And the Klebbie goes to...Worst execution of a good idea page 147

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  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,433
    Well voting is very tough and tense! 2 votes separate first from third! Wow! Lets see if any more votes come in and I will tabulate a winner.

    Next up will be a Klebbie!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,418
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    I would have easily picked CR if listed, but then again I like Binder's OHMSS, Lazenby's Bond saying the famous line before it begins. But I'll go with GE, it takes us into a Gunbarrel and out of a Gunbarrel, the figures are Gargantuan and the sequence is sparsely populated, creating an eerie atmospheric feel to fit the Russian plot....Great stuffs.

    Yes I remember him saying he wanted to explain what the gunbarrel actually was to audiences (it's not very clear: is it a gunsight? An iris?) which I thought was a good idea.
    Wasn't there also something about him taking inspiration from Dr Strange comics? I don't know them, but the GE titles have those very vivid colours which are quite comic book.

    I always like the way he modernised the 'silhouetted girls' look of Binder- with not just straight silhouettes but given a bit of depth by lighting the women very slightly from behind and the sides.

    It's interesting that he hasn't really used dancing naked ladies for almost the last twenty years... luckily the 'PC gone mad!'/anti-'woke' patrol haven't noticed yet... ;)
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    mtm wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    I would have easily picked CR if listed, but then again I like Binder's OHMSS, Lazenby's Bond saying the famous line before it begins. But I'll go with GE, it takes us into a Gunbarrel and out of a Gunbarrel, the figures are Gargantuan and the sequence is sparsely populated, creating an eerie atmospheric feel to fit the Russian plot....Great stuffs.

    Yes I remember him saying he wanted to explain what the gunbarrel actually was to audiences (it's not very clear: is it a gunsight? An iris?) which I thought was a good idea.
    Wasn't there also something about him taking inspiration from Dr Strange comics? I don't know them, but the GE titles have those very vivid colours which are quite comic book.

    I always like the way he modernised the 'silhouetted girls' look of Binder- with not just straight silhouettes but given a bit of depth by lighting the women very slightly from behind and the sides.

    It's interesting that he hasn't really used dancing naked ladies for almost the last twenty years... luckily the 'PC gone mad!'/anti-'woke' patrol haven't noticed yet... ;)

    LOL...Yeah, Kleinman's GE has a Comic Book style look to it, and the colours are indeed Vivid with the images almost Palpable....he really did modernize Binder's Creation, took it to Loftier Heights....Binder would have been proud.
  • Posts: 1,917
    This really brings off the beauty of a Bond film in all the various elements that work together - gunbarrel, PTS, elaborate credit sequence, the film itself and the ending capped off by "James Bond will return" but can also be appreciated separately. While some are stronger than others, I can't think of a credit sequence I don't like.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,433
    The ladies are shown in silhouette! The Dove walks to the stage and turns and fires his Walther at the screen but it shoots out red rings a la AVTAK! The Bondie for Best Title Sequence is awarded to....Maurice Binder for The Spy Who Loved Me. Accepting the award are a chorus line of Russian women!

    The voting shows the following...this was a hotly contested Bondie.

    OHMSS received 10 votes
    GE received 9 votes
    Spy received 11 votes
    DAD received 0 votes!
    GF received 3 votes

    Okay we now turn back to the Klebbie side of things. Thought this one might be worthy of discussion as it comes up time and time again on the board in a variety of ways. The Bond series has a series of tropes that fans either love or hate. Lets turn our attention to some of the worst tropes of the series.

    The word trope has come to be used for describing commonly recurring literary and rhetorical devices, motifs or clichés in creative works. The Bond series has quite a few. I would like us to consider the following nominees as worst trope of the series:
    • This time the mission is personal...by my count it's been since TLD that our man hasn't been on a straight mission, though I guess you could argue that AVTAK was the last mission that didn't have a truly personal angle.
    • James Bond is dead...no we mean it this time. Oh wait nope he's alive! From FRWL, to TB all the way up to SF many times the series has mined the Bond is dead angle.
    • The person in shades and behaving suspiciously is really the ally. from DN when Leiter is introduced to Tiger in YOLT, to Luigi in FYEO is it time to stop with this!
    • The DB-5 is everywhere. Craig's Bond is supposedly a different character from Connery's yet somehow they both share the same car? The DB-5 was not seen from GF all the way to GE and since it seems it appears with regularity in the films.
    • Bond's treatment of woman I debated this one as you could argue in the 60's and 70's the battle of the sexes were different. But when we see Craig save a woman and then drop her off at the dock (QOS), we see Bond enter a shower and begin kissing a former sex trade worker.(SF) I felt we needed to see if we feel the way Bond uses women needs to be addressed and nominated.

