And the Klebbie goes to...Worst execution of a good idea page 147

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    I have to concur with @Revelator regarding Tamahori. If this were about deciding the most controversial direction, then I think Tamahori would win that out for many counts. Tamahori may be guilty of turning Brosnan's last film into a full fledged cartoon, but at least his direction has some flair to it and he got the best performance out of Brosnan in his entire tenure.

    I vote Roger Spottiswoode. Now there's a guy who for me made what felt like the most generic Bond installment in the franchise. For a film so formulaic, it desperately needed a director that can at least do something with style. John Woo would have made that film SING in spite of its adherence to formula. The only contribution I like from Spottiswoode is changing the briefing from M's office to M's transportation. It's at least a slight on the formula, but that's all I can give him.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,129
    If Michael Apted was on the list (and he should be ;) ) then he would get my vote. Whilst he has a good resume outside of Bond, TWINE is a big mess of a movie.
    However as to those nominated, I'll go with Marc Forster for QOS. His quick cuts and awful editing style leave me annoyed that the follow up to one of the best Bond films in the series is just a waste. It's always hard to follow up a great Bond with another one. But QOS doesn't even get close to the style and all round greatness of CR.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    It's a strange one because there are flourishes in QoS which are great - the whole Toscs sequence and shootout in the restaurant for example. It just struggles to be fun, and loses a Bondian touch overall. The allusions to TSWLM dotted throughout just accentuate the lack of fun.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    Benny wrote: »
    If Michael Apted was on the list (and he should be ;) ) then he would get my vote. Whilst he has a good resume outside of Bond, TWINE is a big mess of a movie.
    However as to those nominated, I'll go with Marc Forster for QOS. His quick cuts and awful editing style leave me annoyed that the follow up to one of the best Bond films in the series is just a waste. It's always hard to follow up a great Bond with another one. But QOS doesn't even get close to the style and all round greatness of CR.

    Wholeheartedly agree. Films like Die Another Day are plain bad and you expect it after The World Is Not Enough, but Quantum of Solace was the most disappointing Bond film following on from the high of Casino Royaleand I recall that emotion when I first saw it in the cinema.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Another vote for Tamahori that wants to be a vote for Apted.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,400
    I see that many feel Apted should be in the category. Interesting cause he was on the cusp. Based on the votes it appears that Mendes shouldn't be on this list which is interesting cause many complain of the mess of film and I think Mendes has some fingerprints on the complaints.

    Ah well as our man said while in Nassau..."You can't win them all." ;)
  • Posts: 1,916
    The second I saw the title of this one I knew who would be the winner. I guess I have to go with Tamahori of the nominees. Not a DAD hater at all despite its evident deficiencies. He suggested the codename theory, which would be my pet peeve with him.

    Were he a nominee, I'd also go with Apted. I respect his work outside of Bond but the mess that TWINE is includes it has not only the least interesting action but no suspense, soapy drama, an easily duped Bond and M, an underdeveloped villain in Renard and no other interesting supporting characters - Mr. Gold, anybody.

    Somebody else above mentioned John Glen for AVTAK and I'd place him on the nominee list too. By far his worst film in that the tone is all over the place, veering from comedy one moment to people being violently killed the next. From a unique female villain to a screaming main Bond girl.

    The Hamilton comments made me ponder what if he'd have stayed as the director of TSWLM. His other four efforts were mostly smaller-scale and not epic in scope the way Spy would be. It would've been interesting to see what he could've done on that level.

  • Posts: 2,914
    I have to concur with @Revelator regarding Tamahori. If this were about deciding the most controversial direction, then I think Tamahori would win that out for many counts. Tamahori may be guilty of turning Brosnan's last film into a full fledged cartoon, but at least his direction has some flair to it and he got the best performance out of Brosnan in his entire tenure.

    Well said Sir! I also found Spottiswoode's direction generic and lacking in flair. Competent but flavorless. I'm tempted to say that's what you get when you hire the director of Stop! Or My Mom Will Shoot but Spottiswoode was an editor for Peckinpah and could have done better. At least the action scenes are coherent. What John Woo would have done with the film is mouthwatering to imagine. A much-needed injection of style that would have stood out all the more in a profoundly formulaic film.

