And the Klebbie goes to...Worst execution of a good idea page 147

1138139141143144148

Comments

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    I feel like if it had been a car Bond used at night, in a forest setting or something to creep close to some sort of enemy base, the Vanish would be perfectly fine- I can actually picture that in a Craig movie, it's not utterly implausible. I can even imagine him wearing a stealth suit to be honest, that would be fun. And that's how Purvis & Wade envisioned it for TWINE: they were surprised when it became an invisible car.

    But then equally, as Simon says, the Lotus could have just been a car which turned amphibious: into a boat or something. But making it a submarine is just a bit more isn't it- Bond movies go a bit further. And it was brilliant. So I can't honestly blame them for taking the technology and pushing it a bit further: it's exactly what they did for the Lotus.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Simon wrote: »
    That said, I feel the Moore era could have had this whole section wrapped up. Octopussy alone has the croc-sub, and a metal pen containing metal eroding acid, and a plastic horses arse disguise for the Acrostar. AVTAK's iceberg-sub, TMWTGG's prosthetic nipple, Moonrakers Gondola. Mind you, these all fit illogical/worst, but I still wouldn't change them.

    Yeah I'm reading your list and thinking 'these are all great!' :D

    If anything something like the prosthetic nipple was underutilised. Can you imagine how unexpected it would have been if it'd doubled as a small explosive or a radio transmitter? Exactly why people say TMWTGG's script is lacking in my opinion.

    What would Moore's quip be with an explosive nipple? He's the only one who could do it.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    "Looks like he needed to get something off his chest." (arching eyebrow) smoke billows from the man's chest?

    "I nipped him in the bud."

    "He needed to nip out."

    Okay they are all probably not in Roger's league! LOL
  • Posts: 4,139
    echo wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Simon wrote: »
    That said, I feel the Moore era could have had this whole section wrapped up. Octopussy alone has the croc-sub, and a metal pen containing metal eroding acid, and a plastic horses arse disguise for the Acrostar. AVTAK's iceberg-sub, TMWTGG's prosthetic nipple, Moonrakers Gondola. Mind you, these all fit illogical/worst, but I still wouldn't change them.

    Yeah I'm reading your list and thinking 'these are all great!' :D

    If anything something like the prosthetic nipple was underutilised. Can you imagine how unexpected it would have been if it'd doubled as a small explosive or a radio transmitter? Exactly why people say TMWTGG's script is lacking in my opinion.

    What would Moore's quip be with an explosive nipple? He's the only one who could do it.

    Just keep the 'quite titilating' line. If anything it would have made it better.
    thedove wrote: »
    "Looks like he needed to get something off his chest." (arching eyebrow) smoke billows from the man's chest?

    "I nipped him in the bud."

    "He needed to nip out."

    Okay they are all probably not in Roger's league! LOL

    Haha, nice!
  • SimonSimon Keeping The British End Up...
    Posts: 154
    thedove wrote: »
    "Looks like he needed to get something off his chest." (arching eyebrow) smoke billows from the man's chest?

    "I nipped him in the bud."

    "He needed to nip out."

    Okay they are all probably not in Roger's league! LOL


    Ok, think you've milked this one enough now.

    You don't want to look like a tit, even if you did have the breast of intentions.

    Lets consign these puns to mammary and get back on topic.



  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    edited June 10 Posts: 9,032
    I bet your favourite birds are pairs of parus major.
  • Posts: 36
    "He appears to be packing teat..."
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,255
    Can we stop the tit for tat puns thrown at eachother? we've got serious points to consider here! Before the whole discussion goes tits up and everybody's playing the ornithologist with tits and boobs flying all over the place.
    mtm wrote: »
    I feel like if it had been a car Bond used at night, in a forest setting or something to creep close to some sort of enemy base, the Vanish would be perfectly fine- I can actually picture that in a Craig movie, it's not utterly implausible. I can even imagine him wearing a stealth suit to be honest, that would be fun. And that's how Purvis & Wade envisioned it for TWINE: they were surprised when it became an invisible car.

    But then equally, as Simon says, the Lotus could have just been a car which turned amphibious: into a boat or something. But making it a submarine is just a bit more isn't it- Bond movies go a bit further. And it was brilliant. So I can't honestly blame them for taking the technology and pushing it a bit further: it's exactly what they did for the Lotus.

