And the Klebbie goes to...Worst execution of a good idea page 147

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,340
    mtm wrote: »
    In TMWTGG and Moonraker Bond is given the go ahead by M, he's not rogue in either situation.

    In MWTGG it's about as personal a mission as it could possibly be(!) and he's not working for the SIS, no. In Moonraker he's ordered off the case by the Minister and has to go on the mission unofficially.
    If either of those had happened in the last couple of films you'd probably be counting them! :)
    In Spectre he's given the go-ahead by the previous M, so that shouldn't count either ;)
    Not sure what you mean when you say he goes rogue in TLD? If you mean when he chooses not to shoot Pushkin or Kara, then that doesn't count because Bond is trusted to use his instincts.

    He defies his direct orders to kill both of them, yes. Jobo specified 'defying orders'. He knows Pushkin and doesn't believe he'd do it.

    Whether it's official or not, M knows what he is doing.

    Which makes it the same as the opening of Spectre then (depending on which M you pick! :) ).
    And in TMWTGG he is officially given the mission as soon as he reports back that Scaramanga is involved in the Solex agitator business. In MR he ends up at Mi6's South American base, and is sent off again on a mission to find Drax.

    So again, just like Spectre!
    So no, neither example is anything like in LTK.

    If you are trying to claim disobeying orders in TLD is akin to Bond either 'going rogue' or being as personally involved as he is in the Craig era then you're grasping at straws.

    I didn't say it was him going rogue: I said it was him disobeying orders. As I said: that was one of the criteria which is apparently unacceptable and which no-one can bear.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,340
    jobo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I must be one of the few who doesnt mind the "this time its personal" as LTK would be one of my favourite Bonds.
    I' ll go with the 'DB5 is everywhere".


    Oh, I don´t think people have a problem with the idea itself. It´s just the tedius repetition that is bothering us. Starting with LTK, Bond has "gone rogue" or defied orders for personal reasons in some capacity in every film, except GE and TND. It´s getting a bit absurd by this point.

    He does it in TLD too. Golden Gun, Moonraker... I can't be bothered to go through them all, but isn't it just a part of the series? I don't see what's tedious about it. Conflict is the source of drama.
    Which films hit the top spots when Bond fans vote on it? Casino Royale and On Her Majesty's.


    When I said it "started with LTK" I was referring to the "going rogue" trope which is connected: Bond is so personally driven that he takes on the mission for himself and not as his duty.

    It sounds pretty good when you put it like that.

    I don't think he goes rogue in CR (disobeys a couple of orders and leaves the service, but no personal missions), QoS (he goes on the run for about a minute in the hotel before she basically gives him her blessing), Sf (not at all), and yes, he's rogue at the beginning of Spectre.

    It is never really explained why he chooses to investigate the ELLIPSIS clue in Casino Royale. But the fact is that he does even if M's orders are to go on holiday and "stick his head in the sand somewhere". What drives him? Is it to remedee his mistake? To show his worth as an agent? Or is it simply a case of moral responsibility? I don't know, but he obviously has to be quite driven in order to put his life on the line.

    Yeah that's a good point: I'd always just kind of accepted that. I guess it's partly to try to make up for his mistake but mostly because he just wants to do the job. He's just very pig-headed about it: like a dog with a bone.
    But where are we drawing the line with this 'personal' stuff? Is Bond doing things because his character and personality drives them to do them off-limits too? Are we after a sort of Bond robot?
    jobo wrote: »
    In Skyfall his initial choice is to "stay dead", not reporting his whereabouts, leaving his old job and life in London behind. Only when he receives the news that MI6 is under attack does he decide to "report for duty". He could very easily have chosen not to. Why would he continue risking his life? Another case where his actions are decided by his personal drive and motives; first to stay away, then to return when his country needed him too.

    Are we saying that's bad? I thought you were arguing for him being driven by nothing but his duty?
    jobo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I must be one of the few who doesnt mind the "this time its personal" as LTK would be one of my favourite Bonds.
    I' ll go with the 'DB5 is everywhere".


