And the Klebbie goes to...Worst execution of a good idea page 147

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  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited June 2020 Posts: 7,108
    jobo wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I must be one of the few who doesnt mind the "this time its personal" as LTK would be one of my favourite Bonds.
    I' ll go with the 'DB5 is everywhere".


    Oh, I don´t think people have a problem with the idea itself. It´s just the tedius repetition that is bothering us. Starting with LTK, Bond has "gone rogue" or defied orders for personal reasons in some capacity in every film, except GE and TND. It´s getting a bit absurd by this point.

    I agree, LTK is my absolute favourite, but after 14 straightforward mission and a mere one 'personal' story twenty years earlier that's a very unique and refreshing idea for 1989.

    In 2020 however, after a whole era of all sorts of personal involvement, not so much.
  • DwayneDwayne New York City
    Posts: 2,838
    This time the mission is personal. As many of you have stated, this trope is long past it’s “sell-by date.”

    Interesting…maybe the Bond producers no longer think that general audiences believe that the world is actually worth saving (on its’ own merits, that is)! After all, why would Bond want to save this crummy world unless the mission has a personal aspect to it.

    And to be honest, there are days – usually after a check of the news – when I think the same thing!
    :))
  • This time. It's........personal. Oh, so personal. (Can we please have a couple of straightforward missions with no personal involvement just to remind us what those are supposed to be like?)

    The issue of Bond's treatment of women could be discussed at great length, and yes, the DB-5 needs to be retired for several films...but I don't really mind Felix in sunglasses, and Bond hasn't been killed in the PTS quite as often as one might think. But we're all going to be a little sensitive to the personal angle until Brother Blofeld is relegated to a bad memory. Maybe 20 years from now. At the current rate of release, that's only going to be 4 movies away....
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    This time it's personal.

    I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but the worst aspect of it is that so many villains are connected to the British government. 006, the husband of Bond's ex, the daughter of M's best friend, whatever Miranda Frost was, Vesper from Treasury, another former agent in the form of Silva, Bond's foster brother. It's like Britain is at war with itself!
  • edited June 2020 Posts: 3,566
    It's like Britain is at war with itself!

    If it's good enough for the USA then everybody else should want a piece of it too.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,767
    thedove wrote: »
    The word trope has come to be used for describing commonly recurring literary and rhetorical devices, motifs or clichés in creative works. The Bond series has quite a few. I would like us to consider the following nominees as worst trope of the series:
    • This time the mission is personal...by my count it's been since TLD that our man hasn't been on a straight mission, though I guess you could argue that AVTAK was the last mission that didn't have a truly personal angle.
    • James Bond is dead...no we mean it this time. Oh wait nope he's alive! From FRWL, to TB all the way up to SF many times the series has mined the Bond is dead angle.
    • The person in shades and behaving suspiciously is really the ally. from DN when Leiter is introduced to Tiger in YOLT, to Luigi in FYEO is it time to stop with this!
    • The DB-5 is everywhere. Craig's Bond is supposedly a different character from Connery's yet somehow they both share the same car? The DB-5 was not seen from GF all the way to GE and since it seems it appears with regularity in the films.
    • Bond's treatment of woman I debated this one as you could argue in the 60's and 70's the battle of the sexes were different. But when we see Craig save a woman and then drop her off at the dock (QOS), we see Bond enter a shower and begin kissing a former sex trade worker.(SF) I felt we needed to see if we feel the way Bond uses women needs to be addressed and nominated.
    My pet trope would be call-outs to other films, an open door to silliness. Themes from Lawrence of Arabia, The Magnificent Seven, Close Encounters (or even use of the Bond Theme in situ breaking the fourth wall). Tarzan yell. Others. I like the Barbara Wodehouse item, so there are no absolutes. But at this point it's Disney territory and should not be returned to.

    I don't have an issue with the 5 tropes identified, repetition in Bond films is a given. If pressed I'd go with person in shades.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,340
    2Wint2Kidd wrote: »
    I will defend the mission being personal as it offers some interesting dynamics and stories. It doesn't work all the time, and it is perhaps overdone but I think you can get really interesting angles and see Bond as a character be more fleshed out. I suspect this will win.