    I know some folks have nominated Forster, but while QoS's opening car chase is indeed abominable, it's the only truly terrible part of the film, and blame for that sequence can be shared with the editor and assistant director. Otherwise Forster can take some credit for salvaging a film that could have been an outright disaster. The result is still quite flawed, but despite having the reputation of a middlebrow drama director Forster avoided the loginess of TWINE and SP--two other films by directors with similar reputations.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Sam Mendes for Spectre. His heart wasn't into it and it shows.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    It's interesting to read the varying thoughts about what a director actually does and is responsible for, as well as how we should judge it when a film is generally not well received.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited June 2020 Posts: 7,546
    It's interesting to read the varying thoughts about what a director actually does and is responsible for, as well as how we should judge it when a film is generally not well received.

    I had to ask a friend who's a director, what precisely is the role of the director, and they told me, at it's most rudimentary level, it is to direct the actors.

    It's interesting too, because the role of the Director has evolved dramatically over time, I think, into writing and holding a lot of the creative vision (a la Nolan, etc). We're in a very Director-driven era for film compared to the past, when the film industry was much more Studio/Producer driven (in the past you'd look forward to the next Universal picture, nowadays you look forward to the next Christopher Nolan picture, to keep using the example).

    Basically it seems like the role of the director has seeped over into a lot of other creative roles in making a film (writing, cinematography, etc). Directors like Nolan, if absolutely anything goes wrong with the film, you can basically blame him, lol. Similarly for Spectre, I was always upset with Newman that he basically reused the score from Skyfall, but then I was told that it was a Mendes decision. You can't even blame the composer for the score these days! That obviously differs a bit for these Bond films, which are tied to a more golden-age of film by having the Producers drive the productions (as mentioned above), and it does make it a bit harder to pinpoint blame when the final product isn't up to snuff.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited June 2020 Posts: 8,205
    It's interesting to read the varying thoughts about what a director actually does and is responsible for, as well as how we should judge it when a film is generally not well received.

    I had to ask a friend who's a director, what precisely is the role of the director, and they told me, at it's most rudimentary level, it is to direct the actors.

    It's interesting too, because the role of the Director has evolved dramatically over time, I think, into writing and holding a lot of the creative vision (a la Nolan, etc). We're in a very Director-driven era for film compared to the past, when the film industry was much more Studio/Producer driven (in the past you'd look forward to the next Universal picture, nowadays you look forward to the next Christopher Nolan picture, to keep using the example).

    Basically it seems like the role of the director has seeped over into a lot of other creative roles in making a film (writing, cinematography, etc). Directors like Nolan, if absolutely anything goes wrong with the film, you can basically blame him, lol. Similarly for Spectre, I was always upset with Newman that he basically reused the score from Skyfall, but then I was told that it was a Mendes decision. You can't even blame the composer for the score these days! That obviously differs a bit for these Bond films, which are tied to a more golden-age of film by having the Producers drive the productions (as mentioned above), and it does make it a bit harder to pinpoint blame when the final product isn't up to snuff.

    All good points, and your friend is fundamentally right. It always comes down to personal preference, as most things do. But it's true nowadays that more directors are involved in almost all creative aspects and have a majority share of responsibility in their failures as well as their successes, which is why Tamahori is an easy pick for me here - and that's before you consider the basic tonal and storytelling problems that his film has.

    But nonetheless, it's interesting to read everyone's thoughts on it. I can only judge based on my own experiences from working with various directors on both good and bad sets; some are clued in and very totalitarian in the sense that they want to be involved in everything; others just work with the actors and the script and leave the rest to the respective departments, only getting involved if they really don't like something.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,019
    I'm with Benny and Octopussy regarding Michael Apted. While I still think that TWINE is not entirely as bad as DAD, it is considerably more convoluted and borderline boring.

    Among the official contenders, I'm kind of undecided between Tamahori, who's responsible for the worst Bond movie ever and who allowed (or even instigated) that CGI crap, and Marc Forster, who allowed (or ordered) his editor to butcher an otherwise decent movie into a sometimes indigestible mess of snippets. It could have been good, in spite of the multiple script problems.

    OK, just to solve this, I vote for (against!) Tamahori, since his movie overall turned out far worse than Forster's.
  • Posts: 5,989
    About Spottiswoode : I know that TND has problems, but I had high hopes for him, on account of his work on Under Fire. And the movie wasn't that bad. At least, not DAD bad.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,340
    I have to concur with @Revelator regarding Tamahori. If this were about deciding the most controversial direction, then I think Tamahori would win that out for many counts. Tamahori may be guilty of turning Brosnan's last film into a full fledged cartoon, but at least his direction has some flair to it and he got the best performance out of Brosnan in his entire tenure.