    The problem doesn't lie with the idea itself, allthough an invisible car takes it just a bit too far for practical reasons, it's the stupidity in the way that it's been used that makes it as useless as can be. The hiding behind the car, the tracks in the snow, etc. etc. It just makes no sense whatsoever and makes for extremely lazy scriptwriting.
    BTW I'd be interested what would really happen if you have your car upside down sliding down a lake and you'd eject the empty (ejector)seat next to you to 'turn the car on it's wheels again'. I think it'd mean an earlier end to Bond than the one we got. Die ANother Day indeed.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 11 Posts: 16,383
    Can we stop the tit for tat puns thrown at eachother? we've got serious points to consider here! Before the whole discussion goes tits up and everybody's playing the ornithologist with tits and boobs flying all over the place.
    mtm wrote: »
    I feel like if it had been a car Bond used at night, in a forest setting or something to creep close to some sort of enemy base, the Vanish would be perfectly fine- I can actually picture that in a Craig movie, it's not utterly implausible. I can even imagine him wearing a stealth suit to be honest, that would be fun. And that's how Purvis & Wade envisioned it for TWINE: they were surprised when it became an invisible car.

    But then equally, as Simon says, the Lotus could have just been a car which turned amphibious: into a boat or something. But making it a submarine is just a bit more isn't it- Bond movies go a bit further. And it was brilliant. So I can't honestly blame them for taking the technology and pushing it a bit further: it's exactly what they did for the Lotus.

    The problem doesn't lie with the idea itself, allthough an invisible car takes it just a bit too far for practical reasons, it's the stupidity in the way that it's been used that makes it as useless as can be. The hiding behind the car, the tracks in the snow, etc. etc. It just makes no sense whatsoever and makes for extremely lazy scriptwriting.

    I'm not sure what you mean by 'lazy scriptwriting'.
    I'm also not sure how it makes no sense whatsoever either: it's silly, but I can understand what's happening on screen.
    BTW I'd be interested what would really happen if you have your car upside down sliding down a lake and you'd eject the empty (ejector)seat next to you to 'turn the car on it's wheels again'. I think it'd mean an earlier end to Bond than the one we got. Die ANother Day indeed.

    What are you thinking would happen? Something to do with the gases firing the seat or something? Really it's not dissimilar to the technique of firing a big piston out of a car they actually use to flip cars in films- like the Aston roll in CR for example.
  • SimonSimon Keeping The British End Up...
    Posts: 154
    mtm wrote: »
    What are you thinking would happen? Something to do with the gases firing the seat or something? Really it's not dissimilar to the technique of firing a big piston out of a car they actually use to flip cars in films- like the Aston roll in CR for example.

    I think it might be the point that once ejected, the seat is not 'part' of the car. When it smacks into the lake, it wouldn't flip the car. It would either shatter, or just bounce back into the car, bounce around a bit and probably take Bonds head off. If it had enough force to hit the lake, rebound, and have enough force to right the car, then that ejector seat is: A. made out of the strongest material known to science, and B. capable of launching a man to Mars if used correctly!

    But I feel there is plenty more wrong with the Vanish than dubious physics that is no worse than in plenty of the other Bond films!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 11 Posts: 16,383
    Simon wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    What are you thinking would happen? Something to do with the gases firing the seat or something? Really it's not dissimilar to the technique of firing a big piston out of a car they actually use to flip cars in films- like the Aston roll in CR for example.

    I think it might be the point that once ejected, the seat is not 'part' of the car. When it smacks into the lake, it wouldn't flip the car. It would either shatter, or just bounce back into the car, bounce around a bit and probably take Bonds head off.

    No that's not how physics works: it's Newton's Third Law. A bullet is no longer 'part' of a gun when it's fired, and yet there's a recoil.
    Like I said, they actually use this technique to flip cars for real.



    I'm sure it would be how they flipped the Vanquish in that scene too; it's not on wires or anything like that.
  • Posts: 4,139
    I'm not gonna lie, for the longest time that moment in DAD actually really confused me. At one point I didn't even clock that it was the passenger ejector seat.

    No idea if it would work in real life, but then again it doesn't need to really. As long as it kinda makes sense in the film.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 11 Posts: 16,383
    The silliest part is probably that he has a big illuminated button with ‘ejector seat’ written on it- I think the passenger might get a bit suspicious! :D But obviously it’s there for us really.

    I kind of get what you mean though: we never actually see the seat or it getting fired out, so there is something a little missing there.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited June 11 Posts: 6,297
    It occurred to me that, if they wanted to do the YOLT disguise in a future film--to incorporate the "question room" with Blofeld--but not have it be offensive nor derivative of Mission Impossible...