    Okay sorry for the wordy nominations. I am trying to explain what each trope is and how it has played out in the series! Now it's time for the academy to vote...what is the worst trope of the series?
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    This time the mission is personal. Past time to retire this one. Not necessarily permanently but for a few films it would be nice for some "This time the mission is NOT personal" adventures for Bond.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited June 2020 Posts: 7,551
    I'll vote for The DB5 is Everywhere. They used the DB5 in Goldfinger because it was ultra-modern and ahead of it's time; they should have stuck with this trend and just continued to use bleeding edge Astons. I like the DB10 a lot for this reason, despite it being under/misused.
  • Posts: 7,507
    I will have to vote for This time the mission is personal, although I think all of the tropes in contention nag me a bit and are valid of some serious discussion.
  • R1s1ngs0nR1s1ngs0n France
    Posts: 2,148
    This time the mission is personal
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    This time the mission is personal. Past time to retire this one. Not necessarily permanently but for a few films it would be nice for some "This time the mission is NOT personal" adventures for Bond.

    Agree with this. It gets almost as tiresome as "this time the leading lady actually has some brains and is Bond s equal. Not just a dumb eye-candy bimbo like all the previous ones".
  • Posts: 7,507
    This time the mission is personal. Past time to retire this one. Not necessarily permanently but for a few films it would be nice for some "This time the mission is NOT personal" adventures for Bond.

    Agree with this. It gets almost as tiresome as "this time the leading lady actually has some brains and is Bond s equal. Not just a dumb eye-candy bimbo like all the previous ones".


    That is another trope worthy of contention.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,418
    This time the mission is personal. Past time to retire this one. Not necessarily permanently but for a few films it would be nice for some "This time the mission is NOT personal" adventures for Bond.

    Agree with this. It gets almost as tiresome as "this time the leading lady actually has some brains and is Bond s equal. Not just a dumb eye-candy bimbo like all the previous ones".

    Isn’t that just a publicity angle rather than in the films though?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    mtm wrote: »
    This time the mission is personal. Past time to retire this one. Not necessarily permanently but for a few films it would be nice for some "This time the mission is NOT personal" adventures for Bond.

    Agree with this. It gets almost as tiresome as "this time the leading lady actually has some brains and is Bond s equal. Not just a dumb eye-candy bimbo like all the previous ones".

    Isn’t that just a publicity angle rather than in the films though?

    Yes. It doesn t belong on the list. I was just comparing, because the personal angle has also been used a lot in publicity campaigns.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,418
    Fair enough.
    I find it hard to judge this one because I don’t find any of them bad. I certainly don’t see the issue with him becoming emotionally involved with his missions: these are supposed to be dramas.
    I’ll go with the ‘treatment of women’ thing as it’s the only one that’s lead to anything troublesome recently with the Severine shower business.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I am all for exploring Bond s person. It is just the emphasis on it that has become a bit exaggerated. Sprinkle it throughout. Sometimes less is more.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,418
    I totally get it with the Blofeld-bro thing (is there actually anyone who thinks that was a good idea? :D ) but other than that I don't have a problem with the way they've involved him. CR was only personal because he fell in love; QoS was supposed to be him going after Vesper's killers but that side of things was left very underdeveloped to the extent that it was barely about that at all; Skyfall is only personal to the extent that it's one of M's old agents trying to kill her; and then Spectre has the silly brother mess. I dunno, I don't find it too much.

    If you watch any superhero film at all it'd be tough to say they don't have the same level of 'personal': it's always about family members and loved ones. That's what adventure stories are. Star Wars etc.
  • Max_The_ParrotMax_The_Parrot ATAC to St Cyril’s
    Posts: 2,426
    The DRP are willing to donate a year’s supply of pistachios to any writer who delivers no more this mission is personal moments in Bond 26
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    edited June 2020 Posts: 45,489
    mtm wrote: »
    I totally get it with the Blofeld-bro thing (is there actually anyone who thinks that was a good idea? :D ) but other than that I don't have a problem with the way they've involved him. CR was only personal because he fell in love; QoS was supposed to be him going after Vesper's killers but that side of things was left very underdeveloped to the extent that it was barely about that at all; Skyfall is only personal to the extent that it's one of M's old agents trying to kill her; and then Spectre has the silly brother mess. I dunno, I don't find it too much.

    If you watch any superhero film at all it'd be tough to say they don't have the same level of 'personal': it's always about family members and loved ones. That's what adventure stories are. Star Wars etc.

    Good points, cannot disagree.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    The problem with the Severine scene is the ludicrous editing where he just appears in the shower. I find it hard to believe nobody pointed out how it would look and what it could imply.