    I vote Roger Spottiswoode. Now there's a guy who for me made what felt like the most generic Bond installment in the franchise. For a film so formulaic, it desperately needed a director that can at least do something with style. John Woo would have made that film SING in spite of its adherence to formula. The only contribution I like from Spottiswoode is changing the briefing from M's office to M's transportation. It's at least a slight on the formula, but that's all I can give him.

    But it still turns out quite fun and punchy, I'd say. I couldn't say he did the worst job: completely capable if not outstanding.

    Revelator wrote: »
    I have to concur with @Revelator regarding Tamahori. If this were about deciding the most controversial direction, then I think Tamahori would win that out for many counts. Tamahori may be guilty of turning Brosnan's last film into a full fledged cartoon, but at least his direction has some flair to it and he got the best performance out of Brosnan in his entire tenure.

    Well said Sir! I also found Spottiswoode's direction generic and lacking in flair. Competent but flavorless. I'm tempted to say that's what you get when you hire the director of Stop! Or My Mom Will Shoot but Spottiswoode was an editor for Peckinpah and could have done better. At least the action scenes are coherent. What John Woo would have done with the film is mouthwatering to imagine. A much-needed injection of style that would have stood out all the more in a profoundly formulaic film.

    Yeah I watched MI2 for the first time in ages a week or two ago, and although it is a load of overblown nonsense I can't deny I would be intrigued to see a Bond film handled like that. It certainly would have had style and flavour to it in a way that none of the 90s Bond films did. I suspect Pierce would have been hilarious in it :)
    It did make me look forward to Zimmer's Bond score though: once you've kind of tuned your brain into it he does do a great job with that.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,340
    It's interesting to read the varying thoughts about what a director actually does and is responsible for, as well as how we should judge it when a film is generally not well received.

    I had to ask a friend who's a director, what precisely is the role of the director, and they told me, at it's most rudimentary level, it is to direct the actors.

    It's interesting too, because the role of the Director has evolved dramatically over time, I think, into writing and holding a lot of the creative vision (a la Nolan, etc). We're in a very Director-driven era for film compared to the past, when the film industry was much more Studio/Producer driven (in the past you'd look forward to the next Universal picture, nowadays you look forward to the next Christopher Nolan picture, to keep using the example).

    Basically it seems like the role of the director has seeped over into a lot of other creative roles in making a film (writing, cinematography, etc). Directors like Nolan, if absolutely anything goes wrong with the film, you can basically blame him, lol. Similarly for Spectre, I was always upset with Newman that he basically reused the score from Skyfall, but then I was told that it was a Mendes decision. You can't even blame the composer for the score these days! That obviously differs a bit for these Bond films, which are tied to a more golden-age of film by having the Producers drive the productions (as mentioned above), and it does make it a bit harder to pinpoint blame when the final product isn't up to snuff.

    Yeah it's interesting because a friend of mine directs TV ads, and basically there he gets given the script and has to pitch his approach to it to the producers: he gives references from other films and TV as to what he intends to do with it. And you can imagine there's an awful lot of scope from taking the written word and then deciding what to accentuate, what to dial down, what to make funny, what to overplay, what to make arch, what to make naturalistic etc. For instance if you take a lot of the script of Moonraker, do Jaws' scenes seem funny in the written word? In a way you just have to read the novelisations of TSWLM and MR to see how a very similar script could be handled in a much more serious way. Those are the sort of choices a director makes I think.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited June 2020 Posts: 8,179
    In Trek fandom’s view, “Spock’s Brain” is often cited as the worst episode ever. I agree that it’s bad, but it’s not the worst. I give that to “The Alternative Factor”. The only reason “Spock’s Brain” gets so much more flack is because it is memorably bad, whereas “The Alternative Factor” is just plain forgettably bad in a way that’s utterly dull on all accounts.

    I feel there’s a parallel to that regarding Bond famdom’s view if DAD.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,604
    In Trek fandom’s view, “Spock’s Brain” is often cited as the worst episode ever. I agree that it’s bad, but it’s not the worst. I give that to “The Alternative Factor”. The only reason “Spock’s Brain” gets so much more flack is because it is memorably bad, whereas “The Alternative Factor” is just plain forgettably bad in a way that’s utterly dull on all accounts.