    They could do some sort of adaptive camouflage of Bond's face, not unlike what they tried to do with the Vanquish in DAD.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    The flapping of wings means it is time for a kick in the shins to one of these gadgets....time for the Klebbie to vanish as we present worst illogical gagdet to Die Another Day and the Vanquish Aston Martin It received 8 votes. The Moonraker Cam got one vote and the security system of the Lotus got 3 votes.

    Lets stick with the Klebbie side of things and talk about the some of the worst staged action in the films. For the most part Bond films are known for their action sequences, but there are times when the action fall flat or is poorly executed. Here are the nominees for worst action sequence in the Bond film:
    • Train Fight SPECTRE while the fight between Bond and Hinx is impressive and sprawling, there is one question, where is everyone? As soon at the waiter drops the champange at the table we see no one other than Swann, Hinx and Bond. Despite the fact that the fight goes into another dining car and through a kitchen. You'd think there would be other staff around or passengers. It renders this fight as a lazy exercise.
    • Plane air battle QOS is it the editing that brings this sequence to our list? Maybe, this is one hard to follow air battle. What could have been interesting with an older plane squaring off against a modern air craft could have been a great idea. The execution leaves a lot to be desired. The viewer can never get bearings on how close the craft are, who is doing what. Add to it that Bond and Camille open the chute with feet to spare always gets me chuckling.
    • Fight in the Mansion AVTAK Bond meets Stacey in her mansion and for some reason Zorin has sent some goons to fight them. This fight scene has so much going wrong. It is pretty laughable how badly they film this. It doesn't help that there is nothing in the house so we have this wide open space with nothing to use or fight around. The bad wigs and the lazy camera work doesn't add to this lackluster fight.
    • Meeting Whytes Friends DAF it starts out strong with Bambi and Thumper being introduced with no music and a little bit of tension. But the ladies just toss around Bond without much in terms of creativity. Then the ending in the pool makes little to no sense. Bond is suddenly able to overpower these two strong women? Talking about a fizzling scene that ends with a whimper.
    • Losing our charm TMWTGG who are these thugs? Why do they wish to harm Bond? We don't know and never find out. The fight is interesting with various parts of the room and props used in interesting ways. However we see the camera in the mirror which once seen really diminishes this scene. Why would they approve the scene and not reshoot? It goes into the WTF category.

    So who here gets a kick in the shins? Which is the worst action sequence? Feel free to write in your vote if I haven't nominated your sequence.
  • Posts: 2,266
    I’m going to have to go for the QOS Plane Battle. I actually quite like all the other sequences listed.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    I'll also go for QoS.

    The AVTAK scene is bad, yes, but not the worst. That's a good point in that they could have had a few other antiques around...something to use. Like a grandfather clock (get it). I always smile when the grandfather clock smashes in TB.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    If that's the metric for including the SP train fight, then the desolate streets of Rome should've led to that chase sequence being included too. That's far and away the worst action sequence in the series for me, devoid of any definition of tension, intensity, excitement, or engagement.

    Out of these though, I'd probably have to pick the DAF fight with Bambi and Thumper.

    Someone did a really good write-up on the credibility infused into so many aspects of the QoS plane chase, tidbits and logistics that nobody would realize if they weren't plane enthusiasts. I get people don't like it for other reasons, of course, and while it's probably the "weakest" slice of action in the film for me, I still really enjoy it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 12 Posts: 16,383
    I think I'd go for a couple of others:

    The Moon Buggy chase in DAF, where... nothing happens. Can you remember anything in it? Apart from the wheel which comes off. They just drive around in the desert a bit.

    The ski chase in TWINE. Stuff does happen in this one, but it's boring. The music plods along making it even duller, no one is really moving fast enough, it's all shot from half a mile away to make it seem even less exciting and the editing is pretty terrible.

    Maybe the microchip factory fight in AVTAK, where Bond and his elderly mate duff up a couple of old geezers in the middle of the night. Bond overpowers his one offscreen, so disinterested was anyone in actually shooting an action scene! It's like he just persuades Big Ron to have a lie down on the conveyor belt.

    Of the nominated ones above, I think they're all okay to be honest (the TMWTGG fight is pretty decent, I'd say and the train fight is properly good), with the exception of Bambi & Thumper, where I agree the ending makes no sense at all. The mansion fight is uninspired but not horrendous, and the urn and shotgun things are fun at least.
    I think honestly I'd go with Moon Buggy because a vehicle isn't a concept for an action scene on its own.
  • Posts: 4,139
    None of these are bad necessarily. I'm actually a big fan of TMWTGG's fight, despite the build up not making any sense (it's got a nice gritty vibe to it with the choreography and loose camerawork). What I find damages some of these scenes is the filmmaking (either due to a lack of polish/style in an otherwise fun scene, as per DAF, or for something like haphazard editing and bad shot choices which spoil a pretty decent sequence, as is the case with QOS).