    I don't want to make things too serious, but regardless of her being a former victim of the sex trade - she is a grown woman and allowed to consent. Even former trafficking victims are allowed to consent to sex. The problem is the way it cuts to him just entering the shower without her acknowledging his presence is just...odd? She cleary consents to him being there, but why don't we see him enter the boat and for there to be some interaction - even just a look between them - beforehand.

    Other than that his treatment of women is mostly in service of the job. It's all justified given the high stakes he is playing with. (Of course, there are moments where that's not the case and he treats incidental women quite badly, and these are rare nowadays, I think).

    So, given all that, I go for DB5 being omnipresent.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited June 2020 Posts: 7,136
    Bond's treatment of women isn't always the best, I agree with that and I am uncomfortable watching some of those moments, the turning of Pussy is a series' lowpoint and the interrogation of Miss Anders is very questionable too.

    Nevertheless, Bond isn't Zorro. He's an anithero as much as he is a hero and he wasn't written as a nice guy to begin with. He has character flaws and isn't always the most likeable fellow. His actions are reminiscent of that.

    Other two tropes I'm not too fond of are the overuse of the DB5 and the lack of a non-personal mission since TLD.

    Basically my thoughts on these last two are similar. I love the DB5, it's a gorgeous car (how can it not be, it's designed by Italians), I really liked it popping up in the early Brosnan films as a nod to the Connery films, but now that it has been prominently featured in the last two films, it feels a bit too much. It's nice to see it back after being away for a few films, but you take away its uniqueness when you keep bringing it back for every entry.

    Same goes for the personal angle. In OHMSS and LTK that was a breath of fresh air. I also understand its use in GE, and in TND it's only there for half of the film.
    CR, no problem, you finally get the rights for the first Fleming novel so I'd say you'd better use it. QOS wraps it up nicely and we're off for a good old mission without personal stakes.

    But again the Mendes films really bug me here. There was no need whatsoever to bring another personal struggle to the table yet again. It's a missed opportunity not having a Craig film alla Blood Stone. It makes no sense that he's an 'old dog' in SF, he's only started out two movies ago! This persistent search to keep making him a victim in his own movies has become tiresome.

    Considering all these points, I've got to go with too many personal stakes in quick succession.
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 4,483
    This time the mission is personal.
    Very good idea for a new klebbie round!
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    This time the mission is personal for sure! I understand it's use in particular films, but i's been done to death, I agree. It's time to move on and have Bond take on a mission because it's the mission and it's his duty, not because he's got some personal motive driving him.
  • Agent_OneAgent_One Ireland
    edited June 2020 Posts: 280
    This time the mission is personal. It's been done. So. Many. Times. And just when I thought SF could put the trope out of its misery for a while, SP and NTTD double down on it. I've enjoyed how it's been used in several of the films, but the overuse is obvious.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited June 2020 Posts: 4,247
    The problem with the ever present presence of the DB5 in Craig's Era is, it doesn't really add anything ultra-unique....It's only used for casual driving, although snippets of its Gadgetry were shown in SF. But Thankfully Cary has put it into good use in NTTD.

    I'll go with This time the mission is personal. It was utilized properly and sparingly in earlier eras in such a way that it didn't jeopardize the plot, but it has become too Ubiquitous in Craig's era....a Fantastic Bond he is, but it's too much of the personal stakes that has made his era not so 100%, even if he's a Top Bond and will forever be up there with other Top Bonds.
  • Posts: 698
    I will defend the mission being personal as it offers some interesting dynamics and stories. It doesn't work all the time, and it is perhaps overdone but I think you can get really interesting angles and see Bond as a character be more fleshed out. I suspect this will win.

    My vote will go to the person in shades and behaving suspiciously is really the ally. It a false tease and it does anger me. The most egregious example is Leiter in TLD where Bond could have easily shot the two ladies or escaped.
  • Posts: 7,431
    I must be one of the few who doesnt mind the "this time its personal" as LTK would be one of my favourite Bonds.
    I' ll go with the 'DB5 is everywhere".
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,134
    This time the mission is personal.
  • Posts: 928
    This time the mission is personal... it's a never-ending soap opera! If you combine all the personal intrigues from LTK to SP, it puts Killing Eve to shame!
  • jabalijabali Los Angeles
    Posts: 43
    This time the mission is personal, for sure.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I must be one of the few who doesnt mind the "this time its personal" as LTK would be one of my favourite Bonds.
    I' ll go with the 'DB5 is everywhere".


    Oh, I don´t think people have a problem with the idea itself. It´s just the tedius repetition that is bothering us. Starting with LTK, Bond has "gone rogue" or defied orders for personal reasons in some capacity in every film, except GE and TND. It´s getting a bit absurd by this point.
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