    I feel there’s a parallel to that regarding Bond famdom’s view if DAD.

    I think it goes by generations, what is the worst Bond movie. Some standout more than most.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,340
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    In Trek fandom’s view, “Spock’s Brain” is often cited as the worst episode ever. I agree that it’s bad, but it’s not the worst. I give that to “The Alternative Factor”. The only reason “Spock’s Brain” gets so much more flack is because it is memorably bad, whereas “The Alternative Factor” is just plain forgettably bad in a way that’s utterly dull on all accounts.

    I feel there’s a parallel to that regarding Bond famdom’s view if DAD.

    I think it goes by generations, what is the worst Bond movie. Some standout more than most.

    No, Generations is a movie, not a Trek TV episode ;)
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,108
    Really don't get the hate for Forster and Spottiswoode.

    Marc Forster has probably made the most aesthetical Bond film, a mixture of 007 with the subtlety of European art house. It's a magnificent gem of a Bond film. While Roger Spottiswoode provides his Bond film with a slick style, a well-paced rythm and excellent stunt work.

    Compare that to the bored laziness of Sam Mendes's SP or the epileptic shenanigans of Lee Tamahori's DAD and they shouldn't even be in the same sentence.

    And I know neither Forster nor Spottiswoode wrote their respective films but I can't withhold myself from praising their relevant subject matters. Big corporations that literally dry out a country for their own power and profit on one hand, and news framing and media manipulation on the other. Underrated milestones in the Babs Age.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,340
    No there’s not much wrong with the direction of Spectre. The overall story is the weak point, but there aren’t any jarring moments or anything that doesn’t make sense tonally as there is in QoS.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    My issue with Spottiswoode is that he just seems like a very plain “point and shoot” director without any of the flair his predecessors and successors displayed, and that reflects in the film that feels less Bondian and more like a generic American blockbuster production. To me that’s a big deal. Just looking at his resume of films makes me wonder what it was EON saw in him that said “this guy can direct Bond”.

    I remember a quote by Robert Downey Jr where he referred to an earlier Spottiswoode film Air America as “Air Generica”. Funnily, that movie was shot by Roger Deakins, but you wouldn’t guess it looking at that film.

    Is DAD haphazard? Yes. But it at least has some flair to it that I can grasp and thats a crucial element for a Bond film. I don’t get that out of TND.
  • Posts: 7,507
    mtm wrote: »
    No there’s not much wrong with the direction of Spectre. The overall story is the weak point, but there aren’t any jarring moments or anything that doesn’t make sense tonally as there is in QoS.

    I understand very well why people are concerned with SP's plot. However, the direction us really not that bad. There are a few issues with pacing and tone, but for the most part the film is well told and beautifuly shot.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,340
    Yeah, probably the biggest directorial misstep would be choosing to play the car chase as light, but even then at that point of the film I can see why they thought it's perhaps not time for an ultra-serious action scene (compare to the Eiffel tower chase in AVTAK or other first act action scenes where the stakes aren't the highest), and the tension does build a little towards the end, and the 'Q finally coming through' gag is a satisfying one. Everything is well-handled in it.

    Looking at that PTS and calling it 'lazy' I find rather baffling.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    I wouldn’t call Mendes lazy either. He tried, he just missed the mark big time, which was doubly disappointing after the rather excellent SF.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I too would have voted Apted if he were on the list. he should have been there instead of Forster, who is a genius.

    Of the nominated, it is between Tamahori and Spottiswoode. Tamahori mostly for his stupid ideas that didn t make it into the film, thankfully. As the films turned out, I guess I will hand it to Spottiswoode, even though I don t dislike TND.
  • Posts: 7,407
    Gerard wrote: »
    About Spottiswoode : I know that TND has problems, but I had high hopes for him, on account of his work on Under Fire. And the movie wasn't that bad. At least, not DAD bad.

    He worked with Sam Peckinpah too, which is probably where the slow-mo shots came from on the finale!!
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    It's hard to imagine what issue someone would have with Sam's directing.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    Spottiswoode's direction resulted in a film that was the closest the Brosnan era came to having a solid John Glen-style entry. It's very workmanlike but the thing about that is that it works.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    Funnily TND was my very first Bond film when I was 11 years old, and it turned me off from wanting to see more Bond films.
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