    Surprised nothing from DAD appeared. There's the bizarre sword fight (which to be fair has good choreography) where Bond and Graves seem to temporarily want to kill each other for absolutely no reason/is so outlandish it sticks out. Or the strange fist fight between Zao and Bond at the clinic where we seem to get some random slow mo shots that grinds the pace to a weird halt. Even those aren't awful to be fair...

    I guess I'll go for QOS too. That editing...
  • The Quantum of Solace one annoys a lot, especially the jump out of the plane. And the editing does it no good as well. So I'll go with that one
  • edited June 12 Posts: 7,418
    I wouldn't have put the QoS aerial fight in there, I think its pretty good and original, and certainly not the train fight in SP, which imo is one of the best fights they've staged in the series!
    If you want bad fights Brossa is your man, from the scrap with the old age pensioners in TND, to the face pulling fight with Renard at the end of TWINE!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I actually like all of those scenes except for the fight at Stacy’s house. I recently watched the film, and I really have nothing good to say about it, although the music (while repetitive), elevates, if only slightly, the visual crap that’s on the screen.
  • Posts: 1,917
    mtm wrote: »
    The ski chase in TWINE. Stuff does happen in this one, but it's boring. The music plods along making it even duller, no one is really moving fast enough, it's all shot from half a mile away to make it seem even less exciting and the editing is pretty terrible.

    Maybe the microchip factory fight in AVTAK, where Bond and his elderly mate duff up a couple of old geezers in the middle of the night. Bond overpowers his one offscreen, so disinterested was anyone in actually shooting an action scene! It's like he just persuades Big Ron to have a lie down on the conveyor belt.

    You beat me to two that came to mind for me - the TWINE ski chase, if you can call it that, and the AVTAK fight. You could slow down some of the OHMSS fights frame by frame and it would be quicker than the punches thrown in that one.

    Another one I'd have nominated is the Harlem sequence when Mr. Big orders a couple of his thugs to take that honkey out and waste him. I hope Big had a SPECTRE-like punishment for them. The first thug falls over too easily and the other must've just lost his nerve as bad as the guy in AVTAK by giving up after Bond barely makes contact.

    I don't know if some of the official nominees work in the definition of poorly staged or falling flat, more like sloppy or illogical things happening in them.

    For the Bond-Hinx fight, the focus is on the action, not the surroundings. No, it doesn't make sense there's nobody there but if you're focused on that then the action isn't doing its job.

    The QoS plane battle is pretty bad because it just seems thrown in, like they have Bond in cars, boats and motorcycles, we need a plane in there to round it out. All the AVTAK fights are bad and this is just par for the course. I guess the Bambi and Thumper fight was to symbolize a newer era of independent and tough women, but I'm surprised even an out-of-shape Connery agreed to it. What makes it worse is they toss him around and like cats thrown in the water they just give up?

    I too have wondered about just who the guys are who menace Bond in the TMWTGG Beirut fight. They don't work for Scaramanga or any other villains, just maybe one of jealous husbands M mentions? The fight is decent and it took years for the reveal of the camera thing to come to light as I recall it.

    I guess of these choices I'll go with the AVTAK scene just because it's such an overall pedestrian film as far as most of the action goes.
  • Posts: 5,993
    I cast my vote for QOS as well. I hate it when I can't make tails or heads in an action scene, and I hate it when the stuntmen's magnificent job is ruined by bad editing.
  • SimonSimon Keeping The British End Up...
    edited June 12 Posts: 154
    mtm wrote: »
    I think I'd go for a couple of others:

    The Moon Buggy chase in DAF, where... nothing happens. Can you remember anything in it? Apart from the wheel which comes off. They just drive around in the desert a bit.

    I'd say the car chase in Vegas would also warrant being nominated ahead of Bambi/Thumper if we're throwing DAF under the bus for this one. Apart from the alleyway stunt there is ZERO music score, has unimaginative action, middling-to-slow speed, serves no purpose, awful 'comedy' ("Atta boy, Larry" etc), the alleyway stunt screw-up, and phoned-in acting. Half the chase is circling a poorly lit car park, and the crashes all appear to be easily avoidable to even the most dim-witted, short-sighted driver, making the whole thing feel like an even cheaper afterthought than the slovenly concept of the scene already did.