    My vote will go to the person in shades and behaving suspiciously is really the ally. It a false tease and it does anger me. The most egregious example is Leiter in TLD where Bond could have easily shot the two ladies or escaped.

    Yeah it does seem unnecessarily risky! :D
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited June 2020 Posts: 13,767
    Dwayne wrote: »
    Interesting…maybe the Bond producers no longer think that general audiences believe that the world is actually worth saving (on its’ own merits, that is)! After all, why would Bond want to save this crummy world unless the mission has a personal aspect to it.
    I dunno, there's dialog in QOS confirming they know what Bond and his motivations are about.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,575
    I'd go with the personal angle. But would TND really fall into that category? I guess knowing Paris from back in the day but it didn't overwhelm the plot.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,340
    jobo wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I must be one of the few who doesnt mind the "this time its personal" as LTK would be one of my favourite Bonds.
    I' ll go with the 'DB5 is everywhere".


    Oh, I don´t think people have a problem with the idea itself. It´s just the tedius repetition that is bothering us. Starting with LTK, Bond has "gone rogue" or defied orders for personal reasons in some capacity in every film, except GE and TND. It´s getting a bit absurd by this point.

    He does it in TLD too. Golden Gun, Moonraker... I can't be bothered to go through them all, but isn't it just a part of the series? I don't see what's tedious about it. Conflict is the source of drama.
    Which films hit the top spots when Bond fans vote on it? Casino Royale and On Her Majesty's.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,400
    I wouldn't deny some of the best films in the series use the personal angle. I could point to FRWL, TB, GF, TSWLM and show you solid entries where there is no personal angle. I guess my bias is showing. :)

    Great discussion on these nominees! I sense a landslide winner but I shall let the academy vote! Welcome to some of our newer voters! Love adding new voices to the academy.
  • edited June 2020 Posts: 7,507
    mtm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I must be one of the few who doesnt mind the "this time its personal" as LTK would be one of my favourite Bonds.
    I' ll go with the 'DB5 is everywhere".


    Oh, I don´t think people have a problem with the idea itself. It´s just the tedius repetition that is bothering us. Starting with LTK, Bond has "gone rogue" or defied orders for personal reasons in some capacity in every film, except GE and TND. It´s getting a bit absurd by this point.

    He does it in TLD too. Golden Gun, Moonraker... I can't be bothered to go through them all, but isn't it just a part of the series? I don't see what's tedious about it. Conflict is the source of drama.
    Which films hit the top spots when Bond fans vote on it? Casino Royale and On Her Majesty's.


    When I said it "started with LTK" I was referring to the "going rogue" trope which is connected: Bond is so personally driven that he takes on the mission for himself and not as his duty. EON has gone overboard with this idea during the last decades.

    I don´t really mind a personal story if it´s done well, far from it. However, we seem to have stumbled into a corner now where every single villain has to have had some history related to MI6 or Bond himself, and where a straight mission seems to be intolorable. The whole idea loses some of its purpose. My favorite dessert is a home made créme brulée. I always make it for special occations and when I eat it it feels like a celebration. However, if had a créme brulée every day, it would lose some of its magic and sense of festiveness. It is the same with the "personal angle" and Bond "going rogue". It´s not unusual or special anymore. It has become a tedius staple.
  • Posts: 1,916
    By far, This time it's personal. In this thread and another, people have stressed it's supposedly in all action movies and television, if not everything. It's here to stay, okay. My question is if it's so effective then why do I still immensely enjoy the films in the Bond series that preceded all of that? Is it no possible to enjoy something and have it without that while still be an effective and entertaining experience?

    I don't mind the touches of it listed in some of the examples above, but not overwhelming it as we've had for numerous movies now. I think of Bond needling the villain or the small actions such as Bond's killing of knife-throwing twin Greshka in OP with the line "That's for 009" or saying to Scarmanga, "I admit killing you would be a pleasure." I find those so much more effective than "I never miss" in TWINE for instance.