    Oh, I don´t think people have a problem with the idea itself. It´s just the tedius repetition that is bothering us. Starting with LTK, Bond has "gone rogue" or defied orders for personal reasons in some capacity in every film, except GE and TND. It´s getting a bit absurd by this point.

    He does it in TLD too. Golden Gun, Moonraker... I can't be bothered to go through them all, but isn't it just a part of the series? I don't see what's tedious about it. Conflict is the source of drama.
    Which films hit the top spots when Bond fans vote on it? Casino Royale and On Her Majesty's.


    When I said it "started with LTK" I was referring to the "going rogue" trope which is connected: Bond is so personally driven that he takes on the mission for himself and not as his duty.

    If we really want a Bond that is written where his own personal instincts and feelings don't drive him at all but he's just there to carry out M's orders, then I wouldn't expect to see any good actors taking on the role in future.
    I appreciate the attachment to the PPK, but it's a massively outdated sidearm. Bond should be carrying something more efficient. One of the nice details about the Craig era has been the use of other weapons such as the Sig Sauer. It makes much more tactical sense.

    Anyway, I'd have to go with this time it's personal for my vote on this round.

    Yeah I don't know anything about guns but I know it looks pretty old and out of date. But I guess that's Bond movies: it looks good so it works.


  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,400
    I see the "this time it's personal" is generating lots of discussion. If I was going to recap the adventures where Bond or another member of Mi6 has an attachment to the villain or the villain's plot.
    1. LTK his licence is revoked as he goes on full on revenge
    2. GE he's battling a former double-0
    3. TND Bond has a former flame that he apparently lived with and walked out on that is now married to the villain of the piece.
    4. TWINE M is friends with the father of the villain, Bond gets sucked in to the personal life of the villain
    5. DAD Bond is captive and is dis-owned by his service and the Americans join in the manhunt until they stop and help him finish his mission
    6. CR Bond's first mission he is told to leave the mission as it's becoming personal and he isn't thinking straight but then he rejoins.
    7. QOS M first revokes his credit cards and passports. Later in the film she puts Bond in handcuffs. He escapes and M sanctions his escape. He's blinded by his lust for revenge for Vesper's death
    8. SF M has an agent that she discarded come back to attack her. Bond is "killed" while on a mission. He ages in the few weeks or months he's out of action. Returns with 6 pack abs but can't do pull ups.
    9. SP M (who was killed in the previous mission) sends Bond to chase down a lead from the Silva affair? Bond discovers his step brother is the villain of the film. Bond settles down at the end of the movie
    10. NTTD Bond is retired from the service and his relationship from the previous film is broken off. His old friend who he hasn't seen in 12 years comes out to beg him to return to action

    He has been disavowed, killed, missing, or resigned from the force for many of the last 20 years of the series. Every mission seems to have a tie to someone in Mi6 or to Bond himself. Must be a small world? Or maybe Bond is well connected to shady characters. I hope this clarifies my personal trope nomination.
  • MooseWithFleasMooseWithFleas Philadelphia
    Posts: 3,368
    Gotta be The Mission is personal for me.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    echo wrote: »
    I say: James Bond is dead.

    No, no he's not.

    I also hated this in The Dark Knight Rises.

    I wonder if anyone walked out of the theatre after the pts in 1967, exclaiming in disgust: " I can t believe it! They actually killed him! I am done with this series! Daaamn!!!"
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,340
    echo wrote: »
    I say: James Bond is dead.

    No, no he's not.

    I also hated this in The Dark Knight Rises.

    I wonder if anyone walked out of the theatre after the pts in 1967, exclaiming in disgust: " I can t believe it! They actually killed him! I am done with this series! Daaamn!!!"

    Ha! That one really has only happened twice, hasn't it?
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    'This time the mission is personal' a no brainer as far as i'm concerned.

    They may not be the best Bond films but watching GE and TND the other day, i realised how much i missed the straightforward Bond on a mission films.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited June 2020 Posts: 4,247
    'This time the mission is personal' a no brainer as far as i'm concerned.

    They may not be the best Bond films but watching GE and TND the other day, i realised how much i missed the straightforward Bond on a mission films.