    Also, the cop inexplicably wearing sunglasses at night. I realise this isn't really relevant in any way, shape or form to the 'Worst Staged Action' bit, but it annoyed me when I was a kid, and it annoys me now.

    Both the Moon Buggy and Vegas chases are dull as dish water and could be cut in their entirety without missing them, whereas I can see how (daft a scene as it is) Bambi/Thumper might at least raise a bit of a smile. It also gives Leiter a better line than Bond got: "Willard Whyte is about to be executed, and guess who's giving breaststroke lessons" may not be tier one, but it beats "If you see a mad professor in a minibus, just smile"!


    From the options given though, I'd swing for the QoS flight. Not because I think it is a particularly bad bit of action, but the others do just rank a bit higher for enjoyment for me. TMWTGG has many faults, arguably including this fight scene, but the "Argh - I've lost my charm" "Not from where I'm standing" sign off to the whole thing can help me forgive a whole lot. Prime Moore, perfectly executed :D


  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited June 12 Posts: 8,216
    There is no action sequence in any other Bond film worse than anything in DAF, which is so lacklustre and devoid of excitement that I am eager to skip to the next dialogue exchange. I'd probably exclude the Bambi & Thumper fight, as that is at least a bit creative in its staging, but I'd fully support the write-in from @mtm about the Moon Buggy. The car chase is an excellent shout, too.

    I've been fairly vocal about the poor quality of Moore's fights overall. I always found him clunky and awkward to watch, but you could argue there was always some sort of a redeeming factor to them.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,255
    Perhaps the 'worst chase' can be it's own Klebbie, as there are plenty of bad ones in the series, more so than fights.
    Personally I love the aieal battle in QoS, as it indeed is done very well and does make sense. Everything Bond does in this one is actually how you do it, allthough for non-aviation-afficianados it is probably hard to follow, so I can't blame anyone for not liking it. Indeed, if the editing had been a little bit more structured and less fast-paced, people might actually see what's going on.

    My vote goes to Bambi and Thumper. I don't understand why Bond is first kicked around and then wins in the pool, only for Leiter and his men to show up. Why wouldn't they just walk in with a couple of police officers and skip the splatter?
    mtm wrote: »
    Simon wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    What are you thinking would happen? Something to do with the gases firing the seat or something? Really it's not dissimilar to the technique of firing a big piston out of a car they actually use to flip cars in films- like the Aston roll in CR for example.

    I think it might be the point that once ejected, the seat is not 'part' of the car. When it smacks into the lake, it wouldn't flip the car. It would either shatter, or just bounce back into the car, bounce around a bit and probably take Bonds head off.

    No that's not how physics works: it's Newton's Third Law. A bullet is no longer 'part' of a gun when it's fired, and yet there's a recoil.
    Like I said, they actually use this technique to flip cars for real.



    I'm sure it would be how they flipped the Vanquish in that scene too; it's not on wires or anything like that.

    Not quite, there's a reason why they use a cilinder (same with a bullit), the recoil follows from the force in the opposite direction (indeed, Newtons' third) beeing directed by the barrel (in the opposite direction, hence the recoil, they push the gun back, or the cilinder, for the part/time when the projectile is still in the cilinder and beeing pushed out). However, with the seat, there's no barrel and the gasses go in every direction. So the directional force is lost, and the chair, for as much as there's one, would probably just end up in the back of the car (considering how far the roof opens).
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,032
    When I read the question, the first thing that came to my mind was the Bambi and Thumper "fight". And @CommanderRoss outlined exactly what is wrong with that scene, which is especially the ending. So my vote goes to DAF here.
  • SimonSimon Keeping The British End Up...
    Posts: 154
    Not quite, there's a reason why they use a cilinder, the recoil follows from the force in the opposite direction beeing directed by the barrel (in the opposite direction, hence the recoil, they push the gun back, or the cilinder, for the part/time when the projectile is still in the cilinder and beeing pushed out). However, with the seat, there's no barrel and the gasses go in every direction. So the directional force is lost, and the chair, for as much as there's one, would probably just end up in the back of the car (considering how far the roof opens).


    Or in simpler terms
    Simon wrote: »
    I think it might be the point that once ejected, the seat is not 'part' of the car.


    ;)


    I say simpler. Perhaps incoherently mangled, but CommanderRoss has explained better what I was intending to put across.
Sign In or Register to comment.