    Also tired of the DB5. Fresh and welcome in GE. Nice little surprise in CR. I may have been the only person who say indifferent and not particularly enthused at the reveal scene in SF.
  • Posts: 631
    This Klebbie is really hard, as I hate pretty much all those tropes. I would happily see them all disappear and never used again.

    We need to be careful what we mean when we talk about attitudes to women (trope 5 on the list). There is a distinction to be made between (A) the films’ attitude to women and (B) Bond’s attitude to women. Bond is a character in fiction and like all such characters his attitudes do not necessarily reflect the attitudes of the authors of that fiction. If he behaves in ways that viewers do not approve of, that is not necessarily a fault, because it makes the audience think about behaviour. If fiction can only include characters who are morally upright then fiction would be very boring. But if the actual film appears to treat women as objects (I’m thinking of scenes like Jill St John in the second half of DAF) then I find that more difficult.

    Anyway the trope I choose is the DB5. I do not understand why it has to be in Craig’s films at all.
  • edited June 2020 Posts: 631
    To clarify my DB5 point, I can understand why the other tropes exist (even if I do not agree with them), but not the DB5.

    - This time it’s personal: the plot reason for this is that it raises the stakes in the film, it makes the plot more urgent and tense
    - Guy in dark shades: this has a plot purpose too, it increases a sense of mystery and threat
    - Treatment of women: this reveals character, which is vital for any good story
    - Bond is dead: this drives the plot forward too, and it can also reveal character, in that it shows the efforts Bond must make to get back to anything like normal (eg Skyfall)

    -DB5: er, what reason does it actually serve? What purpose does it have? Why not use a Lotus Esprit instead?
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,767
    The DB5 is Bond's car and the most famous car in the world. That's part of it.

    Can be looked at as a staple like the PPK and the martini. Or not.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited June 2020 Posts: 7,546
    The DB5 is Bond's car and the most famous car in the world. That's part of it.

    Can be looked at as a staple like the PPK and the martini. Or not.

    Good point about the PPK. I hate when they try to modernize Bond's carry with the P99.
    But with the car, I'd rather they kept using more modern Astons instead of always using the DB5... interesting.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    I think the main reason the DB5 keeps returning in Craig's era, is because of the warm reception it got in SF....EON see it as having a sort of edge over the audience. Just like the family root thing was well received in SF, EON felt the need to keep bringing back the DB5....only in NTTD, it's in full Action and Gadget-mode, just to add change. Am sure EON might have noticed the DB5 has overstayed its welcome, that's why the V8 appears in NTTD.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    In TMWTGG and Moonraker Bond is given the go ahead by M, he's not rogue in either situation. Not sure what you mean when you say he goes rogue in TLD? If you mean when he chooses not to shoot Pushkin or Kara, then that doesn't count because Bond is trusted to use his instincts. Of course, M is annoyed at this, but he is proven right. Hence in QoS when Bond makes his stand against M and escapes from Mi6 (awful respect for his colleagues there too - leaving them choking on their own tongues and dying for all he knows and cares), she says she 'trusts him'.

    You might also be referring to Bond ordering a different bottle of champagne than the one on M's shopping list in TLD, but I don't know.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,340
    jobo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I must be one of the few who doesnt mind the "this time its personal" as LTK would be one of my favourite Bonds.
    I' ll go with the 'DB5 is everywhere".


    Oh, I don´t think people have a problem with the idea itself. It´s just the tedius repetition that is bothering us. Starting with LTK, Bond has "gone rogue" or defied orders for personal reasons in some capacity in every film, except GE and TND. It´s getting a bit absurd by this point.

    He does it in TLD too. Golden Gun, Moonraker... I can't be bothered to go through them all, but isn't it just a part of the series? I don't see what's tedious about it. Conflict is the source of drama.
    Which films hit the top spots when Bond fans vote on it? Casino Royale and On Her Majesty's.


    When I said it "started with LTK" I was referring to the "going rogue" trope which is connected: Bond is so personally driven that he takes on the mission for himself and not as his duty.

