seeking revenge on those. He's (along with Ana de Armas) the comic relief of this somewhat dark movie, and he did a fine job.

    Same with Pryce, he is expected to portray a playbook cliché media billionaire, possibly not so far away from Rupert Murdoch and Robert Maxwell, with a satirical twist. Neither of the two deserves a "Klebbie", which seems to be the equivalent of the Golden Raspberry, but both deserve a "Bondie" for their performance. So I abstain from this tiebreaker round. Neither deserves a negative "award" for that.

    As convincing as I find Pryce's Carver, as unconvincing I find Dencik's portrayal. Perhaps it's the (not too convincing) accent, or the not-so-convincing interaction with his 'collegues', but it just doesn't work at all for me. He's condescending without coming over as overtly intelligent. Perhaps the character is just out of place here. I don't find him funny in the slightest, and even him beeing annoying doesn't work (as it did with Boris). If he is a 'schoolboy-baddy', there should be some venom in there, but even his lines about his soup, all set to do just that, come over empty and flat.

    His role may have been intended as comic relief, for me it doesn't work. Thankfully, Ana's compensates in spades. Now THAT's acting. her timing is incredable, her character as unrealistic as it is believable.

    Like what I've said in my earlier post, I think Dencik was miscast, I think if the character was played with a younger actor (let's say someone in his 30's), I think it would be a lot more convincing, think of Boris, Alan Cummings really nailed the character, because it fits in with the actor himself, his physical features, his facial expressions, and fits in with his age.

    But with Dencik, one may expect, based on his physical features that he would play a somewhat serious and old fashioned scientist, someone whose conservative, but it's all the opposite as it turned out, it didn't fit him, he comes off as a bully naughty daddy that one may expect to see in a gag show or sitcom, instead of a silly naive sarcastic jerk of a scientist whom what the character was supposed to be.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Carver. I like animals.
  • Posts: 15,116
    peter wrote: »
    @j_w_pepper I've always loved the plan, as I said above. I just hated the mad scientist schtick that, IMO, is the way Pryce played Carver.

    Just my opinion, and I'm not known for having the highest IQ, so nothing to take all that seriously.

    Edit: it was an earlier post on this thread that I mentioned liking the plan, hating the villain.

    Personally, I'm torn about Elliot Carver. Like you I find him unthreathening, I also find him too cliché as an evil tycoon. Yet l can't help but find him darn entertaining. That kung fu parody he does to Way Lin never ceases to get me. It's like a big middle finger to the whole "female that is Bond's equal" trope.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I love big baddies, but only when they show different sides of themselves. Auric Goldfinger is one of the best: rave like a mad man during the Operation Grandslam presentation, and moments later, when Bond compliments him on said presentation and how much he enjoyed it (trying to rattle his adversary), Goldfinger calmly and smugly agrees, "so did I", and marches away from this English pest...

    And the threatening control he has when, earlier, he's got Bond strapped to the table.

    I saw no attempt from Pryce to vary his performance. It was hoaky and, as you say, cliche, @Ludovico ... And I can watch anything Pryce is in, so I'm always very disappointed when I even think of Carver!

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited November 2022 Posts: 8,216
    But of the two, @peter, in the context of the films that they're in....

    Carver is far more at home in TND than Obruchev is in NTTD. Surely that has to be a factor?

    Is one being a mere supporting character as opposed to the other being the main villain your thinking behind the vote?
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    But of the two, @peter, in the context of the films that they're in....

    Carver is far more at home in TND than Obruchev is in NTTD. Surely that has to be a factor?

    Is one being a mere supporting character as opposed to the other being the main villain your thinking behind the vote?

    I definitely agree with you regarding Carver v Obruchev in their respective films, but even so, I may be in the minority that doesn't find Obruchev to be extremely out of place in NTTD.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    [Is one being a mere supporting character as opposed to the other being the main villain your thinking behind the vote?/quote]

    Pretty much @CraigMooreOHMSS , you nailed it right there. I think I posted before that Obruchev annoyed me less and less as NTTD progressed, but Carver is the main villain and, if one isn't impressed by the main villain.... (although, strangely, this is probably my favourite Brosnan Bond performance and my favourite of his 007 films (up until the halo jump, then I feel the film just falls into chaos)).
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited November 2022 Posts: 8,216
    But of the two, @peter, in the context of the films that they're in....

    Carver is far more at home in TND than Obruchev is in NTTD. Surely that has to be a factor?

    Is one being a mere supporting character as opposed to the other being the main villain your thinking behind the vote?

    I definitely agree with you regarding Carver v Obruchev in their respective films, but even so, I may be in the minority that doesn't find Obruchev to be extremely out of place in NTTD.

    I envy you in that case. He's a fairly large drawback to my experience of it. He is thankfully less involved as the film goes on, which is why I agree with @peter that he is less annoying. But that's a matter of his screentime rather than my tolerance. :p
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    Posts: 2,610
    I haven't voted yet, but if I'm allowed to participate in the tiebreak I'd vote for Carver. The only one of the five nominees who should get anywhere near being nominated for a Klebbie instead of a Bondie.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited November 2022 Posts: 3,152
    I sometimes got the impression that Pryce thought himself to be far above Bond films and was just sending them up. Pryce annoyed me more than Dencik - but Obruchev annoyed me more than Carver. Er, if that makes sense! Both performances were more suited to a pastiche than a real Bond film, but I felt that Obruchev was more out of place in a Craig film than Carver was in a Brosnan movie. It jarred more.
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