    I couldn't agree more....EON might just have forgotten that what makes Bond films Adventures, is Bond taking his London mission briefing from M and going to the Far Edge of World. The fact that we don't see Mi6 until the film's end, increases the Tense-Mission feel....Bond is far away from home, he's alone.

    I just hope this returns in Bond 26.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    echo wrote: »
    I say: James Bond is dead.

    No, no he's not.

    I also hated this in The Dark Knight Rises.

    I wonder if anyone walked out of the theatre after the pts in 1967, exclaiming in disgust: " I can t believe it! They actually killed him! I am done with this series! Daaamn!!!"

    Maybe but I doubt anyone who'd seen the trailers or commercials for it did.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited June 2020 Posts: 8,205
    I appreciate the attachment to the PPK, but it's a massively outdated sidearm. Bond should be carrying something more efficient. One of the nice details about the Craig era has been the use of other weapons such as the Sig Sauer. It makes much more tactical sense.

    Anyway, I'd have to go with this time it's personal for my vote on this round.

    One thing that didn't seem to make a lot of sense to me, maybe you know more about it, is in Skyfall Q gives him what he says to be a "PPK/S 9mm", and I did a small amount of research on this, and I think I turned up that the PPK/S was developed specifically for the US market to adhere to size requirements? If so it wouldn't make much sense for Bond to be issued this specific gun, would it?

    Dug this up:
    https://www.crossbreedholsters.com/blog/walther-ppk-ppks/
    PPK/S, where the S stands for "Sport", was a response to a change in US Import regulations.

    I'm not quite up to date with recent regulations as its been a while since I've owned a weapon (I was more of a rifle person anyway; I had a Walther G22 at one point, which I loved, but the declaration from a decade ago that bullpup rifles were restricted made it necessary for it to be gotten rid of), but a lot of what Bond uses is determined by Walther rather than the producers I think, so I guess sense might not have been any sort of factor. If Walther wanted to show off the PPK/s then that's what they would have wanted used in the film. Alternately, the pistol's slightly larger size might have been a deciding factor when they spoke with production and realised that it was going to be displayed as being fitted with a fingerprint/palm reader.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,340
    The only time I’ve been near a PPK is when we going through my grandad’s things after he passed away and found he owned a deactivated one. Only issue was it had a carved grip with lots of Nazi eagles and swastikas on! Not sure I want to know who he took that off! :)
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,400
    The Dove, not wishing to create a trope in how these awards are handed out swings down from the scaffolding and delivers the Klebbie for the worst trope in the Bond series to...This time the mission is personal which received 22 votes from the academy members!

    The rest of the voting looks like this:
    • the DB5 is everywhere received 4 votes
    • The ally is looking like the enemy received 2 votes
    • Bond is dead...oh wait no he's not received 1 vote
    • Bond treatment of women receiving no votes...though I think this was more due to my mistaking it as a trope! :)

    Now on to the next Klebbie and this one might be a tough one! It's time for us to consider worst director! Over the years there has been stellar work done but some of the entries well lets just say a better director may have elevated the material. Our nominees are:
    • Lee Tamahori for Die Another Day
    • Marc Forster for Quantum of Solace
    • Roger Spotiswoode for Tomorrow Never Dies
    • Guy Hamilton for The Man with The Golden Gun
    • Sam Mendes for Spectre

    Interesting that 2 of our worst nominees were nominated for best director too! Remember we are considering their director skills not the film as a whole. So while we may say DAD has a ridiculous plot that shouldn't be worn by the director.

    Time for the academy to vote...who deserves the kick to the shins!
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,575
    Lee Tamahori for the easy win.
  • Posts: 7,407
    Lee Tamahori, without a shadow of a doubt!
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    Yes, I think Lee Tamahori is the clear winner here - although I'm probably a tad biased by the knowledge that he believes in the code-name nonsense.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited June 2020 Posts: 7,108
    Neither Spottiswoode nor Forster could be taken into consideration here. Hamilton for TMWTGG is also rather harsh. DAF would be a more logical nominee I'd say.

    I'd agree both Tamahori for DAD and Mendes for SP are the bottom two in this regard though. Mendes, for all his prententiousness, is not a bad director. Some shots in SP are handsome, even though the movie is poor.