    It sounds pretty good when you put it like that.

    I don't think he goes rogue in CR (disobeys a couple of orders and leaves the service, but no personal missions), QoS (he goes on the run for about a minute in the hotel before she basically gives him her blessing), Sf (not at all), and yes, he's rogue at the beginning of Spectre.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,340
    In TMWTGG and Moonraker Bond is given the go ahead by M, he's not rogue in either situation.

    In MWTGG it's about as personal a mission as it could possibly be(!) and he's not working for the SIS, no. In Moonraker he's ordered off the case by the Minister and has to go on the mission unofficially.
    If either of those had happened in the last couple of films you'd probably be counting them! :)
    In Spectre he's given the go-ahead by the previous M, so that shouldn't count either ;)
    Not sure what you mean when you say he goes rogue in TLD? If you mean when he chooses not to shoot Pushkin or Kara, then that doesn't count because Bond is trusted to use his instincts.

    He defies his direct orders to kill both of them, yes. Jobo specified 'defying orders'. He knows Pushkin and doesn't believe he'd do it.
  • Posts: 1,916
    Come on, there's a difference between personal aspects on a mission and the personal being incorporated into the plot and an overarching part of it: Bond goes rogue for the whole film of LTK; Bond's former colleague and friend is his target in GE; Bond is played by everybody throughout TWINE; "Somebody set me up, I'm going after him" in DAD; etc.; Vesper and first real mission in CR; revenge for Vesper in QoS; Bond's past and M in SF; Brofeld in SP. Those are pretty clearly defined. TND has much less but still moreso of a personal side than TLD.

    Do we have to start including all the times he needed to avenge the obligatory sacrificial lambs in that as well?
  • Posts: 2,914
    Looking over the options...

    Bond's treatment of woman -- At its worst in the early 70s, but much improved since then, despite a few glitches along the way.

    The DB-5 is everywhere -- Certainly annoying. The Bond films should be making us fantasize over modern dream-cars, not shamelessly relying on nostalgia. Ultimately though this is a minor annoyance.

    The person in shades and behaving suspiciously is really the ally -- Corny but fun, and I don't know if it'll happen again.

    James Bond is dead...no we mean it this time -- I don't mind it too much. The character is unkillable by time and man, so having him die over and over again sort of makes sense. An allegory for Bond's regenerative staying power?

    This time the mission is personal... -- The winner. This trope has been humped to death by the recent Bond films. I would love for Bond 26's marketing tagline to be "This time it's impersonal!" There is a difference between Bond getting emotionally involved in a case and getting personally involved, but that has gotten blurred. This is the only trope that is actively harming the series and needs to be curtailed, so it gets the Klebbie.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    edited June 2020 Posts: 737
    mtm wrote: »
    In TMWTGG and Moonraker Bond is given the go ahead by M, he's not rogue in either situation.

    In MWTGG it's about as personal a mission as it could possibly be(!) and he's not working for the SIS, no. In Moonraker he's ordered off the case by the Minister and has to go on the mission unofficially.
    If either of those had happened in the last couple of films you'd probably be counting them! :)
    In Spectre he's given the go-ahead by the previous M, so that shouldn't count either ;)
    Not sure what you mean when you say he goes rogue in TLD? If you mean when he chooses not to shoot Pushkin or Kara, then that doesn't count because Bond is trusted to use his instincts.

    He defies his direct orders to kill both of them, yes. Jobo specified 'defying orders'. He knows Pushkin and doesn't believe he'd do it.

    Whether it's official or not, M knows what he is doing. And in TMWTGG he is officially given the mission as soon as he reports back that Scaramanga is involved in the Solex agitator business. In MR he ends up at Mi6's South American base, and is sent off again on a mission to find Drax.

    So no, neither example is anything like in LTK.

    If you are trying to claim disobeying orders in TLD is akin to Bond either 'going rogue' or being as personally involved as he is in the Craig era then you're grasping at straws.

    But I get your point overall. He's not always strictly on a mission. But clearly the Craig era is something else - culminating in NTTD.
  • edited June 2020 Posts: 1,009
    I won't vote here. These are things that have grown into a habit as the series has gone by, like the Bond villain sutupidity or No Mr. Bond I expect you to dine.
  • edited June 2020 Posts: 7,507
    mtm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I must be one of the few who doesnt mind the "this time its personal" as LTK would be one of my favourite Bonds.
    I' ll go with the 'DB5 is everywhere".


    Oh, I don´t think people have a problem with the idea itself. It´s just the tedius repetition that is bothering us. Starting with LTK, Bond has "gone rogue" or defied orders for personal reasons in some capacity in every film, except GE and TND. It´s getting a bit absurd by this point.

    He does it in TLD too. Golden Gun, Moonraker... I can't be bothered to go through them all, but isn't it just a part of the series? I don't see what's tedious about it. Conflict is the source of drama.
    Which films hit the top spots when Bond fans vote on it? Casino Royale and On Her Majesty's.


    When I said it "started with LTK" I was referring to the "going rogue" trope which is connected: Bond is so personally driven that he takes on the mission for himself and not as his duty.

    It sounds pretty good when you put it like that.

    I don't think he goes rogue in CR (disobeys a couple of orders and leaves the service, but no personal missions), QoS (he goes on the run for about a minute in the hotel before she basically gives him her blessing), Sf (not at all), and yes, he's rogue at the beginning of Spectre.

    It is never really explained why he chooses to investigate the ELLIPSIS clue in Casino Royale. But the fact is that he does even if M's orders are to go on holiday and "stick his head in the sand somewhere". What drives him? Is it to remedee his mistake? To show his worth as an agent? Or is it simply a case of moral responsibility? I don't know, but he obviously has to be quite driven in order to put his life on the line.

    In Skyfall his initial choice is to "stay dead", not reporting his whereabouts, leaving his old job and life in London behind. Only when he receives the news that MI6 is under attack does he decide to "report for duty". He could very easily have chosen not to. Why would he continue risking his life? Another case where his actions are decided by his personal drive and motives; first to stay away, then to return when his country needed him too.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited June 2020 Posts: 13,767
    Duty is key in the Craig Bond films.


    The DB5 is Bond's car and the most famous car in the world. That's part of it.

    Can be looked at as a staple like the PPK and the martini. Or not.
    Good point about the PPK. I hate when they try to modernize Bond's carry with the P99.
    But with the car, I'd rather they kept using more modern Astons instead of always using the DB5... interesting.
    To me the PPK will always have its place alongside bigger firearms when Bond needs it, like assaulting the villain's lair.

    I understand getting tired of the DB5, five films in a row. But on the other hand I wouldn't miss any Aston Martin
    spinning around 360° while firing left and right front-wing machine guns.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    I appreciate the attachment to the PPK, but it's a massively outdated sidearm. Bond should be carrying something more efficient. One of the nice details about the Craig era has been the use of other weapons such as the Sig Sauer. It makes much more tactical sense.

    Anyway, I'd have to go with this time it's personal for my vote on this round.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited June 2020 Posts: 7,546
    I appreciate the attachment to the PPK, but it's a massively outdated sidearm. Bond should be carrying something more efficient. One of the nice details about the Craig era has been the use of other weapons such as the Sig Sauer. It makes much more tactical sense.

    Anyway, I'd have to go with this time it's personal for my vote on this round.

    One thing that didn't seem to make a lot of sense to me, maybe you know more about it, is in Skyfall Q gives him what he says to be a "PPK/S 9mm", and I did a small amount of research on this, and I think I turned up that the PPK/S was developed specifically for the US market to adhere to size requirements? If so it wouldn't make much sense for Bond to be issued this specific gun, would it?

    Dug this up:
    https://www.crossbreedholsters.com/blog/walther-ppk-ppks/
    PPK/S, where the S stands for "Sport", was a response to a change in US Import regulations.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited June 2020 Posts: 6,275
    I say: James Bond is dead.

    No, no he's not.

    I also hated this in The Dark Knight Rises.
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