    I think DAD is more enjoyable than SP overall, but DAD is single-handedly ruined by its director though. So the award must go to Tamahori here.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Tamahori showed no restraint and was like a child that went wild in the toy store (with seemingly little to no understanding of the central character). Tamahori for the win (loss?).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,340
    thedove wrote: »
    [*] Bond treatment of women receiving no votes...though I think this was more due to my mistaking it as a trope! :)

    I think I might ask for a recount on that one! :)
  • Posts: 7,507
    My choice would have been Michael Apted. I think his poor direction is the main reason why the potentialy quite interessting story of TWINE turns out to be such a boring soap opera.

    Given the nominees, I will regrettably have to go with what I expect will be the mainstream answer, and vote for Lee Tamahori.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,546
    Lee Tamahori
  • R1s1ngs0nR1s1ngs0n France
    Posts: 2,144
    Forster
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,157
    Tamahori, clearly.
  • Posts: 928
    Lee Tamahori. Bond is not xXx.
  • Posts: 631
    Lee Tamahori. The fencing scene is well directed, but the rest ...
  • edited June 2020 Posts: 3,566
    Two "No Contests" in a row? Oh, dear. Tamahori for the kick in the shins, @thedove for the wake-up call. Let's have something a little more controversial next time around if you please. How about "Least Useful Gadget"? I'd vote for the magnetic wrist watch in LALD. It was totally useless for getting Bond off of the crocodile-infested island... and the one time it WAS useful, for cutting the ropes binding Bond's wrists at the end of the film, he had to use it it in a fashion that THE AUDIENCE HADN'T EVEN BEEN TOLD IT WAS DESIGNED FOR! That's clearly some kinda cheat if not totally a useless item...
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,546
    Two "No Contests" in a row? Oh, dear. Tamahori for the kick in the shins, @thedove for the wake-up call. Let's have something a little more controversial next time around if you please. How about "Least Useful Gadget"? I'd vote for the magnetic wrist watch in LALD. It was totally useless for getting Bond off of the crocodile-infested island... and the one time it WAS useful, for cutting the ropes binding Bond's wrists at the end of the film, he had to use it it in a fashion that THE AUDIENCE HADN'T EVEN BEEN TOLD IT WAS DESIGNED FOR! That's clearly some kinda cheat if not totally a useless item...

    I was just thinking "Least Useful Gadget" would be a great category, but couldn't think of any good nominations. ;P Agree this would be a good one!
  • Posts: 5,989
    Myt vote goes to Mrc Forster, for his inability to film an understandable actyion sequence. I still don't know how Bond managed to get rid of the plane and helicopter, the boat chase has been the subject of a very animated thread here, the car chase at the beginning is close to incomprehensible. Too bad, because he had a good script to work with. But he blew it.

    Runner-up is Lee Tamahori : Bullet time doesn't belong in a Bond movie.
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 4,474
    It was Tamahori's idea to do the tsunami scene with so much cgi. This is already enough to vote for him.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Two "No Contests" in a row? Oh, dear. Tamahori for the kick in the shins, @thedove for the wake-up call. Let's have something a little more controversial next time around if you please. How about "Least Useful Gadget"? I'd vote for the magnetic wrist watch in LALD. It was totally useless for getting Bond off of the crocodile-infested island... and the one time it WAS useful, for cutting the ropes binding Bond's wrists at the end of the film, he had to use it it in a fashion that THE AUDIENCE HADN'T EVEN BEEN TOLD IT WAS DESIGNED FOR! That's clearly some kinda cheat if not totally a useless item...


    So... another "no contest" then? ;)
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,546
    Gerard wrote: »
    Myt vote goes to Mrc Forster, for his inability to film an understandable actyion sequence. I still don't know how Bond managed to get rid of the plane and helicopter, the boat chase has been the subject of a very animated thread here, the car chase at the beginning is close to incomprehensible. Too bad, because he had a good script to work with. But he blew it.

    Runner-up is Lee Tamahori : Bullet time doesn't belong in a Bond movie.

    Strange, found them all pretty comprehensible. But makes sense why people wouldn’t like the editing.
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